Opposition to NH!!

[Caz&Irena]

There is a woman on our yard who is teaching her horse Parelli. She rides him bareback with a headcollar and Parelli rope and the pair of them look fantastic. She is teaching me the theory and some of the moves which my horse and I are enjoying very much, considering I have only been doing some groundwork and a little ridden work this way for a week I have found I have started to bond much more with my mare. I was giving her withers a scratch today and she started to groom me back! Also this morning she was following me around the menage turning when I did without any prompting and completely free, to say that I'm impressed with the outcome so far is an understatement! But the problem that we seem to be having is other people's attitudes, this lady has been ridiculed for this approach and now I seem to be getting the cold shoulder too because I'm also interested in this training method. Nothing has actually been said outright to me (unfortunately the woman didn't fare so well in this respect herself) but I HAVE had one or two pointed comments made. Has anyone else encountered this before? If so, what did you do? Parelli has never been practised on our yard before and there are around 60 horses on it so you can imagine the opposition..................help :(

[Showjumper]

I constantly get people thinking I'm bonkers because I ride Dolly bitless and treeless, but I've got very good at either ignoring them or blinding them with the theory and practice of what I do.

It sounds like Parelli is working really well for you and your horse, and that's whats important. If you can, ignore them. Still be friendly, but don't rise to anything they say about your training methods. Do as much research as possible, so that if anyone asks why you do it, you can give a really good answer.

Enjoy your horse :)

[Caz&Irena]

Thank you Showjumper. I just don't know why people behave like this when all we are trying to do is the best for our horses. I almost went treeless too but the SBS was taken off the market so I ended up buying a Saddle Co saddle a couple of weeks ago (although it is rather nice!). Now I notice that Heather has brought out the Fhoenix...........typical of me to miss out!!!!!!

[Showjumper]

I've won over the staff in my local tack shop. They've never been anti-treeless or bitless, but since seeing my Dr Cook and Diddi Pad, they've become very enthusiastic about the benefits. The Bowen Therapist who saw Dolly this morning commented on how good her back was and how well treeless suited her :)

[Cheko]

I had my horse schooled in the Monty Roberts way and I also ride as natural as I can. The people at my yard never make rude comments to anyone else about how they school or ride their horses. Where did you get your treeless saddle and what is it like to ride in?[ :p /COLOR]

[Caz&Irena]

Showjumper:
That's excellent! I have got a Best Friends bareback pad and I'm also thinking about a Dr Cook bitless bridle so I'm on track :D

[Showjumper]

Cheko, I have 2 treelesses at the moment: a Fitform that I've had for ages and bought secondhand, and a Diddi Pad that I bought brand new from Iceland and only arrived this morning. I plan to let Dolly decide which one she likes best but don't want to sell either of them :( Really ought to though as I don't need 2 saddles...

Gillian, I definitely recommend the Dr Cook, it's gorgeous :D

[michelle c]

dont worry about it!! when a girl came to my yard no one heard of it they used to say things like she was crazy, it was dangerous, her horse is getting away with things coz she doesnt smack it among other things as well!!!! i then started through this girl and i started getting the cold sholder and i could tell what people were thinking. when i first started i would tell them how good she was and how the programme was, but soon realised that people wernt interested and wernt bothered that i was getting great results, i knew i was on the right track so i ignored everyone that thought i was crazy and got on with it, my pony was telling me i was on the right tracks!!! and NOW that i am riding with string round megs neck and getting her to do great things, they now are seeing how she has changed but still say that the programme worked for her but it wouldnt with theirs, this is because they dont want to try it and be proved wrong!!! stick with it you are doing the right thing!!! :D

[notpoodle]

we did a spot of tellington jones 'obstacle course' ing last summer (ie a variety of pole grids, labyrinths, stars etc.). in just a headcollar. angel loved it! i found it fun as well :) then two girls from the yard came round the corner yelling i was crazy and asking why angel didnt wear a bridle and that what i was doing was stupid (god im glad i left THAT yard!). i felt quite down after that ad havent tried it since :(

julia
x

[hackedoff]

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who regard their horse as some kind of status symbol and mirror of their personal power. If you are not seen by these people to be dominating and threatening your horse to get the results you want you challenge their belief system and they will act out their fear of being wrong on you.
Sad isnt it?
I use NH methods because they work, full stop. All you are doing is speaking the horses language and allowing them to have an opinion. Do you communicate to others by shouting, physical violence and the threat of pain and discomfort, or by means of a two-way conversation? Its a really simple choice if you wish to make it, but the mainstream equine world is so obssessed with 'control' that any other way is seen as bunkum. It's their loss. (but I feel sorry for their horses)
*hackedoff puts soapbox away*

