she's pulling my arms out of their sockets

[Loopslou]

In a walk in the sandschool Amber is pulling my arms out of their sockes. Constantly tossing her head and trying to get her head between her knees, then in a trot she's the opposite, her head carriage is fairly high and she's concentrating so much she isn't gubby.

Is this just boredom? Is it a "young horse" thing? The trainer who backed her last year kept going on about how gubby she was when she tired but she's doing it all the time in the sandschool at a walk. She doesn't do it when we hack out though.

Any tips as I'm at a loss - mouth/back/tack all fine by the way.

[kianjoseph]

It is probably because she is quite young. I was out with my horse and an instructor yesterday and she (the horse) kept waving her head about, and pulling my arms off (muscles are killing today!). My instructor told me it was because she didn't like the fact that I had a good contact and she was trying to dislodge me. He told me to hold her reins so I kept hold of her whilst giving her a crack on the shoulder with the whip.

I have to say I didn't like this, I don't like using my whip at all, but as he is an instructor I have to assume he is more knowledgeable about these things than me. Anyway she did do it less, so maybe he was right.

Have you asked an instructor to watch you riding?

[Loopslou]

I've really had a crisis of confidence lately and was thinking of having some one on one lessons with an instructor who freelances.

Amber does buck too and I do smack her on the bum each time (I carry a schooling whip in the sandschool) and she does stop. She didn't buck tonight when I was on her but gave a good few when I lunged her. I wonder should I give her a tap when she does this. I worry because my older horse would lean on your hands a bit and wonder do I take up too much contact for her likely but she's as fresh as a daisy at the moment so I don't feel confident enough to ride her with a loose rein with very little contact.

It is only in a walk and when I start to ask for circles and bend so it may be a bit of resistence to more concentrated work! In a trot she's fine if a little rushed but again I think that's a freshness thing! Spring grass has a lot to answer for :D

Can I ask how old your horse is?Amber is coming up on 4 1/2 and I'm trying to school her up more this summer as she was well rested over the winter.
It is hard to give them a smack but definitely with the bucking, as soon as I smack her she doesn't do it again, if I don't smack her she's up in the air again nearly straight away! Kids eh!!! :D

[hackedoff]

Dear God...........*speechless*

[Loopslou]

can I ask why you are speechless Hacked off?

[hApPiNeSs]

Another tip you could try is when she leans down, go down with her( but dont take your weight out of the saddle!). Keep the contact constant throughout (dont be pulled!), no matter where her head is. This will teach her that leaning down achieves nothing, no loss of contact, pulling you out of the saddle etc and she will stop eventually :)

I think smacking her when she bucks is a good idea. A lot of people say dont use the whip as a punichment, but sometimes its called for! :)

[Loopslou]

thanks Happiness. I was told by loads of people to give a smack when she bucks and to be honest, she only does it when she's feeling full of herself or is in season (she is a real mareish mare) and giving her a flick with the whip does stop her.

I''m not so sure about giving her a smack when she puts her head down as she has had lots of mouth problems but both my vet and dentist are saying that the problems are solved and that if she still gets on she's just trying it on with me!

I will try and stay in my seat but stretch down with her. It does only appear to be when she is tiring (or possibly bored). The laughable thing is, she doesn't fuss with her head at all when trotting or hacking out! She's a daftie but generally very good and quiet. My main problem is loss of confidence but I've been diagnosed with osteo arthritis in my back and since then (and a bad accident in October), I've turned into a big jessie!

So, with the help of my sister in law and half a bottle of brandy! I'm determined to get through and get my confidence back. Schooling isn't a huge issue to be honest, I prefer hacking out but I'd rather have her going well and settled before any really bad habits set it. I just really wanted to know it was a "young horse thing".

I'm seriously thinking of some short one on one lessons with her, I think from my point of view it will help me correct my bad habits of riding a horse for 14 yeas who leans on your hands!

[hApPiNeSs]

i think i lesson would be a good idea. A decent instructer will be able to tell whats going on more than we can without seeing her :)

ps - it probably is 'justa young horse thing' :D

[Loopslou]

a young horse versus an old and decrepid rider :D

[madarab]

can you do any schooling when youre out on a hack? circles and serpentines and that kind of thing if theres room anywhere??

she probably just wants to go and do something fun instead of schooling! :rolleyes: try lots of walk - trot transitions too if she doesnt do it in trot? (might slow her down a bit too!) :)

[Loopslou]

I try to do serpentines and circles when out hacking and loads of half halts.

