How to teach horse a turn on the haunches?

[horsecrazychick]

I'm not taking lessons on this particular horse anymore, only riding her on trails and local gymkhanas. I have already taught her to do a turn on the forehand, though it's still rather sloppy and akward, but not sure how to begin with a turn on the haunches? She won't even do it from the ground. When you push on her shoulder/neck she just turns in a small cirlce and walks away lol. I think learning a turn on the haunches will help us out a ton in events such as the keyhole, and of course it will be a good challenge for both of us, especially since I don't have much training experience. Any advice? :rolleyes:

[Showjumper]

Before teaching her on board, I'd teach her in-hand. I taught Dolly when she was 3. She already knew how to move away from pressure so the cue for her is very easy - rein on her neck and the voice command over. At first she moved away in a circle, but as soon as she moved just her front legs, I released the pressure on her neck and praised her. She learnt really quickly :) Mounted, the signal is exactly the same :)

[horsecrazychick]

Well, I've been trying to teach her from the ground, and she does move away from pressure, but she finds it much easier to just walk away in a small circle than to keep her back feet still. I'm not sure how to stop the forward movement, and if I try she just backs up.

[Showjumper]

If she walks off, ask her to stand, praise her when she does, and start again. It might help to have her in a corner of the arena to limit her directions and help her to understand what you want :)

[horsecrazychick]

Ok thanks I'll try that

[Montana]

Hi Horsecrazychick,

I had no idea how to begin with lateral work until I went to a clinic with Mark Rashid a couple of years ago. My horse was very inxeperienced at this point, and I didn't really believe that we were at an advanced enough stage when Mark suggested teaching some of these movements, but I couldn't believe how easily he took to them.

We started with the turn on the forehand, and Mark explained how all of the movements could be linked together to eventually create your sidepass, by teaching the front end to move, then the hindquarters, then both together.

It sounds as though you have already taught the turn on the forehand, but I'll run through the cues as they were explained to me. Firstly, take up a little contact on the rein, just to discourage forward movement, then drift your leg back behind the cinch, and gradually apply pressure until there is some sideways movement. This doesn't even have to be a step, just a shift of weight will do initially. Then immediately release the cue. I would have missed a couple of his first tries, if I hadn't had Mark on the ground pointing these out and telling me when to release. You might want to get someone to 'spot' for you for the first few times. You can then gradually leave your leg for a fraction longer once you get the shift of weight every time you ask, and wait for a step over, then release. It's vitally important to reward every try though.

Mark explained that he would always teach this in the middle of a space, rather than in a corner, with less options for movement. He believes that the horse needs to eliminate all of the wrong answers before he can decide on the correct one. This way, he takes responsibility for the movement, and learns it in a way where he is convinced that he has the right answer - rather than always having doubts. Although my horse was initially trying every move he already knew (forward, backward, turning), I simply kept the cue there until his feet were stopped, and his weight shifted over, then released.

The turn on the hauches was next. Before we could put that in place, he needed to have his rein back soft and fluid, with no resistance. The cue for the turn on the haunches was to begin to ask for the back, then as soon as the weight shifts slightly to the hindquarters, lay the rein across the neck (so for example the left rein for a turn to the right), and keep it there until the front end shifts over. Again, the horse will probably try all kinds of other movements before getting it right ( mine decided he really knew how to do the turn on the forehand, and offered this up immediately :D ), but again, the cue must remain consistent, and kept on until there is a 'drift' over of the front end, when there needs to be an immediate release. You might find again that you need someone on the ground looking for the shift for you, it can be really difficult to spot in amongst everything else. Mark also stressed that while we were both learning these moves, we could accept that he might be backing up when the step over happens, and that this was not something to worry about. If he needed to be moving backwards in order to lift his front end to move it over, then we could allow that to start with.

We then moved on briefly to the sidepass, and it was incredible to me that he was so light on his feet following the other two moves, that I only had to put my leg against his girth, and it happened immediately.

I have never taught this from the ground, but would imagine that the principles would remain the same, as Showjumper has already described.

Sorry for the long ramble - hope it helps!

[entreat]

Great ramble, Montana!! You've given me something to work towards. :D Thankyou!

[cvb]

can I just back up Montana on this ? I was at one of Mark's clinics earlier this year. We didn't do t.o.f. etc ourselves for various reasons, but I tried it out when I got home.

