De Gogue

[wildponies]

How do i fit them? Any different way of fitting for riding in one than lunging? Bought one today, haven't really looked at it yet but i recall them having to make a kind of triangle? I might be making that up. cheers in advance :)

[bonesinmypocket]

may i ask why you feel you need to use it? personally i would never use any kind of tack on a horse other than a good bit and saddle. in my opinion martingales and such are devices that are only used when a horse has been improperly trained, and even then, i feel they can do more detriment to the horses training than be of any good use. if i sound harsh i'm sorry, i don't mean to be, just thought i'd throw my opinion out there!

[Just.Jump]

Bones, once again I agree whole heartedly. From pictures and descriptions, this bit of tack makes me cringe and shake my head.. though that's semi-ironic when talking about this tack. Sally sounds like the classic thoroughbred with her rushing, but a gogue is not for that. A gogue does this:

Gogue is a training aid that limits the head and neck movement in a triangle whose size is determined by the adjustment of the Gogue.

It's generally used to prevent a horse from rearing because it forces the horses head down so well.

de gogue (was thinking about a chambon but these look nicer, i want to improve her head carriage and make sure i'm not unintentionally allowing her to build up muscles in the wrong places)

The only piece of equipment I woulkd choose for looks alone would be a halter and rugs. (And I'm a firm believer that a horse should never need a rug)
These are openly advertised as only recommended for experienced riders and trainers. What scares me is that sentence- experienced trainers. Most trainers who are called 'experienced' have been doing it for a number of years.

To fit one, you have to use your best gussing skills, because it's different for every horse. It's basically trying to gauge how much of this contraption they will tolerate. This thing clips onto their bit, laces back over their poll, and then ties it all down to the D ring on the girth. Theres also the extra clips that add on into yourhands that act as a second set of reins. So basically, if they should spook, even after training, and snap their head up, it's going to slam on their mouths and squeeze their polls. All logic says that a pull on the bit going upwards will raise a horses head, does it not? This piece of tack sounds like it's just trickery. If they lift their heads they'll get the cue to lift even more and then get wrestled down again. The section thats acting as a double bridle is just more confusing and heavier poll pressure. I would imagine that if you ride and lunge in this steadily for a week that yes, you will have succesfully gotten yourself a horse that obediently drops it's head down -for fear of pain- until you take it off and they get annoyed.

Any pice of extra tack is a crutch. I don't believe in the use of anything other than saddles and bridles, halters and bareback pads. Anything extra, like this, will not help the horse build any muscle. Just like constantly throwing your horse into tendon boots will be a detriment to their muscle and tendon growth and strengthening. A horse that's always in boots will get weak legs, and a horse that's in a gogue will only be bullied into lowering it's head. If anything, a horse will develope muscles from fighting this contraption, or this device will stop her from building muscle because it lowers her head for her.

Plus, what does this teach you? nothing. What does it teach her? You coming to ride her means her getting her head strapped down for an offence that, as far as I know, she hasn't done. If you know how to get nice head carriage with only a bridle and saddle, do it, no matter how long it takes. If you don't know how to do that with this mare, then cheating around it will only set you back further. It's always best to learn than let a piece of equipment do it for you. I personally fine it alot more impressive when someone has their horse going nicely in just a saddle and bridle than any form of 'pretty' extra tack. I also get disgusted with the use of spurs, but I'm a minimalist with tack. What do you want to achieve with your mare? A nice, flowing, relaxed movement and carriage, or one that's stiff and probably unwilling or frightened? If it's the first, work with her properly, and if it's the second, wait till the end of the day for someone to tell you all about the different ways to fit this strange thing. What do you think would happen when she wants to go for a gallop- you have to use alot of force to pull her down, so lets say she got away with you and you had this silly thing on. Pulling her down sharply with this on could, and would probably injure hor mouth and poll fairly severely. And if you came off and do what most riders do-keep hold of the reins- what do you think she would feel with that yank?

