'A bit is only as harsh as the hands using it'.... discuss.

[chev]

I've been thinking this over for a while - largely because of the number of threads on bitting, and the number of times I've heard it said recently.

So... how true do we think this really is?

All opinions are welcome, and anyone contributing is asked to have respect for everyone else's views. :)

[Mehitabel]

when i say 'severe' in terms of a bit, i use it to mean 2 things - 1 - how many areas of the horse's head it works on, and 2 - given the same hands, compared to something else.

so when i say a pelham is more severe than a snaffle, for example, i mean that given the same rider on the same horse pulling the reins the same strength, the pelham is going to have more of an effect. it acts on the bars of the mouth, lips, sometimes tongue depending on the mouthpiece, poll and curb groove, whereas the snaffle only acts on the bars, lips and sometimes tongue - mouthpiece depending.

and when i say a narrower mouthpiece is more severe than a fatter one, i mean in terms of same rider, same hands, etc, more pressure per square inch.

i don't think that things like mouth conformation come into account when discussing 'severity', i think that's more a measure of 'suitability'. so a thin mouthpiece is more suitable for petal, given her fat tongue low palate mouth, but it is still more severe than a fat one.

i also think the rider's hands are more to do with suitability than severity. a rider can't make a gag lose the lifting effect, nor a pelham lose the curb, nor make the snaffle act on the poll. the bits still act in the same way - but using them sympathetically or roughly is the difference with hands. you don't change the action of the bit, you just use it strongly or lightly, appropriately or not. the bit itself is still 'severe' (using my categorisation) it's just suitable or not.

[ajhainey]

In my _very_ limited experience( I don't own I ride at schools etc) I would say it's true to some extent (if you don't pick up the reins it probably doesn't matter what bit is on the end to some extent) but the 'maximum severity' does increase as you move up the scale of bits - so for most people, who are not fantastic riders all the time, the risk of unintentionally using lots of force is greater with harsher bits, so I tend to feel they should be avoided if possible. I certainly think schools should avoid stronger bits - I often find I'm not even told what my horse is in - nor have I ever seen people being told about the effects the different bits have :(

I do agree with double rein bits though - both for extra precision in advanced work AND for extra brakes when in 'hot' situations. Sometimes for your safety and those around you you might need the extra brakes - and in that case the POINT is that the second reins bring a more severe action into effect. You need to go from asking to yelling and double reins enable that...I don't intrisically belive you should never 'yell' - sometimes horses (like people) can be ornery, or just distracted and a yell is what's needed to bring them back to you...

I also agree that some horses take to different bits - theres no need for everyone to be in one single kind of bit (or indeed any bit at all) - thats why there are so many choices!

Trying to keep this short so I'll leave it there - you never offered your opinion chev?

aj xx

[helenc]

Echo Mehitabel 100%

When people talk about changing bits that they will be using then it is still the same hands using the bit which if someone is changing from a snaffle to a pelham, the action will be more severe.

[Gemma16]

Well Mehitabel, It hink you have hit the nail on the head.

[**Krista**]

Agree with Mehitabel but also add that personally i think its better that you move up to a stronger bit if you're using all aids properly and nothing is working. I would much rather 'ask' with a gag than 'yell' with a snaffle!

[horseygal]

i agree to

[nicolaj]

I would agree with all the commnets made :) .

There needs to be a good understanding of how bits work and what areas they work on and why. These explanations are so often lacking in riding schools, where lets face it, most of us learnt how to ride.

Can quite often hear people change bits as the horse doesn't work in an 'outline' so may use a pelham to increase poll pressure etc, rather than addressing the schooling issues. Think what I'm trying to say is that people change bits thinking it's a magic cure and the horse will suddenly work fantastically and listen etc.

Would agree that it is probably better to ask quietly for something rather than 'yell' or yank at the poor horses mouth in a snaffle.

I feel that mouth confirmation is important, a horse with a large tongue and a low palette, may be very uncomfortable with a thick mouth piece but a thinner one may suit them much more. We spend a lot of time making sure our saddles fit properly and most riders/owners understand the importance and what to look for when checking fit for saddles but not for the bit.

Go into the average tack shop or open a catalogue and you are presented with loads of different bits, rings, metal combinations that it is a complete minefield, especially with so many new brands now out such as Myler, KK, Mikmar etc that all claim to be kinder, milder etc. No wonder the wrong bits end up in the wrong mouths and hands :eek: . I will admit that I have made bitting mistakes :o , but hopefully these have now been sorted after talking to a bit bank :) .

Little off the original point, but suppose it shows how vast the whole topic is!

[Mossy]

Agree with all of the above but which comes first? A novice using a snaffle as it is a" gentle bit" - a truism which I dispute, but being pulled all over the place, and being demoralised: or the same novice on the same horse but with a, for instance, kimblewick, a responsive horse, and confidence increased. The only essential is that the instructor explains a little bitting theory so the novice knows WHY s/he should ride in a particular manner.
Just a thought, does a horse unsuitably bitted, with a novice on board, produce a heavy handed rider, as s/he is trying and failing to get a response.