She is full of go at the moment so last night we lunged first, let her burn off some steam (not gubby at all on the lunge) and then when I got on I just let her trot and then I kept bringing her back to a walk and then back up to a trot again but then once I started more concentrated circle work, down went the head! I know its not pain and I know she loves to work as well so I'm thinking either its me(!) or its tiredness/boredom. At least I have her going forwards and she is totally controllable when hacking and nothing really phases her (except for mad cows running down the field at her!).

I'll keep plugging away doing loads of upwards and downwards transistions and try and keep her mind occupied too. I will definitely make sure that when she pulls I go with her and keep a contact and see if that makes any difference (oh me poor back :D )

[hackedoff]

I think you know why sweetie.

[hApPiNeSs]

why? i dont understand... :(

[Loopslou]

is it because I'm a cr*p rider and shouldn't be allowed near horses hackedoff? :D

I know you are a big believer in Dr Cook's do you think I should try one??

[eventerbabe]

i do not condone smacking a horse for bucking. my horse has always put in the odd playful buck and i have NEVER been told to smack him. i think its very unfair, particularly if the bucking is just because of youthful exhuberance.

i think you need help from a good instructor. she sounds to be doing an awful lot for a 4 1/2 year old. when my horse was that age he did 3-4 days a week, either a 15min schooling session or a short hack. sounds to me like this head down thing is because she's stretching to get away from something. why not try giving her a long rein and keep riding forward with your leg??

EDIT: what bit is she in??

[hackedoff]

I would never accuse ANYONE of being a cr*p rider!!! I am the Queen of the Cr*p Seat :D Actually eventerbabe said it all for me ( cor this being quiet stuff is good innit?)

[Loopslou]

Amber does only do 3/4 sessions a week, 3 of them hacking on a long rein. She is in a happy mouth straight eggbut. I've tried many bits including a hackamore. I'm edging towards Hackedoff's views of the Dr Cook and may try one out. Anything is worth a try.

I'm not one for smacking, anytime she used to buck I pushed her on but then I was told my a trainer to smack her which I was doing but she's so switched on I know its either going to make her buck more when I smack or she's bucking because she's antipating a smack.

[hApPiNeSs]

i dont like hitting horses, im not cruel

bucking is a vice. If a young horse bucks, his rider does nothing about it, he will learn that bucking is a great way of being evasive and unseating his rider. If he gets a short, sharp smack, he will think 'oh, hang on a minute, i wont do that again' and it will stop it turning into something more violent. Loopslou has already said that it works, and i would personally rather see a horse get punished for naughtiness than see a rider thrown on the floor because no-one has bothered to do anything about these 'high spirits' If Happy ever dared buck she would get a slap behind my leg. I can see your point of view, but I see bucking as a bad vice, not playfullness :o

*dont all jump on me please* :o

[eventerbabe]

how exactly is bucking naughtiness when its a young, fresh horse?? i've never come across an instructor (and i have had 5 different ones in my time owning toby) who advocates smaking when a horse bucks. the horse may well start associating a smack with a buck, then you have a problem. the best solution is to just ride through it. do you smack a horse when it rears or spooks?? i know i certainly don't.

Loopsolu, i'd just give her her head and ride her on, at least that will save your arms for the time being!! have you tried a bit with rollers?? i'm sure once you get lessons, this will get sorted out :)

[hackedoff]

Ok, try this- horses flee from pain so what is the smack going to accomplish in the long run? My 6 year old (how time flies!) only ever bucks out of sheer high spirits, maybe once or twice a month, I dont consider he has a 'vice'. Horses 'talk' with their bodies but humans have trouble 'hearing'! So the buck is her SHOUTING, also consider this the buck is not aimed at you it is a release of something within the horse like when you are really frustrated or p*ssed off and go RAUUUUGGH! (or is that just me lol).
I hope you get to the bottom of this, LL in a way that brings you closer together.
Horse Hippie signing off.......

[eventerbabe]

brilliant hackedoff :) , you explained it perfectly.

[Jazz]

I think as a young horse Amber is just testing the boundaries as all young creatures do. I think that Loopslou is correct to punish her as she needs to learn that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable. Before I am jumped on, I do not like hitting horses. In fact I have been told that I am too soft.

[Tootsie4U]

How about the obvious question?

Why do horses lean and pull on the bit?!?!?!?!?!?!

The two most usual reasons are:

1) The bit doesnt fit. Either the size of the bit is wrong, the conformation of the bit doesnt suit the horses' mouth or her teeth hurt her.

or

2) Because the rider leans too! A horse cannot lean on air. A horse will not lean on a good elastic giving contact either.

The head shaking, yanking her head down, and leaning on the bit tells me she's not happy with the contact from the rider. If your other horse does it too, its very likely the contact you ride with isnt accomodating your horses. Changing bits isnt the answer.

At a walk and canter, the horse's head is mobile. It bobs with the motion. If your hands are not following that movement, being elastic, then each time the head bobs, the reins go taught and she's being smacked in the mouth. If it goes on for long enough, the horse never gets any release from this and will begin to show signs that your mare is showing. They begin to toss their head, pull down, yank and lean on the bit to try to eleviate the pain.

Without seeing you ride, I can't say thats 100% it, but its my best guess based on what you've said so far.

And as far as bucking goes - I teach my horses that bucking is not allowed at all in my presence. Its dangerous, its disrespectful and I find its just easier to have a standard. Whether its play or not, they're not allowed to do it while mom's around.

[Loopslou]

that's what I wonder Tootsie, was I too fixed in my hands? I went for some one on one lessons at a riding school last year for a few months (until I got trampled on a got fairly messed up with Amber - field accident - long story!). The instructor said the only thing I needed to change was keeping my hands turned out (bad habit, kept turning my hands in as if on a motobike :o ) and keeping my elbows in as well (funky chicken was how she describled me :D )

The one thing she did say to me was - "oh, you ride a horse that leans on your hands" I said yes - Flash is laminitic and has had a lot of front feet problems and over the last few years as she has aged she has started to be more on the forehand - I've had a trainer look at her and he says at the start of a schooling session and hack that she does lean but then does lighten in the hands.

As regards her mouth and teeth - both vet and dentist have checked and corrected her teeth and both have checked all my bits (such a collection!) for fit and said they were all fine.

I might give her a longer/looser rein in walk, as I say it only happens in the sandschool and not when hacking but then I feel safe out hacking at the moment - I feel tense in the sandschool as I've lost my confidence a bit. She doesn't pull when lunged at a walk but does when my sister in law rides her but then, if I have been too heavy on her mouth she maybe is antipating discomfort.

Any ideas/tips/exercises on how to lighten my hands more? I want to try as many things as possible before this becomes a huge dangerous issue.

On the bucking, well, I'm starting to lunge her for a few mins before I ride so that should get any high jinx out of her but again the "to smack or not to smack" discussions could probably go on forever. I just want whats best for Amber and myself and want a safe, reliable obedient horse who continues to want to work and is relaxed in her work as well.

[Tootsie4U]

You do need to fix the positon of your hands. Make it a priority, first and foremost. The leverage you have when your hands are flat is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than if you're carrying them as you're supposed to. You will ride heavy handed and not even realize it. Keep those thumbs on top!

I've got an exercise for you that will help both you and your horse. As long as she is sound, it'll also help her on-the-forehand issues as well.

What I would do if I was helping you learn, is to have you ride on the buckle. That way, you can't lean back on her and if she does go to fight the contact because she's anticipating, it wont be there and her efforts will be useless. It will take her awhile to realize the pain is not going to come - so it may take a while to see results, but they will be there!

The key is though, that you have to make sure she's plenty forward for this exercise. The reason being; a horse cannot, *CANNOT* be on the forehand and heavy if he's coming through the back end properly. Its physically impossible. So, get her moving so much so that you will see a dramatic swing in her shoulders and someone on the ground will see a dramatic increase in the angle of her hock. She will be stepping under considerably as well, but its not as good an indicator as the other two. If you feel she's rushing, check your balance. Do not touch the reins, resist that urge! Use your seat to guide the rythm of the gait and as long as you make sure you're centered in your saddle, she'll pick herself up. She has to, or she'll fall.

She will realize that she has freedom in her mouth again and will relax into this exercise. She will begin to trust the contact and you. She'll stop fighting and become much more happier. You will learn to ride independantly. You will stop balancing on the reins. You will develop the idea that you dont need your reins. And at that point, you two have become willing partners.

For me, the hardest part of this was letting go. I micromanage my horse and I had big issues trusting him. But, of all the exercises I've ever done with him (in lesson and out of lesson) this single exercise has fixed so many problems. It serves to help so many issues. And believe it or not, once you've got this down, its the first step to teaching your horse to collect and move in an outline. How about that! :D

[Loopslou]

so when you say buckle you mean hold my reins at the buckle? Would it be ok to do this exercise on the lunge for the first time? I do feel a nervous nellie at the moment and I KNOW that isn't helping.

I can trot my older horse on a long rein with little contact and ride her totally with my seat and legs but then I've been riding her for 14 years, I just don't feel confident enough to do that with Amber but I should feel confident enough. I just wonder should I try your exercise but on the lunge first off just so my nerves don't hit me?

[Tootsie4U]

The buckle is ideal, but if you need the peace of mind of holding it shorter, ok, BUT there has to be absolutely NO contact on her mouth at all.

Under saddle lunge work is for you, not the horse. Its good for you to fix your issues, but you also need to retrain her.

In that case, I'd suggest practicing this exercise on your other horse so you get the feel of what its like. You will feel like a fish out of water at first, so maybe its best to try it on something you're already confident riding. Its not wasted time, because you'll develop an independant seat and wont rely on your reins - something your mare will greatly need from you when you start with her.

In the meantime, if it were me, I'd get off my mare and use this time to establish your relationship some more from the ground. People dont like to do groundwork, but I tell you its a huge bond builder and when things start going right, it'll increase your confidence with her ten fold. Groundwork is never spoiled. First matter of business is to retrain her to the bit by doing some simple 'give to the bit' exercises. That will teach her to soften and respond much better to the reins (You can look for 'how to's" here on NR - there should be a few threads).

If you do all this, both you and your horses will be on a road to better living. I can pretty much guarantee it :)

[Loopslou]

Thanks for all the advice guys, its all been great.

I will try the no contact exercises this weekend and see what happens ;)

[kianjoseph]

my horse is somewhere between 12 and 20 (long story!), so she's certainly not a youngster! She bucked me off a while ago and I really hurt my back, this was because her mates were going for their tea, definitely naughty behaviour! On wednesday she nearly had me under a car with her napping, half of me feels she may have been scared, half of me agrees with the instructors that she was trying it on.

I spoke to another instructor today about the smacking thing and she said the same, she said it is dangerous to allow a horse to get away with behaviour like that, and you have to be prepared to smack them, I also got told to smack on the shoulder if horse is playing up following a spook! I understand the reasoning by eventerbabe that if they are scared, why scare them more, however several instructors i have had, have advocated this tap on the shoulder to move them on and in my case have been proved right.

I'm certainly not into people that are whip happy, and in fact I am probably too soft really, but I have experienced my horse being dangerous but responding well to the whip. I also feel I have a lot to learn and still get advice and lessons from instructors regularly. It is very easy to judge others if your horse is calm and easy to manage, somebody on my yard hasn't ever used a whip on her horse in 10 years, but has had to use it on mine when she took her out in traffic!

[Loopslou]

I think its the same as the smacking your kids issue! I was at a county show the year before last and saw kids smacking their ponies as they jumped, smacked once they landed and so on and was horrified because of the confusing issues. Someone who is whip happy should be whipped themselves!

[hApPiNeSs]

HO and EB -yep, i see your point. :)

Dont think i go round hitting my horse because i dont, i love her to bits :(

Of course I would NEVER hit a horse if I was unsure why it was bucking/rearing. If it was bucking from pain then I would sort the problem out. But nastiness in a horse is something I will not tolerate, whether it be biting, kicking or bucking (sheerly to unseat its rider)

Anyway, Im going to shut up now before I make any more enemies :o :mad:

[Loopslou]

Happiness, I don't think you've made any enemies sweetie! Everyone is entitled to their point of view. Yes, if a horse does something wrong out of nastiness it should be punished and its up to the owner who knows it best to deal with it in the best way they find works. ;)

[hApPiNeSs]

yes, thats a good way of putting it. :)

[Loopslou]

I should be a diplomat :D

hope I can ride tomorrow, my wrist is swollen up really badly - I fell of my chair in work this afternoon trying to tie my shoelace while having the phone hooked under my chin - there! I bet ya that gives you all a laugh :D :D

[horseyrose]

I agree with a lot of what Tootsie has said, your horse will only be able to pull if you give her something to pull against. I would try and ride on a longer rein, perhaps you could build up to riding on the buckle if you are a bit nervous? Try and resist the temptation to hold her head up for her, I know that is easier said than done!

I think the bucking thing really depends on why your horse is bucking. I used to ride a young horse who would buck out of high spirits and also because he was unbalanced in the school and needed to sort his legs out. I was advised to just ignore it, sit up and kick on. Horses find it a lot harder to buck (and also plough along on the forehand) if they are going forward. Personally, I prefer to ride through any misbehaviour before going for the whip (depending on the circumstances) but I'm sure you and your instructor know your horse best.

