I Need Help!!!!

[CharlieBrown]

I have a problem with my welsh cob!
He's fat, puts on weight easily, has had laminitis (once, 2 years ago but not since) and is very very lazy.
He is VERY hard on the legs (to the point i have cramp in my legs) and doesn't respond to the aids and he fights me in the hands if i dont give him a long rein.
He's usually a genuine little pony but recently i've been schooling him and he's getting more and more lazy and almost doesn't respond to the legs, he's a lot of hard work. I can't get him to work in an outline, have any sort of impulsion or be forward going in any way. I don't know how make him more forward going or how improve him, and he's so heavy on the forehand.
I have done 3 unaffiliated dressage competitions, and was placed 6th in 2 of them, but so far i have had regular comments of ''on the forehand'', ''unbalanced'' and ''lacks impulsion''. I have been working on him for months but theres no improvement and we're consistently scoring just over 40%.
Does anyone know anyway to help me improve him, or get some more energy and impulsion out of him so i can balance him and teach him lightness. He is my first horse and although i have been riding for over 10 years i feel like i know nothing about how to teach him or improve him! If you can, please help me!!! I really need it!!!
Thanks, Rhi xxx
P.S...Also, i have a picture of him at a local Dressage i did with him, so if anyone knows how to put a picture on here, could you tell me so i can post and you can tell me what you think?!?

[CharlieBrown]

Here's the photo of him...
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/rhistallard/ode.jpg

[notpoodle]

1. he looks absolutely adorable :)

2. i am no expert in this field and not exactly experienced with this sort of thing, so i am sure you will get better suggestions from other NR people :)

is he better on hacks? if he wont respond to your leg, maybe employ a schooling whip and tap him behind the leg the second he ignores your leg. you could also do lots of transitions (walk halt, or walk trot) with him, to keep him awake (done make these too predictable though! i fell into that trap with my pony once and she'd just start trotting or halting at particular points of the arena by herself ... which was not quite what i had in mind :) )


julia
x

[CharlieBrown]

Thanks for the reply
Isn't he beautiful! He's such a character!!!
He is a bit better on hacks than in the school except when we hit grass, he gets a boom of energy and is gone...bum in the air, a few bucks and no brakes, the rest of the time we're out on the hacks, he is just as hard to make walk out and trot as he is in the school!
When we are in traffic, though, he does get very tensed up and i find he is a lot more sensitive and responds to the light touch. He is like a completely different horse when he gets tense, but as soon as he calms down, he goes back to being lazy and difficult. I dont understand him!

[JOJOBA]

Stunning Horse! Look at that neck!
As for the being hard on the leg thing, both Peter Murphy (Showjumper) and Denise O'Reilly (student of Mary Wanless') have done demos on our yard recently and their advice was exactly the same in this field - I dont know what your feelings will be toward it though!
They both said to take your leg off and give 'one hard boot' (Peter) or 'a hard tap' (Denise). The idea is the horse moves forward and then you leave it alone. If it becomes heavy on your leg or backs off, then do it again - then leave it alone.
They said the idea behind it was that the horse doesnt get niggled all the time, and as your legs become tired they ignore you. One sharp forward movement surprises them, and they realise if they move forward from it then they dont get nudged constantly.
Peter said with his horse now he just has to raise his calf away from his side and it moves forward - he never has to wear himself out booting it on all the time. Plus you'll be more relaxed and that will translate to your horse.
Might be worth a try?
As for being on the forehand I dont know what to suggest - lots of rein back and turns on the haunched when warming up to get his bum under him more?

