Possibly laminitic - what else can I do?

[alwaysfallingof]

Because I don't know Max's history, I don't know whether he is laminitic or not, so I'm assuming that he is. Since he's been out on the spring grass he suddenly piled on a lot of weight, and so I'm getting paranoid.
At the moment he has no hard feed, is turned out at night muzzled, and kept in during the day with some well soaked hay.
Is there anything else I can do? (As of this sunday he will also be on a vitamin supplement, I just need to go get some)
How long, ideally, should I soak his hay for? Presumably longer soaking would take out some of the soluble sugars that can cause laminitis, so is it the longer the better?

[artemis]

About hay soaking - it depends what you read! Some reccommend 24 hours! I usually do it for about 1/2 to 1 hour so that the sugars are washed out, but not all the nutrients. I feel that any longer it might go "off" in the summer.

[Big Ears]

if you soak the hay too long the water becomes almost like sewage sludge and not very nice. i tended to only soak mine for an hour or steam it in a dustbin but this was for dust allergy rather than laminitis.

the only other thing to do with him is to electric fence a small area and keep him in that, if it is practical where you are, and move the boundaries every few weeks.

my mare had laminitis last year and she is 23 hours a day in a small area and given 1 hours grazing per day. even on this small area she is not losing weight, though we throw her hay monring and evening but she is on pretty restricted diet. the area she is on is about 2/3 of a sand school and it has been grazed all winter, so was pretty short by then

[eventerbabe]

ok, i cannot emphasise this enough, if you suspect laminitis call the vet asap. it is a matter of life and death. we don't soak our hay, we steam it for only 5 minutes. he should be getting 1% of his bodyweight in hay, maybe a bit less since he's out at night. BUT its important not to starve them as this will only make them worse. a probiotic would be much more useful than a vitamin supplement, it will keep the hind gut moving and functioning well. its here laminitis starts with a build up of toxins.

You can EASILY tell a lamanitic pony by their feet. there will be rough ridges on their feet produced by varying hoof growth rates.

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks for the replies :)

ok, i cannot emphasise this enough, if you suspect laminitis call the vet asap. it is a matter of life and death
Well yes, obviously, but I'm taking a pre-emptive strike now and he doesn't have *any* symptoms at all, he's just a bit overweight. We lost one of our RDA ponies to laminitis last year, so I *know* it's a matter of life and death.

You can EASILY tell a lamanitic pony by their feet. there will be rough ridges on their feet produced by varying hoof growth rates.
I asked the farrier when I first bought him if there were any signs of laminitis, and he said that it's hard to tell and that he wouldn't like to say, (he definitely hasn't had it in the last 3 years)
I've tried him on every probiotic supplement I can get my hands on...he won't touch the stuff! He won't even take it if I hide it in apples, or mix it with garlic! Even if there's just a pinchful of supplement in some feed he won't touch it...strange pony!
And I thought that laminitis had been linked to a deficiency in dietary magnesium, so a vitamin supplement would help.

I don't have the facilities to steam hay...so general consensus seems to be soaking for about an hour, thanks :)

Big Ears, I wish I could use strip grazing, but because I'm at a livery yard I have no say in what happens to the fields :(

[Big Ears]

the only way you can tell if they have had laminitis is x raying - Rosie had not, prevoiusly, had laminitis but she was a typical candidate as she was a big fat cob - however when she was x rayed there was slippering on her feet which showed previous laminitic damage, even though she has no rings on her feet, and had not previously been treated for it.

so that is the only way you would really be sure. I have two identical cobs, one has had it one hasn't - they are both 15hh identikit girls but there we are Rosie has it and Molly doesn't (well not in 12 years).

it is such an unpredictable disease that they can get it suddenly even the best of management. I think you can only do what you can.

[eventerbabe]

to soak hay get a large plastic bucket from B&Q they are only a fiver so not expensive put the haynet in there, pour on a kettle of water and cover with a plastic sack. leave for 5-6mins, very easy.

A good farrier will know if a horse has had laminitis due to distortion of the hoof capsule. i've discussed this at length with my own farrier. or get x-rays done. costly but well worth it as your farrier will be able to work from them to get the best trim/angle on the horses feet.

Re the probiotic, have you tried Dengie XP? just bung half a scoop in their feed. we've not had any probs with it. it smells quite alright, cetainly wouldn't put them off.

[eventerbabe]

it is such an unpredictable disease that they can get it suddenly even the best of management. I think you can only do what you can.

well said big ears. i hate the attitude a majority of horseowners have when you tell them your horse/pony has laminitis. even with absolutely meticulous management, if a horse is predisposed to it then they will get it but people always like to point fingers and say its the owners fault.