[jUmPingIsLifE]

If it works for you and your horse, ignore them. its to bad some people have to be so close minded, if people do things differant then me i am very eager to see how they do it to broaden my own knowlage and maybe their ways will help me out with a horse down the road. its their loss if they dont see what woderful results you get with NH and they stick their noses up to it :)

[Caz&Irena]

Thanks everybody! I must admit that I never used to believe in natural horsemanship myself and wouldn't have considered trying it, I used to think it was all sensationalism and hype. That was until I saw it with my own eyes! I have known this lady for some time and her horse is no easy ride, I have seen him turn from a hot headed bundle to a soft and happy boy. Now I have started to see the same results with my girl and I feel so excited for her and me. She seems to be enjoying herself and I feel happier and more confident too. So I shall certainly carry on regardless and this :p to the rest of them I am now a convert :D

[virtuallyhorses]

Unfortunately the horseworld does seem to have all ends of the spectrum - the completely rigid, closed minded people - and the people who's minds are so open their brains have fallen out ;)

A friend had a similar problem at a dressage yard. Strangely none of the really close minded people seem to understand that the really good proponents of their own 'system', often dressage or BHS types, are so close to NH that its not funny. Read Podhajsky or Oliveira or Xenophon and the principles are almost identical - the tools and methods may vary but the guiding priniciples of fairness, consistency, empathy and communication are the same.

However, be aware that some of the NH proponents are just as rigid - again not the ones who really understand, often the disciples\groupies as I call them - banging on about how terrible saddles or shoes or bits are. A tool is just a tool , how it is used (or not used) and understood by the human is the issue.

Isn't it odd though that some people feel the need to be so defensive or even aggresive - its not like you are forcing them to do anything or doing any of this NH 'hocus pocus' on their horse! :p It's a very typical defensive (guilty) type reaction and also rather typical bigotry (stupidity + fear = bullies) behaviour - sadly very human traits. The best reaction is to ignore them, pleasantly - as if you haven't noticed - and let the results speak for themselves. Of course, when your horse stands quietly, trailer loads, is clipped, seen by the dentist etc etc etc calmly - then you are LUCKY to have found such a horse :D ;)

[hackedoff]

and the people who's minds are so open their brains have fallen out ;)
LOL!!!!! :D :D

[mayS]

I think there is two differnet things people may be noticing: the parelli method of training and the bitless riding. One does not require the other though.

Are we sure they're upset over the different approach parelli takes? Or are they concerned about the safety when they see a person riding without bit for the first time... or riding in only a halter ?

I would never think less of anyone for doing either if they're doing it right/properly/safely. My only guess is maybe those who don't know any different see your friend riding with only a halter on her horse and they feel it's not the safest thing? (I don't think they can sense she did some of her training with parelli just by seeing her ride)

I also don't think riding in only a halter isn't a specifically NH thing at all. There are a number of different routes a person can use to get there. Native Americans rode their horses without bridles or parelli. :D

Anyway, ignore anyone at your yard who is giving you a hard time about it. What's important is that you and your horse like the method and that it's working.

[Moomin]

I left a yard because I was constantly riduculed for wanting to do NH with my horse - well, I had no choice really because Moo wanted me to do everything in the way which turns out to be NH when you put it together, and I figured she can't really be wrong can she!!

Anyway I was constantly laughed at, ridiculed to my face, talked about behind my back, then they all got really snotty when I said I would ride bareback until I could afford the saddle Moo and I wanted (a Balance International one - took me 8 months to save up but we got it!!).

Turns out they did me a favour - at my next yard people were interested in what we were doing and even joined in, and through one of the people there I heard about the yard I'm at now which is perfect as its a NH training centre so no ridicule whatsoever there its just what happens!! So now I can ride bitless, bareback, western, in my 'funny english saddle' (that's what my friend calls the Balance one!!) and no one says a thing. Bliss!!

Of course its easier if you're in an environment where everyone is doing it though.... The people at my first yard just couldn't understand what I was trying to do - their approach was kick it, pull it, beat it, until it does what you want. The second yard one person thought she was too advanced for groundwork (funnily enough she has the most stupid and avoidable accidents with her horse of anyone I've ever known!!) and one other person thought she couldn't do it herself so gave up on it.

