Anyone coping with Navicular?

[rusk]

My horse is supposed to be showing signs of Navicular. Is there anthing I can get him to ease it and maybe still do a bit of work?

[Dizzy]

You need your vet and blacksmith to work together, and follow thier advise. Hope things improve, all the best for your horse and you.

[Unbridled]

One of the people at my barn has a horse with navicular. She's an 11 year old kid who bought the horse from her instructor and it turned out the instructor knew the horse had navicular and didn't tell them. She should've had a vet check done, but she's a kid and the woman was someone she trusted so...

Well, anyway...What they're doing for Sunny is shoeing her with shoes that circle all the way around the hooves (as opposed to being "U" shaped). I think the shoes are called Eggbars? They give the hoof more support than regular shoes. Sunny's owner also gives her Bute every day, which has to be given several hours before Sunny is ridden so it has time to take effect. They're also giving her some supplements but I'm not sure what those are, sorry. But Sunny is still very much in work. Her owner rides her up the mountain trails a couple of times a week, often for several hours at a time. Sometimes Sunny will come up lame the next day, if she is ridden hard, but her owner is a kid. An adult rider would probably be more conscious of how much work the horse could take and avoid the lameness. (Not that Sunny's owner is unkind, she's just a kid and prone to forgetting to take it easy on her horse).

Anyway, like Dizzy said, call your vet and your farrier. The vet can definitively diagnose the problem (if it hasn't been already) and prescribe bute for pain if necessary. The vet can also advise you on what supplements you can give your horse. The farrier can shape the hooves and shoe the horse in such a way as to help accomodate for the problem.

Good luck! :)

[lynz+ollie]

yer get yoyur farrier to have a look, most can at least control it. my friends intermediate event horse got it and had to stop eventing at that level but is doing the 3DE this week with special shoes with gel packs. so dont worry to much, if you farrier has a look soon something should be able to be done.

[MelanieD]

Loads of useful info here:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line_disease.htm#Navicular

[Yann]

The first step would be to get a definitive diagnosis, I have a friend who suspected navicular for her Tb and it turned out to be the result of pain from poor foot balance, ie long toes and underslung heels. If it is then I have heard a lot of positive things about going barefoot in navicular cases, the Pete Ramey article posted by Melanie D goes into this in some depth. It's certainly something I'd be taking a serious look at in your position. Good luck.

[Big Ears]

my friend's horse was diagnosed with it age 7 and was in work until age 17. good shoeing, bute, helped him along.

but she only walked on hard ground, and only did any faster work if it was very soft, so she looked after him.

you will probably have to be careful what you do with him, in terms of ground, pace etc, to avoid concussion, but he should be able to remain in work.

[andreaB]

my first horse was diagnosed with it 4 weeks after i bought him!! (he had passed a vetting) it was vey much a case of trial & error to get it right , in the end he was sound for hacking a little schooling & the odd small jump as long as you didn't go mad , this was with remadial shoeing & asprin , asprin is supposed to thin the blood & whilst i was sceptical to begin with it certainly seemed to help

[intouch]

First of all remember that navicular is a syndrome rather than a disease.
My old TB came to me with the early stages, I got his shoes off and got him trimmed by a qualified barefoot person then learned to do it myself, with supervision. It took almost a year but he now shows no signs of lameness.
I strongly recommend you give this some thought, remedial shoeing is just putting sticking plaster on the problem, where proper barefoot care could cure it.

[cccaz]

All the advice posted above is great.
Your Vet and GOOD farrier should work together. Some horses do will improve when they are barefoot IF the shoeing is causing the problem.
Xrays would really help to determine if there are bony changes or if the lameness is still in the soft tissue/inflamation stage.
I suggest NutraWound. Results are fantastic, and guaranteed. I just read where a horse was diagnosed as totally un-ridable with Navicular, and after only 5 days on NutraWound was sound.
Bute can cause so much trouble if used for maintenance. Ulcers and colic usually result.

[andreaB]

Bute can cause so much trouble if used for maintenance. Ulcers and colic usually result.[/QUOTE]

i'm not sure i agree with this , when i asked my vet his thoughts on this , he is the senior partner in the practice , he said that in a large horse on a bute a day for maintenence was , in his opinion a perfectly viable option , i had been told it could cause liver problems too long term , the vet told me that he had not in all his career come across any horse on such doeses that had suffered
ill effects from the use of bute, & that he considered any potential risks to be of such a minimal level that he would not hesitate in advising long term use of bute in appropriate cases

what have other peoples experiences been ???