[Pickles]

My mare had laminitis last year and is currently on box rest after I saw the early signs of it.

She was slightly 'pottery' on her front feet but by the time the vet arrived she was sound but had a raised pulse.

Do you know how to take her digital pulse as this is probably the earliest sign of an attack?

If you are just concerned as she has gained weight I think you are doing everything right. I personally don't soak hay, but others approve of it.

You may want to do the sums and work out her body weight so you can weight out her hay and get her to slowly lose the weight she has gained.

[eventerbabe]

Sorry, just had another thought. Bowen therapy might help, my mare is having it for the after affects of laminitis but coz Bowen flushed toxins from their system, it may be benificial to try it pre-emptively.

[alwaysfallingof]

Ok...I'm now very confused as to whether he's likely to have had it before or not...

I check his digital pulse frequently, and have a good idea of what "normal" is for him.
I've tried Dengie XP, won't touch it - he's such a strange beastie!
There isn't a Bowen therapist in the South East - I had a look after hearing Showjumper's glowing reports of what it did to Dolly :)

[eventerbabe]

i think x-rays are the way to go to clear up whether or not he has had laminitis previously.

have you looked into founderguard?? that claims to ward off laminitis attacks but only when combined with good management. you can only buy it from vets under licence and its £60 a tub but anything is worth a try.

will he eat blue chip?? their lammy light contains a probiotic. the other ingredients may disguise it quite well.

[cvb]

Hi

Just to say that there is some recent research which indicates that horses which have previous had, or are prone to, or have laminitis have a higher level of free radicals, and that, as a result, use of anti-oxidants to "mop up" the free radicals can help.

[alwaysfallingof]

That's really interesting! :)
So I've got to "detox" the pony?!! :p (or is that removing toxic substances rather than oxidising substances, so what I really want to do is "de-ox" him? :p )

[cvb]

yeah - I have this image of them sipping green tea :rolleyes:

But Duds is on Formula4Feet which has anti-ox in it.

There's also something I read recently about salts... will see if I can dig it out again... from another discussion forum...

[cvb]

Ok - this is copied from another discussion forum, and popped up in the middle of a conversation about barefoot shoeing... I don't know the author but thought it worth sharing....Magnesium. I have had tremendous success myself and reccommending to others that if you feed magnesium oxide with vitamin B6 to horses/ponies either at risk from laminitis or immediatedly they go down with it you can help prevent grass laminitis or "cure" it within 12 hours. The science behind it is very sound, in so much as grass laminitis happens when the grass is growing very fast and the magnesium is not fixed in the chloroplasts and is therefore not available to the horses. In cattle it will lead to grass staggers but horses get laminitis. The magnesium will lower the cortisol in the blood stream as the two are interlinked as cortisol goes up so the magnesium goes down and vise versa. It is particularly important in Cushinoid horses as they produce too much cortisol hence their sussceptibility to laminitis. Also if the system is low in magnesium the blood platelets release their seratonin which is then lost to the system this causes the blood capiliaries to become susceptible to the effects of circulating endotoxins. This does not happen if the system has sufficient magnesium.

I get it from the health food stores and it is manufactured by FSC and is
called Magnesium 500. Each capsule contains 500mg of magnesium with Vit B6 (this helps the absorption also the finer the particle size the better the
absorption). I pull the capsule appart and sprinkle the powder on their feed. I feed 500mg per day as a preventative measure and 1000 -2000mg to control an attack of laminitis. It is very cheap #9.99 for 90 capsules and easy to administer. Every one I have reccommended this to has had much success.

The other nutritional support particularly for Cushingoid horses is
Tyrosine, an essential amino acid, which is the building block for dopamine
which is deficient in these horses. In my experience feeding tryosine
300 -500mg per day improved well being, gets rid of the unsightly fatty lumps and reduces the muscle wastage. I do not think it will halt the progress of the disease unless you can remove the animal from clover containing pastures but it certainly helps their general health and attitude. Once again it is cheap. Solgar make it and you can get it from Holland and Barrett.

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks for that cvb, that makes a lot of sense. Just out of interest, as a chemist, I wonder why it's solely the oxide that they're talking about....?
I can't believe I was actually right when I said something about a magnesium deficiency! :o
*runs off to Holland and Barrett to investigate Mg supplements* (and I'm serious, I'm going NOW!!) :)

[eventerbabe]

you have to be REALLY careful feeding straight minerals as an overload of them will CAUSE laminitis. particularly selenuim. feeding something like formula4feet will give him all the minerals he needs :)

[cvb]

ours get salt in their feed, and a salt lick in the field - which they all seem to use. But when we got a special "lami-guard" lick, they weren't interested :rolleyes:

But I guess that the formula4feet and balancer that our ex-laminitic gets probably do the necessary.