I know its difficult to ignore it - but stick to your guns!!

[Caz&Irena]

mayS:
The people on the yard know that she is doing her Parelli levels and she has just received her Parelli rope. Before that she was riding bareback, in a headcollar with the reins attached to the rings either side. She is an instructor (not in Parelli) as well and used to instruct for many years at a local riding school so basically she has just changed her way of thinking and unfortunately she has come up against some quite nasty opposition.

Moomin:
I WILL stick to my guns but it is making me want to move yards too which will be a bit uprooting for my girl who has been there for eleven years in fact since she was broken at 3. I have been on the yard for 6 years (I bought her from somebody on the yard) and it just makes me cross that I've been made to feel this way in the first place :mad:

[jinglejoys]

:( The only thinb that worries me about hearing of these horses kept in non NH friendly yards (The ones that won't open their eyes and shut their mouths at all) Is that they might try to prove their point when the owner isn't there.

[hannah:)]

That is so rude! :mad:

Why do people have a problem with bitless bridles? I've seen international competitors using hackamores - don't know if bitless is exactly the same but surely there can't be that much difference?

I'd prefer to see a happy 'unconventionally' ridden horse than a miserable animal strapped down with every bit of tack under the sun.

[Caz&Irena]

Hannah:
I couldn't agree more! I can't honestly say that I'm an expert at training horses as I have never 'broken' one myself but the Parelli or NH way does seem to make a lot of sense. I used to train dogs with or without treats depending on the dog, for instance my labrador lived for food so that was his reward for doing something correct, a treat at the end of an exercise. My border collie on the other hand liked the chase for a reward so when he performed the task I would throw a ball on a rope or something similar. It kept both my dogs motivated but in a different way. Putting that thought into practice with a horse then surely using a bitless bridle, riding in a headcollar, giving treats or whatever is correct if YOUR horse is happier being ridden/taught that way and you can both see the improvement. What difference does it make? OOOH! rant over!!!!

[Cheko]

This argument conventional -v- natural methods is getting a bit over the top. It all boils down to a question of choice. If folk who choose to tie their horses down with martingales, cruel bits etc would shut their mouths and open their ears and eyes, they would realise that methods such as Parelli etc make sense and, may be they should give it a go. They may even be pleasantly surprised. I try to ride my pony as kindly as a I can using body language - ie - if I wish to turn right without using the rein aid, I put my weight on my righ seatbone and lightly touch is side with my left leg. He then responds appropriately. I use other body language and my voice and have learnt to ride him humanely using my own natural signals to him. Those who wish to use conventional methods please do so but please avoid using cruel, spiteful bits and other pieces of tack which cause pain and discomfort. :mad:

[notpoodle]

i think a lot of the NH stuff is just plain common sense (so it seems to me, anyway) ie. a horse doesnt really have the capacity or brains to 'play up' or 'be spiteful', so chances are when horses turn bad they're probably in pain or don't agree with the way they are treated.
julia
x

[Moomin]

Gillian - I had been happy at my first yard with two previous horses for a few years - until I got Moo and started NH - then my 'friends' suddenly turned against me.

I think NH is mainly common sense too. I have noticed that a lot of people who ridicule Parelli-esque horsemanship are people who acutally CAN'T DO IT to save their lives!! Therefore they condemn it as rubbish and go back to push pull kick beat because they can do that and it worked before. The horses can ALWAYS do it but the owners CAN'T always do it. Ask them though and it didn't suit their horse. We have a lot of people coming through our yard learning NH with their horses and I've never seen a single horse not prefer NH to what they had before.

I was browsing my Xenophon the other day - and all it basically says is be nice to your horse and treat your horse fairly. NH seems to me to say the same thing.

[Caz&Irena]

Moomin:
That's exactly what I said to this lady, people wouldn't make adverse comments unless they feel threatened or are jealous. I noticed that when she went bareback some others started riding bareback for a while, I assume that was just to 'prove' they could do it too :rolleyes:

[Yann]

The yard I started out on was very traditional and you did anything 'alternative' very furtively or not at all for fear of being told what a lot of crap it was. I proved to myself it wasn't by making my uncatchable horse catchable, but when I suggested trying the same thing to another livery with the same problem I was left in no doubt as to their opinion:D

The yard I went to with Rio and that I'm at now is great, you can get on with whatever you want and use whatever tack you like and nobody bothers you, so long as the horse doesn't suffer, it's all rather open minded.

