Alfalfa vs. grass hay (horse won't eat grass hay)

[Scarlett 001]

I've read lots of web sites about hay now. But just wanted to find out opinions of people on here about alfalfa vs. grass hay. Seems opinions vary on this quite a bit, so may not get a concensus by asking this - perhaps just confusion. Nonetheless, here goes...

At our yard, we get a choice of alfalfa or grass hay. We started Skeeter on lots of grass hay, with one flake of alfalfa per day (he also gets Golden Years Senior Feed & beet pulp with his glucosamine once per day). The stables owner and other stable workers noted Skeeter was not eating the grass hay - he was leaving so much of it behind after tossing it about, and he *really* needs to put on weight. He just focuses on eating the alfalfa hay. I know the protein contents are different between hay types, but what else is the difference in terms of nutrition and such?

Since Skeeter needs to gain weight, it was thought it may be best to put him on the alfalfa hay since he will eat it (or at least a larger proportion of alfalfa hay). Are there any particular issues, concerns or things to look out for if we put him on alfalfa hay?

[Peace]

I don't know how Skeeter will handle it, but alfalfa tends to make the horses at my lesson barn pretty hyper. Of course, they're Arabs and tend towards fizziness anyway. :)

[galadriel]

If he won't eat grass hay, there's no point in giving it to him. But he needs forage, so give him something he'll eat :)

Remember that a horse needs to eat about 2-3% of his body weight in hay daily. Alfalfa weighs a LOT more than grass hay, so you don't need to feed as much of it to get his forage requirements.

Do you have any other options at all? Timothy, orchardgrass, or clover are often palatable to horses but not quite so high in protein. Some alfalfa is good, but you can end up with a horse eating more than his body needs, and making him a bit hyper. If you must feed entirely alfalfa, you may want to reduce his grain ration to keep his total intake of calories about the same.

[Scarlett 001]

If he won't eat grass hay, there's no point in giving it to him. But he needs forage, so give him something he'll eat :)

Remember that a horse needs to eat about 2-3% of his body weight in hay daily. Alfalfa weighs a LOT more than grass hay, so you don't need to feed as much of it to get his forage requirements.

Do you have any other options at all? Timothy, orchardgrass, or clover are often palatable to horses but not quite so high in protein. Some alfalfa is good, but you can end up with a horse eating more than his body needs, and making him a bit hyper. If you must feed entirely alfalfa, you may want to reduce his grain ration to keep his total intake of calories about the same.

With the grass hay, we were essentially letting him eat all he wanted (although he was leaving a lot of it). Can't remember off the top of my head if it was timothy or brome. One of the two is common around here.

If he is on alfalfa, would you limit the amount then rather than letting him munch all day (it sounds like maybe we should)? Skeeter still needs to gain weight so I wonder how many flakes would be appropriate (he is 16 1 hh)? He is still ribby, and bit boney and not very filled out in the hind quarters. I'll talk to them at the stables about this some more, but I would appreciate ideas on the number of flakes as ultimately it is my call (he may steal some of his paddock maters in any case, as he is a bit greedy and dominant when it comes to his food). Guess it would help to find out the weight of the alfalfa flakes at this stables. His grain ration is not very high at this point so perhaps we should keep it the same - one daily largeish scoop (large coffee can size) of senior feed (Golden Years), with some beet pulp, oil and his glucosamine.

I have to say he is putting on a slight amount of weight (it's been nearly a month he has been here) and his coat is looking very sleek. Unsure if it is the improved diet making the coat so nice, or the hose down he gets after I ride. Either way I must say that he is looking pretty handsome these days. Much more slick than in his school horse days. Once he gains the weight he needs, he will be a *very* hot looking dude! :cool: I love the thoroughbred physique/body type - it has a certain sleekness to it.

[Tootsie4U]

Alfalfa is the devil! :mad:

That stuff makes my horse explode. That said, Bonfire needs absolutely no grain and can still get fat off just a few flakes of hay to supplement his over grazed paddock. (this was when he was in regular work too!). I have to be very careful that the grain he does get (if he gets it) doesn't have high content of alfalfa or he'll go bonkers then too.

But, thats my horse. There's no way of knowing if it'll give Skeeter a high until you try it. You'll know within two weeks (probably shorter than that) if he can handle it or not.

