'Contact' - NOW I get it!

[horsemad]

I have always struggled to get the right contact when riding my horse. Every riding instructor I've had has told me to shorten the reins and take up more of a contact. But when I tried to do this, Cindy would just come to a standstill. I felt like I was preventing her from moving forwards, so I would loosen the reins, and we would be back to where we started...Cindy slopping along without carrying herself properly, and me being tipped forwards because her neck was stretched out.....

This has gone on for about 3 years....until about a month ago. Another riding instructor said again about shortening the reins and absolutely INSISTING Cindy moves forward with the stronger contact. So I shortened my reins, Cindy stopped....but this time I used my legs and whip more firmly...and she did step forwards, although very reluctantly.

I've been continuing with this over the past month or so, and I was starting to see some improvement - Cindy would go forward now with the stronger contact - and I even discovered she could do a lovely bouncy walk, instead of her usual plod :) But she was still resisting and fighting with me - every time I took up the contact in trot, I got a bouncy, half trot, half canter, swishing tail and ears back routine - not a happy girl at all. And although she did settle into it, she still felt quite 'heavy' most of the time - like she was pulling against me. This really didn't feel right to me - its like I was using force with her, and that goes against my whole ethos. But I now think that this is something I had to do initially to get Cindy to co-operate....

Over the last week or so, when I've taken up the contact, Cindy hasn't 'argued' with me....she seems to be accepting it much better. And as a result, I feel like I'm riding a different horse - she feels so light and 'pliable' - I didn't know she could circle like that :) And I think I now understand 'elastic' contact - there was no tension in the reins this time and it felt like we were working together, instead of her pulling against me.

I feel like I have a different horse because of this - I always new I had a great horse, now I know I've got an amazing horse :) It is just that its taken me 3 years to learn how to ride her :o

Don't you just love those 'eureka' moments in riding? :D

[LittleD]

This is exactly my problem - Perhaps as someone who has recently got over this you could explain the aids to me, elastic contact just completely eludes me at the moment, as you said strong contact just seems like a fight and being rough!!! Well done for getting there!

[Yann]

Well done:) I went through a similar but less difficult process with Rio, it's lovely when you suddenly discover what they are really capable of.

[horsemad]

Thanks Yann, yes it is a fantastic feeling :)

LittleD - Yes, I know exactly what you mean about how it feels you are being rough with your horse. You want to be gentle with your hands and not pull on the horse's mouth - so it seems wrong to take up a stronger contact and feel you are using force. And then, with my horse at least, I had to use yet more 'force' to make her move forward with the strong contact - she wouldn't do this unless she was bullied into it. All this goes against how I want to ride - I want to be gentle and ask her nicely, it upsets me to have to bully her. The good thing is that now she is co-operating much better, so now I can ask nicely and she (mostly!) does what she is told without arguing :)

I'm not sure what advice to give - it maybe depends on what experience your horse has had. In my case, I knew Cindy had been well schooled and was perfectly capable of going on the bit, but just chose not to. :rolleyes: She's a very smart girl really - why should she bother putting any effort in if she can get away with plodding about?

So this 'bullying' tactic worked for her since I knew she was just ignoring my aids - maybe you would use a different approach for teaching a horse to accept a contact for the first time? Maybe more experienced riders on this board can help?

[cvb]

To get this soft elastic feel, the horse has to soften his jaw to the bit. Now horses are naturally "into pressure" animals (a survival trait), so often we get into this lean-lean cycle.

(Imagine two people holding hands and leaning back into the "contact" - if one lets go, the other falls over - i.e. they are in balance, but its not "self-carriage").

when horsemad first took up the contact, she got resistance. The horse backed off and reacted as if she was asking her to stop. Then she added her leg to say - nope, I DO mean go forward into this contact. And initially still got resistance. This could be the horse trying to find a way to go that fit with the contact. Now it sounds like she has the horse softening. This initial resistance can relate to the horse having to develop the balance and muscles to work the new way, and it can be quite tiring for them - which can add to the pulling and fussing.