[eventerbabe]

my vet says 99% of these so called "laminitis" supplements on the market are a complete waste of time. its purely companies trying to play on owners fears and make money. in his opinion, the only ones worth feeding are formula4feet and founderguard. one well known laminitis supplement i know of definately does not work coz a friends horse is on it and went down with 2 bouts within a month :( but thereagain, nothing will prevent it if they are predisposed to it.

EDIT: cvb, i've been looking at the lami-guard licks, so they aren't worth bothering with?? bonnie likes a lick in her stable and i'd rather she had that than a lickit, which is way too sugary.

[cvb]

we check out what The Laminitis Trust are saying.

One of the supposed "laminitis" products on the market has molasses in it :eek: So our chap came off that one pdq !

So do check the label ;)

[eeyore]

i am in a simular situation - i haven't asked his previous owner if he's laminitic, so we've just taken some precautions anyway!

he's on two hard feeds a day (he needs it anyway because he needs the garlic and biotin) but we've also got him on Speedi-Beet and a couple of other things.
speedi-beat has some kinda association with the laminitus trust thingy..

this doesn't have much to do with anything but i'm just curious.. how come you have your horse in during the day and out at night??

oh and p.s i just make a large haynet and spin it around under the tap to make sure it's soaked through each side, then we hang it up so it can drip dry! :D
it's usually hung there for about.. 9 hours! :o (we do it in the morning and i get it indoors when i come up in the evening).

[alwaysfallingof]

Hi Eeyore. Max is in during the day and out at night because the fields are open for turnout from about 2pm to 8am the following morning, but I don't want him to have that much grass so leave it till 7/8 ish in the evening to turn him out. :)

[eventerbabe]

this doesn't have much to do with anything but i'm just curious.. how come you have your horse in during the day and out at night??


because the sugars in the grass (which cause laminitis) are lower during the night than during the day.

its the Laminitis trust, founded by the leading expert robert eustace www.laminitis.org

[cvb]

oh and p.s i just make a large haynet and spin it around under the tap to make sure it's soaked through each side, then we hang it up so it can drip dry! :D
it's usually hung there for about.. 9 hours! :o (we do it in the morning and i get it indoors when i come up in the evening).

eeyore, why are you soaking it ? I just ask cos there's some research that if you let them dry out again, you may as well not have soaked :( (in terms of pollen and allergies etc)

I figure you are still going to be washing some of the "grot" out. But we don't soak too far ahead for our COPD chap.

[eeyore]

i just soak ours because i tend to think some of our bales are slightly dusty.
he doesn't have an allergy or anything, but i just think it's a good idea. prevents some respiratory problems anyway!

and oky doky alwaysfallingof and eventerbabe :D
makes sense! strange field timetable though!

[senjj]

Hi all,

The piece quoted above was sent to me by Dr Sue Kempson of Edinburgh Vet School. Which site did you copy it from cvb?

Justine

[cvb]

Thanks Justine - its better for info like this to have its proper "credit" !! Have pm'd you about where I saw it posted.

[Esther.D]

You can EASILY tell a lamanitic pony by their feet. there will be rough ridges on their feet produced by varying hoof growth rates.

depends when they last had laminitis though...I have two laminitics and neither of them have ridges...that is because they have not had laminitis for the last 3 years..but they are still prone to it we have just managed to keep them from getting it. They never had much in the way of a ridge either as I caught it very early before it got bad. So that is not always a reliable indicator.

[Pickles]

I agree about lack of ridges not being a sure way of telling that a horse hasn't had laminitis.

My mare had a bad bout last year, she could hardly move when it started and her pedal bone rotated. With quick treatment and good management she didn't show the signs on the upper side of her hooves, just the under side as her white line was far too thick.

[cccaz]

Dana Meier has excellent results treating and maintaning lamanitic horses. She runs a equine rehab center. You might want to contact her. She glady shares her treatment plans. If you are intrested in her techniques, please email me for her addy because i don't know if she wants it posted.

[Megans mum]

I have been feeding Magnosite' which looks like red sand and is only about £8 a cwt my mare hovers on the brink of laminitis every year' since she had it as a two year old' she has pills from the homeopathic vet too' they are in a short grass field in the day and out on sparse grazing with hay at night' its a worry all the time I must admit'