Did you look into feeding him bread? With a skinny TB at the barn, its the only thing that actually put weight on him and they tried everything prior to it. She'd give him a half loaf with his evening feeding.

[swerve]

I'm not sure, but I believe alfalfa and lucerne are the same thing and we just call it lucerne in NZ. My grazers buy it and ask me to give it to the horses, I give some to Skye too :D , so I split a flake of meadow hay and put the lucerne hay in the middle, like a big hay-ey sandwich :rolleyes:
I pour a slosh of molasses over the meadow hay to 'tasty' it up a little, and sometimes I put on a double-handful of sweetfeed and spread it over it.

[galadriel]

A glossy coat is often a sign of health.

Does he have anything to munch besides hay? If he's got grass, even if it's not good grass, that can keep him busy when he's not eating hay or grain. You're definitely goin to want to get an average weight on those alfalfa flakes; sometimes one alfalfa flake can weigh as much as 4 grass flakes.

Alfalfa has enough imbalances that giving more than the 2-3% of body weight an be too much. So it is a good idea to fed only as much as the horse needs.

[Scarlett 001]

I'll try to get a weight on the alfalfa flakes next time I go in to the stables. They probably know as they seem to be on top of things there.

This is a pic of the grass in Skeeter's paddock. Most paddocks in Calgary are completely grassless, so it is kind of nice to have some ground cover. It is a very large paddock with just 2 horses. The grass is very stubbly with two of them nibbling all day, but even though they don't actually get much grass from grazing, I think they enjoy the act of grazing nonetheless - I like to imagine it is good for them psychologically. :) Perhaps better for their feet than standing on mud or dirt all day? Actually in this photo they had just made the discovery of some long pieces of grass that had grown through the fence and were having a blast eating it. I think that grass must have lasted no more than a few hours...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17/scarlett001/happyfriends1.jpg

[galadriel]

even though they don't actually get much grass from grazing, I think they enjoy the act of grazing nonetheless

That should be true :) And definitely better for their feet, as you said.

Okay, if he's got something to nibble all day, it shouldn't hurt to reduce the total volume of the forage he's fed, as long as the weight stays the same. When you have to worry about horses going for long periods of time between feedings, then it's important to make sure that there's a lot of hay to eat--but if he's got something else to nibble, even if there's no nutritional value coming out of it, then you should be all right.

When grass gets down that low, it's possible that horses will end up grazing it right down to the ground, turning it into mud. If they *will* eat grass hay, that may help preserve the grass.

Conversely, if the grass is good, sometimes they don't need hay at all...I stop giving hay in the spring when the horses stop eating it! In the fall when the grass stops growing, I start offering hay every so often. When they do more than nibble on it, I start giving it regularly. Sometimes they don't eat grass hay because they just don't *need* it, but alfalfa is a nice treat and they'll eat it anyway. Doesn't look like that's the case here, but something to keep in mind, when the grass is growing faster than they can eat it.

[Scarlett 001]

They don't have a scale at the stables, so I can't weigh the alfalfa flakes. I may bring in my own bathroom scale, and weigh me alone and then weight me holding a flake! It won't be exact, but it will give me an idea...

The big warmbloods and one pretty big tb (somewhat bigger in height and bigger built than Skeeter) are on 6-7 alfalfa flakes per day to hold their weight - plus grain supplement. Skeeter's maintenance might be about 6 flakes, but since he is on a weight gain program, he might need 7. I will still try to get a weight on an alfalfa flake sometime soon!

[bonesinmypocket]

too much alfalfa isn't good for a horse- horses don't need a lot of protein, and alfalfa is packed with it. horses are supposed to consume more phosphorous than protein, and the ratio of this is the opposite in alfalfa. If he only gets a little alfalfa he should be hungry enough to eat the grass hay- but maybe he isn't eating it for a reason. is it too dry and dusty, or mouldy and damp? smell it- it should be sweet, soft and pallatable to him, and no little particles should fly up your nose! you may notice that his pee smells very strong- this is because of too much protein. i would suggest feeding him only grass hay until he gets used to it and eats it all, then just add a tiny bit of alfalfa- it will be a treat for him but he should still finish the rest of his hay. maybe try a high-fat high-fibre grain mix or more beat pulp or add a little corn oil to his feed to help put some weight on him. feeding him too much alfalfa can be damaging, so make him learn to eat grass hay! (assuming there's nothing wrong with it, but this does sound little concerning- a horse not eating grass- so have an experienced horseperson check out the hay too!)

[galadriel]

horses are supposed to consume more phosphorous than protein

I think you're a little confused there. The phosphorus ratio that is significant is calcium to phosphorus, not protein. It is true that alfalfa has a ratio skewed toward calcium, but it's possible to balance that out (by feeding wheat bran, for example).

[KarinUS]

Do you only have access to one type of grass hay?

[KarinUS]

Okay... got a minute to elaborate on my views some more:
I only feed alfalfa as a treat. DJ doesn't take it very well (cribs) and Missy doesn't need it (is heavy enough).
Because excess protein also gets flushed out through kidney/urine it is also not that great for a horse with anhidrosis so about half 1/3 of a flake is all they get each per day.
Of course they like it better than the grass hay. Would you rather have oatmeal or ice cream? :D
But hey (or in this case hay!), you got treats and you got food. In our house alfalfa is mostly a treat.
Do we have a small amount of hay wasted? Sure! But overall they eat the grass hay well enough (after the alfalfa is gone) unless we have a variety they don't like or they find other stuff in the pasture. I'd try different kinds of grass hay before I would start switching over to 100% alfalfa.
Here are some other resources:
Should you feed Alfalfa? (http://www.equisearch.com/farm/feed/eqalfalfa432/index.html)
Feeding Older Horses (http://www.equisearch.com/care/eq_consultants/eqrations2472/index.html)
What's in your hay? (http://www.equisearch.com/farm/feed/eqhay634/index.html)

[Scarlett 001]

Do you only have access to one type of grass hay?

Yes, unfortunately so. The grass hay looks fine - not moldy etc. - this place is careful to check for that. In fact, the day I arrived they talked to me about hay quality etc. Maybe their grass hay does not taste as good as it could - but not much I can do about that if it is the case unfortunately. We could mix in some grass hay with the alfalfa, but given what I have seen he may just eat around the grass hay. :rolleyes: You should have seen the amount of grass hay Skeeter was not eating - he would instead nibble on the tiny amounts of grass in the paddock, which are not going to allow him to maintain weight, let alone gain weight.

From what I know, I seem to recall that Skeeter can be a bit picky with his hay overall. Given his personality, I highly doubt he is going to turn into some high-strung horse like can sometimes happen on alfalfa hay. Could a diet of alfalfa hay risk health problems? My gut instinct is that overall he *has* to gain weight - he is a hard keeper and can lose weight easily. This is such a big thing for this boy and is a top priority. I think having weight is so important for him that it may outweigh other risks, depending on what they are - we have cold winters here and I want some weight on this boy before then. He is in a large paddock and while he can nibble on very short grass, it ain't going to give him many calories.

I believe that the protein content of the alfalfa at this place is about 12-14% when they last analyzed it (I can confirm this when I go in to see "the Skeet" tonight) - I asked about this at some point. I know some alfalfa hay can be very high at 18% or more, so it is nowhere near those levels. Isn't 12% protein in the dietary range of what a horse needs anyway? Can someone speak to this as I am unsure of this.

Edit: We cross posted so just read your new post. Karin, given what I wrote about no choice of grass hay, what would you do? This boy needs weight so badly - especially with a Calgary winter approaching! :(

[KarinUS]

There are other more efficient sources of calories than hay. Fat for example. DJ does better on ground flax seed- which is 40% fat. Missy gets Canola oil. DJ can't have oil because he will start cribbing.
Here's a list of nutrition info written by an Equine Nutrition Expert:
Susan Garlinghouse (http://shady-acres.com/susan/alfalfa.shtml/)
You will run into two problems with winter:
a) getting weight on- you can accomplish that with higher fat rations (see above)
b) feeding something that will create heat while being porcessed- fiber

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks for article. Looks great! :)

Right now he is on a once a day supplement of senior feed, which he loves (pretty high fat content I think), beet pulp and canola oil. I give an additional meal of beet pulp/canola oil treat when I visit him - about an extra 4 times a week that would be. You should see his cute face when he waits for his extra treat from Mommy - so sweet.