Hope you sort it out :)

Jo
xxx

[CharlieBrown]

I know, his neck his huge! I went to a show once when he was younger and somebody asked me if he was a stallion because of his huge neck and the fact he was being a total idiot (he actually had energy once!!! :D )!
I have been told about the ''sharp nudge'' idea before and wasnt really sure whether it would hurt them loads or cause any damage by a good many people have suggested it. I also read a private lesson by Carl Hester once which also suggested a similar method called 'click and kick' where you nudge the horse and click at the same time.
Thankyou for trying to help, i will try this next time i school him!
Rhixx

[JOJOBA]

I think it shocks them more than hurts them. Ive been trying out this method with my horses and it seems to be working well.
I have just posted a couple of video threads of my cob and the sport horse Im schooling, if anyone fancies a peek (please!)

xxx

[CharlieBrown]

There are 3 other pictures of me from the same event as the earlier picture. The first 2 are of him trotting, and the last is of him trotting on a circle. Sorry about the copyright on it though (and try not to look at my face, im not at all photogenic!!!).

http://www.proeventpix.co.uk/rrcnovdress/rrcode106_jpg.html
http://www.proeventpix.co.uk/rrcnovdress/rrcode107_jpg.html
http://www.proeventpix.co.uk/rrcnovdress/rrcode108_jpg.html

[CharlieBrown]

:( The last link didnt work so try theses :D

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/rhistallard/rrcode108.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/rhistallard/rrcode107.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/rhistallard/rrcode106.jpg

Rhixxx

[Willingbe]

I agree with JOJOBA, don't nudge, give a sharp kick, but also remember to give the rein forward when you do kick so he isn't going to get any contradictory signals.

[dressage1anja]

hello! :)

im really not trying to be mean.. but your horse looks way to out of shape.. have you ever conciderd leasing him out and you both riding him? so that he is worked 2 times a day.. i lease a horse Anja.. and she is riden 2 times a day.. now it is really keeping her inshape.. and is really building her muscles! also maby no grain until he can respect you.. also if he is heavy.. like unbileavibly.. in your hands.. thats hanging.. so everytime he does that.. push him forward.. and usually your not sappouse to check with your hands.. but if he is hanging do that! Now.. for the not moving forward.. you need to ask with your legs politley.. and if he doesnt go from that.. whip!!!!!!!!!! and everytime he doesnt respond to that.. WHIP!!!!!! but if your doing a walk to trot or trot to canter.. and he doesnt respond.. WHIP!!!!! and then do it over.. with out the whip.. but if whip needed USE IT.. but keep doing it over untill u dont need the whip ne more!!! ok? But dont over feed him.. no grazing.. small treats after a GOOD ride only.. GOOD LUCK!!!! PS.. i noticed your not carrying a whip! please do so.. untill he is schooled!


bye!

Anja Rider! ;) :D :o :)

hes got a big neck.. and in that case.. its not very good.. so i give u credit for it!

[galadriel]

He's cute!

Rather than the kick, I'd suggest a schooling whip. It accomplishes the same; takes away your need to "niggle" and makes him pay attention to the aids. But pulling your leg away and then using a lot of energy with a kick will affect your balance and position while you're doing it; it might even make it harder for him to respond, since you'll be moving around so much. A schooling whip will allow you to do the same thing without shiftuing your weight around.

You said he's gotten progressively less responsive, which does sound like he's just tuning out your aids. With some sharpening up of the aids you use (by asking quietly, then using an attention-getter if he doesn't respond to the quiet aid), you can probably improve things greatly.

I do want to suggest that you have his tack checked, just because a horse's back changes a lot. Progressively getting less responsive can also be a reaction to a saddle that's getting less and less comfortable; it's truly difficult for a horse to use his back when it's hurting because the saddle pinches. If his weight is changing, then the fit of the saddle will certainly change.

Something else I'd suggest would be getting some coaching. Having someone on the ground, who can see both you and the horse, who's got experience in just that sort of riding dificulty, can be invaluable. It's amazing how much you can tighten up your riding in just one session with some knowledgeable pointers from someone on the ground. Regular lessons might really help both you and him, to help him learn how to carry himself and use his back end.

[Just.Jump]

Anja, as far as I know, you aren't supposed to carry a whip in dressage (And I don't even do dressage very seriously). This is because you should be able to read very few of a riders singals to their horse- a whip obviously gives that away. Dressage is a sport, but it's supposed to be an art as well, as are most equine activities. In fact, at show-level, whips are only really pushed in racing, I've not seen them in dressage, SJ, or eventing.

Now, CharlieBrown :)
Your guy is NOT fat. I would consider him to be average, as most horses are somewhere along those lines at my own barn. I'd only like to see thinner on higher performance horses, but since your guy is not (yet!) it's not needed. Those of us who like to dance probably aren't the spitting image of a ballet dancer either, but as you go up in levels and take on strenuous training, weight comes off. (In response to Anjas comment about not feeding him grain- quite frankyl, a horse will not understand that at all.)
My mare I ride used to be very heavey on the hands and my legs too, and I've learnt this: you first ask. And then, if the horse doesn't "hear" you, you ask again. That's all the asking you should be doing, after that, you TELL the horse what you want to do. Heavily mouthed horses, for example, are a pain to stop. So ask very softly first. If there is no change, ask firmly, and if still nothing, haul back. It might seem rude/harsh at first, but if the horse is ignoring you, it's just not acceptable. As long as you start out very gentle, everything will end up fine. And another thing- as soon as the horse yeilds, you must give him his head completely, slack reins with no pressure. He needs to re-learn being soft, and that means rewards for the right thing. Horses aren't dogs, and they don't respond to treats or starving, they respond to being able to stop working.

As for the hardness in going forward, I've dealt with this as well. You shouldn't have to hold the horse at his pace, you should be able to touch his sides, have him move on, and not touch him again until you give him a specific aid. At this point, either carry a whip or grab a pair of split reins, which I favor most. When you feel him giving up on you, or he won't get going at all, give him a sharp boot. He should go, and if not, this is where you smack the rump firmly. It's your choice, but I go for the whip when there are no more chances for the horse to listen when asked.

Again, both of these are related to a visual: if you continually rub your palm against something, you get a callouse, and that area is dead to feeling soft touches. However, if you simply hit it once, you get the feeling, and you get the message. If your holding him at the speed, or constantly grabbing at his face to make sure he stays in line, your just deadening him, and it's going to be that much harder later. As odd as it may sound, set him up to make mistakes every so often- it will build manners because he will at first make those mistakes- if you give him his face, he'll dip out, if you let go of his sides he will slow down. This is when you reprimand firmly. This is where you do not ask, as my coach would say, you now have the right to "kill". If he slows down to a lower pace (canter to trot or otherwise), you either kick him forward or smack him forward, or if he turns randomly, you yank hiom back into place. Unless the level of exhaustion or there is pain, a horse should listen to you. Under no circumstances can you let him decide where he's going or how fast he goes, because that teaches him that he doesn't have to listen to you.

And just a note: When i say you have the license to kill, that simply means that you give you horse a kick/tap with the whip as hard as you are comfortable with. All horses are different, and some need it hard and some only need a little tap to wake them up. It's up to your horses standard (He sounds like a horse to boot every so often when he's being naughty. Lovely looking boy though!)

[galadriel]

Actually, a dressage whip is not only competition legal, many dressage riders won't ride without one. At the high levels of competition, there are many, many more riders who ride with whips than without. Try watching videos of Olympic performances.

A whip is a method of communication. By the time you're competing at high levels, you and the horse have thousands of things to say to each other with each stride. In dressage particularly, it is difficult to communicate with just a simple bit, hands, and legs. As a result, in dressage, you will see riders with whips, spurs, and double bridles--because they just can't give all the aids they need with lower-level tools.

In most sports, indeed, the whip is not used the way it is in racing. However, it is a tool used by many, and it certainly has a place. It can also be much kinder to use a whip than to swing a leg out and give a thump of a kick, to kick repeatedly, or to yank on the horse's mouth. A whip is useful and is quite a common tool.

[Just.Jump]

Ah well then, thanks for telling me, I would have been clueless otherwise! I haven't done any reading up about dressage in quite some time, guess I haven't been in contact with alot of accurate information! :rolleyes:

Then again, the only horse activities on TV here is SJ, shuckwagon racing, racing, and a fair few rodeos. I've never actually seen much dressage or eventing other than pictures.. and not often.