Anybody can ride in a headcollar on a reasonably schooled horse, especially in a school, it's just that nobody ever dares to try it for some reason. 'NH' and good horsemanship do amount to the same thing, all this type of approach gives you is more of an understanding of why and how.

[michelle c]

IMO I think people who ridicule other people for doing parelli or any other NH training know it works because they see the results, but dont want to admit it, and are afraid of any thing new that works better than their methods and especially if someone younger is getting better results than they can!!! also how can they give their so called 'proffesional' oppinion if they have not tried it them selves!!!!

[Cheko]

Hello! Bitta prejudice creeping in here - eg - "they see someone younger getting results"! It's nothing to do with older or younger. You either agree with NH or you dont. I totally agree with it and I use what part of it works for my pony and me. However, I have always been a kind rider in whatever style I have used. (I dont use harsh bits, I dont yank on the horse's mouth, dont use spurs or my heels (kicking looks ugly) :cool: . I just squeeze his sides. I dont use artificial aids such as martingales, dont have to. It all boils down to this horses for courses thing. If kindness is taken to its logical conclusion, as a nonhorsy friend pointed out and, if we all felt so strongly about being kind to horses, perphaps we wouldn't be riding them in the first place!!!

[Caz&Irena]

Well I'm still having a go! I was doing some suppling exercises this evening with her in the stable, as the weather is absolutely appalling at the moment!
As for the age thing I hate to say it but I was 49 today :eek:

[Jacquie]

As for the age thing I hate to say it but I was 49 today :eek:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY GILLIAN :)

As Cheko's already mentioned, NH has nothing to do with age, it's simply a personal preferene as to whether you choose to follow the 'natural' or 'normal' methods of horsemanship.

Personally, I follow the PNH system. It's helped both me and my TB overcome many obstacles and problems that where a BIG issue before we went 'natural'.

The main thing is to enjoy what your doing. :D

[cvb]

IMHO its not "NH" as such, its anything different. Try ride somewhere in a western saddle and see what happens ;)

Glad I'm at home not in a yard, I ride western and do NH - they'd think I was a complete nutter :D

[Caz&Irena]

Guess what cvb, I have a western saddle too!! I hack out in mine, I had someone say to me the other day 'why don't you get an english saddle'? In actual fact she does have an english saddle which I bought to do shows with but the thing that is annoying is questioning why ride in a western :rolleyes:
I expect I will be classed as a nutter too!!!!!

[No_Angel]

Most people also think im a nutter- most frequent term used is hippy! :rolleyes: Mostly by my boyfriend who is very BHS. He once had a go on my Trekker and didn't like it as the pommel hurt him :p but yet he wants to have a ride on my Ansur ( I think its because its expensive :rolleyes:).
I give him the choice of bitted and treed or treeless and bitless and he always chooses bitted and treed, even tho the horse stops better bitless he would rather be traditional. Im proud to be different.
I also got the 'oh, your saddle looks like a western saddle', 'thats different' 'that looks comfy' then dismiss it, or 'oh, your brave riding with out a bit'. I also got an answer of 'I was taught to ride using a bit so ill stay that way!' :rolleyes: :mad:

[michelle c]

when i mentioned the age thing, it was to do with someone at my yard, nomatter what i have done weather it is nh or other, even if im right she wont have it because she sees me still as a little child who doesnt know what they are talking about!!!!! sorry if i caused offence!!!

[Cheko]

Thanx for the apology re 'the age thing'! I'm sorry you're having a problem with an older woman at your yard regarding NH. It's a pity she is so closed minded. However she may come round (eventually) to the NH way of thinking when she sees how well your horse is going. If he consistent in this, hopefully she'll acknowledge the good work you'e doing with him.

[Esther.D]

I try to ride my pony as kindly as a I can using body language - ie - if I wish to turn right without using the rein aid, I put my weight on my righ seatbone and lightly touch is side with my left leg. He then responds appropriately.