It is posisble the most commonsense approach to these movements I have ever seen taught - makes sense to both rider and horse :D

It does help to have some good feedback. e.g. one of the riders was working on t.o.f., and kept getting reinback and mark just said "well take your OUTSIDE leg off then !!" and soon as the rider did that (i.e. just using one leg for the cue, not both), lo and behold a really neat turn :D

Working with my mum's fell on the forehand turn, he has just got lighter and lighter to the leg in ALL his work. Its an amazing change from a pooh-bear pony. His reinback is still a little tense, but we've done a little turn on haunches as well, and thats coming nicely too.

[entreat]

Ok - showing ignorance here...

Instructor (not a great one... barely even 'good') told us last week (my first attempt at TOF) to keep the inside leg stil and on, with the outside leg behind the girth with more pressure - is that roughly right? Would I possibly get a better response without the inside leg?

As for reinback - I discovered Casper got way confused when I had my leg on, and was much less tense when using reins only (actually arched his neck for a change!!)

[Tootsie4U]

Entreat, think of your leg (inside) as a pivot point. It helps the horses I ride (rather rode :rolleyes: ) to drop some weight into that leg, think of it as a post and ask the horse to scoot around it with your other leg (which will be behind the girth). Keep the horse soft in the bridle (you can softly open the rein for the direction you're going) but otherwise the reins are only used to prevent forward motion.

It takes a little while for you and the horse to get the hang of it. Too much rein and the horse backs, too little and he'll walk out the front. Same with too much vs. too little leg.

Using the wall is a huge help, definately recommend starting there.

And a key element to this exercise is that the horse has to be very good a yielding to pressure. If he isnt, you've got to get off and teach him what you expect.

[cvb]

Ok - showing ignorance here...

Instructor (not a great one... barely even 'good') told us last week (my first attempt at TOF) to keep the inside leg stil and on, with the outside leg behind the girth with more pressure - is that roughly right? Would I possibly get a better response without the inside leg?

As for reinback - I discovered Casper got way confused when I had my leg on, and was much less tense when using reins only (actually arched his neck for a change!!)

backing up what Tootsie says - the key phrase is here is your instructors "still and on". The different parts of an aid/cue need to mean something. So in this situation, what is the inside leg trying to say ?

If you have the inside leg actively "on", you are asking the horse to move the inside hind away from the aid/leg - when what you what him to do is move towards that leg - so its a bit confusing for the horse.

Being realistic - I think you will find quite a few "english" trainers will include the inside leg in the aid - so here is a rationale for doing so...

if instead, you are using the inside leg passively and supportively - to ask for the end of the turn, and to support the horse through the turn - thats more appropriate.

But in most cases, to an "english" rider, this passive/supportive leg feels "off" not "on".

Personally I suspect these are the same people who tell you to ask your horse to halt with more leg. Ok - so I'm a horse. I figured "more leg" means "go", and now all of a sudden it means "stop" :confused: and when it doesn't mean that, it means collect ??? Mark Rashid picked me up on this and got me to ask for halt in a way that made more sense to my horse (and me !).

I think you would find that a more advanced "english"/dressage rider/trainer would get beyond this and make the aids very specific to the movement and clear. But the "mass" of our instructors tend to repeat what they were taught and haven't necessarily had reason to work out the logic (or lack of) behind it. (count myself in that - working out the logic has come separate from training as an instructor).

In western, they are more clear that you "open the door" in the direction you want the horse to move, by taking the leg OFF. I personally like the western logic a lot and have used it with horses I am riding "dressage" style with.

You also need to remember that there is a difference between teaching the horse the movement - when it needs to be very "ABC" level, clear, calm, obvious etc - and refining that movement to improve the quality.

[Montana]

Hi Entreat,

I would agree with both Tootsie and CVB regarding the supporting role of the inside leg, but only in as much as I don't take it away completely (thus opening the door, and allowing him out the side). My horse is (luckily :p )extremely sensitive to any pressure, so to actually put the inside leg on, in the 'english' meaning of the word, would mean to move away from it. He caught me by surprise with this sensitivity when I first started this work, in that Mark had to tell me to release the cue 3 times before I realised what had happened - he'd begun to shift his weight simply because my leg had begun to drift back. I was the heavy handed one who assumed that my leg would have to be firmly on behind the cinch before Monty would think about moving.

