Me and my girl

[chapsi]

As you know, I've decided to sell my mare, considering she is not suitable for a nervous rider like myself. Since Pegs died I hardly visit her and I've been looking for another suitable riding horse. She has been a very expensive garden ornament so far. Breeding a foal in a livery situation is finantially not viable; I simply cannot any longer afford two liveries as I did at some point.
Unfortunately, life isn't all that easy and unless I sell her, I shan't be able to buy my schoolmaster.

There have been a couple of remote chances to give her as part exchange, but somewhat I haven't been all that inclined, mainly because I am not sure she would get a good future, most llikely she would become a broodmare until she was too old to produce her foals (and then what?).

Lately, the last few times I visited, she seemed particulary clinggy and pleased to see me, as if she was trying to tell me not to sell her. This is upsetting me, I'm having second thoughts. deep down, I don't want to part with her.

Yesterday I went to the yard. My OH took some pictures of us together. Back home, I looked at the pictures and I realised that I never looked so relaxed with any other horse.
Why, oh why do I need to sell her? why am I so hopelessly nervous? I wish I could ride her, I wish I could keep her, then my horse seek would be over...

Rija has the kindest, gentle temperament, even when she is in season...

Do you think I should keep her as a pet horse and forget about having a riding horse? I suppose I could only ride school horses, couldn't I?!

What would you do? I repeat, I can no longer keep two horses livery...

[chapsi]

A few more pictures.

[chapsi]

Another picture, cortesy of Nix, who loved meeting my mare.
How can I find the heart to sell such a beautiful mare like her?

[*toHorse&Away*]

Back home, I looked at the pictures and I realised that I never looked so relaxed with any other horse.
Why, oh why do I need to sell her? why am I so hopelessly nervous? I wish I could ride her, I wish I could keep her, then my horse seek would be over...


Are you 100% sure you couldn't try again with her?
She looks beautiful and you look very comfy together?
I have read some of your old posts when I was lurking and I know you have had a tough time.
It would be sad to sell her an regret it.

I so hope it works out

[chapsi]

oooops

[Shiva]

dear chapsi,
It is costly keeping a horse in livery and if your mare is
stabled most of the time she will be full of beans. perhaps
you could rent a piece of grazing to keep her on. It would
be cheaper and I'm sure she would be a more laid back
mare.

[chapsi]

She in livery, but outdoors! She has been ever since I bought her, over a year ago.

[KarinUS]

Chapsi,

having just recently seen you ride a strange stallion without even a helmet on I can't believe you consider yourself a nervous rider! ;)

Wenn I read your current post I had to think of a poem by Goethe. Your husband is German, isn't he? Do you speak it?

Warum in die Ferne schweifen wenn das Gute liegt so nah?
Lerne nur das Glueck ergreifen, denn das Glueck ist immer d.a!

Perhaps you have already found what you are looking for but it is too close for you to see? She does seem like a sweet, intelligent girl. Do you still board at the same place as Olav did? Perhaps they can work more intensively with your mare and help her be a more reliable partner to you?

I really don't think it's an all-or-nothing question. Look at Peace and Quanah. Just because they can't be a team now doesn't mean that ultimately they won't be. Small steps will cover a lot of ground if you just keep going in the right direction. :)
I know that with Pegaso it was pretty much a question of 'accept things as they are' or let go but this mare is not destined to be forever what she is now. She has the capacity to learn and evolve- and so do you.
Neither one of you has to be perfect from the start as long as you are both willing to work towards becomming better partners for each other.
Her heart already seems to be in the right place. :)

[galadriel]

What would it take to get her--and possibly you--the training to make her suitable for you to ride?

[Grace]

Hi Chapsi! She is a lovely looking girl! I am sorry if I missed this in your previous posts, but why is it easier/less nerve-wracking to ride the stallion than your mare? Just as others have posted, is there any way through a combination of training of you and Rija that you could keep her? When I first got my horse I was too novice and he was so young/green that I couldn't even ride him! But over the months, I kept getting lessons on school horses, and my horse kept being 'trained' (no fancy stuff just walk, trot canter) till finally I got on him to ride. Even then it was in lesson situations and only walk and trot. I am a 'mature' (well at least age wise) ;) nervous rider, so don't use my progress as a benchmark, but my horse and I are still happy partners and still taking lessons!

I have to second Karin's astonishment though. In the pictures of you riding the stallion at canter, you look like a pro!

[~Perdita.M~]

As the others have said Chapsi...........how old is she? What is is that she does that makes her not suitable for a helmetless stallion riding owner? ;) Seriously, if she is young, can she not be brought on for you you for a few years even, whilst your confidence and experience grows on school schoolmasters? :)

[ambatt]

Chapsi - you can work with Rija and maybe, just maybe she is the horse of your heart.
Having ridden the Iberian boys I can imagine they are more disciplined and easier to ride than the girls!
Maybe Tina (and I) could come out?

Rija is beautiful - if I could afford her I would come and try her :D

[Tootsie4U]

I'd suggest that before you make any decisions, you give her the benefit of the doubt and exhaust all opportunities with her so you don't have a regret situation.

Try to see her as much as possible for a month or so. Let her be snuggly and cuddly and allow yourself to reciprocate those feelings. Sit with her while she grazes and just read a book.

If you find yourself liking her more and more, I think you'll have your answer.

[StephA]

Hi,

Im really sorry you are feeling like this. How long have you had her?

I dont know if this helps but when I got Harry I had had planty of horses before him but he taught me that you can have all the experience in the world and still come across something that slows you or even knocks you back. I found him really hard to deal with and he really knocked my confidence. I was seriously considering selling him. But with a bit of help (a few tears) and alot of determination I have come out the other side feeling so much better about myself and knowing I have learnt alot. We now have 'clicked' and although I am sure in the future I will, again, come across horses that are difficult Im glad I stuck at it because I now have the confidence in myself to be able to keep going in the future because I know I can do it.

What I am trying to say in my little witter is that if you still have the feeling inside that something can come of this then just keep trying...she may need it and you will feel so much better in yourself.

Good luck x x

[Bay Mare]

I'm with Galadriel on this. Could you either send her away for training or get someone to come to you?

You look so relaxed with her, and you are coming across that you don't really want to let her go. If I were you I would try everything that I could to see if I could get her to work for me.

I know that you were devastated by Pegs' death and everything surrounding it but it seems that you are now finding love for Rija. How about taking things slowly? Give both you and her time. Get someone to help you. You don't seem ready to give up on her yet, maybe this is the first step on your road to 'recovery'.

All the best x

[chapsi]

I everybody. I guess I ought to explain a bit more of Rija, although I thought you were all ready aware.
She has been with me by over a year now and she has been getting excellent professional training from both my trainer and my YO (same place where Sábia was trained; in fact she is Sábia's half sister).

When I bought her last year, she was a deeply unhappy horse, I even dare to say in need of rescue. My idea was to breed off her, so that the sale of her foals would cover her livery expenses- I'm not a wealthy person, I already had Pegs and realistically I couldn't afford two rescues, let alone two liveries.
Then, I made some rational mathematics (before it was emotional mathematics :o ) and came to the conclusion that it was not financially viable to breed foals in livery.
So, then came plan B into action, i.e. to train her as riding horse. She was already broken and ridden, could even do established spanish walk. However, one could see this mare had been badly trained, she was (and still is) afraid of being schooled, gets in a mad panic.
For nearly 18 months her training has been taken care with lots of patience, calm, going back to basics. She now hacks happily, and behaves wonderfully for her riders, even goes to regional gatherings with dozen of strange horses ridden by mad men and stallions! :eek:

But, I'm a nervous rider. And she is just like me. We are 100% alike. I look at her and I see my mirror. Her kindness, gentleness, but lack of confidence, insecurity, lack of assertiveness, always allowing other horses to boss her around (unless they are younger; even her 1 y.o. filly used to pinch her food). It makes me laugh, but also sad; Rija's social interaction resembles my own at work... :(

Still. Enough psychotheraphy. :rolleyes:
I started to ride her in school last year. Nothing fancy, just walking. She sudenly carted off with me and whizzed fast around school (she does it in school), no brakes. I fell off. Rode again. Again I was carted off. Since then I haven't ridden her. I fear she'll cart me off again and it was a hair raising experience. :eek:
I think that she senses my nervousness and fear, and then she feels insecure too. It's no good, we are too alike! :( I dare to think riding her in a hack.