Ideally you wouldn't have to do it this way, as you would start from a long low novice outline and just ask for more work. But most of us don't get to experience that, and have to do "remedial" work to get there (i.e. to counter what has been going wrong before).

As a test, in halt, close your fingers around the rein and hold. Do it evenly and with both reins, and don't pull back. Just close and hold and wait.

What happens ? You may find you need to take a slightly shorter rein than you are used to. As you wait, do a body check - check you are soft and there is no tenseness or tightness anywhere - especially in bum, hips, elbows, shoulders. Check your upper arms are hanging softly next to your body. Check your legs are long and weight into stirrup. Check you are sitting tall through your back. if you know Pilates, zip, and breathe :D

Now - you horse should give to the bit at some stage. At the first sign of this, lighten the contact, relax the hold, and walk on. (again, don't "give" the rein by moving it forwards, just soften and lighten it ;) ).

if you try this again, you should find you have to wait less time. Now the next stage is to work on keeping this softness through the halt-walk transition and into the walk. Not as easy as it sounds, but at least now you know what you are looking for :D You can also ask for this softness from the ground - but its not so easy to feel and reeward as quickly as you need to.

N.B. the horse should still be working leg into hand, so you are not asking them to back off the contact, just soften to the hand.

[Nickie]

I was told this excersise to get the idea of what it feels like to have an elastic contact

get an old pickle jar lid - put two small holes in it in the middle and put about a foot of string doubled back and tied through them so you have a loop of string each side of the lid.

Its an old childs game where you have to spin the disk in the middle by pulling the string getting the jarlid to rotate in the middle if that makes any sense.

You can speed the lid up or slow it down and completely stop it with the right contact - anything else and it wont work - the pulling and pushing motion on your hands feels very like the contact on a horses mouth that you should expect from a good contact.

I've had moments where i've got the feeling but it goes after a second or two - but practice makes perfect!

[horsemad]

cvb - you have a great way of explaining things :) It all makes perfect sense when you put it like that. The thing that I find really difficult is trying to stay relaxed and maintain my position when Cindy pulls against me. I find it impossible to have a relaxed arm position when she does this - if I relax, my arms get pulled forward, and I've lost the contact.

Some time ago, I did try that technique of holding the contact at halt with Cindy, but she protested even more at that - she just went backwards and practically sat down at one stage. :eek: Far too stressful for both of us so I quickly gave that up! I don't know if I was doing something wrong, or if it was just Cindy's way of protesting.

Nickie - thats a very novel idea :) Anything that helps get that feel has to be worth a go!

[*MiRi*]

well done you!!

i wish i could do that...get a good contact! somehow my hands are to loose on the reins! lol i think the same as you...when i shorten the reins and tighten my fingers i think i am restriting the movement too! :p

xox

[cvb]

horsemad, the backing can be an evasion - or simply an attempt to work out what you are asking - i.e. they think you are asking for "reinback" not "soften". I think that if I got that response I would probably go back to single rein yields instead. Hold with one rein, have the other completely loose so they can turn into the yield - don't ask for a big turn to start with, and reward the "try". That "explains" the concept of yield to them.

Re: The challenge "to stay relaxed and maintain my position when Cindy pulls against me"

At a clinic I was at last year, Peggy Cummings did some people-to-people exercises which really highlighted things to me. Recruiting the core muscles (from Pilates) doesn't make the person's body LOOK any different, but the difference in the rein-feel and in their stability is significant.

[carrimclaren]

Horsemad, you've just made my day :D What you described in your first post is exactly what i'm going through. It's starting to come a little the more she softens but got what a long road !

Know how you feel about the leaning, my mare was terrible but it wasn't her fault. Before i bought her she'd been turned out for a year and had only been back in part time work for 3 months when i got her. All her muscle tone was wrong, her back end was skinny with no muscle tone and she had some sort of old injury where she was dragging her feet. After 10 months of happy hacking and blodging along in the school we now have a medium fitness level, a filled out bottom and a mare who's much happier (although a bit fizzier as well) :p Hence the reason for the last 2-3 months ive been trying to get her working properly as i've been learning along with her. She's gradually starting to come although i still have problems some days where we have an arguement.

Am def. going to try Cvb's techniques as i've also had the going backwards, sideways, trying to go up etc. (although not recently to be honest). But by the sounds of it that was me confusing her maybe.

[DITZ]

Also starting to get my head round this too. Did xc at the weekend and DavidH had me riding on a much shorter rein than I'm used to. Practiced it the following day and was surprised at the elevation it produced but he did get tense with it. Did it again last night and went backwards a few times as he thought I wanted a rein back but got there in the end. Still at the stage though where he feels really heavy in my hand. I rewarded him with a release when he did soften and I assume he will get the idea eventually?

[cvb]

Ditz - I tend to ride quite "light" in the hand, and possibly not asking enough of the horse. But in general the lightness comes from the horse, in them "lifting" withers and lightening the forehand.

One thing you have to watch is that you don't "reward" them back into a loose rein :rolleyes: which is what I ended up doing recently. Every time Fi showed a bit of tension I'd soften and release, but the release was effectively me not asking her to do anything. (i.e. me "ask", Fi "grump", me "soften, release", Fi "ah, thats better mum !") :rolleyes: (me "oh thats better, she's not grumping now !") Result - stuck in a rut and not improving.

So I have to be careful not to make the release too big now she knows what she is being asked for.

So yes, if YOU soften, he will get the idea. In fact, he'll "reward" you if you do the right thing ! I've spent the last few weeks doing tonnes of walk-halt-walk transitions :rolleyes: and I think I'm just about getting it now. Fi has been very patient with me :rolleyes:

[DITZ]

I was softening by just releasing my fingers is that right? Also, I felt lifting through the back, underneath the saddle, is that right?

[cvb]

you soften, by softening the fingers :D

sorry - couldn't resist... clench your fist tight. Now stop clenching.... feel the difference ? if you look, the fingers don't move miles, but the whole hand relaxes. So you still have the grip to hold the reins, but the feel changes. The movement of the fingers is milimeters.. if it helps, get a friend to grab a pair of reins and take turns to be horse or rider, and feedback on what the contact feels like. It can be quite fun cos if you "hold", you often find the person will yield to you :D

yes you will feel the back lift if they are rounding up. You may also feel it go from slightly downhill to slightly uphill as the wither/shoulder lifts. Overall it feels gooooood :D

[DITZ]

yep thats exactly what I am doing. At the moment tho I seem to be riding mostly with clenched fists! I'll persevere tho. Just wanted to check I was a) doing it right and b) the results I was getting were par for the course.

[cvb]

yep thats exactly what I am doing. At the moment tho I seem to be riding mostly with clenched fists! I'll persevere tho. Just wanted to check I was a) doing it right and b) the results I was getting were par for the course.

Try this with a friend as suggested above - how much does a long "hold" feel like an "ask" ?

You need to watch that you don't get tired and lose your feeling, and ditto for the horse.

To start off with, you'll just have the odd "blip" of softness. Then it starts to be a series of dots, and then the dots start joining. if you ask for joined-up-dots to start with, you could miss the horse learning to yield to pressure, and undoing that is much harder than teaching it from the start ;)

If you do "aaaasssssskkkkkkkkkkk" or "ask ask ask ask ask ask ask ask" it can come across as nagging, or you don't "hear" the try cos you're still asking, and the horse gets frustrated.

I guess it takes me back to NH ideas - ask, then wait before you ask again. and reward the smallest try :D

[DITZ]

am getting confused now. Heres what I do. Clench fist whilstever he is resisting. The moment he yields I release fingers.

[cvb]

uh - see how I've muddled you... sorry :rolleyes:

If I close my hand to ask for them to soften, and wait, and they don't soften - what do I do next ? do I keep the hold, or do i try something else ?

Well I need to think why they didn't respond.
Was it cos I asked wrong ? Then I need to ask again, better !
Was it cos I hadn't prepared them ? Then I need to ask again, but prepare better (half-halt etc)
Was it cos they weren't physically able to do what I asked ? This could be timing or place or e.g. tireness. Then I need to maybe ask again with better timing, better placing, or maybe quit asking for now...

and so on. Most of the answers are "ask again". So you have to stop asking first, then ask again.

Hmm - so I can almost hear the next question. How does the horse know the difference between a release and not-asking. Well thats a lot about feel - the not-ask is back to "neutral" whereas the release is softening and relaxing. Its a fine line, and I think actually a part of it is about you asking it again.

I think there was an example someone gave about not repeating parelli games too often - which goes something like someone says to you

what's 2 times 2 - and you say "FOUR" ! and they say "what's 2 times 2 ?"

if they keep asking, how do you feel ? You think "ok, maybe I got it wrong" so in the end they saw "what is 2 times 2?" and you say "fifteen !!!!" (or just give up)

So when we are shaping behaviour, we need to calmly and consistently ask the question and reward when they get closer to the right answer.

(Whats 2 times 2 ? less than 10. Sure, but you can do better than that. Whats 2 times 2 ? between 2 and 8 ? yes, but I still think you can do better, whats 2 times 2 ? between 3 and 5 ? hey thats getting really good, one more time - whats 2 times 2 ? four ! YEAH !!!! :D )

Each time you feedback how they did with the answer, and then if you need to ask again, you ask again.

is that clearer or less clear ?

[horsemad]

Its great to hear other people's experiences with this issue - nice to know I'm not alone :) I think what I hadn't understood about taking up a firmer contact was how much the horse could protest to start with.

Everything I've read about working the horse in an outline always talks of 'asking' with the fingers, getting the horse to 'soften' etc...it all sounds so lovely and gentle :rolleyes: But the way I had to ride and the response I got from Cindy was nothing like this - it was lots of temper tantrums from her and stress and tension for both of us! Thats why I always ended up backing down and loosening the reins - I was convinced that there was some physical reason why she was giving me this reaction, because I wasn't getting that softening and lightness I'd heard about. And I don't want to be one of those riders pulling the mouth off their horse to get them to listen.

I think now that Cindy was just trying to evade the contact because she didn't like it - 'don't want to, you can't make me'!! And its only because I have persisted with it this time that she is starting to co-operate (and still by no means all the time, but we are getting there...)

The other thing I'd been a bit concerned about is that if it became a fight every time I rode her, Cindy would end up disliking me and not wanting to be ridden.....but she's still happy enough to be caught and comes over to me when I bring her bridle over....so I think we are still friends :D

So Carrimclaren and Ditz - I definitely think its worth persevering. The reward is amazing when your horse starts to soften. The few times its happened with me recently, it is THE most fantastic feeling :D

cvb - interesting explanations as ever :) I know what Ditz means though about 'releasing' - I have found that I have to wait until Cindy relaxes before I can really 'release' with my fingers. If she is pulling against me, I squeeze the reins to get her to soften - this will work for her, but don't know if this is your technique?

[Yann]

I'm no expert on this but an ask should generally be accompanied by leg to encourage them to step under more - with Rio this is often enough to get her head to drop without doing anything extra with the reins.

I know it's off at a bit of a tangent, but a lot of horses seem to be ridden with the standard pounds of pressure in the contact, how can this evolve into self carriage with hardly any contact?

*edit* Cross posted with you there - no you aren't alone, I had misgivings too when we first started, although Rio cottoned on very quickly. Prior to having lessons I was never able to get her to drop her head, I assumed it wasn't possible. It was just a case of being persistent and consistent:)

[cvb]

Just to add into the mix, the person-to-person rein simulation I talked about is dead useful to play with "feel". I went to a Peggy Cummins clinic last year and she talked about (a) "meet and melt" and (b) rotation to help the horse to soften,

I wrote it up at the time in a thread from Tootsie, so here it is repeated...