That was an eye-opener for me, I would have missed the extremely important try, simply because I wasn't looking for it yet. Yielding to pressure is something which needs teaching, but this can only be done by looking for the try each time. It may not always be a huge try, but it will nearly always be there when asked for, and our job is to be extremely vigilant in watching for it, and instantly rewarding it. I just found it amazing how quickly he responded, once I started listening to him :rolleyes: Once he got the first step, we could pivot 360 degrees in a couple of minutes, softly, and accurately. Had me laughing out loud :D

The backing up is another issue I worked with Mark on. I had taught him to back a step or two at a time, and it was always 'reasonably' soft, but not really fluid. Mark told me that I was moving the outside of the horse, but not the inside. In other words, he was going through the motions, but not really committing to the movement. The other thing I had inadvertantly done, was to give a huge release after 2 steps or so. Monty firmly believed that I would only ever need 2 steps from him, and was prepared to blow up if I insisted upon any more :(

Mark taught the cue for a rein back as no legs on, and all from the hands. He had me take up the slack on the reins, just enough to mean 'do something', then simply hold it, fixing my hands to the front of the saddle if neccessary, to prevent me from being caught in a pulling match. The cue was not enough to force him into going back, but within a couple of seconds it meant enough to cause a response. He was trying raising his head, throwing it downwards, trying to walk forward, even a little half hearted rear. Each time, he hit the rein, and tried something else. All Mark was saying to me at this point was 'keep it there, he'll find it'. Pretty soon he dropped his head, and stood on a soft rein. At this point, I was told to increase the pressure 'just a hair', and hold there. Keeping this cue on, and consistant, and patiently waiting, Monty worked out for himself what was required, and the change which came over him, from a headtossing, stamping, rearing crazy horse to one who was licking and chewing, then sunk onto his quarters and powered back 5-6 steps in one go, was fantastic. We went through the process several times, and met a couple of resistances, including just standing and bracing (asked him to give his head to the side, with one rein just to break the brace). But each time it would simply be a case of applying the cue, and leaving it there, releasing when a 'real' back had taken place. I was looking for fluidity, lowered head, and the 'sink' back onto the hindquarters. I had to stop myself from releasing completely as I had been doing, but simply softening as I got the required response, to say 'yes, that's it', then only releasing once we'd gone as far back as I required.

Oops - long ramble again! I shouldn't get started about my horse! :D

[cvb]

Montana

I'm exactly the same when I start on about Mark's stuff :D

Its interesting how reinback "all from the hands" can mean completely opposite things :eek:

I hadn't managed to teach my mum to ask for reinback softly enough, so she tended to do it "under pressure" for the whole time - or "all from the hands". As a result her pony tends to react by going head up and tense - to get away from the bit contact. Its the classic "ride them forward into a contact" approach.

So now I am doing it "all from the hands" but in the sense Mark means i.e. I am not asking him to go forward and back at the same time, I am just asking for him to go soft and then work it out himself.

I think one of the key differences is the WAY you do the "applying the cue, and leaving it there, releasing when a 'real' back had taken place" in that you only use just enough cue to get the response - not apply more to get more steps.

not sure I'm making sense - well it IS Friday afternoon !

[horsecrazychick]

The cue for the turn on the haunches was to begin to ask for the back, then as soon as the weight shifts slightly to the hindquarters, lay the rein across the neck (so for example the left rein for a turn to the right), and keep it there until the front end shifts over.
Just wondering if this is only with western horses or english trained horses as well? Jazzy won't neck rein at ALL, so I don't see how this could work. (Yes, we ride english style, direct-reining, in western tack at gymkhans! LOL) Also, we worked on it a little yesterday just from the ground and although we got one or two small steps of turn on the haunches, what she continued to do when I applied pressure to her neck and shoulder was move her shoulders away, like she's supposed to, AND at the same time swing her hindquarters towards me. Sort of like doing a turn on the haunches and on the forehand at the same time? O_o hehe is that possible? Is it okay for her to do this until she learns to keep her backfeet still?

[cvb]

Mark was using it on all horses in front of him, regardless of their discipline or training background.

And the kind of rein he was using was not a real loose "neck rein" - but in indirect rein (as you might use in "english" riding anyway).

Getting stuck after a couple of steps could be

- that she's got her back legs in a tangle so can't physically cross over anymore, so offers a pivot instead ? I suspect that starting over with a step or two of reinback might help here ? (Sometimes this happens if they rush a little, so asking one step at a time might help as well).

- or you have a little bit of inside leg on ? so you are asking for turn and haunches AND turn on forehand at the same time without meaning to ;)

So check your own balance as you take the first few steps, making sure you are not getting thrown one way or t'other. Then ask again.

I think that should work :D

[horsecrazychick]

Thanks guys :rolleyes: