snaffle bit help

[heather1982]

Hi, I just switched Dowdy over to a loose ring snaffle (he was in a curb bit but fought it alot so I switched to a snaffle since he does not neck rein). It worked great he was much more responsive, but I did have one problem. He was being stubborn so I had a little bit of a battle of wills with him and the bit kept wanting to slide through his mouth :eek: Gracie is now in a full cheek snaffle but since it was full cheek hers did not do this. Is there a way to stop this sliding? Like some kind of noseband or something. He seemed to like it much better except the sliding issue. Thanks:)

[Just.Jump]

You need a chin strap. Go to the tack store and pick one up. Some look more english with buckles and most are done up by knots. A simple knot you can do if you can't do the one on there (Some are done amazingly and look like tiny balls.) then the rule of thumb is to do the regular old left over right followed by a right over left.

It'll no a better bod than a noseband will, since it's attached directly to the bit. I've always viwed nosebands as decoration and a nasty way to try and keep the horses mouth shut.

[heather1982]

OK thank you:) It was a little confusing to me since its been a while for me (I ride western now but learned how to ride english as a teenager). But me and Dowdy definitely prefer the new snaffle. Is the chin strap for this the same as the ones used with curb bits or is it a different material. I have a curb chin strap already but I'm not sure if this is what your talking about. (Sorry if I sound thick, but I want to make sure I know what to look for!)

[Just.Jump]

Good to know there's another western rider on here! :D

The only material I would go for is leather. I don't like chains, plus they rattle and clank on and on so it's completely annoying after a while (Plus metal moves more, so rubs)

If you have one already, remember to attach it below where the reins are attached, so in between where the bit joines the ring and the reins attach to the ring.

Here's the best picture I could find without doing a google hunt.
http://www.bargainshopper.ca/tacktown/images/durango.jpg

[heather1982]

Thank you JustJump!! A picture is sometimes worth a thousand words haha. I do have the kind with the chain though, mine is synthetic with a bit of chain in the middle, but I will look out for an all leather one. Tack stores here are a bit limited so I may have to order one, but the one I have will make do till I get a better one i'm sure as he was already used to it being on with his old bit. I was amazed at the difference the change in bits made, he was much more responsive then before and not fighting with me. Only a bit stubborn at the end when he decided he'd had enough riding for the day and refused to leave the spot where I normally dismount :p He was quite high spirited at first and we ended up hacking them up the road, so he got to go plenty. It was great fun (I think i have digressed a bit, but I'm about to be off to bed anyway ;)

[Just.Jump]

I like to provide pictures because I know my way of explaining often goes over alot of peoples heads- when re-reading sometimes I'm left wondering what the heck I was talking about! So I try to provide good pictures/diagrams just to reinforce it. I also knwo that often only a picture doesn't work, you need both!

When it comes to horses, less is WAY more! I cringe to think that some horses are worked in those monster bits that almost all bit brand names carry. Just like you waste mor eenergy being mad than you do just getting along, horses work better when there isn't so much going on in their mouths.

I'm so glad your horse is so much happier now though :D I know that alot of people wouldn't have moved to a simpler bit but instead either questioned us on the boards or just gone to the tack store and grabbed the next painful bit on the market.

I'm not sure if anyone on this board goes on their horse with a mikmar bit (if you do and your reading this.. no offence personally), but I myself think that that's just an insane form of abuse.
http://www.mikmar.com//images/product-line/largebits/combo-bit_90.jpg
Scary to know that people are using this type of bit. Also scary to know that disturbinly thin ropes are going over the lower, fleshier part of the horses nose.
(This one specifically is for english pleasure. What weirds me out is that there could be people who work so badly with their horses and need to shove this block of metal in their mouths)
Whats even worse is that there are mikmar jumping bits, and mikmar eventing bits (And bits for every event under the sun) where the horse can catch itself int he mouth or the rider could fall off and not let go of the reins, effectively tearing at the horses mouth. Or say the horse falls and smashes and drags the bit all over the place. Horses probably only go well in crazy bits because their afraid to fight, and considering it goes 'fright, flight, fight', they don't have options left.