The trainer who used to know Skeeter at the other place and adores him too (I mentioned her in my recent post about his arthritis) said that she could barely recognize him in the recent pics I sent to her! :) She said the sadness was lifting from his eyes, he looked perkier, healthier etc. Also, people at my current stables have also commented on his glossy coat, some minor weight gain etc. and that he is making progress. I have no doubt that he *is* doing better. So something is going right. He has a long ways to go - he was not quite a broken horse when I bought him, but he was on the verge of becoming one I think. I caught him just in time.

I must say I get very excited at the thought of when I get the arthritis sorted out and his health, stiffness, feet etc. continue to improve. He is a darling creature and he will be even more of a blast once he is feeling even better and he can more fully enjoy our riding! :)

[KarinUS]

Well there you go... you are already on the right track! :)
Personally I know it's tempting to pile it on and have a nice plump horses as fast as possible but it really is safer to have them gain the weight slow and steady. Sounds like he is going to be in good shape when winter comes.
Of course you two are also always welcome to become 'snowbirds' and spend the winter with us! :D You can teach at UT! :p

[Scarlett 001]

Of course you two are also always welcome to become 'snowbirds' and spend the winter with us! :D You can teach at UT! :p

Hee hee - don't tempt me! I *hate* cold winters.

Hey, I do have Sabbattical in about 4 more years! I should see if UT has anyone I can do research with for my year's leave and move myself, the Skeet and the kitties down south for the year!

[galadriel]

Hee hee - don't tempt me! I *hate* cold winters.

There's always UF, too :D I bet Kat would like Skeet.

---

In your case I'd just feed the alfalfa and not worry about it :) He does need forage, he's underweight so it won't make him fat, and the protein content in yours is reasonable.

If the hay has been analyzed, then the calcium percentage may also have been taken. You can see if they're already doing anything to balance the calcium:phosphorus ratio, or if you ought to be adding something on occasion.

[Scarlett 001]

There's always UF, too :D I bet Kat would like Skeet.

In your case I'd just feed the alfalfa and not worry about it :) He does need forage, he's underweight so it won't make him fat, and the protein content in yours is reasonable.

If the hay has been analyzed, then the calcium percentage may also have been taken. You can see if they're already doing anything to balance the calcium:phosphorus ratio, or if you ought to be adding something on occasion.

Ooo too bad Skeet is gelded - think of the sweet disposition his babies would have. We could have instigated a little romance between Kat and Skeet! :)

Did you notice your ":" and "p" in the term calcium/phosphorus ratio turned into a smiley?! Funny!

I'll confirm the protein content and ratios, but I agree with you that I will likely just stick with the alfalfa for now. I just feel that weight gain and eventual muscle gain are so important for him at this point.

[galadriel]

Did you notice your ":" and "p" in the term calcium/phosphorus ratio turned into a smiley?! Funny!

Oopsy :) I think maybe in the future I'd better use a slash.

[Scarlett 001]

Yep, at a first glance I was wondering what you were finding so amusing about calcium:phosphorus ratios!!! (there, I just typed it in the wrong way too!)

[Just.Jump]

You could try getting hay cubes instead. They don't blow away like hay does so that at least if he doesn't eat it, you can salvage whats left behind. Some horses just don't like the 'texture' of different kinds of forage, and since cubes are very condensed, you really don't need to feed alot in volume to get the same amount as you would in feeding a few flakes of hay.

[Scarlett 001]

Actually, since we are switching off the grass hay, I asked more questions about the "alfalfa" hay. Turns out it is an alfalfa/grass mix which is great. They are just getting new hay in, and it is being analyzed presently - so can find out protein content in due course.

[Tootsie4U]

I second the hay cubes.

Blue Seal Hay Stretcher.

Its the only thing I can give Bonfire. Its fiber for their forage needs but it doesn't have alot of calories. He gets it in the winter to keep the bulk on but it doesnt make him fizzy. I bet it'd be a good 'filler' for Skeeter.

Im envious of your barn! They do hay analysis! :eek:

[Scarlett 001]

Thanks for tips re hay cubes etc.

Im envious of your barn! They do hay analysis! :eek:

Yes, when I went to go check out this place, I casually asked the protein content of their hay. I was quite impressed when the worker I asked knew the answer right away. That was an extra tickmark in the list of reasons to go to this particular barn. I reckoned if they saw to things like this, then this was a good sign of their attention to health care.