Thats another thing to metnion- I admire those of you guys who spend so much time doing these sports so seriously! I'm not one for dressage, at least not yet. The schooling process often leaves me a little frazzled!

[Willingbe]

Actually, a dressage whip is not only competition legal, many dressage riders won't ride without one. At the high levels of competition, there are many, many more riders who ride with whips than without. Try watching videos of Olympic performances.

Sorry to contradict Galadriel but whips are forbidden in International competitions, see the FEI rules: At all international events, it is, under penalty of elimination, forbidden to carry a whip of any kind while competing. However, the use of one whip, with a total maximum length of 110 cm, in the practice area is allowed. The whip must be dropped before entering the space around the competition arena. Only riders, or grooms when riding, walking or lungeing a horse, are allowed to carry a whip on the show grounds.

http://www.horsesport.org/PDFS/D/04_01/Dressage%20Rules-E.pdf

[CharlieBrown]

Thankyou for all of your comments and thanks for trying to help me, but sadly charlie is out of action for a while.
We had some awful heavy rainfall and he slipped in the field hurting his back leg and made his leg swell up quite a lot (and it was the night i was having a lesson with an excellent instructor). So, we gave him a week to see if his leg would improve but during that time we had a lot of sun (it got to 28 degrees!!!!!! very hot for Wales!!!!) and the grass shot up! So, now he is down with laminitis. Its not the first time but at least this time he’s got it mild.
So now he’s on a strict diet and hes losing weight nicely. We’ve had our grass cut in the paddocks and hes started going out for 20mins 3 times a day with a muzzle on. We also got him a snak-a-ball which he adores and he has it half filled twice a day to keep him occupied in the stable and now he doesn’t even want to go out! We put his muzzle on and he goes back in his stable to play with his snak-a-ball!
So hopefully he’ll lose some weight and my mum is going to slowly bring him on back into work while I concentrate on my dressage!
Thankyou for all you comments!

[manfa1]

i think you need to back your leg up with your whip quite a lot dont keep nagging him with your legs if he doesnt respond first time give him a slap.
this is assuming it is just laziness and there is no medical problem

[problem]

heya

** horse sounds a bit like one of the one;s i compete. firstly if u keep nagging at a horse he learns to ignore it, secondly if u use a whip hit him with it don;t just tickle him he will ignore it & not respond @ all as he properly won;t feel it. once good firm smack then ride him forward from the leg will be sufficient.

have u ridden in spurs? if yes maybe try riding him in them if no make sure u learn how to ride in them properly first.

i also find as the horse gets fitter he finds it easier to carry himself therefore more forward goin and off the forehand.

gd luck

[Parisexxx]

Hiya, i agree with problem. My horse was exactly like yours and did not want to work wat so ever!!!!

With my spurs, my horse responds so much better as he now respects my aids and listens.

I woluld try using spurs (make sure u know how to use them first and never forget you have them on!!!!)

Parise xx

[ExtendedTrot]

My suggestion is a whip/stick for schooling and even warm up before shows that way you can keep him moving off of your leg. Also, if you are showing lower levels I believe that you are permitted to carry a whip. My second suggestion is a pair of spurs. Get instructed on how to use them, however, if you are unsure. There are many different types to choose from. If you have never used them then I would go with a blunt tip short pair, if they don't work, grauate to a longer pair. Check with a trainer/instructer/even a local tack shop for suggestions

Happy Riding:)

[Just.Jump]

Thats what I've come to know as well, Willingbe!

Decided to see I'm just really really not with the dressage aspect of riding.. it appears not. These are Olympic/High level photos.

http://www.peggyjsmith.homestead.com/files/olympic_dressage_bay1.jpg

http://www.cmannphoto.com/Photoshop%20pages/2004%20Dressage%20Trials/Friday/images/4dst0543.jpg

http://www.cortijochand.com/evento%201%20-%20rl.jpg

No whips to be seen!