[Big Ears]

I think my friend's horse was on bute more or less constantly for 10 years with navicular without any major side effects.

I suppose the thing is navicular is going to shorten their lives anyway, or at least is likely to, so the key thing is to prolong the quality time they have in whichever way works for the particular horse.

[eventerbabe]

Bute can cause so much trouble if used for maintenance. Ulcers and colic usually result.
nope, don't agree with that. as long as the dose is carefully regulated and the horse carefully monitored when on high doses (i.e. 3 sachets a day) then it should be fine. my mare has been on bute on and off for 5 years. no colic, no ulcers. at times she was on 3 sachets a day when at her worst. she still gets bute when being shod to aleviate any discomfort. i agree with you andrea, in my case the benifits outweigh the risks.

our YOs horse had navicular. she was basically retired but they had some success using accupuncture and remedial shoeing.

[cccaz]

I think maybe a google search on "bute ulcers horses" would be a greatly advised.

Here are just a few articles i found within a short search.Each article mentions that Bute is a know cause ulcers. Ex:

Overdoses with phenylbutazone can occur relatively easily. Once a blood level of phenylbutazone reaches a toxic level the metabolism of phenylbutazone is inhibited and elimination of the drug is reduced. Overdoses result in mouth and tongue lesions, gastrointestinal ulcers, and possibly hemorrhage. This is particularly a risk with young and stressed horses, or horses ill from other causes.

Damage to the lining of the gastrointestinal tract can be severe enough to cause the horse to leak significant amounts of protein from his blood into the intestine. The lowered blood protein levels result in edema, usually in the legs and along the belly. General symptoms include thirst, decreased appetite, weight loss and weakness that is, in part, secondary to the low protein and low levels of calcium in the blood. Advanced cases progress to renal (kidney) failure and death (see below). Damage to the kidneys also has been associated with prolonged use of phenylbutazone, particularly at high dosages.

Extended use of phenylbutazone also may cause damage to the portal vein in the liver, or other liver abnormalities. Phenylbutazone should not be used in horses known to have preexisting liver, kidney), or gastrointestinal disease.


http://www.flyingchanges.com/htmls/2003/Feb03Bute&Banamine.html
http://www.totalhealthenhance.com/equine/GastroPLUS.htm
http://www.ozpets.com.au/health/articles/HC10011.shtml
http://www.vet.k-state.edu/depts/vmth/equine/medicine/ulcers.htm
http://horseproducts.stablemade.com/_Articles/Phenylbutazone.htm
http://www.holistichorsekeeping.com/articles/ulcer2.html

[tb_rider]

we have a high-level dressage horse with navicular who has egg bar shoes, is on rapid response and gets one bute a day, who is back to showing prix st. george after being told he'd never show again. :)

[Shalu]

or at least so she was diagnosed at first!!!

A more thorough examniation from a different vet lead to a diagnosis of poor hoof balance due to long toe and low heels.

At the moment she's shod with Eggbarr shoes which seems to help as she is sound and has been for the last three months.

At the moment we are getting back into work, at the trotting stage.

I think that some vets just put the label navicular disease/syndrome on as soon as the problem can be localized to the distal part of the hoof. Which is far from beeing correct.

The first vet who examined Shalu (my horse) didn't even mention that the hoof was out of balance, which was the first thing the second vet said... ie. if we didn't correct this... the symptoms might go away for now, but they would be sure to return soon... so we would have to change the cause of the problems.

Luckily there were no changesabnormal changes on Shalu x-rays...

Best of luck to you and your horse...

MVH Matilde

[Shalu]

How can a vet agree to "bute" a horse on a deily basis... I really think it is way out of line ethically!!!

But to you or almos all of you it seems perfectly normal!!!

I must admit I am a bit shoked!!

And by the way it has been scientifically proved that long term use of bute and like products with phenylbutazone in it causes ulcers etc.

MVH Matilde

[andreaB]

shalu

would you see a horse suffer when you could aleviate that suffering & improve quality of life???

i think the levels of bute that most of us having been talking about are fairly low really , we are not talking pumping a horse that is in serious discomfort full of bute

then again if my horse was in serious discomfort in the sort term & the vet recommended a big dose to help the pain i would go with his opinion

vets are professionals , they , hopefully, know the facts behind the sort of stuff that amateur owners such as me read , & much of the info available on these types of issue is difficult to understand & very often conflicting

i pay the vet for his professional training & experience because i don't have that!!