"meet and melt"

[I have to preface this with a warning that I suspect this concept is
easier to demonstrate (feel) than explain in words. (The
obligtory "get-out" clause)]

Imagine you are riding with equal "weight" in both reins. A dial on
the reins would have the same reading on both sides - say its
measures a "5". Now your horse leans on one side - now I could keep the dial at 5 by giving, or I could "meet" that pressure (the dial ticks up 5,6,7,8....) Having "met" the pressure I then "melt" it
back - through my own feel on the reins, so the dial goes down
8,7,6,5... to where it was.

In doing the "meet" part, I 'own' my own arms, elbows, hands ie I
neither allow myself to pulled off balance, nor do I pull the
horse/bit/contact backwards. I am only putting in exactly what the
horse is - ie meeting the pressure exactly - nor more, no less.

In terms of what you would see. you shouldn't actually see much. But if you were on the other end of the rein you would feel a lot. The contact would be alive and vibrant, not harsh or hard. The result would be an even contact again, rather than an over-correction or evasion.

It was fascinating watch this happen with two humans either end of the reins !

Oops need to go grab the rotation section :rolleyes:

EDIT: ok - here's the rotation bit

Now - in your example you have him being heavy on both reins, so what you do is rotate your whole upper body by a very tiny amount in one direction, and then meet and melt the "inside" rein. This may be enough, but if not, then rotate back to centre, then a small fraction to other direction and repeat.

Its is important that you keep your upper arms by side of body so that as you rotate, your arms will rotate as well. Imagine you are carrying a tray and turn the tray

It is really only a tiny rotation - maybe half a degree. Not a big obvious turn at all but enough to alter the rein contact.

This may sound like voodoo, but Peggy had us working in pairs trying it out and its amazing ! She also does a little bounce thing with her legs but I didn't get that one well enough to be able to explain it.

[DITZ]

definitely clearer just not sure how to apply yet... ;)

[cvb]

the "bounce" thing is a lift in the thigh in times with the horse. Its barely visible. She was using a gym ball as a horse, and a person as the horse.

I must go back and review her books again :rolleyes:

[cvb]

I'm no expert on this but an ask should generally be accompanied by leg to encourage them to step under more - with Rio this is often enough to get her head to drop without doing anything extra with the reins.

I know it's off at a bit of a tangent, but a lot of horses seem to be ridden with the standard pounds of pressure in the contact, how can this evolve into self carriage with hardly any contact?

*edit* Cross posted with you there - no you aren't alone, I had misgivings too when we first started, although Rio cottoned on very quickly. Prior to having lessons I was never able to get her to drop her head, I assumed it wasn't possible. It was just a case of being persistent and consistent:)

Yep "ask" is more than hand. Absolutelypostively :D Leg into hand.

"pounds of pressure"... yes, I'm sure they are. And its hard to put into words, but when an instructor I highly respect rides my horse, and I get back on, there is a "solidity" about the feel that makes it less light, but not heavy - its like it grounds the feel somehow - connects it up more to the rest of the horse.

i.e. I start with "light in the mouth" with a bit of "light in the body" and she turns the "light in the body" up a lot more :D

its not faster, its not stronger, its just more there....

the light in the mouth comes from seat and hands, the light in the body from seat and legs (over-simplifying) but they don't come without each other, so the full "ask" has to be a full-body-ask :p

[cvb]

So Carrimclaren and Ditz - I definitely think its worth persevering. The reward is amazing when your horse starts to soften. The few times its happened with me recently, it is THE most fantastic feeling :D

cvb - interesting explanations as ever :) I know what Ditz means though about 'releasing' - I have found that I have to wait until Cindy relaxes before I can really 'release' with my fingers. If she is pulling against me, I squeeze the reins to get her to soften - this will work for her, but don't know if this is your technique?

Horsemad, did I cover this with what i said about them not responding ?

And yes it is a great feeling. Fi has had a sore back so was in the "can't do it" situation. As her back is starting to improve, I can start to ask again - and the work just gets better and better again. Should say we're not doing anything fancy here - just your basic prelim type stuff. But even a soft walk, halt, trot, without head coming up or tail swishing to say "ouch mum" :( is a real gift right now.

[Bozzy]

cvb - I just wanted to say thanks, you really are excellent at explaining things :)

[DITZ]

aah cvb where would we be without you? Our resident PSG expert??? :D

[carrimclaren]

I think at the end of the day i'm my own worse enemy :) I probably am doing not too bad a job but i am so critical of myself (not my horse) and want perfect instead of a comprimise. <-- not good :rolleyes:

I spent about a month getting nowhere with my mare as i was asking and she was replying by sticking her head in the air or trying to steam off. In the end i was so depressed a friend offered me a lesson on her schoolmaster. Wow is all i can say :D Before my mare i'd never done any collecting up work or been taught how to so i wasn't sure whether i was doing it right. By getting on her horse i proved to myself i can do it and saw where i was going wrong.
So to anyone else going through problems, maybe try riding something that is easier to get going and it really does help.

But saying that i schooled tonight and i realised i can't get her to listen or collect up in halt. I can get her listening in trot and canter (not perfect but a start) but as soon as i halt i lose the contact and when i ask again in halt she sticks her nose as far up as it can go. This is when i don't know what to do, do i make my hands firm and hold or do i sponge the rein (as someone tried to tell me to do a while ago)? I know i should make sure i get halt and walk first instead of trot and canter but i thought that something is better than nothing.

[cvb]

aah cvb where would we be without you? Our resident PSG expert??? :D

PSG ??? The only acronym I know that is "PSG" doesn't fit me ! Like I said to something else - tonnes of stuff in my head, I'm like a sponge that way - but otherwise just a normal rider with a full-time job I commute to !

That's why I'm practised on the basics ;)

Carriemclaren - just a wee thought - if you do walk-halt-walk-halt on a circle, does she still do this ? If you come back to the conversation we had above, then you need to "ask" - but your question becomes which is the best way for you to ask for this horse.

If you think there might be some lateral stiffness, perhaps ask for a lateral yield with one rein instead.

Check that your cues are clear - at the Mark rashid clinic I got picked up for asking her to walk on and halt at the same time :rolleyes: But it sounds like you're already IN halt, so too much leg shouldn't be your issue ?

The other exercise Mark used which seemed to work nicely, was to ask for a step or two of rein back from the halt, and then walk on again. The reinback cue also needs to be soft and so on, and you don't want them to start offering reinback as an evasion to softening. But it did work. As a variation on this, you might try using turn on forehand.

i.e. ride a diamond/square shape. At each corner halt. Then in the halt you just take inside leg back and softly ask them to yield to it. Wait. if they don't respond, tip their head very slightly to inside with rein. If they offer reinback, check your outside leg is OFF !! You are only looking for a try at this stage. But again its asking for a yield of some form, and asking for overall softness. Quiet, calm, consistent riding :)

Also check you're not asking for the world when a try will do. I When I was working on this with Fi, I know she can do it so was quite frustrated when we didn't nail it perfectly at first. But I needed to reward the small tries to turn them into a the right answer. Softly softly catchee monkey and all that. I also realised that I was bustling about - so another hint would be to check your walk speed is not too fast for your horse to soften. Sure, later they will be able to cope with more - but for now, make it easy for them to do what you want. I'm not saying they should be inactive, but there's also no fire to get to ! ;)

[DITZ]

You're PSG to me! ;)

[cvb]

arg...big head... having trouble getting out the door.... :D

(LOL - PSG - I wish !!)