[Mehitabel]

why do you dispute that a snafflle is a gentle bit, mossy? how do you define 'gentle', and what would you say would be gentler?

i would rather look at it from the horse's point of view. a novice, with unsteady hands, who may pull themselves up in rising trot by the reins, lose balance and clutch - if they are having difficulty and being pulled around, then ten to one they don't have an independent seat yet.
now as the person responsible for that horse's wellbeing, what bit would you put in?

people can be told 'you may have trouble steering - don't worry too much about that just yet, work on your balance and when your seat and hands are independent, we can put you on a more responsive horse. if we did that at the minute, you'd be in orbit when you gave the wrong signals or hung on to the mouth. this chap may have an iron mouth, but he is safe and you won't fall off. we appreciate it is a bit of a struggle, but once you progress you can go onto different horses and refine things.'

and if you have these school ponies in pelhams or kimblewicks, what happens when they get deadened to those? what happens when they back off the clumsy contact and end up behind the bit, overbending, hollowing, all the things that happen when someone with bad hands rides in a pelham?

we have about 25 ponies on the riding school. 2 are in scawbrigs, the others in snaffles. yes, some of them need a bit of a tug to go past the ride, if you haven't got the ability to ride from the seat and leg and prepare, and they don't think you really mean it. but the bits they are in minimise the risk of damage from a novice socking them in the teeth when they lose balance, hanging on in rising trot etc. that does happen, and with the kind of horse i think you are talking about, that puts up with a lot of imbalance, bad riding etc, i'd much rather they stayed in their snaffles and only had a sore mouth, as opposed to a sore poll, sore mouth and sore chin.

[chev]

My opinion... hmm!

One of the things that made me stop and think was something that happened fairly recently. A friend has a horse who's been ridden in a snaffle (loose ring french link) for a long time. Now he's got fitter and is doing more work, she's finding him rather strong - so she's popped a bubble bit in there. She tells me it's not really a severe bit - that in experienced hands, it's probably kinder than a plain snaffle in novice hands.

I'm hearing this more and more. And I find myself wondering if this idea that a bit is as kind as the hands that ride with it is simply a way of justifying using a stronger bit - after all, if it wasn't stronger or more severe why on earth would changing the original bit make any difference?

I do believe that the nastiest bit is one that simply doesn't suit the horse's mouth. For example - one horse might dislike pressure on the bars of the mouth but not the tongue - so a bit that acts mainly on the tongue would suit this horse. Another might hate pressure on the tongue and bars, but be very happy in one that acted mainly on the poll - so even though the chosen bit might be generally thought of as more severe, it might be less so for this horse.

That said - there are bits that are severe, whoever is using them and on whatever horse. I don't believe that kind hands make that much difference.

I'm not really of the opinion that all horses will go well in a gentle bit - although it's interesting that the strongest, most likely to pull horses (racehorses) can usually be pulled up in the middle of a race if neccessary in nothing more than a snaffle - but it does worry me that so little thought seems to go into the action of a bit, and how severe it might be, simply by trotting out this comment about hands and kindness.

[DavidH]

The real danger is that everyone thinks they have kind hands

[chev]

The real danger is that everyone thinks they have kind hands

That's also very true.

I remember an instructor taking my reins off me for rising trot and canter. It was only then I realised how much I was actually relying on my hands (and therefore the horse's mouth). Quite an eye opener.

[Tootsie4U]

Where is the differnce in yelling with a snaffle and asking with a more severe bit?

They are equal in my mind. They both hurt! Because you *think* you're being softer with the more severe bit, doesn't mean the horse's mouth agrees.

If you are doing either, it is not the equipment that needs changing.

Its a difficult topic. Bits are made to produce a specific *action* in the mouth. The relevance of the rider's hands only amplifies or lessens that action. A nut cracker will always crack nuts. It just cracks them more efficiently if you've got a better grip on the lever.

[nicolaj]

I would agree with Chev, it's about what suits the horse, and at the end of the day his/her comfort should always come first, over and above fashion or peer pressure.

There is another thread posted today about an individual who's horse is ridden in a kimblewick, which she seems happy in, but the owner feels pressure to change to a snaffle by other people on her yard. Obviously the choice is hers but demonstrates the confusion regarding bits and their severity and whether you are doing the right thing.

Riding schools/trekking centres have the horses welfare at heart as any horses off work are not making money, but costing money as they cannot be used in lessons/treks. They will no doubt consider very carefully the bits used on each horse to ensure no damage occurs to either horse or pupil, especially in response to ever increasing public liability insurance premiums.

I thinks it's 'horses for courses'. What suits one doesn't always work for another, I suppose it matters most if you intend to attempt dressage where there are very strict rules on bits.

Suppose in an ideal world, everybody would be tought how to ride properly to develop an independent seat and not rely on hands for balance.

[Mossy]

why do you dispute that a snafflle is a gentle bit, mossy? how do you define 'gentle', and what would you say would be gentler?
Why do I dispute that the snaffle is a gentle bit. Have you ever done the forearm test. That nutcracker action hurts!!!

i would rather look at it from the horse's point of view. a novice, with unsteady hands, who may pull themselves up in rising trot by the reins, lose balance and clutch - if they are having difficulty and being pulled around, then ten to one they don't have an independent seat yet.
now as the person responsible for that horse's wellbeing, what bit would you put in?
I would not send them round in circles pulling themselves up by their hands in the first place. When my son was learning his instructor told him to trot like this. Moss took a v. dim view of proceedings so I put son on the lunge line and got him walking then trotting no reins at all! I am sorry but one of the reasons I did not pursue a mature change to a riding career is because I work on the basis of teach balance first and then move up the paces, not the other way round. PS the comment from said instructor was "His balance has improved since he visited you"

people can be told 'you may have trouble steering - don't worry too much about that just yet, work on your balance and when your seat and hands are independent, we can put you on a more responsive horse. if we did that at the minute, you'd be in orbit when you gave the wrong signals or hung on to the mouth. this chap may have an iron mouth, but he is safe and you won't fall off. we appreciate it is a bit of a struggle, but once you progress you can go onto different horses and refine things.'

and if you have these school ponies in pelhams or kimblewicks, what happens when they get deadened to those? what happens when they back off the clumsy contact and end up behind the bit, overbending, hollowing, all the things that happen when someone with bad hands rides in a pelham? If you teach balance first the horses' mouths do not get deadened. What happened to round the world and other exercises?

we have about 25 ponies on the riding school. 2 are in scawbrigs, the others in snaffles. yes, some of them need a bit of a tug to go past the ride, if you haven't got the ability to ride from the seat and leg and prepare, and they don't think you really mean it. but the bits they are in minimise the risk of damage from a novice socking them in the teeth when they lose balance, hanging on in rising trot etc. that does happen, and with the kind of horse i think you are talking about, that puts up with a lot of imbalance, bad riding etc, i'd much rather they stayed in their snaffles and only had a sore mouth, as opposed to a sore poll, sore mouth and sore chin. Agreed a pelham has the potential for more sore spots than a snaffle but if a rider is taught balance first then surely steering becomes an extension of balance.

I think we are looking at the issue from two opposite directions. I would not dream of being rude to you but I cannot help fundamentally disagreeing with you.

[helenc]

Mossy - yes I agree that the nutcracker action isn't very nice but who said snaffles have to be single jointed?

all types of bits come in all types of mouthpieces so I don't quite understand why you are disputing that a snaffle is gentle in comparison to other bit groups

[cvb]

taking things a slightly different way, a clinic with Peggy Cummins had as humans working in pairs on our "contact" and it was amazing how the arm and hand could look the same but feel very different depending on other things the person was doing (e.g. how they engaged their core muscles).

This really highlighted to me how big a factor OUR hands are in any contact - whether it be via bit, or bitless....

[eventerbabe]

I do believe that the nastiest bit is one that simply doesn't suit the horse's mouth. For example - one horse might dislike pressure on the bars of the mouth but not the tongue - so a bit that acts mainly on the tongue would suit this horse. Another might hate pressure on the tongue and bars, but be very happy in one that acted mainly on the poll - so even though the chosen bit might be generally thought of as more severe, it might be less so for this horse.

well said. i have been told i'm cruel for riding in a pelham but my horse does NOT like the snaffle action and i feel it does him more harm keeping him in a snaffle and having him uncomfortable than going back to a pelham and having a happy horse. it would be wonderful if we could all ride in snaffles but we can't.

Where is the differnce in yelling with a snaffle and asking with a more severe bit?

i'd rather be able to ask once and gently in a slightly stronger bit than be constantly pulling and fighting with the horse and wrecking its mouth in a mild bit that the horse just doesn't like!

I also believe that the majority of people should look at other factors before they start using stronger and stronger bits. i'm sure a lot of issues may be down to poor schooling and rider error. i used to dispair in our old yard when one poor horse kept having stronger bits strapped into its gob and infact the problems were 100% rider error.

[Mossy]

Mossy - yes I agree that the nutcracker action isn't very nice but who said snaffles have to be single jointed?

all types of bits come in all types of mouthpieces so I don't quite understand why you are disputing that a snaffle is gentle in comparison to other bit groups
I deliberately did not complicate the issue by discussing different mouthpieces. A bit is only as gentle as the hands on the ends of the reins, which is where we came in! Different mouth shapes find different mouth pieces and bit types more comfortable. There is an argument for putting the horse's mouth first and only putting a rider on a horse that is happier in a "more advanced" bit once the rider has the skills to cope with it. Again - teach balance first.

[Mehitabel]

Why do I dispute that the snaffle is a gentle bit. Have you ever done the forearm test. That nutcracker action hurts!!!

not every snaffle is a nutcracker, french link, mullen mouth, waterford... when i say snaffle i mean a mouthpiece and 2 plain rings. i don't necessairly mean a jointed one.


I would not send them round in circles pulling themselves up by their hands in the first place. When my son was learning his instructor told him to trot like this. Moss took a v. dim view of proceedings so I put son on the lunge line and got him walking then trotting no reins at all! I am sorry but one of the reasons I did not pursue a mature change to a riding career is because I work on the basis of teach balance first and then move up the paces, not the other way round. PS the comment from said instructor was "His balance has improved since he visited you"

this just isn't practical or feasible from a RS point of view. we do group lessons because people do not want to pay for their kids to have private lunge lessons. lunge lessons are more expensive, harder on the horse, and more intensive all round - people just won't pay for them. you can only do one rider at a time per instructor, and the costs just make that impossible.

if you are a serious adult learner, then perhaps you will, but the average once-a-week riding school client (or their parent) is already muttering about the expense of a group lesson and is not going to make the effort and shell out the cash for lunge lessons daily to improve like that. in germany it is an institution, how everyone learns to ride - but the riding school that tried that here would be out of business sharpish.

we'd all be much better riders if we learned with no reins and no stirrups on the lunge - no argument there. but in the current climate, we're not allowed to take reins and stirrups away at the same time for insurance reasons - it's be a goldmine for the ambulance chasers. we have to work with the infrastructure in place, and hobby riders here are mostly just not willing to spend hours on the lunge working out balance.

If you teach balance first the horses' mouths do not get deadened. What happened to round the world and other exercises?

same as the previous answer. if the horses mouths aren't dead, no need for a stronger bit in the first place. people learn balance as they go along - they are never goign to get it immediately and as i said above, it is not feasible in this country to teach people with no reins until they have independent seats. they won't come often enough, they won't pay for intensive lunge tuition. at some point, they are going to lose balance and the most common way for a beginner to regain it is to clutch at the reins.

Agreed a pelham has the potential for more sore spots than a snaffle but if a rider is taught balance first then surely steering becomes an extension of balance.

same point again, here. i ran a riding school for several years, i teach there part time now. insurance is going up every time you turn round. passports were expensive to implement, every time someone falls off you have to replace their hat, you get new standards, you have to keep the horses, pay the wages, send the staff on child protection courses and H&S courses - riding is already shockingly expensive. nearly all the £18/hour we get for a group lesson goes straight out of the bank again.

as we work at the minute, we do 3 hours on a saturday, and use about 25 ponies on each ride - this is the bread-and-butter day. i can't imagine we are that different from other places. we would never in a million years be able to keep our head above water as a business if we only did lunge lessons, or only private ones. our ponies are bog-standard riding school chaps, they are cheap to run, they do their job, they are grass-roots teachers. the majority of our clients are not highflying riders with an intent to compete, they are kids of 5 upwards (because we can't have under-4s riding - insurance again)who want to pootle round on a pony, mums who used to ride and want to take it up again, who want to wander round the countryside and get a bit fitter. lunge lessons are not what they or their parents want, they don't know (or want to know) the first thing about the horse's mouth, they'd be bored stiff if you lectured them on bitting, the parents complain if they spend too much time in the lesson in walk and not trotting and cantering.

in the spirit of david's thread and real-world advice - what else can we do? at least we know our animals are loved and not overworked - we teach as best we can and take care of them as best we can. we try to turn our clients into sympatheitc and caring riders, but we have to work within the constraints of what there is a market for.

this is debate - not personal. no thoughts of rudeness! hopefully no offence taken by you either. :)

[Tootsie4U]

i'd rather be able to ask once and gently in a slightly stronger bit than be constantly pulling and fighting with the horse and wrecking its mouth in a mild bit that the horse just doesn't like!

Alright, you would rather but what about your mount?

Fit vs. Use are two different contexts when talking about what a horse 'prefers'. A horse with an odd shaped mouth may not go comfortably in bit x. That has completely different relevance to a rider slapping in a stronger bit because the horse is too strong for her/him.

Imagine this scenario: "My crazy horse prefers the twisted wire over his french link. He is so light in it and he never pulls anymore! He must love it! He stops when I ask and I only need to pick up my rein to have him turn. He must love it! Riding is so pleasant now - I never have to fight him anymore!"

No way! :D The horse has resigned to the pain of the twisted wire. He doesnt prefer it. He stays off it because it hurts! His backing away is misinterpreted for lightness. His relucatance to fight it is misinterpreted to 'a better fit'. We feel better because our times in the saddle are spent on loose reins with a horse who tucks his chin in the ever amazing outline :rolleyes: If evolution is true, maybe one day they'll start talking and tell us how wrong we are :D

If Lynn Palm can do Grand Prix bitless, if the Parelli's can jump picnic tables bitless, it'll take a very big relevation for Tootsie to ever believe a horse needs more than a simple, mild bit.

[Mehitabel]

(blimey - that last post of mine got a little OT and long - sorry about that...)

also WRT forearm pinch tests - try it with a pelham, with the headpiece round your neck so you get the poll pressure, and the bit in your clenched fist with curb chain done up under your wrist...

it's something i do with a variety of bits when teaching students for exams.

[cvb]

LOL - I always think of bits and reins as being a bit like those "telephones" you make when you're kids - two tin cans and a bit of string...

all they are is a way to communicate. So what we do is attach an "amplifier" to a sensitive part of the horse, and then attach a string to it.

if this was true two way dialogue, the other end of the "string" would be attached to a sensitive part of US. Wonder how much that would alter our ideas :eek: ;)

[mayS]

'A bit is only as harsh as the hands using it'.... discuss.

I would disagree. This statement would give people the false sense a really harsh bit is fine to use if they think they have gentler hands (and not everyone who thinks they are gentle is).

I would argue for the less severe bit for most horses and most situations because the horse doesn't need to feel pain to hear the cues from the rider. Reins should be about communication, not leverage or forcing enough pain on a horse till he submits. At least that's my opinion. :D

[Tootsie4U]

And mine, MayS :)

Ain't it the truth, cvb... ain't it the truth... I bet that'd change some rider's opinions!

[cvb]

May

I guess this is a bit like car safety - where people get into "safe" cars and drive crazily, because they think they are safe in the car - regardless of what they do ! Rather than drive normally and be safer :rolleyes:

[eventerbabe]

i think this thread is kinda like what davidH was saying in the cafe area on his food for thought thread. IDEALLY we'd all ride in snaffles but in reality its not always possible. and its not fair to lecture people who chose to ride in a stronger bit because their horses are happy and go well in it. i'm not going to ride my horse in a snaffle(in which he is incredibly unhappy) just coz the concensus is that pelhams are "cruel". i'm not deadening his mouth, he is not unhappy or in pain, he's ridden off the buckle 99% of the time when hacking so wheres the harm in the use of this "strong" bit???

getting back to chevs original question, well, i do think any bit used roughly is going to hurt the horse, so yes i do think a bit is only as harsh as the hands its in.

[nicolaj]

This has been a really interesting discussion!

A 'harsh' bit will be harsher with somebody with poor hands, but then the same person with a snaffle may also use it harshly, so bad hands will make all bits harsh maybe?

In today's 'let sue the arse of everybody' society, I can see why riding schools are no longer able to get people doing round the world, or knotting up the reins and walking/trotting round with their arms straight out to the side to help the seat and all those other methods of torture, we used to endure.

Perhaps the onus is on us as riders, the more you wish to progress, from just enjoying a weekly lesson or trek (nothing wrong with that either) to wanting to progress and refine your riding then maybe we should all be thinking of having regular lunge sessions on our own or riding school horses, biting the bullet and paying the fee every now and then. So no matter what bit we use, we can hopefully be kind and knoweldgable in it's use.

[eventerbabe]

So no matter what bit we use, we can hopefully be kind and knoweldgable in it's use.
well said, and i think that can be applied to most aspects of horse care and equipment.

[Mehitabel]

i'm not going to ride my horse in a snaffle(in which he is incredibly unhappy) just coz the concensus is that pelhams are "cruel". i'm not deadening his mouth, he is not unhappy or in pain, he's ridden off the buckle 99% of the time when hacking so wheres the harm in the use of this "strong" bit???

getting back to chevs original question, well, i do think any bit used roughly is going to hurt the horse, so yes i do think a bit is only as harsh as the hands its in.

nobody is saying there's any harm in it - you are recognising that a pelham is a stronger bit than a snaffle, which is the point. there is no consensus that pelhams are cruel - at least, not from me.

of course any bit used roughly is going to hurt - they're made of metal and in the horse's mouth. but do you think a snaffle used roughly is going to hurt as much as a pelham used roughly, is what chev was asking.

[**Krista**]

I can see everyones point here but am going to agree with eventerbabe on this one. For schooling Dev is in a french link snaffle which is fine. He is responsive and listens to me. But when jumping/doing fast work we're in a 3 ring dutch gag. This is because he is so strong and excitable when jumping he is dangerous to jump in the snaffle. Believe me i have tried so im working on his jumping in the school with the gag and aim to *one day* jump in the snaffle. But if that doesnt work, so be it! I have the advice of my instrutor on hand and i have asked her many times if i'm being too heavy handed but she says im fine.

I think the problem is that some people think that when you work in a stronger bit its because you havent tried using your seat and are relying on your hands.. but this isnt the case. I did not want to ride in a stronger bit unless i had to.. and i have to until the day when I feel i can downgrade.

Maybe im being ignorant but i truely believe that hauling a horses mouth in a snaffle is far worse than having a listening, controllable horse in a stronger bit when you can half halt and use your seat to slow.

To quote you Tootsie Fit vs. Use are two different contexts when talking about what a horse 'prefers'. A horse with an odd shaped mouth may not go comfortably in bit x. That has completely different relevance to a rider slapping in a stronger bit because the horse is too strong for her/him.

Imagine this scenario: "My crazy horse prefers the twisted wire over his french link. He is so light in it and he never pulls anymore! He must love it! He stops when I ask and I only need to pick up my rein to have him turn. He must love it! Riding is so pleasant now - I never have to fight him anymore!"

I completely agree.. but for most responsible riders i think they can tell the difference. There are lots of riders who bit inappropriately but some who take all factors into consideration and make the best choice for their horse. Some horses genuinely work better in stronger bits just as some work better in others. I do not think you should dismiss one persons opinion just because they do not ride in a snaffle.

[Tootsie4U]

I do think you've missed my point eventerbabe. Im not lecturing you. I'll just ditto Mehitabel's latest post on this one :)

[eventerbabe]

If Lynn Palm can do Grand Prix bitless, if the Parelli's can jump picnic tables bitless, it'll take a very big relevation for Tootsie to ever believe a horse needs more than a simple, mild bit.

well, come meet toby then. the first horse i've met to prefer poll action bits to a snaffle. and who am i to disagree with him? :p

May i point out my answer to chevs original question is actually in the quote mehitabel used ;)

There are lots of riders who bit inappropriately but some who take all factors into consideration and make the best choice for their horse. Some horses genuinely work better in stronger bits just as some work better in others.

i quite agree with that. but chev hit it on the head when she said the worst bit was the one that didn't suit the horses mouth.

[martini55]

'A bit is only as harsh as the hands using it'... true to some extent in that a snaffle could be more harsh if used incorrectly than a pelham used correctly.

But I do agree with Chev that it does sometimes seem to be a strange to justify using a stronger bit saying that using it will be kinder than using a snaffle, it won't be 'kinder' as it has a more severe action. If not there would be no point in changing bits. But what is kinder is the fact the horse is more responsive to that stronger bit and it should not be coming into action as often, which is much better for the horse's mouth. But does that always happen?

In an ideal world we would all have light, responsive hands and happy horses ridden in snaffles, but that will never happen. Look at some of the top horses in the equestrian world, they will be highly trained and yet some of them wear bits other than snaffles. Why? Because not all horses are happy in snaffles, some prefer the actions of say a pelham or gag. It is not always to do with the horse itself being strong or uncontrollable, as Chev and eventerbabe pointed out, a lot of it has to do with what the horse prefers and what suits its mouth the best.

I have seen a lot of people frowning upon riders using more severe bits and people jumping to conclusions about how strong the horse must be. That is not always the case and it is unfair to judge!

On saying that, it does annoy me when people mess around with the horses bit before ruling out other factors such as physical problems, ill-fitting tack or plain lack of schooling.

[Tootsie4U]

I do not think you should dismiss one persons opinion just because they do not ride in a snaffle.

To continue with the example given, if you put a Pelham on the horse and ride on the buckle, do you *need* that stronger bit? Does the horse *need* that stronger bit?

Im not niave, I understand because of insurance issues and showing issues that you must ride with bits, but if the horse is that well behaved I just dont understand how an owner justifies putting a devise in her horses' mouth thats made to control the horse via pain. Bits are pain motivators, plain and simple.

I completely understand that not all horses mouth's may be suited to a jointed snaffle, non-jointed snaffle, fat bit, skinny bit, shanked bit, non shanked bit. Fit is one thing. If eventerbabe's horse truly picks up his bridle and slurps up his bit without her asking - then he must love his pelham. If he turns up his nose and clenches his teeth when he sees the snaffle coming, more power to him. Eventerbabe has a unique situation, IMO. She is not relying on her pelham to control her horse. But I will not blantantly condone the viewpoint that a horse who responds better in stronger bits and is more easily controlled in stronger bits likes stronger bits or even *needs* stronger bits. The people who assume this have clouded vision.

[nicolaj]

Krista has a good point, it's about being knowledgable about why you are using a certain bit or piece of tack, and just as importantly how to use is properly.

Others may change bits to XC or jump, others may change nosebands to a grackle or other to gain control in such 'fast' situations.

I still stand by the comment that as riders and or horse owners the onus is upon us to fully understand the equipment we use, why it's being used and how to use it properly and kindly.

I don't think anybody is having a go at those of us who are aware of the tack we use and why and use it properly, but there are people, and we've all known and see them, who just use stronger bits or tack to stop their horse evading them or running off etc, rather than looking at themselves and why the horse is doing it in the first instance.

[**Krista**]

there are people, and we've all known and see them, who just use stronger bits or tack to stop their horse evading them or running off etc, rather than looking at themselves and why the horse is doing it in the first instance.

This is the point exactly.. Tootsie, i agree with you to a point but the issue is with riders who tack their horses up in the 'fashionable' gagdets and yank their horses into an 'outline'. I am not part of this camp at all and i would happily jump in a snaffle IF you were allowed to gallop round the area and if i wanted to be completely out of control. Personally i dont and i would rather school him out of his bad habits using a stronger bit and then wean him off of it rather than end up being in danger/hauling at his mouth.

[Tootsie4U]

i would happily jump in a snaffle IF you were allowed to gallop round the area and if i wanted to be completely out of control. Personally i dont and i would rather school him out of his bad habits using a stronger bit and then wean him off of it rather than end up being in danger/hauling at his mouth.

Then you dont run before you can walk. You dont take an enthusiastic horse and supress his happiness with pain. You encourage it, mold it, and some day you can use it to your advantage.

In that case, its not the bit that needs changing... its the training.

:)

[**Krista**]

Well Tootsie i would gladley take some advice from you... But this isnt some training plan i have made up myself, it has been created by my instructor (who suggested the bit in the first place) who is a fellow of the BHS. I know im not the most knowledgable rider in the world and i only want to do the best by my horse, now and in the long run

[nicolaj]

Again agree with your comment Krista, it's about using something but working towards moving away from that piece of tack, whatever it be, by reeducation/schooling.

Also if your horse is very excitable when jumping, at the end of the day it's safety yours, your horse and those around you.

I think there is a separate discussion to be had (and I believe has been) about bitless and bitted bridles. We're not here to have a go at indivdual's riding style or what bits they use. The original comment was about a bit only being as harsh as the hands that use it.

[Sophini]

Then you dont run before you can walk. You dont take an enthusiastic horse and supress his happiness with pain. You encourage it, mold it, and some day you can use it to your advantage.

In that case, its not the bit that needs changing... its the training.

:)

Smiley or not tootsie, IMO that reads as quite a harsh comment to make given I assume that you have not actually seen Krista and her horse nor have full detail of her reason for her choice of bit and schooling practice. It could be that previous "bad hands" have resulted in this horse being slightly deadened in his mouth and so effective bitting and schooling are being used in combination to reeducate

This thread is about a any bit being harsh in the wrong hands which i would completely agree with - you can do a hell of a lot of damage with a pair of hands - for example a hard pull on a Dually halter has some pretty harsh consequences.

But there is a flip side to this arguement - a STRONG bit need not be HARSH if it is used sympathetically. When riding in a double bridle is it necessary to have a lot of curb action? Absoultely not! Could you cause serious and lasting damage by riding roughly in a hackamore? Of course you could!! It is not what you have in it's mouth or on it's head, its how you use your hands

[Miriam]

Lets not get this thread to blow our of protortion the tittle says it all and we are not talking about if a horse should be rode in a snaffle or any other bit or bitless bridle



Miriam
MODERATOR



PS one wonders why I never get into a debate about hunting and bits :D

[Tootsie4U]

You've got to trust your instructor. Im just stating the obvious. Not offering advice, criticism, or anything. I just feel its unfortunate that bits have become a common replacement for control. Your instructor has to keep you safe, good for him being so responsible :)

Good discussion :)

[Horsesarelife]

IMO it is true to a certain extent. If you put a 'strong' bit in a horses mouth and don't take up any contact, this is going to be a lot less severe than a snaffle, if the horse is being continually pulled in the mouth.

Its fine to say it's not an isue that the horse is to strong, but its the person riding it who needs to school it out of the problem, unfortunatly how ever much schooling you do in an enviroment the horse is happy with in a snaffle or otherwize, this will change the horses behaviour, but I feel i have to ride my horse in a 'stronger' bit at shows e.c.t, for her own saftey, I would rather her know whos boss, than be falling over going round courners :(, which untill she realises not rushing at fences and getting exctied will help her (which she is slowly realsing, and she doesn't rush at home in a snafle now),I' affraid she will be ridden in that bit.

It's fair enough to say well so and so can do it in this bit, and so and so can ride her horse bitless so why can't you, but horses are just like people... there all different :(


sorry mods, not trying to be a reble cross posted with mim, I'll delete this if you want :)

[Tootsie4U]

I assume that you have not actually seen Krista and her horse nor have full detail of her reason for her choice of bit and schooling practice.

The "you" was a third person reference. I can't comment on any single persons experience as I dont know a thing about them.

A double bridle is used for refinement of aids. Not control. Please understand that Im not a bitless rider and not aiming to make a stand on bitless through this thread. I am, however, very much opinionated on the misuse of a bit for control.

Anywhoooo... I'll reiterate that certain bits are made for certain actions. Some bits are made to cause pain and in those instances, it doesnt matter what the rider's hands are like, they'll still hurt the horse.

[**Krista**]

Yep i do rely on my instructors advice and i trust her 110% :D

But i still agree with the thread title!! :)

[chev]

This is making for some very interesting reading.

I suppose if you take things at absolute face value, no bit when just sitting in a horse's mouth is going to cause him pain (assuming is has no sharp edges and is a suitable bit, at least). Given that the problems only start when a pair of hands gets hold at the other end of the reins... then yes, any bit is only going to be as harsh as the hands in control.

But let's face it - if that really were the case, there wouldn't be so many different levels of strength in each bit group would there?

Ok, so not all horses like the snaffle family - some prefer a curb. But look at curb bits... there are curb bits with and without chains, bits with short shanks or long shanks; those two alone demonstrate the ways in which the same bit is instantly made more severe. It's not just a case of a horse liking a curb more - it's how much leverage and pressure it's rider wants to exert, as well.

If all the harshness a bit could muster was down to our hands alone the more extreme versions of each bit would have no need to even exist.

[Zingy]

This is making for some very interesting reading.

I suppose if you take things at absolute face value, no bit when just sitting in a horse's mouth is going to cause him pain (assuming is has no sharp edges and is a suitable bit, at least). Given that the problems only start when a pair of hands gets hold at the other end of the reins... then yes, any bit is only going to be as harsh as the hands in control.

But a horse can tell the action of a bit before you pick up any kind of contact. Try riding Yog in a curb bit, or even somthing like a hanging cheek with absolutely minimal poll pressure when you've got a contact. He'll go over backwards while you've still got reins like washing lines.

The hands are the key part of the equation but I wouldn't say a bit is only as harsh as the hands.

[chev]

But a horse can tell the action of a bit before you pick up any kind of contact.

Good point. In fact in the case of one horse, she knew it was a Chifney before it even went in her mouth.

The way the bit lies in the mouth, the way it's put together, will also have an (albeit very minimal) effect.

[Colorado Sunset]

Sorry, this has been very interesting, id just like to ask:

But a horse can tell the action of a bit before you pick up any kind of contact

How? The horse you described started going backwards due to previous memories of the bit being used, not the bit itself. Or am i taking this completely the wrong way :rolleyes:

[CityGirl]

It's a very interesting discussion. I have no problem using non-snaffles and don't think that a snaffle is the end-all, be-all of bits. I also don't think I have the softest hands (so I'm an exception to your rule DavidH). I am working to school myself & my hands (and have borrowed the tomato exercise from Casey). Since I don't trust my hands 100%, there are certain bits I won't ride in - a double for example or a gag bit. I think it would be unduly harsh.

I do have a problem with people saying that if your horse doesn't go well in a snaffle, there is a hole in the training. What about if a horse gets "over-excited" on a jump course? Nigel is a prime example. He's very well-schooled. However, take him into the jumper ring & he gets really, really excited & really, really strong. In that case, I want a little bit more "bite" in the bit b/c I need him to listen. If he doesn't it's dangerous for both of us. It is harsh? Personally I'd rather 2 seconds of "OH, I'll listen" than 2 minutes of futiley tugging on a snaffle as he barrels around.

This goes back to the real world. Horses have quirks & bad days & personalities, just like riders. There is no "one solution"

And on a different note, I was schooling Ni o/f in a slow twist. I actually found he didn't like it & went back to the KK Ultra Loose Ring. It's much milder than the slow but he goes better in it. That's the thing - you always need to evaluate. I didn't automatically up the strength b/c he wasn't listening to the slow twist. I tried different alternatives & found one he really likes & responds well to. I think at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

[LoopyLou]

Hi,
Has anyone read the article on www.enlightenedequitation.co.uk, in the library section , articles index regarding the use of Pelhams written by Heather Moffett, makes interesting reading.

[chev]

Sorry, this has been very interesting, id just like to ask:



How? The horse you described started going backwards due to previous memories of the bit being used, not the bit itself. Or am i taking this completely the wrong way :rolleyes:

Well - think about how the bit lies in the mouth, for a start. A straight mouthpiece will feel different to a jointed one, for example, even if there's nobody on board yet. There will be pressure on different parts of the mouth, as the horse moves his mouth the bits will react in different ways, and different parts of the bit will feel more obvious - like the plate on a Dr Bristol will have that edge against the tongue whether there's pressure on the reins or not.

If it's a curb bit, the way it's suspended in the mouth will feel different. Even with the bit just hanging there, there will be a degree of pressure on the poll - and the chin groove too, if a curb chain is used.

It might only be very small degrees, but these are very sensitive parts of the horse we're talking about!

CG - I don't think the question is really about people evaluating what their horse needs in any given situation. I have no problem swapping Gelfy into a Waterford when he gets a bit above himself - it means that he starts listening, and we can go back to a milder bit again in his case. For me, the aim is to get him responsive to the least pressure, with the mildest kind of bit.

What does bug me though is what seems to be an ever prevailing belief that bits like the slow twist, the gag, the Waterford and the Dr Bristol are not harsh bits - they are, at least in my view. The fact that they are doesn't neccessarily negate the need for them sometimes - but I think people really need to understand what it is they're putting in a horse's mouth, to understand all teh implications, and to take responsibility for what they do.

I do use a Waterford occasionally - but I would never excuse it by saying my hands are kind enough not to cause damage. The bit works because it's more severe. I know it can be a nasty bit - I know it works because fighting it is unpleasant for him. I just feel there are an awful lot of people who don't - but who continue to use them and excuse themselves with this stuff about bits and hands.

For me, hands can only ever be part of the picture. And to understand bitting, you need to look at the whole.

[Zingy]

Sorry, this has been very interesting, id just like to ask:



How? The horse you described started going backwards due to previous memories of the bit being used, not the bit itself. Or am i taking this completely the wrong way :rolleyes:

I'm not sure. The only thing I can put it down to is weight of the reins on the bit, though this would be very light, or the way it moved in his mouth. To my knowledge he has never been ridden in a curb or another bit with poll pressure - I tried it twice in the last 6 years and he was ridden in an egbutt snaffle for 2 years before that. Prior to that he was just backed, so I see no reason for a curb bit. Yet he knows without a contact that he hates the feel of that action.

[CityGirl]

but here's the thing - why have we all decided that the snaffle is the "best" bit? If my horse goes well in a Dr. Bristol & he's responsive & I have good hands & am not hauling him around - why is it a bad thing to use it? Why has the snaffle become the holy grail of schooling?

