Not a natural horsemanship horse.

[Evol_or_revert]

Has anyone had a horse that doesn't respond to natural horsemanship?

I use to do NH with my old horse he responded correctly.

My horse Nicky just doesn't seem to care. He just looks at you like you silly. You can touch him anywhere with anything and do anything with him. Im not really sure who the leader is between us, as nicky knows much more then I do but our relationship seems to work well he will do what ever I say unless I dont want to do... He seems to be teleknitic(sp) and quite good at it, When my friend rode him she was amazed said she never told him to canter just thought she would in a few more strides.

[Bay Mare]

I think that raises a very good point which some areas of NH seem to ignore ... that every horse is different and won't respond in exactly the same way. It's also the reason that everyone, regardless of experience, doing it worries me a bit. It can cause problems if you don't have the full picture and if you don't look at each horse individually but just blindly do the same thing with 'horse a', 'horse b' and with 'horse c' just because they work on 'horse a'.

Saff, for example, doesn't respond at all to sending away in the field. Well, she does, but she just runs away and stays away. She'd probably (possibly) be different in a join up situation but in an open field it just made her impossible to catch. All it taught her was to run away when someone approached her :mad: I found that quietly walking after her and then getting near to her and just standing and talking to her worked the best. She even came down to me the other day, two days running :D

I am in favour of NH but I do think that you shouldn't do it blindly. The old saying still stands ... "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing".

[Hollymead]

Yep, I've found this too. One dominant mare I knew completely refused to show 'submission' during join-up in the round pen e.g. licking and chewing. I've also met a lot of horses that don't react as expected when sending away in the field - like Bay Mare's Saff. They send away, just never come back!

[Yann]

It depends what you mean by NH - and if the horse doesn't get it (whatever it is) by definition the human is getting something wrong. NH is supposed to be interacting with horses in a way they understand. For example if a horse won't back up when asked, you either need to use enough pressure / force to make it back up, or find a way to make backing desirable to it. People often assume that NH = soft, which isn't necessarily the case. Personally I would always want the last shout in my relationship with a horse, I don't think it's altogether safe otherwise, I wouldn't want the horse to decide it was in charge in a dangerous situation.

Saff, for example, doesn't respond at all to sending away in the field

She did the time I had to catch her and bring her in, I think it's the size of our field that is the problem, it's difficult to keep the pressure on unless you can run a marathon:D I would guess she's just twigged that running to the other end of the field works, so you need to use a different tactic:)

[finski]

Well, I am jealous of you even if your horse doesn't nh with you!! :)
Really, it sounds as if you have a wonderful horse Evol_or_revert!!!!

[Yann]

I agree - It's a good point that many horses are already great to handle without ever having been near a carrot stick or pressure halter:)

[jowyles]

Well if hes that good then you dont really need to do it then!

[virtuallyhorses]

This is an interesting thread in that as Yann says, it shows more about what people think NH is than what horses think of it. :)

then I do but our relationship seems to work well he will do what ever I say unless I dont want to do...

I'm not sure if this is a typo - is it meant to read that 'he will do whatever I say unless he doesn't want to do it' or does it mean that sometimes you ask him to do things that you don't want to do?

If it's the first - then this is the crux of NH, you ask - he does. Not you ask, he has a think about whether he wants to or not and then maybe does. This is exactly what happens in most horse\people relationships. They are lucky. The horse will comply politely with most requests most of the time, many are very responsive. But then every so often, the horse decides NO and now the person has no control. This usually occurs when some form of pressure goes on, a scary thing, a noise, a distruction ie just when you need control suddenly you don't have it.

The 'doesn't do it in the paddock' scenario, as Yann explained is again usually a mistake by the human. Usually what happens is you get a 'join up' or submission in the round pen - and then immediately try the same in an acre paddock - guess what, aint gonna work. Human mistake not NH error. You have assumed that because you could prove your control in a small space that the horse would remember this and always respond - but why? This isn't how it works, you must prove your control repeatedly and work over larger distances incrementally. If your horse runs off to a corner of the paddock and you can't control him - hey guess what the horse made its point - you can't control him. :) Another horse or a better NH proponent would, as Yann points out, have still been able to prove their worth to the horse - only then will the horse still respond at long distances.

BTW Telekenesis is moving objects with the mind - I'd be worried if your horse were doing that :D I suspect that like all horses yours is very good at reading shifts in body weight - when your friend thought about cantering - I bet she leaned forward. Then instead of being asked - your horse decided for himself that this meant canter, it depends on your point of view whether you think this is a good thing or not :)

[Just.Jump]

Some horses, in my opinion, don't respond to the gimicky side of NH. However, if you go into just roundpen work with the horse, they should respond well. But thats only if your doing it right and acting the way a horse would. In my opinion, natural horsemanship should make the human go to a more similar level of communicating to the horse, and I don't see how carrot sticks would appeal to every horse myself!

[Evol_or_revert]

Hey intresting replys. It wasn't a typo. If I dont want to do something but still ask he politely tells me no lol.

Never had a round pen or a small area to try nh in just stuff off the end of the lead rope oh well.

[chev]

I think it depends on how you define NH too. Really, the basis of NH (whatever 'brand' you're talking about) is working with the horse in a way he understands - usually through using the same social and language systems that the horse uses, if you see what I mean. It's the difference between using ropes and using psychology to back a horse. If you use that very basic definition, there are in fact very few horses who genuinely don't respond at all.

There are horses who respond better than others, without a doubt. Rhodri is oen of those who doesn't respond too well - but then he doesn't seem to be that great at communicating or understanding other horses either. He's getting better as he gets older, but certainly last year seemed to have serious difficulty reading other horses' body language - he got kicked in the head a lot as a result :rolleyes: . Similarly, lots of horses will respond really well to one brand and not at all to another, depending on how that brand is suited to them.

Gelfy will join-up very easily. That kind of 'bullying' technique does work with him - it takes him down a peg or two, gives him strong boundaries so he feels safe again, and makes it easy to establish our relationship. I had a cob mare called Cerys who went to pieces if I tried join-up - in one way you could argue that she was resistant to NH. But she wasn't - she was resistant to one technique within the NH umbrella that made her feel threatened.

[tasha]

I have found that a bit with Kally - she does move away from pressure, joins up pretty easily and lets you touch her anywhere, but not in the way the friendly game requires - she doesnt have areas she likes you to touch, just areas that she is ticklish if you are too gentle, or 'personal' areas (like her udders, which she will let you touch but just makes her tuck up until you stop!).

But then, I can never follow anything blindly, and tend to 'dabble' in the various methods out there - bit of join up, bit of NH, bit of traditionalism, bit of EE etc.

PS hollymead - I know what you mean there - I tried join up with my old pony who learnt from the age of 5 that she was stronger than humans and would have ended up killing one of us if I hadnt have given up! Me by being reared on or her by exhaustion!!

[Pink's lady]

I know exactly what you mean. I know two horses, both both in totally opposite ends of the scale.

Kim is an eldery ex-riding school horse. She worked at a riding school for 12yrs but has been in our field(privetely owned) of 10yrs. She's is STILL totally institutionalised. She is ALWAYS polite, gentle, calm and respectful, but also withdrawn. She moves over, back, round etc, lets you touch her anywhere, NOTHING scares her and is basically perfect in everyway (really and truely perfect, except she has no personality :( ).

But she is totally unnatural-horsemanshipable. Send her away and she trots politely round the outside until you let her back in and she follows you round quiet happily. But then she did that before anyway :rolleyes:
There's no 'difficult' areas to try to work on and she moves away at just a glance. All polite and respectful, but totaly brain-dead. There's no POINT on doing natural horsemanship with her. She perfect the way she is and is totally happy with life - all she does these days is get a good groom and go for a gentle potter round the block.

Carys (mad, stressy pony) is totally opposite. She expolodes when put under pressure so most NH isn't any use. When it's all going her way everythings fine. She's usually polite etc and is only ever a pain in the bum when stressed (about 60% of the time :rolleyes: ). And when she's stressed, there's no getting through to her. You just have to give up, inist on the bare basics of manners (no barging, biting, kicking etc) and wait until she calms down enough to communicate.

Unfortuantly the cause of the stress is unavoidable as it involves everyday things - being ridden (no phyical cause we can think of - everythings been checked :rolleyes: ), leaving her field companion, even just to go the the stables. Basically life in general. :rolleyes: She's never naughty though.

Her owner tried parelli to see if it could help. Unfortaunaly it just made Carys stressed and she started to rear and bite. Even at the slightest pressure from the halter. Basically, it's much less stressful all round if life's kept sweet as Carys is mostly a good girl and it's easier to just keep it that way than attemp NH and start a whole new fight.

[virtuallyhorses]

:D Pink's Lady your signature quote made me laugh. I think that's what people say about Imp\me all the time - not just in dressage tests :D :D :D

[Dizzy]

I'm befuddled by the opinions posted, how on earth can there be a horse that isn't suitable for natural horsemanship?

Too well behaved, too explosive, too strong! What horse is suitable for NH.

[Chablis]

I'm confused too... the horses that everyone has described are the ideal types for NH, IMHO.

Can someone please clarify?

[Naturally]

The suggestion that certain horses don't respond to Natural Horsemanship is purely a reflection of the human, not the horse.

It can mean any one of a number of things are wrong, either you are not asking correctly, you have not demonstrated your place as the alpha, you are not giving clear and consistent messages etc etc.