And so, this is my predicament. It's tearing my heart to think about parting, but I fear for my safety. She needs a bold, fearless rider. Somebody like Galadriel would be fine, but not the likes of me.

Having said all this, I haven't been able to sell her. Perhaps it's not meant to... Besides, I'll only sell her to a special home. In the meantime, we're together, and soon she'll get plenty of attention.
In fact, I am planning to bring her closer to home (I have to travel 55km, 1 hour each way just to see her; too much just to groom a mare), to a place where there will be nobody but me and her (no other clients, no trainer, just the estate owner's two horses). Who knows, perhaps we both need this break?!

As for the stallion. He was magical, I could trust him with my life. He put me back on the saddle. By comparison, soon as I seat on Rija, she speeds up and out of the blue she can whizz...

Anyway, thank you for your replies. I feel the overall consensus is to try further.

One final comment. After Pegasy's death, I resented her. It's taken awhile to open my heart to her. I resented being left horseless, but stuck with an expensive garden ornament...

KarinUs, vielen Dank. Ich habe das Gedicht sehr gut verstanden. :) Sie sind recht.

[chapsi]

[QUOTE]Seriously, if she is young, can she not be brought on for you you for a few years even, whilst your confidence and experience grows on school schoolmasters?

Perdita, she's 7 y.o. It's a good plan what you are suggesting, but I am have a very impatient nature, I don't want to be waiting years to get my riding horse, having to feel deprived. I'm 44! Soon I'll be full of osteoporosis. Life is slipping fast now. I'm no spring chick. :(

[Grace]

Chapsi, is it possible to perhaps lunge her before a lesson to get 'the edge off' so to speak and then ride her in a very controlled lesson environment (e.g.. perhaps on the lunge for a while, then just walk). That way your confidence could gradually build so that every time you get on her it just gets better and better? Who knows? Your relationshop might just progress in leaps and bounds once you start to build a trust with her!!

I had to smile when I read your mention of your age. I am 47 and my horse is 9 (I got him when he was 3 1/2) and he is my first horse and I started to learn to ride at 40ish. He is a nervous, sensitive anglo-arab and I have to ride him very calmly or things start to unravel. A few weeks ago I fell and my confidence was shaken, so it was back to the lunge with me until I felt more in control. Just a suggestion! :) I just don't know of any way to speed things up.

[Vicki&Milo]

Sorry, I know this seems like a very niave and simplistic view of the situation, and I may well have missed something, but would it not be an option to loan her out and, by covering your costs this way, take on another horse on loan yourself. This way she could get some experience and training and you can gain some confidence.
Maybe spending time with another horse will allow you to see whether keeping her long term is a good idea or not without having to commit fuller right now.
Vicki

[Peace]

Our situations are pretty similar, I think. :) Not that Quanah is anybody's idea of sweet and sensitive :eek: - think instead of the little boy with perenially skinned knees who likes putting frogs down the girls' dresses :p - but both of us have horses who can perform well for other people and can do the same for us, once we develop the necessary skills. They are our mirrors, very much so, because they have the ability to show us our absolute true selves and don't allow us to pretend to be someone we're not.

I know it ain't easy. I remember once last year, as I was leading Bram through the pasture to the riding ring, Quanah lead a charge of every horse in the pasture straight for us at a dead run. I was shaking so badly by the time I got to the ring I couldn't even mount my horse for some minutes. I remember telling Cathy at the time that I didn't even want to think about ever riding that beast! Honestly, there was a time when I was even afraid to lead him around. So you're really much farther ahead than I was - you and Rija get along great on the ground! :)

My advice is to keep on taking lessons on the schoolhorses and just spend more time with Rija. Sometimes the most trivial things can end up boosting your confidence. For instance, I got up the nerve to ride Quanah again after we were standing together ringside at a show once. A horse near us spooked towards me and Quanah moved around to put himself between me and the other horse. Silly, I know, but it gave me the idea that he really was a pretty good-hearted little fellow, and I started to trust him (a little bit) again.

In my case, I know how to be assertive but only as an adversary, as I do in the courtroom. So Quanah's helping me learn how to be a better leader, and I find it spills over into my non-horsey life as well. I guess that's why equine-assisted therapy works. I bet Rija can help you work on things you'd like to change, too.

Think how proud you'll be of yourself once you develop into the kind of rider Rija needs you to be! :) And I know you can do it - we 44 year old women can do amazing things! :D

[cvb]

Chapsi

I'm all for actively engaging in your fate, but are you trying to make a decision when you don't need to ? If I recall right, she's not selling right now, and you have dropped the price once ? Why not just stick to your guns (and your price) for the moment, keep her on the market, but also start to work with her as much as you can cope with and be happy ?

That way you keep her active, keep you active, and don't close any doors at all.

I appreciate the downside of this is that you can't look for your schoolmaster horse. But maybe he/she is not really out there yet or you're not truely ready.

something up there is putting the brakes on this.. perhaps you should just go with the flow for a little bit. A few months here and there is not going to ruin her or your future.

I know you won't want to let it drift for ever - but maybe time will provide an answer (the right rider etc)...

(I have something similar going on with selling and buying houses - so have my fingers crossed right now as I'm doing one (buying) before the other =(selling) :eek: )

[mad mare1]

Chapsi, I know what you are going through. When my mare arrived, she wasn't broken, and she was 9 years old, and had only ever been used for breeding, and the odd in hand show. She was as wild as the wind, and for the first six months, I hated her. I wanted to send her back to her previous owners, and I really resented her tantrums. Now 11 years later, I can honestly say that to lose her would be like losing my right arm, she is part of me, and I am part of her. We are now an inseperable team, and trust each other completely. Don't give up, keep going, and YOU WILL GET THERE.

PM me if you want a talk hun, I do understand.

[chapsi]

Even after being linged, she can still trigger her whizzing mood in school. There is no stopping her...

She is fabulous to ground handle, and she knows I'm hers, but I don't trust her a bit under saddle. It will take a lot of guts to sit on her (and I'm not fearless).

If I cannot sell her, of course I'll have to keep her and make the most out of the situation. Who knows, maybe a miracle will occur...

Mind you, I never had the idea of having a mare; my life biggest ambition is to go to Golegã Fair with my own horse. How could I possibly ride a nymphomaniac mare in the middle of hundreds of stallions????? :eek: :eek:

[shandy84]

"How could I possibly ride a nymphomaniac mare in the middle of hundreds of stallions?????"

now that could be interesting, but there are miracles out there :)

In regards to your mare have you tried riding her and being led by someone she trusts on the ground or being led off a horse she trusts, having youngsters has taught me sometimes things that seem too simple to us make the biggest difference to them and a little confidence may be all it takes.

I do echo toots though enjoy her make a fuss of her and just be near her and recover, she seems very sweet and that in itself could help you in finding the next perfect horse, you never know they may be closer than you think given time ;)

[OlavS]

Dear Maria

I know you've tried and tried to make your happiness with horses for the longest time, with no luck. And at some point I agreed with you that the solution was to sell Rija and buy a school master, the horse of your dreams, a stallion... Well, that's what I thought until I saw the pictures of you leading Rija! I have never seen you so relaxed around any horse!