In my opinion, this will ruin your mare and it's not even needed. I say go return it and buy something else.

http://www.tackinthebox.com/tack/schooling/Images/sc_cmgoge_200.jpg

(Sorry for sounding so harsh and mean, but I really, really dislike this tack. Martingales are bad enough, but using a pulley system on your horses face is something that I find VERY wrong. It's my common belief that riders who are going around on horses with all fo this stuff hanging off the horses face and tying it's head down.. well I don;t think their riders to admire or think highly of. Don;t become one of them just because this piece of tack 'looks nicer'. chambons are alot more severe, giving the seme result as this thing does but it doesn't need the added rein pressure. Stupid things like this make me feel really unhappy for the horse in question. Like strapping on a daisy rein to stop a horse from lowering it's head.)


Anyway. i know I'm boredering on writing a short novel, but bare with me here, because I think you have a right to see other peoples cases before you decide if you really want to use this thing. A gogue is meant for riding, and a chambon is for lunging, apparently.
Take a look at this forum topic on a gogue. Somebody's tb reared and almost fell over. http://chronicleforums.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/5986094911/m/701209494
There's probably going to be plenty of people here saying that it's fine if you use a gentle setting and quiet hands etc etc etc, but your mar elikes to pull. This isn't a piece of tack for her in my opinion.

Refer to my quote :o

[wildponies]

Just Jump. With regards to 'looks nicer' i meant.. doesn't look as harsh from what i can tell. i have used it on her already, with instructor. only lunged in it i don't think i'd ever ride in it. I just wanted to help build up her muscles in certain places which i will never be able to acheive when riding her. I doubt even after years of solid schooling i'd encourage her to hold herself the way the de gogue encouraged her to. The de gogue was kept very slack with just enough tightness in it for her to be able to tell it was there, even this slack she was responding to it and her head carriage was improved. I won't be using this frequently have no fear. I don't usually go for gadgets, just thought i'd give it a go. it sounds like we're talking about a different aid, mine doesn't clip on the bit, nor does it have any 'extra reins'.

I openly admit that i do not know how to get a decent outline on this mare. I don't have problems on any of my other horses.

After lunging in this aid i quickly decided it wouldn't be suitable for riding, firstly it interferes with the reins and seems too restrictive. i am all for 'natural' riding if you like, not using any gadgets and if it was possible i'd happily potter around without a saddle or bridle (and this is something i am capable of doing on one of my horses already). I have been trying to avoid putting her in a martingale. I wanted to build up the muscles which would make her naturally hold her head a little lower. I am letting her hold her head high at the moment and like i said in the first post, i don't want her to end up with a lot of muscle under her neck as a result of this. I have never even thought about using an aid before and i have one because it was reccomended to me by my instructor. (Who was luckily around today to come and show me how to fit it! )Although i obviously wouldn't have put it on if no one had been around to show me, just wanted to know how to determine tightness / slackness.

Cheers for replying anyway. I have read every single bit! Didn't realise people would be so against them. If i'd have posted about going into a stronger bit or if i'd posted a picture of me riding my horse in a gag would i have had a similar response from both of you? justn wondering, isn't this more or less the same issue? Would you say that 'improper training' has resulted in these horses having to be ridden in these bits? I'm not sure whether i would agree in all cases, but perhaps in a way i might.. all my horses are ridden in snaffles. one came to me on loan that was in a gag as he was very strong so i took him back to the beginning and now he's in a snaffle.. so.. perhaps.. oh i don;t know.. i'm thinking out loud. I have tried with Sal to improve her head carriage but i feel like im forcing her into an outline that she really finds it uncomfortable to hold. That's why i thought training aid, if i could build up the correct muscles rather than toning the incorrect ones, she'd find it more natural and comfortable to hold her head in the new position. That probably sounds loopy but oh well

[chev]

It's a tough one, really. Working in an outline makes it so much easier on a horse when they're asked to carry a rider - whether that's an English outline in English riding or the more long and low outline of Western horses. Horses that hollow for whatever reason are actually making themselves work harder, and are not doing themselves any favours physically.

Tally does exactly the same thing - years of bombing round showjumping and hunting with her nose in the air and a martingale trying to keep her ears out of the rider's face have resulted in an abnormal neck development. Her crest has almost no muscling - but underneath, she has a huge amount. It would make her life much easier under saddle if she could learn to hold her head differently, and lift her back instead of hollowing.

She won't be ridden again for a while - but I had been wondering how to get started on working the right muscles when there is such an extreme type of poor development.

There's a huge difference between trying to correct that kind of problem and encouraging a youngster to work in an outline. A youngster won't be so automatically resistant, for a start. So how do you undo years of poor riding habits, without any extra help?

[Stella2]

Hi Wildponies. I don't know anything about the de Gogue I'm afraid, but I can recommend the Pessoa Training system. Its a system of ropes and pullies. If the horse leans or tries to go in a high head carriage, it pushes them on from behind - not in a severe way, but in an effective way. Much as a exceptionally good rider would on their best day!

Working with the Pessoa in trot develops the muscles, working in canter develops balance. Because it asks for correct work much more effectively than most riders could, it is very hard work, so its important to warm up well with no contact on the mouth, then just work with contact for 5 minutes on each rein, then a good warm down without contact and build up the time slowly from there. Its also important to be aware that a horse who is unused to feeling a contraption around its back end will need to be carefully introduced to it. My mare thought it was pretty scary to begin with (she remained suspicious for the first 3 sessions!). It has done wonders for her though, worth every penny to me :)

[wildponies]

chev - nice to know i'm not alone! To be honest i think she's been ridden like this for years, her high head carriage is mainly when we're jumping and this is another reason why i'm limiting jumping with her, i don't want her to be doing those muscles under her neck any favours!

Stella: thanks for suggesting that, i have seen it used but wasn't quite sure what it was trying to acheive! Not sure how Sal would react to something behind her bum, only one way to find out :D I think i'll look into that one though, sounds just what i'm after. The de gogue won't encourage her from behind just deals with the head/neck and i suppose could make her less willing to move forward?

[Stella2]

Stella: thanks for suggesting that, i have seen it used but wasn't quite sure what it was trying to acheive! Not sure how Sal would react to something behind her bum, only one way to find out :D I think i'll look into that one though, sounds just what i'm after. The de gogue won't encourage her from behind just deals with the head/neck and i suppose could make her less willing to move forward?

The snag is, given that you have already bought the de Gogue, that its expensive (about £80, plus you need a roller with lots of rings - the best I've seen is the Mark Todd, its sheepskin lined so no need for a pad, has lots of rings, but costs another £27). You can get imitations cheeper off Ebay, but I decided to go for the real thing as since I wasn't experienced with them, I wouldn't have been able to tell if they were properly made and if not, you could do more harm than good.

There was a recent thread in which lots of other members reported good results with the Pessoa too.

Good luck :)

[Just.Jump]

Ahhhh, okay good WildPonies! Sorry I get so uppity, I'm just really strong about being minimalist about what goes on a horse! ^_^; Hope I wasn't too snarly. I would have probably argued against a stronger bit as well, because I firmly believe that a stronger bit will only make the horse fight more. It's like reprimanding someone with a slap on the wrist and then upgrading to slapping them in the face in some cases >.<. My ultimate goal is to ride horses with no tack at all, so that's just my way of going, less is WAY more for me!

I was going to suggest the pessoa system but then totally forgot. I've never seen one in action, but it's obviously perfect for lunging, and if it's pessoa, there's gotta be alot of thought behind it. Keep in mind that some horses just aren't built to hold their heads low. Take a look at how her neck is seat on her shoulders and the angling, make sure your not asking too much of her. If she should be set at a high angle, plus been ridden with a high neck/headset, it will be that much slower to get her going normally. To keep it simple, I would suggest alot of bending and suppling exersizes in walk and trot. Try stretching her neck by making her reach down in between her legs (to a bow) and back to her flanks as well, she could just be stiff.

She sounds somewhat antsy from your other post, so is she always acting a little stiff, ready to go? That definately effects head carriage.

[cvb]

wildponies

I've used a chambon before, for lunging, and on my pony who had an entrenched habit of going up and braced and leaning. It helped me to show him there was a different way to go. One he "found" that place, the chambon stopped coming into action so was playing no part and came off. Nowadays I sometimes use a bungee rein rather than sidereins when I lunge - they have a similar action to a chambon. And in Sweden I saw an instructor use them in lessons to help the rider get the right feel - not quite sure how I felt about that as it wasn't really educating the rider's hands, just putting the horse in a smaller range of head and neck position, but it did seem to work quite well...

I like the chambon because correctly used the horse gives the release to itself.

I thought the De Gogue was a fixed triangle, whereas the picture just.jump posted shows it coming back to the rein and rider's hand. I am extremely wary of something that relies on the rider to give the release. If the rider is skilled enough to give that kind of release, I'd be surprised that they still needed the de gogue :confused:

[bonesinmypocket]

wildponies- you say "I wanted to build up the muscles which would make her naturally hold her head a little lower."- but I don't think a horse needs a whole lot of muscle to lower their head! this sounds like more of a mental issue than a physical one- if your horse could learn to lower his head a reach for the bit, then no devices would be needed. try just riding on a looser rein for a while while still making your horse work by doing circles and serpentines. just keep pushing him forward and play with the bit a little, even lower your hands to get him started. try to encourage and push from behind. once you start working in a correct outline, he will need to be taught to lower his head when you play with the bit. big play, as soon as he drops his head, big relaxe. i just don't understand why you can get a correct frame from other horses but not this one? even a high-headed tb should quite easily learn to lower his head with just a little work. maybe there is an underlying issue? sore back? sore mouth? maybe he just needs a slightly more experienced hand? hmmm... this one kinda makes me think. good luck with him!

[chev]

Depends on physical issues too though. My mare walks with her nose poked out even at liberty - she's never been schooled to work in an outline, so through hollowing and stargazing under saddle actually altered the way her muscle developed to teh extent that it affects her even after 7 years without doing ridden work. That's not a mental issue - it's something she finds physically difficult to do. I imagine it's the same kind of thing with wildponies' Sal, although I could be wrong!

This picture shows to some extent the problem with my mare, but it doesn't completely show the massive overdevelopment under her neck. Her crest is the narrowest part of her neck - the underside by far the biggest. With a problem like that, it's definitely more than a case of simply asking her to lower her head. She really doesn't have the muscle in place to lower it under saddle.

Maybe wildponies' mare is a different thing altogether, but I would just like to point out that it's not always as straightforward as it seems. This mare really doesn't have any back/tack/teeth issues - just poor schooling after she was first broken. I do know how to encourage an outline, and have never needed gadgets to sort it out with any horse - but I think when this one comes back into ridden work, I may well find myself in the same position as wildponies.

[cvb]

wildponies- you say "I wanted to build up the muscles which would make her naturally hold her head a little lower."- but I don't think a horse needs a whole lot of muscle to lower their head!

You've kind of hit it on the head without meaning to. You see the catch 22 with some horses is that because they have been going head up and braced, the muscle in the lower neck bulks up. That then acts as a physical barrier to them flexing, and you have to be really gentle and patient to get the muscle soft and relaxed so they even stand a chance of softening and flexing :eek:

So you are right that they don't need muscle, but the starting point here is that they already have muscle there - that gets in the way !