Sorry about the tirade, I just really hate to see horses have contraptions out upon them. It's good to know that you've gone to a nice quiet bit rather than something that's only worse, like so many people do!

(Link to insanity: http://www.mikmar.com/)

[chev]

I'm not sure about that. A chin strap alters the action of the bit and can put more pressure on the bars of the mouth and tongue. It won't neccessarily stop the bit sliding either - it could just put more pressure on the mouth and jaw when it does.

I'd recommend bit guards. These are available in neoprene or rubber and work in much the same way as the cheeks do on Grace's snaffle. They fit over the mouthpiece and lie up against the horse's cheeks. They can also help eliminate the possibility of pinching too.

http://www.countrysupply.com/products/sku-WBH16.html

[vjwuk]

Regarding the sliding can you not put the round rubber stop guards on between the bit and mouth?

[Mehitabel]

or a fulmer snaffle - same action as a loosering but has cheeks to stop the bit sliding.

http://www.premiersaddlery.com/SiteImages/FulmerSnaffle.jpg

[cvb]

Chev

the way western curb straps fit is more like the way we use throat lashes - they are loose and only act to keep the bridle stable in emergency !

Heather - the snaffle bit won't have loops/hooks on it to use an english style curb. You need the western style strap which is a different beast entirely ;)

(With a snaffle there's no real leverage effect either, to bring the strap into play).

But because of this, I'm not sure it will give the sideways stability that heather wants.

Heather - bit guards are useful for this - but you also want to check

- the bit sizing
- how you are using the reins. if it is slipping like this when you have a "battle of wills", then check that you are not simply pulling with one rein...

The best way to win a battle is not always to fight force with force ;) half a tonne of horse has a darn sight more muscle and weight than you... you need to fight force with brain :D

[chev]

Ah right! I imagined it was similar to a lip strap from the pic posted. If it's loose though how would it stop the bit sliding?

[cvb]

Ah right! I imagined it was similar to a lip strap from the pic posted. If it's loose though how would it stop the bit sliding?

just.jump may be able to leap in here, but the ones I've seen are always loose enough that they don't "fix" the bit rings (which would affect the action of the bit), so as I said, would NOT really stop the sideways slide...

Like a throat lash isn't tight enough (or shouldn't be) to restrict the flexion at the poll....

[chev]

so as I said, would NOT really stop the sideways slide...

Oops. Missed that bit on first reading :o sorry!

[heather1982]

OK thanks for the insight guys, I looked up bit guards, I think this is what I need. Will I still need the chin strap as well or is that a bad/unnecessary idea? Also, I think the bit size is good, it looks comfortable in his mouth and didn't seem too narrow or too wide. I will also try to exagerrate my leg cues and not use as much rein when he is being stubborn, maybe that will help him cooperate better. If all else fails when he is getting the better of me I suppose I could just dismount to lead him away from the problem area and then get back on somewhere else :p Thanks again for the help, the bit guards should help a lot I think and it says they keep the bit from pinching the lips as well :)

[cazrider]

A bit late to this one, but until I read everyone elses posts I was going to suggest bit rings, or bit guards. Only thing I'd say is you may need the bit to be half an inch wider to take the bit rings, as they do take up space.

The only other thing is they are a nightmare to put on. A two man job I've found, with one person needing to be very strong, i.e. a bloke of reasonable strength. ;) Get two lengths of baler twine. Insert both through the bit ring. Join the ends of each together. Get strong bloke to pull on both of them so that hole in the middle of the bit ring becomes a slit (or hook one over something solid and pull the other one). Slide the bit through the hole/slit. Do the same with the other one. Easy (haha :D ).