Surely that is just correct riding, whatever route you follow? Those who don't are not 'BHS' correct either..just bad riders! Ideally, in the BHS world a horse should not be strapped down, it should be ridden in a snaffle and it should be ridden with the seat and legs and not booted or kicked. However there is a difference between what *should* be done and what is done, the same is the case in NH methods, done correctly they are great (and I do Parelli with mine) but done badly they are just as cruel, as badly done BHS methods........I have seen a cob basically flogged with a carrot stick in the name of Parelli and it made me furious, it is these things that give it a bad name, but I do feel the need to stick up for the BHS method when used 'correctly' as it certainly does not advocate cruel bits (incidentally I am not sure what kind of bits we are referring to here?), strapping horses down or booting them in the ribs just as Parelli does not advocate walloping horses with a carrot stick or Monty Roberts doesn't advocate chasing a horse round and round a pen until exhausted and terrified..unfortunately human nature being as it is they all happen :(

Personally, despite my defence of the BHS here I do use NH methods, primarily Parelli and do sometimes ride in a halter and one day will get a treeless saddle... :) Luckily the yard we are on is pretty sympathetic to NH methods.

[michelle c]

checo: thanx but its like flogging a dead horse, even when i say to her 'look how much she has changed', i get 'yes but it worked for her but it wont work on mine '!!!

how does that saying go ' you can lead a person to knowledge but you cant make them think!'

anyway i now ignore in a polite way what she thinks and get on with my training!!!!!!

[carrimclaren]

Surely that is just correct riding, whatever route you follow? Those who don't are not 'BHS' correct either..just bad riders! Ideally, in the BHS world a horse should not be strapped down, it should be ridden in a snaffle and it should be ridden with the seat and legs and not booted or kicked. However there is a difference between what *should* be done and what is done.

I actually agree with the above. I don't believe it should be a case of NH versus traditional but that every person should be left in peace to ride and train the way that they feel they should be. I do not believe that anyone should have their beliefs ridiculed or snottily put down as freedom of choice is everything. I do not fully understand NH nor have i tried it, i ride how i feel i should be riding and i try to improve with methods that i think will benefit and help my mare, this is not to say i will never try NH or parelli. On the other foot i have met one very pushy NH person who tried to force beliefs on me that i did not have nor understand so everyone is capable of having a closed mind. But i do agree that a lot of it is fear of the unknown and i don't believe that Gillian or anyone else should get persecuted for their beliefs. Stick to your guns and carry on your way and well done for ignoring the rubbish that these people are giving you. :) One of the main reasons i havent done parelli is because of the money involved as i cannot justify the cost at the moment. Maybe in the future. :)

p.s i dont do parelli or anything and my horse follows me across fields/school etc and grooms me back so i must be doing something right ;)

[tazzle22]

mmmmmmmm esther .. find myself agreeing with you yet again ;)

there are "zealots" and abusive" active in all camps .... and human nature is such that some observers will latch onto those examples as if they were general practice ...... and castigate the "training" system it is seen to represent. Also human nature is such that we feel defensive when we are apparently criticised ( even if it is only be someone doing dsomething "different" as it might been seen that the "old" method is no longer acceptable"). ... however as has been said NONE of this NH is new ... its just been given a new lable and commercialised !!!!

I have chosen "bits and pieces" over the years from many sources to see what suits my horse and I ( and my fave quote in my signature is thousands of years old from Xenophon) ... and in the end what our main "style / method" that suits is clicker ...... Taz will do ANYTHING ( including bursting balloons :eek: ) for a herbal treat !!!!

I had to use "alternative" methods when Taz arrived in my life 6 years ago well "screwed up" by someone .... whatever methods they had used and the more "modern conventional /bhs" people had failed. I was thought of as "soft" for not using a crop (that she was terrified of anyway) to stop this strong cob from barging .... and pushing her away with body language instead !!! I was though of a soft because I treated her for standing still instead of "insisting" etc. Excpet now I I have a hprse that will CHOOSE to do as I request and stand still at liberty while teens vault onto her !!!

From a horse terrified of everything I now have a horse that will ride /drive through town or country traffic !!! ( and in an open bitless bridle !!!)

Of course, when your horse stands quietly, trailer loads, is clipped, seen by the dentist etc etc etc calmly - then you are LUCKY to have found such a horse

I was actually told exactly that by a carriage driver when I was saying I drove Taz in an open bridle and she did not spook at carriage wheels or whip (remember this was ha horse that was abused with a whip ;) ) because I had shown her they were no threat rather than hide them from her !!!

So

whenever someone critricises what is working for you you can either quietly smile and say that it is what suits you and your horse thank you..... or offer to explain the principles if they are interesed , read book and offer to show them that and the video ..... or just hold your head up high and let the results speak for themselves.

You could say it is something you are exploring and it may or may not suit ... a bit like people trying different disciplines, bits, saddles etc ... you try and find out what suits yuo both ..... just because one saddle does not fit your horse does not mean its bad ..... same with training methods !!!