Do you know why Rija freaks out in the sand school? Fear? You say "there's no stopping her".... you are using a very mild bit, probably a rubber Pelham, right? How about trying something else, like a hackamore? Something that can be used gently, but with plenty of brakes should the need arise, with instant release the moment she slows down. You know I'm not a fan of severe bits, or any gadgets, but there are times when a slightly stronger bit is called for. One very good reason is for the nerves of the rider. If you successfully keep her in check when she tries to take off you will gain confidence, the mare would learn that running isn't an option, nor desired, and soon you'll be back to your regular, milder bit. :)

I haven't seen Rija in season I don't think, as I haven't seen her all that messy. But Sábia is the biggest flirt, and she was totally fine at Golega, as were the other mares. Well, apart from when I parked Ernesto next to Estrella or Patanicha, but that was purely my stupidity, not the mare's fault :rolleyes:

[KarinUS]

Do you know why Rija freaks out in the sand school? Fear? You say "there's no stopping her".... you are using a very mild bit, probably a rubber Pelham, right? How about trying something else, like a hackamore? Something that can be used gently, but with plenty of brakes should the need arise, with instant release the moment she slows down. You know I'm not a fan of severe bits, or any gadgets, but there are times when a slightly stronger bit is called for. One very good reason is for the nerves of the rider. If you successfully keep her in check when she tries to take off you will gain confidence, the mare would learn that running isn't an option, nor desired, and soon you'll be back to your regular, milder bit. :)


I never thought the day would come but I am actually disagreeing with you on that! :p
I believe taht punishing fear is wrong. Not just ethically wrong but simply wrong in terms of being able to improve a situation. If she truly is nervous and runs because she is fearful then what is using a stronger bit going to do? It will just make her feel more trapped and fearful- not less.
I would focus on removing her fears. Removing the reason for her to bolt will make her a safer horse than trying to contain her when she freaks out.
I know second-hand from what it is like to be fearful of riding a horse. My poor OH had gotten terribly nervous of riding his horse after she threw him several times, and even broke his ribs.
A nervous rider on a nervous horse is a dangerous combination. :( But I believe the solution would be to gain trust in each other rather than instilling more fear. :confused:
What did work was taking it slow. Removing the fear. When he first got back on I actually would walk beside the two of them and chit-chat away hoping to calm them both down or perhaps just bore them into submission... ;)
Then let them walk by themselves. Just walk. Just practice transitions. Just practice listening. She actually hasn't bolted or bucked since we brought her home and where the curb bit couldn't stop her from bolting she accepts the communication from the bitless bridle much more readily.
Anway. Hopefully nobody will take offense to this. I just wanted to share my experience/ opinion on this... :)

[TWH Addict]

You love her, but do you want to ride her? If not, give her the kindess and consideration she deserves and sell her to a good home. You should enjoy riding and if you have tried everything and she is not the horse for you, dont put yourself though this. Get a horse you feel confident and relaxed with, enjoy yourself and make sure your mare finds a good home.. Best of luck.

[Shiva]

Chapsi. have you tried riding her with an older, bombproof, calm horse, beside
her? and an experienced rider too of course. I'm sure she would take her cue from
such a companion in moments of stress or excitement. In my own experience
I found this helped a great deal.

[OlavS]

That's fine, Karin, I never actually thought I would suggest to someone to use a stronger bit either, but I did for two reasons.

1) Rija may run because of something other than fear. For one, it could be that the trainer uses the same saddle for many horses, and that it doesn't suit or even fit Rija particularly well. Even if Maria were to ride Rija would assume that she har her trainer's saddle and react accordingly. Not a good reason to use a stronger bit...but she *could* theoretically be bored or just take the mickey, and those *would* be good reasons to tell her off for running.

2) You don't have to use a bit strongly even if the bit is capable of inflicting a higher pressure than a milder bit. Just knowing that the possibility is there might calm the rider's nerves, which will calm the horse. Being tanked off with is (to my understanding) by far Maria's biggest fear up in the saddle, and not long ago she rode a testosterone bomb with only a mild Pelham and the softest aids.

In my opinion there are many roads yet unexplored when it comes to Rija. I have great respect for her trainer (even if she rides with a fairly strong contact). But I have met many others who have a broader view and are more ready to *genuinely* try alternative training methods, such as clicker training, NH/IH, equine massage therapy, Bach flower remedies, etc.

Rija's personality certainly gives no clue as to why she would take off when ridden, she is such a gem.

[Em 1]

Hi Chapsi

I've followed some of your 'history' and know the difficulties and sadness you have met but I know I have missed some posts so please bear with me....

......She is fabulous to ground handle, and she knows I'm hers, but I don't trust her a bit under saddle. It will take a lot of guts to sit on her (and I'm not fearless).

Could you explain why it takes guts to sit on her? What exactly is it you are frightened of (both in terms of her behaviour and what you think might happen to you)? What does she do? What would your 'perfect' horse do?

:)

[chapsi]

[QUOTE]I believe taht punishing fear is wrong. Not just ethically wrong but simply wrong in terms of being able to improve a situation. If she truly is nervous and runs because she is fearful then what is using a stronger bit going to do? It will just make her feel more trapped and fearful- not less.
I would focus on removing her fears. Removing the reason for her to bolt will make her a safer horse than trying to contain her when she freaks out.

I'm sorry Olav, but I agree with Karin. Besides, on account of ethical principles, I could never do that to her. She used to be ridden by strong, hard men and on a harsher bit before, to the point she became hard mouthed and hard sided too (in fact, her name is perfect; Rija means Hard). She was made to do too much, too soon, I reckon. That's why she is so nervous about schooling. She fears we'll demand the same, she hasn't learned to relax in school. It has taken at least a year for her trainer and my YO to calm her down, and I'm talking about the best professional and sensitive care and training.
Currently she is fine, specially hacking, but she is not for a nervous rider. She is the kind of horse that draws her confidence from her rider, not the other way around.

I'll get to ride her one day, if and when I become confident again.

Taking on board some of your suggestions, if I ever have the chance, I'll ride her in school, close to a bombproof horse. In the meantime, I'll try to take my OH to the yard just to walk closer us both (and hold the lead rope, just in case). He loves Rija in fact.

TWAddict, I've been trying to sell her for a year now, precisely on account of your thought. Such was my decision before. I guess a good home is not available. Nobody seems interested enough. However, I stress, I'll only sell her to a good home.

Olav, I thought you'd also be amazed at the way I look relaxed with her. It was also surprising for me to see those pictures. They're nice, aren't they? And, you talk about Sábia's innocent flirting? Rija's season by comparison is like hardcore! :rolleyes: Another thing, my dream horse is NOT a stallion, simply a kind, gentle horse, capable of looking after me (like the magical stallion was).

Still, the next few weeks will be interesting. New home for her, I'll be all alone with my horse for the first time in my life. In fact, I'm looking forward to it.
This could be a precious opportunity to mature together. :)
My plan of action, just visit her, pamper her, do nothing really. She likes that! :D

[chapsi]

[QUOTE]What exactly is it you are frightened of (both in terms of her behaviour and what you think might happen to you)? What does she do? What would your 'perfect' horse do?

Olav already gave you a pretty good clue. My life's biggest panic is the feeling of being tanked off or bolted. Unfortunately I had all those experiences before.
When it happens, I get a blackout, I cannot cope with the feeling of being out of control, that my life is in risk... :eek: This is an experience that caused me my current lack of confidence and fear.
So far, I've tried all that I could think of, namely Floral remedies, acupuncture, miles and miles of lessons at various yards under several different trainers, psychoterapy, visualising 'centered riding' stimulus mental images when I ride...

Rija starts off just waking, then there is the risk that suddenly she'll speed up her page, I freeze and she breaks into canter, fast, whizzing around the school. When it happened last year, I simply gave her rein and kept saying to myself 'go with the flow' (which I did - my trainer even commented how well collected she was whilst carting me off :eek: ). In those moments, I feel my blood chills, my mouth gets dry, I stop breathing (I know, one musn't!). Well, I fell when she decided to swirve sharply (we went onto opposite directions). Bless her, she seemed very worried. I mounted again, same thing...

In short, I'm plucking the guts to mount her, as I am expecting to go through the same again, and I'm not ready yet!!!
But I'll do it. I will. I know I will.

[happy herman]

oooops
she truely is a beautiful mare. being fairly new i don't know the story as to why you can't ride her. would you explain, please?

[tinalouise]

Hi my names tina I am 34 and have a 14 year old section D welsh cob, he is 15 hh, I am a novice rider and also nervouse it took me a couple of weeks before I could get on my horse max after I got him because he played up a little and once he settled down I was fine on him I rode in the near field a few times with my friends and one day decided to go on a hack after much perswashen from friends we had a brill time untill half way home when max tryed to throw me of I was panicking shacking showting for help of the others but held on to the sadle with one hand and the rains with the other and did not come of I wanted to get of him there and then but my friends wouldent let me so we continued home and once again he did the same and I held on with all my trembling and when we got back I was so shocked it took half hour and two fags to carm me and I was still shacking. I found out what the problem may be and sent for a vet to rasp his teeth but when it came to getting back on him I just fisicly felt sick and shoock from head to foot so my husband got on him and then I was still haprahensive but rode anyway.

Since then my confidence has grown and grown this happend in march and I whent out on the road for the first time two weeks ago and he was golden and I have got such confidence in him now that I have finaly lernt to trote and take him on my own to the near field and trot on my own.

I am no longer afraid to punish incorect behavour with a slap or raised voice and am also stoping him going the way he wants when I want to go the oposit way when before I would get scared and let him go his own way or get of him I have found that he has respect for me and I repay it by having it for him, yes he playes up from time to time but not dangeresly .

sorry its so long winded moral of story is confidence is hard to find but can come with patients and time I still get scared at times or worry at aproching cars,buses peace of paper when riding but do it out of stubernness as max is my dream my childhood wish and I wated 34 years and I will be damed if I dont sucied love tina louise

[larri]

Thought long and hard about how to reply...and all you're going to get is some rambling thoughts :rolleyes: :p

Is it a Luso mare thing? Safi is a born leader and it takes a huge amount of trust from her to be confident that I can be left in charge. When she loses confidence in me is when she's spooky - and hers are of the bullfighting spin on the haunches and off as fast as you can go kind. Doesn't happen often and I can sit them 99% of the time now. As I'm getting more confident in my ability to stick with her it happens less. If she loses that respect for my leadership or loses her confidence in me that's when we get ourselves into trouble as she decides SHE has to make the decisions. Sounds like a simliar situation with Rija - she almosts expects a firm rider to take control, she's not yet relaxed into the "I can chill, because I trust Mom" yet.

I really think that spending more time with Rija will help, she will learn to trust you more because you are there and she'll get used to how YOU are around her.

We all know that horses are amazingly sensitive to our weight and seat aids (especially our hotblooded sensitive Luso girls!!) and you may be giving her all sorts of signals without realising it.
Interesting comment about her being collected when she took off - that makes me wonder..a lot! If A horse takes off, they take off -Safi goes flat out, careering around corners. It does sound to me like the tenseness through your body was squeezing her on, but although she speeded up and went into canter she wasn't THAT rude about it. Unfortunately Rija can't tell you what she is feeling from you other than by reacting - the swerve could have been a subtle change in your body position.
I honestly think that if you spend time working on her on as calmly and relaxed as you can, you'll be progressing before you know it.
Take baby steps - play with her, have fun. Get on walk round for a lap and get off and play again, just really enjoy your time with her and build up as slowly as you are both comfortable with.

D'You know I'd have Rija like a shot, because she sounds a lot less of a hot head than Safi is...only no one in their right minds would take Safira ;)

[chapsi]

Yes Larri, I also have thought before that she is less handful than Safi. She would be perfect for you... ;)

As for my 'aids', she behaves the same in the lunge, and free-lungeeing. The school is a big ghost for her... I'm sure it all boils down to anxiety. It's as if suddenly she wants to do everything she knows at the same time, just to please us and to get out of there, soon as she can. As if she says 'let's just get this over with'.
Julia´s horse (Odhis) is just the same. Julia rode her and she commented that they think alike. You know Odhis, don't you?

[larri]

Only I can't afford two of them either :rolleyes: Anybody want to buy a Luso mare ????? :p

Totally got the picture now re the tenseness in the school, bless her she's trying TOO hard then, what a sweetheart!

Patience and lots and lots and lots of it I think! Make the school a fun place to be - forget work and as I said before baby steps and make it fun for both of you, do little bits of schooling out in hand and then ask your husband to do same in school with you on for continuity. Haven't got time this morning for in depth!!

Ohdis - name sounds very familiar, has he been in the UK (I'm picturing a brown / black stallion for some reason ????)

[chapsi]

He is dapple gelding. I thought you knew Julia LaGarde, she works with Peter (the man of the Andalusian stallions, El Caballo de España in EE).

Yes, she is a sweetheart, unfortunately she was made like this by insensitive people in her past.

[cvb]

re the conversation about bitting and "punishment".

quoting from the Mark Rashid clinic (yup - gonna bore you all to death before long :rolleyes: ). He used a scale of 0 (no pressure) to 10 (way more than you'd want to use) and mostly got the rider to decide the level of pressure they wanted to use, and stick to it (normally less than 2).

But he did also say that if you are never prepared to go beyond the 3 - then the horse will know that they always get a "release" at 3, and will not worry about taking you that far time and time again.

With one of the energetic horses, he just kept asking the same question, calmly, until the right answer came up and THEN you release :D

With the nervey horses he worked on giving them something else to do...giving them a "job". (turning, transitions etc)

All of them improved :D (both rider and horse)

Chapsi - I know its hard. My mare's "quarter horse" turns sound pretty similar to your bull-fighting ones and however confident etc I am, I just can't physically sit them. She also figures she has to take responsibility the whole time, so thats also something we're working on slowly :rolleyes: Rider tension is of course a big factor in this - she figures I'm scared and therefore she should take the lead and get us out of there :rolleyes: And it is REALLY hard to overcome the anticipation and be soft myself.

Over the time you have posted here, you seem to have consistently come up with the right answers for you. I know you are working through it right now, trying to work out what the right answer for you and your mare is this time ;) But I have a trust and belief that you will find it ;) (even if you don't trust yourself yet !) So if you need to bounce stuff of us - thats fine by me !

[KarinUS]

With the nervey horses he worked on giving them something else to do...giving them a "job". (turning, transitions etc)

All of them improved :D (both rider and horse)


I think that's the way to go. I knew there was a reason he was one of my favorites...
The keeping them occupied has definitely worked for us.
I wasn't saying never get stronger in your responses but rather adjust your response considering the personality and motivation of the horse (fear vs. disrespect, etc.)

[Tootsie4U]

Chapsi, if you feel up to it, try contacting "canaan's mom" , a member here. She would be a good person to chit chat with because she's come(ing) through the fears that you share together. It might help hearing what she has to say, what she did, where she's going, and what she contributes her biggest successes to. She's a very lovely person!

[Peace]

With one of the energetic horses, he just kept asking the same question, calmly, until the right answer came up and THEN you release :D

That technique really works with both my boys. :cool: They remind me of the character in the Austin Powers movie who had to be asked three times. ;) The trick, of course, is the "calmly" part - the second I ratchet up the tension, even if it's unintentional and caused by nerves, I've just started a fight.

chapsi - Bram is the same in the school - he'll even rear (not very high, thank goodness :eek: ) and try to mash into the gate. I call him the Lord of the Ring for that very reason. :rolleyes: But out on the trail he's an angel. Is hacking not an option because of the bolting thing? Does Rija bolt while out hacking?

[chapsi]

Peace, she hacks fine, but as far as I'm concerned, she'll be only safe with a confident rider, and I don't fancy being the 'guinea pig'.
I don't hack, full stop. Hacking is the biggest source of anxiety as a rider... :eek:

Brilliant, isn't it?! She doesn't school, and I don't hack. :rolleyes:

Still, I'm very excited about her moving closer home. It's almost like buying a new horse. :)

[Peace]

Still, I'm very excited about her moving closer home. It's almost like buying a new horse. :)

Just spending time with horse whose company you enjoy is so good for the soul, isn't it. :) I bet Rija will love having you around more - she certainly has that "I adore my human" look in her eyes in the pictures.