All horses speak to each other "naturally". The term Natural Horsemanship is how that relationship can be extended to include the human.

The question you should ask, say when one horse stands dull, while another flies out at your slightest suggestion, is not "why is this horse different?" but "what can I do to improve my communication with this horse?".

Sorry folks...it's all up to us ;)

[Drummers mum]

I love alot of the NH concepts but I don't go out there to specificaly "do it" anymore because, now Drummer sees the carrot stick, he just switches off! He does alot of the games perfectly but his enthusiasm level is so low that its painful! :rolleyes: (and don't tell me a needed to be more imaginative, I tried!)

I now try to incorporate things into our daily routine just to keep him thinking. We back into his stable and I ask him to go ahead of me through gates, move his bum around when I'm grooming etc!

My YO is completely the opposite, he has followed Parelli religeously with his mare and its brilliant to watch but she is a completely different personality to Drummer! He also isn't competative and is really only a happy hacker (brilliant horseman though, sooo wasted!!) and he said to me Parelli was something to do, a focus other than just riding!

I believe that all horses are different but our ultimate goal is to have a happy sensitive horse and build a friendship/relationship with that horse based on trust and mutual respect. I don't care what name you give it, it could be NH or fibblewibble for all I care!

[Naturally]

Yes I agree Drummers Mum...

At the end of the day, as I said, it's all up to the human, it just depends on what way we all choose to go about it.

Good on you for using you head with your horse. They are all different and it usually pays to think outside of the square.

[cvb]

for me also it depends on what you mean by "NH".

Pinks Lady'd Kim sounds like she's been doing it all her life ;) and its just a question of whether the rider gets it or not !

My non-horsey dad moves our horses between paddocks using a carrot stick, plays friendly game after - now is he "doing" NH ?? In his terms he is just doing what makes sense (he has a lot of stock-handling experience, just not bothered about horses much).

Personally I don't think NH is the "tasks" you do - thats just a way for you to learn the attitude and acquire a "toolbox" of approaches. For me NH is about how I do everything, not what I do. This seems to be coming out more in some of the NH work e.g. ferdi Eilberg doing the Equine Ethology (Parelli) conference this year, the O'Connors doing it previously etc.

[Naturally]

Well I'm a Parelli Student and follow it religiously. But say in the case of your dad, if he is communicating his message and achieving his desired outcome in a way in which the horse understands, but does not involve mechanics, fear and intimidation, then yes, I'd call it natural.

[cvb]

Naturally

Thats my point - "Nh" for me is about what you do everyday, all the time, "with purpose". The "school exercises" (my words) are just how you learn and practice (and focus on) that.

If you/horse already know it (or at least enough for the level of interaction you have - like my dad - he just needs to be able to handle them from the ground), then the "exercises" may not be needed.

BTW - this was an independent "innovation" by my dad. He was moving the horses across if mum or I weren't there. We only found out after a few weeks that he was "using a big stick" :eek: When i went to watch I was flabbergasted, and quickly adopted the same approach :D

The only downside is that my mare sometimes doesn't see why she should be caught as she seems to figure she can do what we want without that :rolleyes: So she offers to move paddocks, go in the arena etc -all at liberty - and then kind of looks at me " you STILL want to catch me ??!!" :rolleyes: :cool:

As someone in the local parelli community would say, the horse is at level 10 at least :rolleyes: she's just waiting for me to catch up !

[Naturally]

lol, what a crack up.

I do get your point BTW. I think that just because an approach to doing something is not from a structured lesson it doesn't mean that it's not natural. It's all about the principles, i.e. understand horse psychology and communicating with the horse within that scope. Your dad I would say, just has the knack, probably with all animals I'd guess. Good on him.

Earlier this year I went to view a horse for sale. The owners were nice types (gentle, caring, considerate) but not what I would call a natural home in terms of training. I took the horse into their round yard and took it's halter off and just stood there. The horse stood with me until such time as I walked away, and it followed me. So I stopped, backed up, asked it to yield it's HQ & FQ then follow me again. A very simple liberty session. The round yard was huge and so I then ran back to where I had left the halter and the horse stuck with me. :D When I looked up the owner was crying. :o She'd never seen such a connection between horse and human, or certainly not her horse and a human. It was a really weird experience for me. I never expected the hrose to do everything I asked, but was delighted when It did.... but in some massive burst of savvy, I just knew what to ask and when, and more importantly when to quit. Now I didnt' get that from birth! But I have always had a love of animals and understanding them, which is why i love what I do with my own horses.

I guess I follow a program because I find it's fun. I've personally never found a horse that doesn't respond to NH methods (or at least PNH) but have found many people who don't respond to it in it's structured form of learning, which is fair enough. That is not a criticism, just an observation. For those that have it instinctively, or have had years and years to sit around observing equine behaviour....I'm jealous. :p