Mounting problem - what could possibly have happened?

[Sooty]

When I first got my mare last November she was a real little sh*t to mount - dancing about, stepping backwards etc etc. Once you were on she was fine. I had everything check to ensure it wasn't pain related, and in fact it could ahve been as the saddle that came with her was too narrow. Anyway, one new saddle and many, many sessions of patiently practicing, praising and, I admit some bribery ;) resulted in her standing for me as solid as a rock since about February.

Went to ride on Thursday and she was suddenly back to her old ways. Same Friday, Saturday and yesterday. What on earth could have happened? Have checked her back and there doesn't seem to be any pain there. She's her usual self once I'm on .....

The only thing that I can think of that's happened recently is that she was shod on Wednesday and I couldn't get to the yard, so yo held her for me. She (horse, not yo!) is not the best to be shod and can be fidgity.

Could something have happened to her? Might a smack or a yank to her headcollar be enough to change her behaviour for mounting? I must say I never smack/shout at her and I do know yo and other on the yard think I'm too soft.

I would welcome your thoughts on this - have to start all over again now - talk about one step forward 2 step back :(

[Clare-22]

My guess would have been pain related as it has started suddenly again, have you checked her neck and shoulders for pain as well as her back? Bally can get back / shoulder problems and figeting when mounting is always the first sign something is up. :)

[Tootsie4U]

For young horses and/or horses in training, saddle fitters recommend having the saddle adjusted every six months. You're at about that point.

Tread lightly here because if it is pain associated with tack, her confidence could really be knocked. It hurt, you made it better, now it hurts again...

I also wouldnt write off a bad experience with the farrier / yo either.

Whatever it is, more patience and time are required as well as some slueth work to find out about the saddle. G'luck.

[KCinVA]

I've found that a lot of times a horse will try something like that with someone, and will be allowed to get away with it. So it becomes a habit, more like a vice.

[Sooty]

Thanks for your ideas - Clare-22, that's a good thought re neck and shoulders, think I will get the chiropractor out (again!) just to check.

Toots - yes, she's only just 6 and it is probably about time I had the saddle checked, good thinking. But would it suddenly hurt? I would have expected her to have become progressively more fidgity, rather than angel one day, devil the next.

KCinVA - that's exactly what my yo said, and I really can see the logic in that, but again I'm surprised by the suddenness of the change.

Really grateful for your thoughts on this...

[Stella2]

Assuming that it isn't pain related, you may want to try what worked with Flora. I too had a phase of this in the early days. She stood like a rock when she first came to me - but that was when she was a little mistrustful. Once she had confidence in me, she was asking some questions :rolleyes: I did the patient training thing and it settled again, not perfect standing like a rock, but acceptable. Then a few months ago - spring in the air, she strutting her stuff as a gorgeous mare, she started being cheeky about standing to mount. By this time, I knew her very well and I knew it was mischief. I tried a little patient training, she showed me it was going to be a lengthy job so a gave her a smack on the belly with the back of my hand. Not of the kind that hurts, but of the kind that makes a don't mess with me noise. She returned to standing like a rock!

Sometimes it just really is like the 5 year old girl who won't put her shoes on!!

[Sooty]

You know, Ann, I might just try that - thanks :D

[Stella2]

You know, Ann, I might just try that - thanks :D

Hope it works - come back and let us know :)

[Tootsie4U]

Bullying your horse when you're trying to teach it to mount will only make the mounting experience more unpleasant for the horse. You want the horse to stand still for mounting because its the right thing to do, not because it'll get socked in the belly if it doesn't.

Additionally, you should always verify you do not have a tack problem (more common than not) rather than a training problem. Especially when the horse has been fine for months prior and is suddenly reacting negatively. Horses are very 'stoic' animals and tend to take discomfort until its too much for them to take anymore. They could be fine one day and then the next decide they can't deal anymore. Her behavior could also be a result from a bad experience she had with the farrier / YO that just sent her back to a bad spot - not unlikely. Either way, its your job to show her that the pain / bad experience she's remembering is over and things will be alright.

If you confirm it isnt pain associated, then its a sign that you need to fill the holes in her training. This is your responsibility, not the horses. Steps were skipped in her training and its the fault of her trainer, not her manners. They aren't born knowning they should stand still for someone to climb on their back, you have to show them. Thats what you were doing - and it worked, so continue and get her back to where she was :)

[Stella2]

Bullying your horse when you're trying to teach it to mount will only make the mounting experience more unpleasant for the horse. You want the horse to stand still for mounting because its the right thing to do, not because it'll get socked in the belly if it doesn't.