I know how you feel - Quanah's favorite hobby is jumping, and I personally think horses are quite high enough off the ground when they have all four feet upon it! :o :D

[shandy84]

But Chapsi if you were given time to know her better and trust her better and then were led by someone she trusts on horseback or not would hacking not become an option for you, by all means don't hack alone, I don't often as i find it a little unnerving, but maybe a furture plan to just go out for a little walk.

In regards to the bolting off have you tried just turning her out in the school for a roll and play in the sand, or have you tried the parelli games or clicker training in there with her, if you plan it around what motivates her to bolt off then you could in time make her enjoy being in the school by avoiding that trigger and so teach herbeing in the school can be fun :)

[Shiva]

when I suggested riding with a bombproof companion, I was thinking in the
terms of pleasant easy hacking. I'm sure she would feel a lot happier with
a steady friend beside her, and I'm sure you would too which she would
pick up. She seems such a lovely mare, it does take a lot of patience and
perseverance to induce calmness in a nervous horse, I'm sure you will suceed
in the end.

[chapsi]

Nix will be coming every couple of months and one of our plans is to do some clicker training with her.

Shiva, a lot of water will go under the bridge until I am ready to hack. I'm so nervous hacking these days, that no horse would put up with me for more than two minutes! For the time being I'm school bound.

[cvb]

Chapsi

You may recall my mare can be a bit spooky :eek: Those quarter horse spins get done in the school as well as out and about (we don't "do" out and about right now). Really simple things like a pheasant wanders along and makes a nose, or a cabbage waves in the wind :rolleyes:

So I've done a few things to work on this. From the ground I've used parelli exercises, and the "controlled catastrophe" task to work on facing what scares her, listening to me, claustrophobia etc - and of course trust etc as well.

I also then bunged the western saddle on and did a whole load of "passenger" (ride the rail) work. The spook rate dropped... and the one time she spooked I just had hold of the horn and she didn't run - she stopped in a stride or so.

So that was a big hint for me !

And then finally an instructor friend came by and said - ok, you have to have her working in front of your leg. If you don't she (a) can spook and (b) is more likely to spook

and this works too.

I think I got the order right (by luck, not judgement ;) ) - before the passenger work I had been trying to "micro-manage" her, and that just got her even more worried :o So I stopped that, and then afterwards added back the focus and work part.

I'm not saying we have it sussed but it is WAY better.

For a long time I also would not ride unless I had a person around (to pick me off the floor - pessimist or what !!). The confidence it gave me probably helped as well, and now we're back to being able to ride without a person having to be standing and watching.

I hope some of this is of use to you. I know your aim is not to fix this problem, rather to find her a new home. But in the meantime you may as well have some fun if you can :)

[chapsi]

Cvb,
I realise the key is to do 'passenger' riding with her. That's what worries me, I'm not ready to be simply carted off. :eek:

Still, I'll give it a go and take things in my stride.
I'm looking forward to bringing her closer home, and to spend more time with her.

[cvb]

Chapsi

The key to passenger riding is that it has to be safe

There's no way I could have done this in my english saddle as I simply wouldn't have sat any spooks, and would have ridden knowing that :rolleyes:

If I ahd fallen off, it would have upset her as well as me. She really doesn't like me falling off and deserting her :o She takes it personally that I leave her in her moment of need :rolleyes:

Since that, I have actually sat some mini-spooks in the dressage saddle - but they were reduced in size cos of the work done before.

I don't know what the key is for you. Would a smaller school help, or a different saddle, or... ? But you need that key first...

BTW you look tiny next to her !! Fi may be a chunky QH build, but then so am I ;) Well padded the both of us ! Tho there are still times I wish someone would invent a "full body airbag" for riding :D

[newnovice]

Chapsi, do what's best for you. Your horse will be fine, you won't let her down, but you shouldn't do what you don't want to do. Unfortunately, all the knowledge about what you "should do" when riding her won't help a bit, I'm living proof of that. When I came off my horse a couple months ago, I was shocked at the people who told me, "well, now you know why you need to sit deep in the saddle". What??? I KNEW that all along, knowing and doing are two different things.

People give you advice because they care and they are coming from their own experience, but you have to do what's best for you. Spending time with your horse is a wonderful thing to do for her and the right thing will work out in the end. Whatever happens is what is supposed to happen.

[chapsi]

Yes, size is the only thing in what we don't resemble each other. She is a big girl, tall and elegant and I'm a short, plumpy person. My build doesn't help much to ride a forward going, fast mare. :o

I miss riding Pegasy. Although he was as big, he was chunky, and moved more slowly and heavier. It's like comparing a 4X Wheel car with a Lancia.

My height and Lusitano horses don't quite fit together. My horses, as well as all prospective candidates are all too big for me. The magic stallion was even bigger than her!
I wish there was a recipe for growing taller!!!

[ambatt]

:eek: Not much hope for me then Chapsi - I am far plumpier than you :D it just means I have to work that bit harder at my riding, especially as I have very short and chunky legs. I actually find bigger lighter horses easier to ride than chunkier ones - my background is Arabs, pretty spirited and light.

I will naturally never look as elegant on a horse as someone of 5' 7 and a perfect size 10, but as long as I am able to ride safely and correctly and be balanced enough I guess my horses don't care that bits of me wobble.

Looks like I will have to swap my safe cob for your Rija :eek: :rolleyes: - but you would be bored to death with a horse like Dolly, I'll send you a piccie.

[chapsi]

Ambatt.

My legs are so short an chunky, that I can't find tall riding boots, unless made by measure.

I will naturally never look as elegant on a horse as someone of 5' 7 and a perfect size 10,

Don't talk rubbish. I've seen classical maestros, already with proeminent middle-age spread anatomy looking like Adonis on a stallion.
For instance, one of Luís Valença's daughters used to be extremely over-weight at some point, but still what a good amazon! She used to be as short but much heavier than us. :D
Besides, a stunning stallion always makes you look good - I promise! :cool:
I've also seen beanstalks riding horses and they looked appaling (unless they ride TB's).
Believe or not, my grandfather was 6ft tall, his legs dangled down the sides of his luso horse, what a poor sight that was. On the opposite, my mother is even shorter than me (we inherited grandmother's genes), under 5ft, she looked fabulous riding the same horse.
All boils down much to attitude and posture.

The only difficulty from riding an over-sized luso, is the impulsion. You either need leg to create impulsion (hard work), or in some cases the impulsion may be too powerful for a little body to absorb...

[ambatt]

Ambatt.

My legs are so short an chunky, that I can't find tall riding boots, unless made by measure.
All boils down much to attitude and posture.
The only difficulty from riding an over-sized luso, is the impulsion. You either need leg to create impulsion (hard work), or in some cases the impulsion may be too powerful for a little body to absorb...

That's why I asked about Portugese riding boots I have a really wide calf measurement and made to measure may be the only way.

Impulsion - I know exactly what you mean- it is harder work to get the forward impulsion. The walk-canter transition was a real shock, but I sat it out and loved the canter.

My lovely OH really likes A Gorgeous Lusitano Stallion ;) - but says 'after Christmas' or I get a new job, whichever is sooner. I could gnaw my own leg off with frustration. :mad:

[Alle]

I could gnaw my own leg off with frustration. :mad:

Don't do that...just think how much more difficult getting forward impusion would be! :D Sorry...couldn't resist.

[ambatt]

:p H'mmm could be very tricky

[Canaan's Mom]

Hi Chapsi -

I just sent you a PM - hope it is helpful :)

[nix]

Hi Maria

Sorry I haven't emailed you back in the last day or so, as you know from my thread on EE how things have been :( (btw, I completely doubt that the tooth infection started in Portugal, I think it was lurking ... despite good dental hygene, although all my sugar intake probably didn't help! ;) ).