Good luck, I hope you get it sorted! :D

[Loopslou]

we had a FANTASTIC session today :D

She is coming into season but didn't behave at all mareishly. No bucking at all, not even a hint!

Wendy my sister in law popped me on the lunge and I rode her totally with my legs and held on right at the end of the reins, no contact whatsoever. She still put her head down as if to seek the contact at first but I just pushed her on with my legs, I felt totally confident and balance and even managed to trot as well. I definitely going to be doing that at least once a week instead of a full schooling session, I felt it did the pair of us more good than anything.

I rode her then around the school but have noticed more when she putting her head down - when she wants to get to wherever Wendy and Laura are in the sandschool - complete evasion of the bit to nap over to them for a cuddle - honestly, she is such a suck. She did rush off with me a bit in a trot at one point but I felt a bit unbalance and know that I freaked a little, after that she was perfect, was mouthing really well, head not too high or low and she was really working under me. Circles were no problem but she was exhausted poor lamb.

All in all a great 1/2 hours work where I felt in control and that I was achieving something. On the occasions that she did try and get her head down I followed through and kept the contact so she then just gave up and worked really well in my hands, I made sure I pushed my hands forward and gave her to her loads so I wasn't restricting her at all (I hope).

Listen guys, I couldn't have done all that today without all your brilliant advice, thanks so much, I feel so happy and confident today :D :D

[Jay.o]

Could you give her few days off when shes in season??

I know my mare was awful when she was riden in season, without a supplement. Her overies swell up and she is actually in pain when ridden. I give her a few days ff and just pamper her, she really does appreciate I think.

[Loopslou]

She does appear to more sensitive to the leg when in season but once she is out the road for a hack her behaviour is impeccable. I used to have to rest my older horse Flash when she was in season as she became terrible after losing her foal and was quite unmanageable. I give stroppy mare to all three, last month we couldn't ride any of them at all as they were like mad things. I'm playing it by ear, if I find she doesn't want to work when in season then I won't work her. Its only now that she's backed that I'm starting to notice her seasons so I'm still trying to judge.

I'm just on such a high now as she was brilliant today :D

[horseyrose]

Glad you had such a great ride! :D

[Loopslou]

hopefully our hack tomorrow will be just as rewarding

[hackedoff]

Well done LL!!!!

[Loopslou]

hacked her out today with one other horse, she lead the way and was a bit nervy but is in season so I can't really complain. My sister in law then hacked her out while I walked on foot beside her with no other horses and she was a bit nappy but nothing major. She really relaxed and was at all gubby either! A good weekends work I have to say!

[FreedomStar]

sounds good! Sorry for the late reply, I just want to point this out:

Amber does only do 3/4 sessions a week, 3 of them hacking on a long rein

So you don't ride her every day, that's good, however, most of the time you ride you hack out on a long rein. That might be part of the reason she's pulling her head down at the walk, because it's so much easier to do so. She's used to being ridden most of the time with a long rein, so in the school when you use a contact, she's just not very balanced. So I suggest that you start with about 10 minutes of walk and trot with a long rein and encourage her to stretch her neck to the ground. That'll loosen her up, and it'll also have her a bit more aware and alert and she might not resist as much because she's had a chance to let her head out long and low and she's stretched out.

[Loopslou]

thanks Freedom Star, I'll try with more contact on a hack and see if that improves things.

[carrimclaren]

Do tend to ride abit like horseyrose says. I tend to try and ride through any high jinx instead of getting the whip out but i sometimes feel i'm probably a little soft with her because as a lot of people say "don't hit it if you can't sit it" and i certainly don't hit mine that often because it sure as can be provokes a grump attack. But as Loops said, each to their own method of training/teaching/schooling their horse. I can't put anyone down for their way of riding as mine's certainly not perfect (long long way off) :D No ones method is 100% right no matter how much we think it is.

I do feel though that i was right in telling my mare off the other day as there was 3 of us cantering across a meadow and she was happily cantering in the middle when the one at the back tried to come alongside. She obviously took offence at this and started to canter sideways and buck and lash out. Now in my book this is bad behaviour as it's very dangerous as the girl on the pony nearly got a hind hoof in her face several times. I managed to sit the bucks but i did give her a slap on the shoulder for being a witch as it is unacceptable behaviour to me. I cannot risk a) being bucked off or b) a horse or rider getting injured.

[Loopslou]

My older horse hates any other horses coming up alongside her and I to tend to barge her a little with my voice but have never had to slap her for it but in a situation like yours I think it does perhaps need something stronger that voice or riding through.