[carrimclaren]

gawd cvb, you've really made me think now. Not good for a Monday :p

I pretty much think it's a case of a) she;s getting confused signals from me and therefore doesn't know what the hell i'm asking and b) i'm expecting too much from the pair of us. :) I think there's a little bit of mare quality thrown in but not a lot to be honest.

I am schooling tonight so will try the walk-halt-walk-halt on the circle. Can i ask you one huge favour? To tell me whether i'm asking her correctly. In halt i ask with my hands (sponge the rein?) and apply pressure with my leg? Because this is what i've been doing and on another horse it works but on her she shoves her nose in the air higher than my head and evades me. Now i realise this could be her evading me asking but then i'm stuck as to what to do when she does that as i've seen a lot of people on their horses then start to saw at them to bring them in and i really am not getting into that habit. I think sometimes i'm too quiet in my hand as i have a paranoia about sawing. :o
I'm also going to try the turn on the forehand exercise you suggested as we can both actually do this so it will be a good start for us.

Thanks for all your help. :)

[cvb]

In halt i ask with my hands (sponge the rein?) and apply pressure with my leg?

So you adding more leg than when you are just walking along ? I think you may be falling into the same trap I did :)

What is the leg actually asking for ? If the walk is already active, then you want more activity ?? But you are asking for halt ... so you want the hind leg to stop.

I think we get told that to avoid the horse stopping with its hind end trailed out somewhere behind we should somehow "drive" the hind end under. But quite often this is too much, and the horse simply gets confused and frustrated.

So - try it with no leg. Just "think" halt. What Mark was teaching me was a 2 phase halt. On one stride you breathe out, and on the very next stride you close your hand. Make sure you don't go "breeaaaaatheee, hooooolldd". It wants to be "out, hold" - a quick one-two ;)

When you say "sponge" the rein, are you asking for softness or for halt ? And its it "sponge sponge sponge" or "hold" wait, release ?

The aim is that you use a clear aid that they respond to. If you use a repetitive aid (sponge sponge sponge) - which one are they responding to ? They should respond to the first one, and stop :D

[horsemad]

I think sometimes i'm too quiet in my hand as i have a paranoia about sawing. :o


I can add nothing to cvb's great explanations! But speaking from experience, I think there are times when you have to 'ask' more firmly with your hands - which makes me think there is such a thing as being TOO gentle. I know exactly what you mean about being paranoid about 'sawing' - I worry that I'm being too rough when my horse starts fighting with me. But I've come to realise that if I'm too gentle with Cindy, she will just ignore me :o But if I am more forceful with her, she will give in and soften.

[cvb]

I was quite (pleasantly) surprised when Mark was encouraging riders to take a shorter contact. Basically if you couldn't ask the horse to soften without doing weird things with your hands, your length of rein was wrong.

I'm now finding that as my two get used to me asking, I can ask with a little longer rein. But I needed a sensible contact at first.

So if you're tempted to saw, perhaps you need to take up a little rein ?

[carrimclaren]

i think i'm more confused than my horse :(

I am going to use tonight as my start from the beginning night :)

And yes you're very correct cvb, i did get taught that in halt i need to drive the backend under so to apply leg. I believe i ask with too much leg in a lot of circumstances by the sounds of it :o Especially in halt. <-- i feel a right dork now as when i put some thought into this then i realise why she's confused. :rolleyes: I will have to have a rethink of my asking methods as i think i'm doing sponge sponge sponge instead of hold, wait, release.

Am going to approach my friend again and ask whether i can take her up on her offer of riding her schoolmaster again as it really did help me no end when i rode him.

[horsemad]

[QUOTE=cvb]
I'm now finding that as my two get used to me asking, I can ask with a little longer rein. But I needed a sensible contact at first.
QUOTE]

This I can DEFINITELY identify with :D I've found now that there are times when Cindy will drop her head and go really nicely while I have the reins relatively loose. BUT she will only do this if I've started off with short reins and a very firm contact.