I believe I said "assuming that it isn't pain related" meaning that should be checked first!!! I also said a smack on the belly not of the kind that hurts, but of the kind that makes a noise. I certainly did not say she got "socked in the belly!!!

Please do not imply that I bully my horse as this would never be the case and frankly, I find the suggestion very offensive

[Tootsie4U]

I did not quote you. Who claimed you did say anything about socking it in the belly? Since alot of people read this message forum, I found it important to clarify that the horse needs to be trained to stand for mounting, not hit or slapped, socked or "smacked on the belly not the kind that hurts" (now I did quote you :D). To take it farther, this is not a vice - its merely a sign that the horse needs more training or re-freshed in its training. Too often the horse is blamed... that is my point.

Call it a matter of opinion. Even though you may investigate pain issues and dismiss that first, I still don't think physical reprimands in the form of spanking your horse is the best approach here. Simply for the reason that if the horse is already distraught at mounting, why make it more distraught?

[Stella2]

I did not quote you. Who claimed you did say anything about socking it in the belly? Since alot of people read this message forum, I found it important to clarify that the horse needs to be trained to stand for mounting, not hit or slapped, socked or "smacked on the belly not the kind that hurts" (now I did quote you :D). To take it farther, this is not a vice - its merely a sign that the horse needs more training or re-freshed in its training. Too often the horse is blamed... that is my point.

Call it a matter of opinion. Even though you may investigate pain issues and dismiss that first, I still don't think physical reprimands in the form of spanking your horse is the best approach here. Simply for the reason that if the horse is already distraught at mounting, why make it more distraught?

She wasn't distraught :eek: She was perfectly happy, but bright and full of mischief. I note that you are still criticising my management of my horse!! You don't know me, my horse or our relationship. I think it better that you confine yourself to addressing Sooty's questions, not on explaining your impression of the error of my ways.

[Tootsie4U]

Just to point out that the "you" in my response has been a third person reference, not first. No need to be offended Stella. Sooty has the distraught mare, and is whom Im trying to offer another point of view. Reprimanding my horse when he is distraught only makes him more distraught. I wanted Sooty to think about that if she's considering "smacked on the belly not the kind that hurts" - as which she claims she is. That sort of treatment on my horse would only be counterproductive in the situation Sooty is faced with.

And to show for that type of treatment, I still have a two inch scar on my upper inner thigh that he placed on me one cold winter day. I was trying to mount, he wanted nothing to do with it, I ignored it, I spanked his bum, and he let out and wailed me - broke through my jeans, flannel pants and had me bleeding for an hour....

[Stella2]

I hear you Tootsie, its easy to find things read differently to how they were written if you know what I mean. My mare means a great deal to me and I may have got the wrong end of the stick as they say on this side of the pond!

I hadn't picked up that Sooty's mare was distraught, if that is the case, then I agree, the 'pay attention' tap would be counterproductive.

[Tootsie4U]

Yes, sorry for that. Never wanted to infer that sort of message. I have to stop using 'you' and start with some posh sounding word like "one's" as in "your' horse replaced with 'ones' horse :D:D

[Stella2]

Yes, sorry for that. Never wanted to infer that sort of message. I have to stop using 'you' and start with some posh sounding word like "one's" as in "your' horse replaced with 'ones' horse :D:D

It will make you sound upper class British :)

[Tootsie4U]

...rather than my Yankee American :p

Ok, heading OT and we daren't go in that direction. We shan't moderators... honest.

[nutkin]

I had this problem with Spike when I first got him. He was a nightmare to put tack and rugs on and would not stand still to mount even threatening to rear. I had his back checked and that was fine and had a new saddle fitted to him as he hadn't come with a saddle anyway. What I managed to work out was that he had either had ill fitting tack or had been on a busy yard where he was constantly rushed. I took things slowly with him always making sure that the saddle was not banged down onto his back and that his rugs were put on slowly and he overcame that to the point that he now stands as good as gold. With regards to the mounting at first I always used a mounting block so as I did not put too much strain on him and then progressed to getting someone to hold him while I got on from the floor. If he moved I always insisted on bringing him back to stand where I had originally intended to get on him and made sure that my right rein was slightly shorter than the left so as he had to circle if he moved.In time he has improved and now stands patiently 99% of the time.

[Unbridled]

My Sugar did this same thing the first few months I had her. Part of it was that she had received ill treatment from the saddle by previous owners and part of it was a saddle that did not comfortably fit her back (the saddle she came with). When we got all that sort out she would still walk off periodically while being mounted--she'd always wait until my foot was in the stirrup then amble away. My instructor teaches NH and he always has me leave a rope halter and 14ft lead on under her tack. His suggestion was if she walked away while being mounted I put her into a circle (fast trot or canter) for a few laps around me, then I bring her to a stop at the mounting block (or same spot where I tried to mount before, if from the ground). The idea is that she sees that spot as the only spot she's allowed to "rest." If she moves from that spot then she must work. Sugar's a slightly lazy horse at the best of times and it only took me circling her once or twice until she began consistently standing to be mounted. She still does the moving when she's in heat, sometimes, but the circle always puts her to rights. :)

Before trying this, though, make sure the horse is not responding to back pain and have the saddle checked to see if it needs restuffed. We did this with Sugar only after having a vet exam and saddle fitting.

[Sooty]

okay guys - put the handbags away now ;)

Must point out that Zara is not distraught at being mounted - she's just moving away. I am arranging for the saddler to come out and check the fit of her saddle - I am far from being an expert but there doesn't seem to be anything obviously wrong there. Best to check, though.

I'm just really puzzled that this has suddenly started happening again. I spent yesterday grooming and generally 'having a cuddle' - everything I would normally do with her except tacking up and riding. Today I rode - took about 2 minutes to get on (not exactly the end of the world you understand, but really did prefer it when she stood still). When we got back I got off, then practiced standing on the mounting steps (moveable ones) and praising when she stood still, moving the steps back into position if she moved then climbing back on them. Progressed to putting some weight into the stirrup, then getting on and straight back off. Exactly how I got her standing still last time, in fact.

One thing I did notice was that she was worse if I said 'stand' than if I said nothing at all. Makes me think that she did perhaps get a bit of a 'telling off' when being shod and not obeying the spoken command. Which is a pain as just about everything else I've taught her so far has been backed up with my voice (which is okay as I'm never going to want to compete :) )

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone :)

[galadriel]

Just want to relate a series of events that was posted here a while back.

Rachel_Event (I think it was)'s horse, out of the blue, started getting really upset when tacked up. He was fine otherwise, and he worked just fine under saddle, but he just had one moment of "Nooooo!"

She later discovered that the tree in her saddle had broken. (Specifically, the gullet in her Wintec had worked loose and one of the points had broken off--two different "broken tree" sensations for the horse.) As far as she could tell without getting it checked out, his back was fine...his saddle was fine...he was performing fine under saddle...so she couldn't imagine what the problem was. She went ahead and had his saddle & back checked, and was horrified to find the broken tree.

It really is worth checking out those sudden protests out of the blue--there are a lot of things the horse could be trying to tell you. Most horses will keep trying for you, even when they're in pain...that brief "I won't want to" may be the only warning you get.

A few things that might come on suddenly, such that a horse is fine one day but doesn't want to be ridden the next:
* Problem with the saddle, such as Rachel's broken tree.

* A slip or other sudden movement in field or turnout that makes the horse's back uncomfortable--it doesn't have to be "out" and it doesn't necessarily have to be "sore"; the horse may just not be up to carrying a weight on it for a day--or it might be severe, in which case the horse would need treatment before he'd be better.

* Pain in the legs or hooves might be developing, not enough to be visibly lame but enough to make the horse uncomfortable with extra weight. Example: Scarlett001 thought maybe her new horse was "testing" her; she couldn't get him to trot. He turned out to have a developing hoof abcess.

There are a million different things that we can do to ourselves that makes up uncomfortable or even miserable, that might happen between one day and the next. Horses can have the same experience--something happens overnight and the horse isn't entirely sound, but isn't visibly unsound. Something may have changed in the horse's environment since it was last examined (ie, broken tree). A very sudden behavior change is *always* worth checking out :)

[Sooty]

Yes, you are so right Galadriel. Saddler coming tomorrow, will also be getting chiropractor out. Think I might give her a few days off too - after all we have years of riding ahead of us so a few days without is not going to do any harm.