It's such a shame we didn't get over to do Rija on the Monday and take her in the school :( . I still think, having hacked her out, that she is a genuine but forward going and occasionally nervous horse. I know from what Vic and Jules have told me that she is more worried in the school, like Prieto, probably from past mistreatment.

The idea, that we both had, of walking her in-hand with you on board (me leading) is a really good one, particularly after walk work in the school with me. It will build your confidence in her as a ridden horse and help her realise it's okay to slow down and work things out. With a horse of her nature I would work solely on walk in the school for the time being, there is so much variety that you can do just in walk - including most of the lateral work. She neeeds to learn not to rush and panic if she doesn't understand what is wanted from her, to wait and think about it, but most importantly to stay calm. The clicker training will definitely help with this, it is what made the breakthrough with Prieto. Did you order the book?

I'm already looking at flight prices and K's respite for September, so you'll have to let me know what dates suit you best too :).


hugs
Nix
xx

PS I'm going to look at a 10-box yard to rent on Tuesday (provided I'm well enough) ;) :D ;)

[LindaAd]

Hi, Chapsi ...

I know what you mean about feeling the wrong shape for a horse .. but it does get better as you get used to the horse.

What would happen if you spent a lot of time doing ground-work with her - lungeing and other things - very calmly, and then you could lead her out for walks, so she gets used to walking out with you? As you already have a good relationship with her, that might help.

That would give you time to decide if you really want to part with her or not. She's a beautiful horse.

Linda

[chapsi]

Right. A little update.

I did it. We moved yards. It was a heartbreaking experience for everybody. I had a very professional, wonderful yard, I trusted everybody as far as Rija's care was concerned. For a long time my YO and my trainer were my friends... it was so sad... :( after 2 years. Can anyone imagine what we all endured together on account of Pegs? I am forever grateful to everybody. Bless them.

However, the fact I wasn't involved with Rija as with Pegs, that I cannot ride her, combined with the distance and the current costs of petrol (55km each way journey, 1 hour's drive) prevented me from going there. I decided that in order to carry on suporting her as an expensive garden ornament, I would have to reduce costs. So we moved.
Also, in my idea, I am finally inclined not to sell her. She is a sweet, kind mare, it's not her fault that her owner is such a wimp and a pratt! So, no more horse hunting for awhile. I am trying to get on with Rija, to turn the cards in our favour, to develop a trusting partnership. If I get to ride her, I am not selling. Rija is to stay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who knows, maybe we'll even venture together to go to Golegã, to be in the middle of all those stallions (horses and sex craving men... :D )

But it's not going to be easy. And I'm feeling guilty. I think I'm causing my babe stress and emotional pain. Rija moved yesterday to the new yard. I'm regretting my action already. I fear I took her away from her home. She took a long time to settle at the old yard, now that she was much more confident, asserted herself as lead mare with younger horses and became a happy hacker. My selfishness took away from her home and her friends... what have I done??? :(

She moved yesterday.
Today I spent the afternoon with her. She was very, very pleased to see me, her ears pricked, soon as I parked the car and she greeted me by the gate. I started by inspecting her paddock and pulling out what looked like ragwort...she followed me around. She was keen to leave the paddock, but soon as I took her out for a groom she was a bundle of nerves. She was dancing all over the place, very anxious. I even had to speak sharply to her when I ointed her hooves, otherwise she would steapped on me... She only settled soon as I put her back in her paddock. Then I spent the rest of the time cleaning her tack in with her. She was very inquisitive, and had a good look at me, all my actions and she was specially intrigued by my tack cleaning kit (she tipped over the content). When I drove away, she came to the gate, looking hopeless...

I am feeling such a heartless owner... will she settle? will she like it there? will we make it? will she relax? what shall I do with her, gradually????? I know you all answered me, and gave me excellent tips, but I am concerned to be doing things without enough consistency or too soon...

[ambatt]

She will settle Chapsi - must feel like her first day at school! She may take a week or two to feel at home, but she will be OK. Has she got other horses she can bond and relax with?

It must be better for both of you if you can spend more time with her and just enjoy her being with you again.

So no snow white Spanish horse for either of us then? ;)

But book me a place at the Golega!

[chapsi]

Ambatt,
did you get my emails? they kept being returned...

As for the snow white horse... luso boy... magical stallion... so many...

But first, I ought to try to make the most for Rija.

[ambatt]

Got email today and have mailed you back.

If they bounce keep trying - it is an error with the server.

Hug Rija for me.

[OlavS]

Hi, Maria

I'm sure it was heartbraking leaving the yard, for everyone concerned. But in the end I'm sure you will realise that it was the right decision.

Actually, I had a moment of dispair and regret after moving Sábia, but it had nothing to do with her, just me getting stressed out. Luckily I could move her to where she is now, where it's all very relaxed and we enjoy ourselves immensely.

I didn't actually think about her missing her friends or Gina. She had me, and besides, she is such a curious thing that I bet she loved coming to a new place. Perhaps Rija is the same, being her half sister, although she does seem a bit more "homey".

Rija will settle in shortly, I'm sure. She knows and trusts you, and that makes such a difference. Give her some time, and introduce her to her surroundings at her own pace. You'll be fine, both of you! There's no pressure, just enjoy her company and she will enjoy it there, too :)

[chapsi]

Hi Olav,
nice hearing from you.
Sábia has always been more calm and interested in life in general than Rija. It derives from confidence, and your mare is very confident in herself.

Yesterday I kept thinking about you taking Sábia around the indoor school her first time. Mine was just so nervous to leave her paddock, she shook like a leaf, pityful it was. I kept thinking, 'I'll never be able to ride her'...
We'll see. Hope she forgives me for depriving her of her friends and former home. :(

I'll visit her tomorrow again, after work.

[cvb]

Chapsi

I moved Fi - once within Sweden and once to Scotland. She spent 9 months at each Swedish yard. Her first yard was very natural - the horses were in a herd, in big fields, and I thought it would be a wrench for her to settle in the new yard, with small paddocks and pairs of horses. But strangely she seemed more settled in the new yard :rolleyes: (didn't fidget on cross-ties for example) tho they all got hyper at coming-in time :rolleyes:

Anyway, at the second yard Fi had gone walk-about through electric fences a few times, so my mother was expecting this hyper walk-about horse to appear. Fi arrived and thought she was in heaven cos there was GRASS !! She's not so impressed with the horizontal rain we get :p Our only problem was that she was kept apart (over a fence) from the boys for a while and was desparate to be with them. Anyway, 2 years on and she finally has scritching duties with both :D But she actually settled in very quickly - say 80% settled within a month or so.

I'm sure your mare will settle - she just needs to know that the move doesn't not mean losing you as well !

[chapsi]

CVB,
have you got some step by step ideas of what to do with her? :confused:
I wish to draw some kind of flexible plan, of things to do together, that will stop her from feeling bored, stimulating and that in the end will lead to us riding together.
I guess a tailor made training plan.

[OlavS]

Well, Maria, when it came to showing Sábia the inside of the riding school for the first time I first tried leading with the reins. She got very anxious.

But I had the lunge rein with me and hooked it up through the bit rings and tried again. She was so much more relaxed, she was given much more freedom (and she couldn't feel any tension I might have had, at least not through the reins). She got about 6 feet of rope, and I let her curiosity force her to sniff all the scary things, and praised her when she did :) She would look at something, and I would take one step towards it. Then she kept walking towards it, until she touched it. Lots of praise, then the next item. I made a point not to pull her towards anything, bit nor was she allowed to walk away. I made her do a circle if she tried that, very easily done safely with the lunge rein ;)

[cvb]

<thinks>

ok - so this is about building your horse's confidence in her new home. And also to build your confidence as leader.

I think you have already made a good start with what you said you had done. And it will be difficult to advise you in detail as you will have to watch her and respond to how she is each time.

One big thing I keep hearing from Mark Rashid is that we have to show them the way out when we do something new. Like when you get on - actually get straight back off again so the horse knows you aren't up there forever :eek: He said the same for canter - the horse needs to know they can get out of canter.

So I think it is not a case of "flooding" her with new things, it is about taking her to explore, but letting her back again as well so she knows she can always get back to the comfort zone - and then you just expand the comfort zone.

Are there routines you already have that you can still do ? Like you said about grooming - is there a particular process you always use ? Those routines can help to "anchor" the experience.

I take Fi for walks - e.g. around one of the fields on the farm. We have a bigger field and I just take her around that. There are sheep in a corner and when the grass was long that was VERY VERY scary :eek: but now the grass is short its ok :rolleyes:

But when she starts to worry , I give her a "job" to do (like circle game, or back up, or turn on forehand) so the energy gets directed into something useful and kicks in her "thinking" mode. It seems to work.

I would gradually explore your new surroundings - just leading her. Make sure you have "positive curiosity" about it and aren't jumping at shadows. (If you are, go back to your own comfort zone and groom or cuddle ;) )

If you have an arena, round pen etc, walk her around those. Don't ask her to "work" straight away as she is likely to be distracted - but you can give her "jobs" to do, and then come back to you. e.g. walk over a pole, make a circle, turn on forehand etc. if she settles, you can ask for a little work.

Is that the kind of thing you mean or do you mean the step after that ?

[*toHorse&Away*]

Oh I am so pleased you are keeping her, she is beautiful I I just know that now you can see her more that she will settle and be such a good horse for you.
I know she is not the stallion of your dreams but she obviously loves you.
Yes, it may take her a little time to settle in (and other than taking it steady I will leave it to be more experienced to suggest ways to help this) but she will settle and you must stop feeling bad with yourself because you can see her more now and surely that matters.
Soon she will not be a garden ornament, you will be riding her all the time wondering why it didn't happen sooner! :D
Power of positive thought!- you are a lovely lady who cares so much, you deserve something for you now! :)

[Peace]

I can't remember if anyone has suggested this already, but have you considered clicker training? Here's the web link:
The Clicker Center (http://www.theclickercenter.com/)

I just started this weekend with Brammie - I would do with Quanah but Leslie's absolute bete noir is handfeeding treats - and it's really fun to watch him work out how the game is played. Will touching the target with the tips of my whiskers get a treat? (Nope) Will touching the base of the target work as well as touching the top? (Yes)

I think you'd be able to order from that website if you're interested. I'm pretty sure Wally did, so I'd think they accept overseas orders.

Re the "settling-in" period, if Rija's anything like the new horses who come into our yard it just takes a little while - a few days to a few weeks - for them to make new friends and then they act as though they've always been there. I'm so glad you're keeping Rija!

[Trewsers]

Ah, am sure she'll settle in soon. You sound very caring and loving, she'll be fine with you as her owner. It might take her a while to settle, but its not like they are all strange faces, as long as you visit her :D When we got OH's gelding he had come from a loving long term home and was indeed heartbroken coming to us - we felt soooo sorry for him, but, he's settled - it didn't take as long as we thought - (5 months ). But she will have you visiting her am sure things will soon be fine. :)

[KarinUS]

I can't remember if anyone has suggested this already, but have you considered clicker training? Here's the web link:
The Clicker Center (http://www.theclickercenter.com/)

I just started this weekend with Brammie - I would do with Quanah but Leslie's absolute bete noir is handfeeding treats - and it's really fun to watch him work out how the game is played. Will touching the target with the tips of my whiskers get a treat? (Nope) Will touching the base of the target work as well as touching the top? (Yes)



We love clicker training. When I work with DJ Missy is already waiting at the door to get her turn. By the way clicker training seems to be especially good for mouthy horses (like Missy and perhaps Quanah?) because they learn that they have to be good to get a treat. Mugging you would definitely not be 'good'.

[chapsi]

Yes, clicker training is within my plans, but I'd rather wait for Nix to come next month; then I can have first hand tuition :D In fact, I already have my clicker, Nix's gift, I think the one own here in the country (exciting!)

Any little imput is welcome. I must draw our own training log.

[LindaAd]

Chapsi, I forgot to say in my last post: if you're working with her on the ground, lunging and things, you can teach her to respond to voice commands, like walk on, trot, halt, whoa ... If you know she'll respond to those it gives you a lot of confidence when you're riding her.

Linda

[chapsi]

Linda,

I'm afraid I've been working on it for over a year now. When she gets in one of those whizzing moods, there is no stopping, it's as if she switches off for a while.

Her switching off mod reminds me of a certain person... :rolleyes:

[LindaAd]

Linda,

I'm afraid I've been working on it for over a year now. When she gets in one of those whizzing moods, there is no stopping, it's as if she switches off for a while.

Her switching off mod reminds me of a certain person... :rolleyes:

Oh dear, Chapsi, I'm sorry .. have I been reading old posts again?? Have you made any progress over the year? How long is it now since you moved her?

Linda

[chapsi]

Linda,
I'm afraid you haven't been reading old posts.
I bought her nearly 18 months ago. We all have worked with her training, including voice control. There hasn't been much progress in this score, once she switches off. She understands the commands, but ignores/goes blank once the running around starts.
When you lunge her, eventually after she settles, she'll pay more attention.

She learned, was programmed from early age that riding means rushing.

It will be interesting what the future will install. I hope it will be worth in the end...

[cvb]

Chapsi

Thats when you need to redirect the energy.. (a la Mark Rashid).

With Fi (ridden) I used poles on the ground to make her focus. Mark used small circles quite a lot - really tight - would you feel comfy with that ?

So on the lunge you would bring her in small around you, and only feed the rein back out when she settles. Ridden you would turn off the big circle onto a small circle, and then just ride large again as/when she settles.

Its all about getting her from right brain back to left brain mode ;)

It may also be worth starting the lunging by only ever doing a few circuits (2 or 3) then stop and halt. Then 2-3 more and so on. When she does 2-3 circuits nice and settled, try for 4, then 5, and so on. i.e. start with what she CAN cope with and build on that ;)

[LindaAd]

Linda,
I'm afraid you haven't been reading old posts.
I bought her nearly 18 months ago. We all have worked with her training, including voice control. There hasn't been much progress in this score, once she switches off. She understands the commands, but ignores/goes blank once the running around starts.
When you lunge her, eventually after she settles, she'll pay more attention.

She learned, was programmed from early age that riding means rushing.

It will be interesting what the future will install. I hope it will be worth in the end...

Chapsi, maybe 18 months isn't that long ... It took a year for me and Barney to get used to each other, and that's an Irish cob gelding, the easiest horse in the world, no hangups except for being a bit spooky and he'd moved after being in his last home (which was only his second) for years ...

I'm sure you'll will get there ... she's such a beautiful horse, and yo love her so much.

Linda

[chapsi]

I think we both deserve a pat on the back tonight! ;)

I went to visit Rija, it's my second visit and her third day at the new yard.
As I pulled the car in the driveway, I could glimpse her nearly having a heart attack with the car's unexpected arrival. I felt really sorry for her, I also know what's being on edge feels like! :( Soon after she realised it was me and came to the paddock's entrace, waiting eagerly for me.

Today I decided to do something different, trying not to cause her any stress. So, instead of grooming her in the shower area, I took my box inside her paddock. She inspected the box with interest. I procedeed to groom her, as usual... this is a big thing, and OlavS is a witness, my grooming kit is vaste, my grooming routines entail at least 7 different sorts of various brushes... and guess what, she was relaxed, didn't walk away from me, didn't run away... I gave my mare a full grooming treatment in her paddock, untied, totally free! Not many of us could brag about this. I was so pleased, so, so, pleased. When I did her feet, she kept thumping the ground, explaining that she didn't like her feet being done, but still, I did it. I only needed to tie her when the fly spray came about. She was 5*

Afterwards I took her for a short exploration tour, just around her paddock. I let her lead rope loose, dangling, and allowed her to pick the pace, to move direction. Rija was apprehensive but keen. She was looking with goggly eyes, smelling every little stone and branch. We went to the sand school, she wanted to go in... 'no, some other time', we carried on, I took her again to the shower area, she walked in and I took her out again. Great. Back to the paddock. 'What a pretty girl'. :)

Just before I left I witnessed how paranoid she was when she sighted in the long distance two strangers walking. She was tense, frozing, tail in the air, snorting very, very loudly. She didn't even care for her carrots.

Still, I think this was overall very positive. I am enjoying very, very much being in a yard totally on my own. It's just me and my mare.

[KarinUS]

That sounds very good! :) Thanks for sharing/ updating. You guys could be very good for each other! ;)

[cvb]

Chapsi, that's brilliant !! :D

There had already been comments about how relaxed you looked in the photos leading Rija - thats what you need to build on, and thats what you just did ;)

Kate F on this board made a comment on another thread how she had been working with a horse but felt she had not really got that breakthrough... to get it she took the headcollar off and did all the work completely loose so the horse could make a choice whether to stay or not. Thats what finally gave her the breakthrough she needed ... (the horse had been compliant before, doing every that was asked, but she felt it was doing it because of the constraint of the headcollar - I think thats right - no doubt she'll yell if not !)

so what you did was great cos you let her stay in her comfort zone, make the choice of how to behave - and she met you at leats half-way and was a good girl :) Then she trusted you enough to go exploring :D

Mark Rashid talks about a horse having both fear and curiosity - and when they are in "fear" you want to turn it into "curiosity"... I think you've started down that path :p

may you have many other such sessions :D

[nix]

Maria, you have every right to be pleased with yourself and Rija! :D What you're doing is exactly what I'd have recommended and would have done myself. You're working with her in the area of her new environment she feels most comfortable. You're letting her look at all the new things, helping her feel more confident and letting her investigate and work out for herself that she'll come to no harm. Keep up the good work :).

Perhaps next time you go for a walk and she wants to take a look in the school, let her and do the same ... let her investigate and she'll soon feel a lot happier and less nervous of new experiences (like the walkers). Once she's more relaxed you can start asking her to move around you, eg yield her quarters, back up, ask for halt and then walk a short distance towards you when you've moved away.

Have you managed to order the book on clicker training, if not I can send you one over? That is if I can find it under all the boxes of unpacking I still have to do!!! :p

Nix
x

[chapsi]

Ni Nix,

thanks for the imput. I'll bear it in mind.
Yes, I've got the book. Now I need the time to read it and finding to drive to start following it on my own! :o

[chapsi]

Another very positive step forward.

I arrived, she seemed calmer, munching, not getting frightened with the car. Came to the gate, I greeted her and then changed my clothes. When I got back, she was still standing waiting for me. She is obviously fast at picking up routines. That's good. :)

Same procedure as yesterday. Grooming in her paddock, no headcollar. All wonderful. With feet there was no thumping this time. She stood still, but very relaxed- she munched, helped to chase the flies swishing her tail and mane, looked at the other horses and occasionally at me. She also came along whenever I picked a different brush off her grooming box... Ah, ah, but soon as I got the sprays out, she changed her mind, so she walked around... yet, I stopped her, put the headcollar on her and finished off my job. Spraying her in freedom will be my clicker training first goal.

The estate's caretaker came to feed the horses. We stood talking and after she finished her meal she joined us. I could stroke her, pick off her scabs (fly bites in her face), scratch her itchy bits and she was enjoying it. She even nibbled my arm very gently (only lips). I must say, I tried to contain my nervousness, but I felt uneasy with her affection (bad memories of Pegs' mouth :eek: ). Conclusion, I still don't trust her all the way, although I'm working on it!

In the end we went for another exploration trip. This time she was ever so keen. We did a much longer circuit. Whenever I felt she was getting nervous, we walked back. But she was eager to carry on, so we walked around, walked in circles, explored slowly every crook and crany. Gradually I built on her covered ground, even walked around the stables through narrow paths, I showed her my dark changing room, in and out the shower area a few times, around the sandschool, walked to the main gate... 'ah, the outside world, but please let's go back', so she asked. 'ok, darling, back the way we came''. :)
All the time I let her pick directions, and pace too. I didn't mind if she was walking ahead or in circles. If I stopped, or walked slowly, she listened. I noticed that when more nervous, her body got stiff, but instead of tanking off she simply walked faster.

I would like to share that I'm living a wonderful experience at the moment. There are no words to describe the joy, yet sense of tranquility and accomplishment of being on my own with my mare, both discovering each other and the challenges that the world poses to us.

I loved Pegaso passionately. He was the horse of my dreams. His loss was devastating. I realise I'll never love Rija the same way, but with her, I have the chance of building a more healthy and stable partnership.

[KarinUS]

:) :) :)

[LindaAd]

Another very positive step forward.

<snip> with her, I have the chance of building a more healthy and stable partnership.

That's fantastic, Chapsi. Your story is really inspiring.

Linda

[cvb]

I must say, I tried to contain my nervousness, but I felt uneasy with her affection (bad memories of Pegs' mouth ). Conclusion, I still don't trust her all the way, although I'm working on it!

Ah but Chapsi, its not HER you don't trust, its horse in general, because of past experience.

Same with my OH. He was with his ex for only 2 years, and we've been together for 11 years. But his memory of her treatment is still foremost (protective instinct) so he still reverts to thinking I'm going to behave like her - despite subsequent positive experience to counter-act this. (After 11 years together and at least 5 of that with him in full PTSD mode, you'd think he'd realise I am not going to just throw him out on a "whim"... :rolleyes: )

It will take time to trust, but even your awareness and willingness to take the risk will make a BIG big difference :D

Sounds like the beginning of a really good friendship :D

[chapsi]

its not HER you don't trust, its horse in general, because of past experience.

Absolutely stop on!!! I'm very worried with horses mouths too close to my body... with her or with horses that I know they are sound not so much, but still worrying.

[LindaAd]

Absolutely stop on!!! I'm very worried with horses mouths too close to my body... with her or with horses that I know they are sound not so much, but still worrying.


But every day that you spend time with her you are both changing the past and learning to trust each other. There's no way of saying how long it will take, but you wll get there.

Linda

[Peace]

Chapsi, I think you and Rija are made for each other. :) Good for both of y'all for being so brave!

[*toHorse&Away*]

Chapsi

It could not be any other way - just look at those first photos you posted on this thread. It just seems right and now she is nearer and you have such a wonderful patience and kindness this just so has to be a success story.

Thanks for sharing with us
:) :) :)

[chapsi]

Oh hell. What shall I do?????

Apparently I *may* have a prospective foreign client for Rija (early September). Knowing my luck, now that I don't really want to sell her and I came to terms just to carry riding school horses and playing with my mare, I bet this person will want to buy her.
I know it's my choice, I don't have to sell unless I really want to, but at the end of the day, I may never come around to ride her and she would only have a good life in Britain, better than the one I can provide her with.
With me, she'll never attain her potential (not that she cares, although she loves hacking in company), and she'll always live in second grading yards, in barren paddocks.

What would you do if she was your mare? Follow your emotions or your reason?
I APPRECIATE ADVICE ON THIS ONE!!!

[cvb]

Chapsi

Chill ;)

Its not September yet. This is a "may be" purchaser who may not "click" with Rija

Rija just knows she is a horse. She doesn't have any expectations about being ridden etc. But if this person and Rija really clicked, how would you feel ?

If you really wouldn't want that, then maybe she's no longer for sale ;) If you're not sure, then be open and honest with the person concerned, and let them make the call whether to still come and see her or not.

Be true to yourself :D

[KarinUS]

If you never get around to riding her then you can always sell her later on.
As far as better care for Rija- the only way you can really control her level of care is if you don't sell her.