Dressage saddle for *very* high withers?

[Scarlett 001]

My instructor is starting the search via her many contacts for a saddle for Skeeter. In the meantime, a quick web search seemed to indicate that some of the Kieffer dressage saddles are cutback and are good for high-withered horses.

My first question is what dressage saddles have people on here found to be suitable for very high withered horses? Skeeter's withers are unusually high and so a cutback saddle might be best. Does anyone have a kieffer dressage saddle and what do they think of it?

Secondly, suppose one wants to try out a Kieffer but one needs to go used. There are used ones on ebay and in classified ads posted here and there, but none in Calgary region. What does one do? Can I maybe test or borrow one from someone to see how it works, and then try and locate a used one from another location if need be??? I am sure my instructor can answer some of these questions when I next see here, but any information I can get in advance might be helpful. Thanks! :)

p.s. CityGirl mentioned her Bates saddle was good for high withers (hers is not dressage saddle though) and you could change gullet size. This could be useful as Skeeter is bound to gain weight and change shape over the next while. I hear the Wintec Isabelle Werth dressage saddle has all the same features as the Bates Isabelle Werth dressage saddle - only difference is that it is synthetic so costs less - it has a changeable gullet. Any thoughts on the Wintec Isabelle Werth as an option?

[galadriel]

Reemmber that a *lot* of people accidentally place saddles too far forward. The problem of prominent withers is often much less than people would think, once you've got the saddle in the correct position :) I think you've seen pictures of Duch & Kat--if not, here are a few:
http://galadriel.shaftnet.org/horses/id-photos/duchess.html
http://galadriel.shaftnet.org/horses/id-photos/katherine.html

Both are ridden in saddles with regular pommels (not cut back) and have quite a reasonable amount of clearance.

As much as I like my Kieffer, I think I might recommend against used Kieffers. They have a synthetic tree which is designed to be adjustable by heating with a heat gun--the problem is, when these saddles are left in very hot areas (garage, back seat of a car, even a tack room) they may heat up enough to deform--into the shape of whatever is supporting them or they're leaning against. Used Kieffers I've seen usually have a torque to one side or the other, just because at some point they were accidentally "adjusted" with excess heat. Even mine was this way!

So you've got both the problem that the saddle may not be straight--AND that the wear on the saddle is subsequently likely to be uneven. So if you get a Kieffer, you'd likely have to have it adjusted immediately and probably have it reflocked. It can be straightened out, of course, but if you're looking for a used saddle to minimize cost, probably don't want to go with one that's probably going to require several hundred dollars' worth of work right away.

For an inexpensive saddle, I'd suggest a Thorowgood Griffin; you may have seen me post about these before. Duchess has an AP and I like it on her quite a lot. I'd happily use it on Kat if I weren't using it on Duch; it would fit her if I tweaked it a bit. Again, both have quite a lot of wither and the T'good without a cutback pommel works on them just fine.

For a really good used saddle, I'd suggest a County, but even used they're likely to be quite expensive.

Every brand has its examples of terrible saddles...there are some which are excellent. A lot of the time you just have to define what kind of saddle you want, then look individually at the various saddles you find. Some may be excellent, some may be horrifying. You just can't say overall "X brand is good" or Y brand is bad"...

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks for reply! Very useful!

I found a company in Canada that sells Thorowgoods. This seems to be the dressage saddle:
www.greenhawk.net/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/scstore/p-RIE3662.html?L+scstore+qkfx0763ff2f192f+1120782111
They only have medium and wide widths available - is this an issue for Skeeter I wonder? They have a package that includes all sorts of extras - bridle, saddle pad, stirrup leathers, girth etc. - for about $150 extra.

p.s. I am attaching some pics of Skeeter in side view just out of interest (the last pic was taken a year ago, but it shows the wither well). Part of the problem is that he also lacks topline muscle. Is an adjustable gullet necessary or can adjustments be made to a Thorowgood as he gains weight?

[Tangle]

This is Danny, who was our loan horse last summer. He's a 17hh warmblood and (believe it or not) he looks a lot more muscled here than he did when we first got him :eek:
http://www.equusphotography.co.uk/gallery/d/6612-1/IMG_5386_edited-1.jpg
http://www.equusphotography.co.uk/gallery/d/6615-1/IMG_5392_edited-1.jpg
http://www.equusphotography.co.uk/gallery/d/6618-1/IMG_5397_edited-1.jpg
Even given the amount of wither and the amount of muscle wastage behind his shoulders, he went pretty well in a Wintec and then in an Albion - neither of which were cut back styles.