[Shalu]

of arguments...

And agrees that the Vet ought to know better.

But still if my horse were in daily pain if not buted I would have it put down.

I know it is a tough thing to say but my opinion is that if an animal is in constant pain, it is better to end its life.

If it is only for a period of time to see if the problem rectify itself it is of cause ok, but if the horse is doped daly to prolong its ridden life without any hope of a cure i thing it is very wrong :)

I know a lot of people have to take painkillers, but is different, animals do not have a choise they have to take whatever we give them...

MVH Matilde

[FlyingColours24]

He was diagnosed in October. By our vets suggestion, we paid for the shoes($165....ugh!!) and she told us to put him on bute. Too make a very long story short, I didn't want my horse semi-retired on 2 bute just so he can do walk/trot lessons/trail rides. Though it was a really tough decision for me, we ended up retiring him. The lady who has him on her farm is amazing, when she agreed to take him, she read loads of studies on navicular and talked to her vet and farrier. She discovered from the studies that letting them go barefoot if they're not doing alot of work can help the navicular(it never goes away completley).

We decided to take Stan's shoes of and give him a 6 month break from any riding. It made all the difference in the world, now he's sound at the walk and no longer tripping all over the place(which he did even with the shoes on), and is alomst sound at the trot if he doesn't trot for a long time, and on good ground. We boith know Stan will probably never be able to canter again with a rider(though apparantly he spends his days "playing" with the 3 year old in his field!), let alone jump. Now he's used in light lessons in her beginner leson program. She even does a summer camp where she'll be using him for trail rides, lessons, and grooming lessons etc. He's an older horse, so he's loving it over there- lots of grass, friends, attention, and minimal riding!

[General]

My horse was diagnosed with navicular and after extensive shockwave treatment and special shoeing there was nothing else they could do for him. He was put on a low level dose of bute and after 3 weeks of this he suffered his first ever bout of colic. It was bad colic as well. Hospitalised for 2 weeks. He came home and as he was lame he went back on the bute (one a day and he was 16.3hh warmblood so a very low dose). 2 weeks later he suffered his second chronic bout of colic. He was intolerant to bute and it had caused him to have stomach ulcers. So YES bute CAN be bad for horses. He could no longer go on bute. For 2 months I tried everything to make him comfortable (unfortunately I didnt know about barefoot trimming tho). In the end after spending £4500 (not on insurance either :( ) and at the age of only 9 I had to have him put down. He was severly depressed and constantly lame. It broke my heart - he was my best friend not just my horse.

I wish I had known about barefoot because its something I would definately have tried.

On a plus side my friends little Appaloosa gelding has had navicular for about 15 years and hes absolutely fine (and barefoot too now).

[cccaz]

It is important to increase circulation in any internal hoof problem. It is also important to reduce inflamation.
Anti Inflamatories have been proven to cause ulcers.
Many times your vets will choose to prescribe Bute because that is the CHEAPEST route, esp for a client that is whining about cost.

Lets see? hmm? oh yes, did they not just pull Viox of the US market? It is great for pain, but it will cause heart problems. And where did patients get Viox? From their Doctor that knows all and has the education. Now my neighbor has heart problems.

I have been using a GUARANTEED product to reduce inflamation and to increase circulation and you only need to use it for 3-4 months. With NO ill side effects. My husband is a farrier. We have had wonderful results with Laminitis and Navicular. Quick results in the early stages, much quicker than conventional veterinary therapies. I mentioned it in above post, but Bute is cheaper and easier.

[parsharainbow]

My horse Red has navicular, pedal ostitis, ringbone and sidebone in his two front feet (full story on my website I won't bore anyone with it unless they want to read it) and he's totally sound and being ridden everyday, yet at Christmas he was facing being put to sleep, a bit of love, research, the right vet and farrier and now hes being walked, trotted and hacked :D

I use codliver oil, cider vinegar, equi-med + (bit like cortaflex), seaweed, nettles and comfrey leaves, the last two improve circulation and are good blood tonics, you can grow these yourself to save money :D Although he did have tildren which I imported as its unlicenced in the UK, excellent bone density improvement drug, but very hard to get hold of but I can give you the details if you PM me but it can carry severe side effects so unless its the end of the line like it was with me I wouldn't try it if you're faint hearted as it does carry the risk of a chronic and fatal heart attack if your not careful, although that risk is over within 45 mins of giving the drug and it only ever needs to be givenonce :D it also can cause chronic colic but my vet was amazing during this process and neither happened :D

Red is just so happy and relaxed these days and doesn't suffer an ounce of pain - he hasn't had a painkiller since december :)

Good luck with your horse :D If you want to know any more please PM me and I will do my best to help, hope some of this has been of help :D

[General]

Many times your vets will choose to prescribe Bute because that is the CHEAPEST route, esp for a client that is whining about cost.

I didnt whine about the cost and I was paying for it all out of my own pocket as I couldnt get it done on insurance. I asked if there was anything else I could give and was told no as the only other decent anti-inflammatory and painkiller had been banned by the EU in this country. I tried every known herbal and non-chemical thing I could. Cost was never an option as my horse was worth more than anything to me and I would have mortgaged the house if it was going to make a difference.

[parsharainbow]

[Cost was never an option as my horse was worth more than anything to me and I would have mortgaged the house if it was going to make a difference.
I'm not the only one then??? :D :D

[cccaz]

Many times your vets will choose to prescribe Bute because that is the CHEAPEST route, esp for a client that is whining about cost.

I didnt whine about the cost and I was paying for it all out of my own pocket as I couldnt get it done on insurance. I asked if there was anything else I could give and was told no as the only other decent anti-inflammatory and painkiller had been banned by the EU in this country. I tried every known herbal and non-chemical thing I could. Cost was never an option as my horse was worth more than anything to me and I would have mortgaged the house if it was going to make a difference.

My Apologies! I did not mean to point fingers at anyone on this board. I deal with people every day that do not want to pay anything for quality care if their horses. I get very fustrated. Unfortunately, I have lots of experience with Navicular and many other hoof ailiments. Some of us have found much better, safer results for hoof ailiments than Bute, Isoxsuprine and bar shoes.

[General]

Apology well accepted - Im probably just sensitive as I still feel to this day (a year on) that maybe there was SOMETHING more I could have done. Unfortunately I didnt know anything about barefoot and hadnt even heard about it - if I had would the outcome have been any different - who knows? It just plays on my mind from time to time and I also apologise for sounding like I was having a go. :o

[cccaz]

There is an excellent article somewhere about how the degeneration processstarts in the hoof. Basically it tells that inflamation starts, usually due to concussion.
The hoof wall acts like a turniquet and does not allow the inflamation to go anywhere, so it builds. With all the pressure inside the hoof capsule, the blood flow slows down, esp to the part with most inflamation. This inflamation affects areas that are under stress due to imbalanced trimming (hence imbalance shoeing). Sometimes this is the navicular bone, sometimes it is the coffin bone (peal osteitis), sometimes the short pastern (ringbone). As the blood flow decreases, the bones start to deteriorate.
This is why it is imperative to keep good circulation inside the hooves.
We can take time and do this naturally by correctly balanced trimming and/or shoeing.
We can add the use of use Bute and Isoxsuprine, which in my opinion are just band-aids with side effects.

[Moomin]

someone at work told me a wonderful story about her horse who had navicular - he has since been put down due to it by the way, some years ago when some treatments were not available.

Anyway she was given something by the vet which increases blood circulation and she was so worried about giving it to him correctly (there was a risk of heart attacks) that she eventually asked the vet if there was something else - also the drug did not seem to be working (I don't know which one it was!). The vet prescribed him Hawthorn (as in the herb!) and apparently he came sound and rideable after a month on that and it remained effective on its own for about 2 years. when it became less helpful she went to Hilton Herbs who mixed her a special blend and that combined with the hawthorn (she always used the Hawthorn as a straight not in a mixture) helped him be sound for another two years or so.

Unfortunately after that there were no more options and she eventually decided to have him put to sleep.

[andreaB]

i think most people who have to try to cope with navicular don't think about the cost so much but how to improve soundness & quality of life

reading through all these posts has reminded me of all the research i did & all the treatments i tried that other people have mentioned, many of which didn't work in my case or seemingly gave some short term improvement , although in some cases i think is was probably just me wishing the improvement!!

[sidesaddlelady1]

The original question was asked some time back but I thought that my reply might give hope to owners of other sufferers of navicular.

A horse at the riding school I sometimes work on is around 15 and in good condition apart from having had navic for about four years. Although she no longer hunts or teaches jumping, she is used regularly for children's lessons and by the students on the BTEC and BHS courses for flat work.

She is regularly checked and shod by a remedial farrier and is cared for very well by the staff and proprietor of the school. The point is that with proper care and management navicular does not have to be a total disaster.