[herbyhorse]

mehibtal - really understand what you're saying about the running of riding school, keeping it afloat and making horses and ponies lives enjoyable. Through my time teaching and working I get to the point where I wonder ... do I just put them all in hackamores and halters so they don;t get jabbed in the mouth by yet another unbalnced rider? ...private clients who are serious go on the lunge but the majority are kids who just want to go fast and bounce at varying frequencies. I despair.

I ride Treac in a long shank myler out ... because she enjoyes going fast and is fit and though I enjoy it too ,,, roads!!! she likes poll action over snaffle any day and am considering hackamore. But in this thought I wonder ... Do we have some psychological apprach to different bits which makes us behave differently? I mean, yes our horse may well be light because he's in pain and backing off the bit, it might be because finally he understands what the idiot on board is trying to say... or perhaps it's the tentative nature in which some of us approach the use of a new bit for the first time, that lightness and delicateness we convay through muscle and sinew as we know the strenght of said "strong" bit which we might not apply to the bog standard "snaffle"? ( sorry rambling!) and hence this is comunicated to horse . I don't know, all I know is that Hacked off's Archer is soooo happy in doctor cook, riley doesn't head shake in his, Jim at 18 has a new lease of life in myler and numerous others have been re-energised by a different bit. But sometimes it's that promise of change which changes the rider's hands which start to listen more for the subtlties of improvement.

slighly off thread... but I'll come to my point. A bit is a method of communication (amoungst others) shouting sometimes hurts the ears and is difficult and understand and may cause resentment and a whisper may not be heard and those in utterance might be disregarded.

David H - could we ALL have softer hands?

[chev]

but here's the thing - why have we all decided that the snaffle is the "best" bit? If my horse goes well in a Dr. Bristol & he's responsive & I have good hands & am not hauling him around - why is it a bad thing to use it? Why has the snaffle become the holy grail of schooling?

Because it's the least invasive family of bits, I guess.

I do think it's a lot more complicated than that - snaffles are not always gentle and mild by any stretch of the imagination. The Dr Bristol is one shining example - it's a snaffle, but rather severe.

Generally a snaffle acts on fewer points of the head than other groups of bit - so in that respect, it's a simpler bit. There are snaffles that lessen the pressure on the mouth and exert small amounts of poll pressure (like the Baucher) without actually being curb bits. I was always taught that when it comes to bitting 'less is more' - that the aim is to have a pony happy with the least complicated bit possible.

Ok - so part of that may well be down to showing here - an awful lot of classes insist that ponies are ridden in a snaffle. But my belief is that when bitting a pony for the first time, it's in both mine and the pony's interests to choose a bit that's as simple in it's action as I can.

When it comes to refinement, there is the double bridle (or pelham, if there's no room for two bits). Neither is about being strong - it's about equipping yourself with a few more phrases to the vocabulary, if you like. But with both of those bits (less so with the pelham, I admit) there is a huge degree of control over what action you're using, and how much pressure. With a bit like a bubble bit - there is none. There's no refinement there at all. Particularly if the rein is on the bottom setting - touch that rein and you're effectvely putting your horse's head in a vice. If there is no option for refinement, how will the horse (or rider) ever learn refinement? And it's ok saying it's a matter of using very light aids - I rarely see 'invisible' aids using that bit in that position - even looking at photographs of top riders (who surely have kinder hands than most) that bit is often hauled right back on the rein.

Oops... got a bit distracted there. Ok - why is the snaffle my bit of choice? Because for as long as it suits the horse (and yes, I realise it doesn't suit all horses) it is generally a bit that exerts less discomfort than most other types of bit when it's brought into play. And my aim in training is to get my horse to respond to as little force or disconfort as possible. Yes, it's a generalisation - but so is so much when it comes to bitting.

[Tootsie4U]

And my aim in training is to get my horse to respond to as little force or disconfort as possible. Yes, it's a generalisation - but so is so much when it comes to bitting.

KEY STATEMENT!

The goal of any trainer should be to get the horse to respond better and better to less and less stimuli. If the horse can do that, they're doing the thinking for themselves. The tack is not. Its called sensitization (opposite of desensitization, where bits are wrongly used). I want a direct pathway to the brain, not with a pit stop to the mouth first. (absolute only exception for me would be where a mild bit such as a simple snaffle does not conform to the horses' mouth). Fine tuning.

If you do have an excitable horse and you think you're forced into putting a strong bit in for an event, you're training your horse to respond to increased stimuli when he's already using the wrong side of his brain. (flight / non-thinking)

[Miriam]

Pelhams - BHS instructor on our yard was asked about the pelham today and would it not be too harsh for a horse. Answer was "no. It works on the same lines as a snaffle when it has the rounding on. Just gives a little extra control. Beter to have a bit that you can control your horse with than a bit you cant"

[Beausowner]

I think it depends on what the horse is happy with. I am spending a fortune on bits trying to find the mildest one he likes and I feel secure with - I was always told by my previous instructor that if he wouldn't go in a single jointed snaffle then there were real problems - she was trying to dissuade me from changing a bit that he had had for three months (jointed fulmer) which he constantly chewed, threw his head when riding and would back off when putting bit in - she said he would just have to get used to it (previously he had been ridden western, I think possibly hackamore). Thankfully ignored her and through trial and error I have discovered he would prefer poll action to tongue and bar pressure, having a very sensitive mouth with large fleshy tongue and low palate - he lets me know which bit he likes. I have been told by several instructors that I have good, sensitive hands, so this is not an issue, but if he is ridden in a single jointed snaffle this to him is far more severe than being ridden in a Myler with hooks (or hanging cheek) which takes the pressure off his tongue.