Not saying either of these would necessarily work for you and Skeeter, but (from my experience) you can get a decent fit from a "normal" saddle on a high withered horse. Good luck with the tack shop :)

Galadriel - are they your girls' identity shots? Reminds me that we've been meaning to do Fifi since we got her and haven't got round to it - good to have a reference of what pics to take ;)

[Scarlett 001]

Well, I guess one just has to be patient and something will turn up. I will see what my instructor turns up with - and perhaps discuss the Thorowgood and Wintec saddles with her (I can borrow a Wintec Isabell Werth from a tack store located very close to my stables).

I guess I was a bit dismayed when my instructor tried about about 6 saddles in her tack room and they all (except one) bumped Skeeter's wither badly even before any weight was put on the saddle - and the other one hit his wither once we put weight on the saddle.

p.s. Is it just me, or do Skeeter's withers seem to extend backwards quite far? Maybe I am imagining this. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: It was the lower, back part of the wither that had the rub marks from the previous poor fitting saddle. Maybe the issue is his lack of topline muscle so the saddle drops down and hits the wither?

[princesaysneigh]

Sorry to hijack your thread Scarlett :o , but do you have any photos of incorrect and correct saddle positioning galadriel?

[KarinUS]

Sorry, can't really help with high withers. Missy has funny withers that go pretty far back on her back- hence we had trouble finding a Western saddle that fit her well.
DJ is actually not bad wither-wise but DJ and I love his County Competitor 2000. I got it used. Of the internet! :eek:
And I still paid an arm and a leg though.
When I got my County Eventer I tried an older model from Trumbull (http://www.trumbullmtn.com/Saddle_%20pages/Used_Dressage/USEDdressage.htm) Saddlery. I found a better deal and send that one back but they were very nice. Just because you buy online doesn't mean you can't try it out at all!
There are also places where you can rent saddles for a month to try them out!
I shall take a peak at a side view of the Skeeterling! :)

[kedwards]

Hi Scarlett, I mentioned the cutbacks on another thread, but it certainly isn't the only option. I use a medium-treed Cliff-Barnsby dressage saddle on Bud and it fits him well (with adjustment in the flocking from my saddler).

Withers can, indeed, be long as well as high. But, as you said, they may not be quite so prominent once Skeeter's back muscles up more.

As for fitting, if you get a used wool-flocked saddle, it is possible to make adjustments as your horse changes shape. I get my saddles checked and (if necessary) re-adjusted periodically.

If you are eyeing a particular model and have access to one you can try locally, that certainly is ideal. Some sellers (though not on e-bay) may also allow you to take a saddle on trial.

I actually did take the chance and purchase my saddle from a place that didn't allow exchanges or returns. I'd had the chance to try another saddle of the same brand and size, so felt fairly certain that it would fit. However, I still wouldn't have ordered it this way had it not been for the fact that the price was discounted enough that I knew I could have resold it if it didn't fit. In fact, I had two people tell me they were interested immediately when it arrived. Fortunately, my saddle-fitter thought it was a great fit (with some minor readjustments in the flocking), so I got to keep it for me and Bud.

[galadriel]

Yes, it does look like his withers extend back way beyond his shoulder. He's got a rather upright shoulder, and it's just forward set. In his case, I'd just set the saddle further back. If the seat is centered over the ribcage, then it's not too far back--even if it's nowhere near the shoulderblade in front. He's got a roomy ribcage, so you have lots of space to play around.

Hey, the Griffin Dressage is even on sale! Nifty. I've been to Greenhawk's site before; I think someone on NR mentioned it as a good site with good prices, but I've never personally bought anything from them.

Even when a horse looks very thin across the top, remember that a saddle size is talking about the *angle* at the *shoulder*--doesn't have anything to do with topline. Even a horse who's thin on top is likely to take at least a Medium tree. The horses who typically take a narrow are gaited, who have shoulders built differently from non-gaited horses. (Though not all gaited horses will be narrow across the shoulders...it's just that a non-gaited horse is very UNlikely to need a narrow.)

It's funny the range of back shapes that will take a Medium. Once on the same day I measured a horse like Kat (thin across the top, huge withers, slab-sided, etc) and a fat little mutton-withered Arab...both took a Medium :)

[galadriel]

Sorry to hijack your thread Scarlett :o , but do you have any photos of incorrect and correct saddle positioning galadriel?

Saddle position will depend on the horse every time. The front of the saddle should be behind the shoulderblade, at least two fingers. Every horse's shoulderblade is a little different, so the only way to be sure is to feel it out.

The shoulderblade is the prominent bulge directly below the wither. f you feel around to the back of it, there will be a point that is farther back. The saddle needs to rest behind that point.

(A Western saddle, incidentally, may have a few inches of skirting in front of the tree. It's okay for the skirting to sit a little more forward; it's the weight-bearing part that needs to be well behind the shoulderblade.)

[chev]

Willow has a Wintec 2000 Dressage with a Korrector pad - she has very high withers combined witha sway back which makes saddle fitting well near impossible. The Wintec fits like a dream - the pad basically fills in where it's needed. She goes well in it, is very happy, and it's a lovely saddle to ride in. :)

[Scarlett 001]

I posted in my other current thread that unfortunately the Wintec 500 dressage that I borrowed from a tack store did not fit.

In the meantime, my instructor is searching for saddles for a couple of new horses at the barn and found a few possibilities for Skeeter that are being sent here from another city this week. They are < $1000 Cdn (< 470 pounds or 820 USD) in cost and are new. Didn't catch the make, but she has a lot of contacts across the province and seems capable of getting better deals. And no worries, she knows a lot about saddle fitting so Skeeter will get a good fit.

I'll update this thread once I hear some news.

[galadriel]

Good luck finding a good one at a price you can swallow :)

[Funky MeerKAT]

I have found that the Isabel fits my horse well, and he has truely mountainous whither!! Unfortunately I don't like riding in the Isabel. I use an Anky, it is about a size too wide for my horse and I pad it up, I find it works really well, it sits high enough to clear his whithers really well and the extra width means he has more room to move.

[Scarlett 001]

Good luck finding a good one at a price you can swallow :)

Thanks! :) Even the thorowgood was about $700 Cdn, and my instructor said these saddles she found are less than $1000 Cdn. Not that much difference.

I have resorted to your trick of eating lots of sandwiches this month (I remember you saying that on a thread in which I asked about financial sacrifices of horse ownership)! :p This is the last big initial one-time cost I have left. Then it is the monthly costs (which my budget can handle just fine thank goodness!) and any incidentals and vet bills. I am going to save some money over the next half year and put it in a special horse/cat vet bills and car repair emergency fund.

[KarinUS]

My first saddle was a Courbette Pandur Eventing saddle (AP).
I got it for $800 because it was a close out. Retail would have been $1,600 when it was first sold.
Seems like a pretty good deal and Courbette sounds like a good brand, right? I even watched out to get the German made kind (wool-flocking) rather than the Swiss made (foam).
The saddle was really too banana shaped to fit DJ's straight back though. In fact without a wedge it would be tough to find any horse swaybacked enough to do well in it.
So instead of saving $800 by buying the bargain I wasted $800. :rolleyes:
It seems the market is always swamped with these Courbette super deals. Not sure why. I am also not sure why they aren't as super as their reputation. Looking forward to see what kind your instructor can come up with! :)

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks for advice Karin - the more tips I have the better. Did anyone help you with the saddle fitting for this saddle? If so, why weren't the problems noticed at the time I wonder...

My instructor is very picky about horses, their care and what she puts on their back, so I am hoping she will come up with some good options. I await in anticipation. I am sure it will be better than the generic old worn saddles he's had on his back for this past few years.

Tomorrow Skeeter gets his feet done by the farrier that everyone at this place swears by. They are horribly overdue to be done, and are quite the mess. I recall his feet were always ignored at the place I used to ride him (he was not a top priority for that stables to spend $$$ on :() - my new instructor wondered if this could have led to that tendon injury he had last year. It was never really explained properly to me what exactly happened and led to the injury. He was jumping pretty high at the time, and if his feet were unbalanced and a mess...

Skeeter's coat and mane/tail are looking pretty spiffy by the way. We gave him a nice wash upon arrival, and he has been being hosed down with water a few times each week - he seems to really enjoy this as a part of his new routine which is nice. Guess it feels good in light of the flies and heat and such. He must wonder why all the fuss and attention is happening!!! Just wait til he puts on weight and he is well muscled! Can't wait to post before and after pics in a few months!

I am totally enjoying spoiling this boy! It is a really fun project to learn to care for him, and moreover to have a horse for which results will be visible!

p.s. Just realized I digressed and most of this post had nothing to do with saddles!!! :p

[Yann]

It's lovely to hear how much you're enjoying him:) He sounds like a lucky chap.

I assume they're the same where you are but here all the new Griffin models come with Fish inserts which are little plastic strips which go into a pocket and alter the fit. Each saddle comes with 2 sets, one for half a size and another a full size narrower. So you could get a wide for example, and put the Fish in to make it a medium until he starts to widen out. Thorowgood do make a specific high wither saddle, but it only goes up to medium, which may or may not be wide enough. Good luck with the search.

[galadriel]

Oh, boy, sandwiches! Although, in all honesty, part of the reason we eat lots of sandwiches is that neithr of us can cook ;)

You still sound so happy and bubbly :) It's so heartwarming.

[Scarlett 001]

Oh, boy, sandwiches! Although, in all honesty, part of the reason we eat lots of sandwiches is that neithr of us can cook ;)

You still sound so happy and bubbly :) It's so heartwarming.

I can cook a little, I suppose. But living alone it just seems pointless to put in much effort sometimes. Frozen perogies are another cheap and easy meal to rescue this month's budget!

Yes, you have read posts all along and you know how much I loved this horse from day one. He's a special boy. Just felt like I caught him at the right time. 19 years old and being up for sale could have led to an uncertain future. He was too thin, and if he was not cared for properly and overworked at the same time, he could have had a rough go. He certainly landed on his feet, and in turn he is going to be a great first horse for me. I like mutual relationships - and this is definitely one. :)

[sidesaddlelady1]

After a seemingly endless search for a saddle to fit the Wonder Horse's high withers (including some helpful suggestions from this board), I have found the ideal one. At this point I have to say that I am a leather snob. I flatly refused to have anything to do with a synthetic saddle until soundly told off by my saddler who said that my prejudices weren't important but the horse's comfort was! Suitable chastened, I agreed to try one and consequently I have ended up with a Griffin "Selecta" saddle. It has interchangeable knee pads for dressage, jumping and general purpose and also a set of thigh rolls which all attach with a couple of heavy duty press studs and industrial strength velcro (hook and loop fastening). It has a very cut back head that completely clears The WH's withers. He goes like a dream in it and I have never sat on a more comfortable astride saddle in 52 years of riding. I am absolutely converted - especially as all I do to the "suede" bits to bring them back into pristine cleanliness is to rub them over with a piece of clean towelling and wipe the rest with a damp cloth or the special cleaner. Mine's black but I believe you can now get it in brown.

Hope this helps

[clipclop]

i am currently using an Albion legend Dressage saddle. However it isn't the later k2 model it is an original legend by Albion they were a lot more expensive and I believe the tree was diferent too.

[herbyhorse]

I'm really glad for you.

it sounds like he has a true partner.

hope you find a saddle which is comfy, I'd say try Balance but I know they are in very short supply over there, an albion is also good becayse it's set back further, I'd also say go wider so you can pad up for the between stage until he muscle's up.

I hope you have loads of fun together

HH

[Scarlett 001]

My instructor is in the process of getting some possible saddles sent to Calgary from a neighbouring city. But what if these saddles don't work out? What else should I be doing? Is it normal to feel so confused as to what to do. I have a horse with very high withers, a need for dressage saddle (fewer on market around Calgary) and budget restrictions.

Should I be doing anything else? I could order in a Thorowgood from Toronto, but if it does not fit I have to deal with shipping fees to send back etc. Maybe I should check out other saddles once they arrive before doing that. I have looked at most tack stores around here, and nothing affordable in dressage new or used. I could place a wanted ad in the Alberta Dressage Classifieds and see what turns up. There are a few saddles for sale, but how do I know if they will possibly fit high withers and make sure I don't waste my time.

Is it normal for the saddle buying process to be long and difficult? I am guessing so, in which case I need to learn how to be patient...

[KarinUS]

Is it normal for the saddle buying process to be long and difficult? I am guessing so, in which case I need to learn how to be patient...

Yes, absolutely! That's why eventually people get desperate and buy whatever saddle fits even if it is a bit above budget. :D
I bet Galadriel still remembers the gazillions of emails I sent her with pictures of saddles on DJ. :rolleyes: