Topline evaluation? (long, lots of pictures)

[Silver1]

If anyone has read this months Horse & Rider, you may have seen the article about horse toplines. Some horses have a naturally high set head, some have a naturally low set head, and some carry theirs because either they're "Lookie" or from poor training that shaped their head like that. I was wondering if I could get an evaluation on Mear's topline. ;)

This was Mear's original topline when I got her, before I'd done any work with her at all. In fact, this was the first time she'd been let out, all on her own, in a *big* space, with no one controling her. (She was all lost and alone for five minutes till she figured out that she was *FREE*)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/conformationshot.jpg

I really didn't like her topline at the time because I felt it was really off. So I began doing carrot stretches and other things to help her build her topline properly, and I did exercises to help build her hind legs and push herself from behind. The trainers I had evaluate her said that she was probably never used at a trot at all, and went straight from walk to canter, all the time.

The next picture is Mear after about six months of work (Standing on a hill and with long feet during the great no-one-has-enough-time-to-shoe run around)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/lunge6.jpg

This is the most recent picture I have after a lot of work with her, but I'm afraid its at an odd angle so it doesn't show her off very well:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/woah.jpg

So anyway, now on to my question. Is all the work I've been doing with her trying to build her topline doing any good? I have them all standing first so you can see it with out her changing it, when she trots, her conformation completely transforms. She has a huge trot, and I can see why no one would want to use her trot because if you aren't ready for it, it'll take you right off.

It seems she has absolutely no idea how to use herself at a trot, and I am not at the moment a good enough rider to help her in it, since I can barely help myself. So I've been doing my best to help her from the ground, giving people with better riding skills then I an opportunity to ride her, and focusing on what we want to do, driving. (Of course, everyone else here thinks its a sissy sport :( but give us a few months and we can dangle a string of blue ribbons for an answer instead of useless words. ;) )

Anyway back on topic, as long as I keep her engaged and listening, she has the most amazing, fabulous, incredible trot anyone has ever drooled over. The problem is keeping her entertained, you can't just ask her to trot and she slides into it, you gotta put obstacles for her to go over, or ask her for verying degrees of trot, or do a million turns, or something so she's always listening. I'm running out of ideas though.

Here is her going over trot poles:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/trotpoles.jpg

And her trotting on a lunge. (She likes her cavesson)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/trot.jpg

When you aren't actively using her mind, then she completely changes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/trottingcircle.jpg

And she gets bored really easily, if you haven't asked for something new by the time she's completed a circuit around you, she's already off in la-la land. If you're asking her stuff she can do in her sleep (change of gaits, change of directions) she can maintain la-la land and still do what you ask. Even if its at an unexpected time, she's still watching for it while doing her own thing.

How on earth do I keep her entertained while she's working? Has her topline improved at all in the past 3 years? Is it always this painstakingly slow to build muscle up there? And last but not least, what do you think of her topline conformation wise?

[FreedomStar]

Well, I can see a big difference. She's got a nice topline in those pictures that you've got, especially the trot poles. Not many horses stretch like that on their own over poles, but she's looking good. In the second picture, you can clearly see a better topline. She's got more muscle, and has filled out in some places to seem more 'put together'. In the last few pictures, as I mentioned before, she's looking really good! And I definitely say yes, there is a big improvement in 3 years.
About keeping her entertained while working... Why don't you go back to a little bit of jumping? You said that she enjoyed that, and it'd be a good way to keep her entertained wihle working. Start with ground poles. Have her trot over them. Then raise them so that they're several inches off the ground. Just have her trot over those, and drive her forward, but let her figure out how to do them. You might want to ask someone to help you do this so that you don't have to keep stopping with Mear to set up the poles. When she's going over those comfortably and having fun, you can move the last one out a bit and make it a little bigger than the cavaletti. But not until she's doing the cavaletti nicely. Try to encourage her to keep the low topline, she'll be able to bascule more easily.

Another good pole exercise (it's one of my favorite...) is cantering groundpoles on a circle. Now I know, you're thinking, that's the same thing as mentioned above. It's not. Start out with one ground pole and lunge her over those. Then add another one except it's perpendicular to the first one. And then add a third, then a fourth. So what you have are canter poles placed in a circle, and she will have to learn to balance her stride and adjust so that she can canter them all on the circle all in stride.

hmm, just re-read that...the last ex. might be a bit confusing. How about this:


.....|.....
_........._

.....|.....


That is what the poles should look like, with you in the middle (the lines, not the dots, are where the poles should be). See if she can adjust her stride enough to canter nicely over those. Since she has no problem going around on a circle, she shouldn't have a problem with these.

[Mama Bear]

thats brilliant, I've been thinking about doing more pole work with her when I saw some grid patterns in one of the books I bought. I'll try the canter and trot poles and see how it works :D

[Silver1]

thats brilliant, I've been thinking about doing more pole work with her when I saw some grid patterns in one of the books I bought. I'll try the canter and trot poles and see how it works :D


Er....just thought I'd mention that was me on my moms account ;)

[Silver1]

Hey freedom! I tried your advice and put two poles down, then lunged her over them at different gaits:

Walk:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/toplinewalk.jpg

Just a quick long reining pic at the walk, I've been reading a book about driving dressage and they suggested a means of turning with out the horse falling over her shoulder. We were concentrating SO hard on communicating through the reins she forgot to keep an eye on me (she always tries to walk with her head turned so she can see me.) And I forgot anyone else was there but me and Mear. ;) I've no idea why her bum is so low in the picture, the ground is level there as you can see:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/longreining.jpg

Trot improved towards the end of her work out, but not a moment before ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Silver1/toplinetrot.jpg

She has a lovely canter, but I've got to go, so I'll post canter pics later. Thanks for your ideas! :D

[Anja & clyde]

To be honest I dont see much change if any :o . When you are riding, do lots of up / down trans to strengthen your horse up more , like walk to trot trot 4 strides, walk 4 strides , trot 4 strides, walk 4 strides , that willl get her attention plus build up strength in her back . Also sit going into the trot and coming down to walk . Lunge or long rein with side reins loose at first and do up hole every couple of days until she has a small flex in her neck / by the jowl area not flexed in the middle of her neck . Then make her nice and forward at the trot do this only once she warmed up already . and by the way if she is dropping the quarters lower she is improving :) horses take 60 % of their weight on the front feet to be bal for dressage we want the weight at the back. I hope that helps

[horsecrazychick]

Very pretty horse! :D

[Silver1]

Anja - I don't ride anymore, I drive. So unfortunately I can't follow your advice there. :(

I have actually been doing frequent changes of pace while lungeing, and you're right they do help. That was where I was at the first post, Freedomstar suggested doing pole work, and my second set of pictures were taken during the use of poles. I do think it helped a lot. :D

As for the sidereins, I want Mear to flex her neck naturally, using the correct muscles along her topline. It may take months, or even years for it to happen, but I'll wait for it. If I cranked her head in using side reins, yes it would work, and yes her neck would be arched and it would look right, but her head set would be just that, a head set. I want her head to come naturally from what the rest of her body is doing.

[galadriel]

It looks to me like her back has lifted and her hindquarters have rounded, both of which are effects of stronger muscle across the back and hindquarters.

It would be an easier comparison if you had an "after" picture of her in the same stance as the "before" picture--standing still.

Silver, side reins really aren't an artificial bend, not if you use them well. They're not meant to crank ahorse's nose in, but rather to give her a way to seek contact. So they're not meant to be tight or heavy, they're not meant to force a bend. They're instead meant to allow her to seek a contact if she wants it, but to set contact aside if she is fatigued or needs a break.

However, I think you tend to use 2 reins and contact when you lunge anyway, don't you? If you are very good at that, you may already be providing her a consistent contact enough that side reins would be superfluous.

[FreedomStar]

lol, for a sec I was a bit confused as I haven't 'seen' your mom around anywhere very often lately. :D tell her hi for me!
Keep up with the trot pole exercises. There are tons of things you can still do with her for fun! Next time try raising the poles just a little, so that she has to step higher to get over them. She'll have fun trying that out. As for the side reins, i'm not much of anything on those as I've never used them before, but wouldn't they be similar to riding?? Just without the person...you don't necessarily have to stand directly behind her, though, if you stand in the middle and drape the outside rein over her back, then you can still control her like that, and she can work in a circle around you. That's what my instructor used to do with one of her horses when she worked him in side reins.
ETA: It's good that her trot improved towards the end! That shows that she is improving. Whatever you asked her to do to achieve that is what you want to keep doing.

[Silver1]

Thanks for clarifying Galadriel, I've been reading so many conflicting articles and posts lately I'm not quite sure which is right, I do lunge with contact quite a lot, but I'm not sure I could adjust sidereins properly so that they'd be used properly instead of messing her up. I've been using sliding sidereins, which has so far been giving her contact with out restricting her movement.

[kyanya]

Can't help much with the topline topic because I don't know much about that myself.

With the topic of Mear having inconsistencies in her trot quality relative to her level of mental stimulation, I think the answer might be to give her new challenges. She's obviously very bright and eager to learn and perhaps a little lazy too, so she's slacking off and not keeping her trot at a good quality. She knows she can do what you ask of her with a minimal amount of effort (because she is intelligent) and therefore there's a lack of motivation to put in any additional effort. It's like if you were at school and you could either pass or fail an exam - it sounds like Mear would be happy to pass with the minimal amount of marks required to pass and not fail, rather than working to the best of her ability and getting 100% on the test :D She knows what she needs to and that's all she's doing, even though she could do much better if she had the right motivation.

So if it is a motivation issue, you need to work out what motivates her. Maybe it's learning new things, maybe it's a particular reward, but I'm sure there's something that will stimulate her to produce that jaw-dropping trot that you know she is capable of. If it is doing new things and learning new things, I think it'd be a good idea to go onto new things with her. Even if she's not perfect (or even just not at the level you're aiming for) at the work she's currently in, it might be an idea to move on to new things anyway if it's going to give Mear the motivation to use herself actively in the trot.

[cvb]

Silver1 - I saw that article. What you need to remember is that he was assessing it for a particular purpose (western riding). The reason we have variety of neck sets onto shoulders in the confirmation is that different head/neck/shoulder confirmation suits different purposes.

Your mare is nice and level as per his article. And personally I can see some difference before and after. And look at the reach on that trotting pole shot ! Wow !!

One thing - you say I want Mear to flex her neck naturally, using the correct muscles along her topline. but you don't say if you are actually asking her to soften and flex ? Even tho you're not riding, you can do that long-reining. She needs to know what you want from her ;)