My first pony had a short stocky neck, and a relatively narrow jaw - and 2 into 1 just didn't fit - there was always going to be a real limit on how easy she would find it to flex. She did her best bless her cotton socks.

also someone posted some interesting info on airways on another thread recently - relating to how bits affected breathing (or not), and it also shows how when horses need to increase their air intake in the wild, they straighten it all out. So what we are asking them to do actually severely limits how they can take air in...

[wildponies]

Thanks for all your replies - i will try to take a picture of Sal's neck during ridden work and particularly jumping to show you the muscle development under her neck.

cvb - thanks you've pointed out my problem to bonesinmypocket more clearly than i did! Because the muscles already there she's finding it hard to lower and i wanted to encourage the muscles that aren't being used and try to lessen the use of the muscles which have built up in the past under her neck. phew.

chev - your pic of your mare is very similar to Sal's neck. When I started at the beginning with Missy i was able to start from scratch and was encouraging her, as a youngster, to build up the right muscles in the right places and she carries herself really well now and seems to find her work a lot easier than she did at the start when we were riding with next to no outline. I just want to make Sal's life a bit easier, i know that if she lowers her head and really works from behind then ridden work will be so much easier for her.

Stella 2 - i already have a nice sheepskin lined roller, that was purchased a while ago on one of my shopping sprees to robinsons. Time to dig it out i think! I also have a friend who is selling her pessoa for around £40, alternatively i will get one off ebay! Thanks :)

bonesinmypocket - firstly, Sal is a mare :) Back - we've had physio out, teeth - we've had dentist out and tack fits like a glove. There is nothing wrong with this mare, i just want to get rid of some muscle development that has built up over a number of years. I want to replace this muscle underneath her neck with a bit on top. She is NOT an easy ride. That's just the way she is. She has quite a hard mouth and is quite fizzy generally. I always have a contact on her unless we're walking as she gets very excited. Of course i do circles and serpentines with her to try and get her to work from behind and into the bit but its still difficult to get her head down, i've never ridden her with a long low head, i think she finds it physically impossible to do, or if not impossible, just uncomfortable.

i just don't understand why you can get a correct frame from other horses but not this one? even a high-headed tb should quite easily learn to lower his head with just a little work. maybe there is an underlying issue? sore back? sore mouth? maybe he just needs a slightly more experienced hand?

No offence intended but have you not ridden a horse which is almost impossible to get into an outline? Having ridden lots of riding school ponies i never have problems spotting a pony that has been ridden by children for so long that any schooling they once had has been thrown out the window and they have been at the hands of poor riders who (without meaning to) have taught them to hold themselves in a particular fashion? How many 6 year olds do you see asking their riding school pony to work from behind to acheieve the perfect outline? Answer: not many. If you think it's so easy to force a horse's (particularly a typical thoroughbred's) head down into a place they find uncomfortable then how would you fancy taking a trip to wales to try it for yourself? This will take more than 'a little work', i have years and years worth of muscle to retrain if you like. I'm willing to put in the effort, that's why i bought the contraption in the first place! I'm after a bit of advice that's all. And as for the 'more experienced hand' well, you're verging on being a bit rude.

[Just.Jump]

It'd be good to get a conformation and a riding shot to look at her neck. With the tons of members on here, someone should be able to suggest if they think it's a conformation problem or purely too much muscle on the underside of her neck. You could try getting a physiotherapist out and see if there's anything you can do massage-wise to loosen those musces before working. Just a thought :)

[cvb]

There are horses who - because of their conformation - will find a classic outline difficult.

For such horses you need to adjust your sights and go for that horse's best possible way of going.

Like my little pony - as well as a short neck she had a loooong back She started as my gymkhana pony, something she excelled in :D But as I wanted to do more, this little mare did SJ, XC AND dressage !!

Ok, we were never going to win any prizes in dressage, or be in any team ... but we could do it, adequately, without pain and distress to either of us.

I suspect she'd have made a good endurance pony as well, as she once jogged the whole of a 10m beach ride with me ;)