[cvb]

OK thanks for the insight guys, I looked up bit guards, I think this is what I need. Will I still need the chin strap as well or is that a bad/unnecessary idea? Also, I think the bit size is good, it looks comfortable in his mouth and didn't seem too narrow or too wide. I will also try to exagerrate my leg cues and not use as much rein when he is being stubborn, maybe that will help him cooperate better. If all else fails when he is getting the better of me I suppose I could just dismount to lead him away from the problem area and then get back on somewhere else :p Thanks again for the help, the bit guards should help a lot I think and it says they keep the bit from pinching the lips as well :)

Heather - this is one case where I wouldn't go for belt AND braces ;) Try bit guard by themselves. Partly cos bit guard and strap would interact, and partly cos I;m not sure you need the strap ;)

re cues - its not that you need more leg, and "less" rein, its that you need to be smart about how you use the rein. If you use a constant "pull", horses are naturally an "into pressure" animal and will just lean back :rolleyes: So you need to make sure you don't give them something to resist. Instead redirect the movement, use a soft rein...

When the bit is sliding, is it because you are asking for a turn and not getting it ? certainly your cue for the turn should be more than just rein. One of the things Mark Rashid had riders doing at a recent clinic was putting their inside hand on top of thigh. (Note this is a remedial action to ask for softness, not a "normal" turn cue !). The reason for this is that there is still a direct rein aid, but the hand can not pull back (its on the thigh) and when the horse gives to the pressure they get an automatic "release" which helps them learn it is the right answer ;)

(This is partly how we teach them a "yield to pressure" rather than "into pressure" response).

Dismounting and walking away is certainly a redirection ;) I know there are people who might say you haven't "won" in that situation. But my personal view is that as long as the horse is still moving its feet where you want, you're on the right track and it'll come with time. However, try the redirection while on top first - use the dismount as your last resort ;)

[Jessey]

I use a curb strap on my snaffle to stop any major sideways movement (on horses who get stuborn or evasive), how it works for me is - the strap is set below the reins so has NO curb action, I choose a strap that is slightly longer (1/2") then the mouth piece of the bit, it hangs loosely most of the time but if your horse snatches his head round it keeps the rings at an angle to the mouthpiece so that they can't slip through the mouth (Hmm not sure how much sense that makes :confused:)

Let me try that bit again, it forms a square round the lower jaw, mouthpiece in mouth, ring either side of the jaw and the strap connecting the rings under the jaw so that no matter what the rings don't/can't move into the flat position (in line with the mouthpiece) and allow the bit to slide through the mouth, the strap just keeps the rings roughly where they are meant to be in extrame situations and otherwise has no effect other that to quieten the bit a little as it becomes a more stable structure (only when a full leather strap is used, chain won't stabalise it but will stop the slip still).

Did that make any sense??? :D

J x

[cvb]

Yes Jessey it does - cos what you are saying is that the bit is mostly going to go through the mouth when the bit rings are out to the side rather than against the face.

The bit rings are going to come out if the rider is using a direct rein to ask for a turn, and the horse resists and takes the outside shoulder out, so the angle if the rein to the mouth becomes wider.

The curb strap would limit this wide angle...

heather, does your guy open his mouth when he does this ?? I think if he opens his mouth really wide, you may still get some slipping with both bit guard and curb strap...

[Jessey]

Thats the ticket, one horse I rode for a while was a sod for it and to be honest nothing really stoped it, he would even get the rubber bit rings in his mouth and nearly gag on the things, I found leather ones better in that respect, the curb strap did help a bit, even better is a full cheek snaffle.

If you have a real job with a horse that won't turn one way in particular they do those bit rings with bristles on them, have never tried them though.

[cvb]

Heather

You can also get half-cheeked snaffles...

[heather1982]

cvb, yes he did open his mouth when this happened. I'll trial some of these ideas, if the chin strap doesn't help, will try bit rings. If its still a problem will invest in a full cheek snaffle like the one Gracie has:) We only ride once a week or so, so no big rush. The help is very appreciated though. I'm just glad he's happier in this bit, and I know he is quite responsive in it because he turned beautifully 90% of the time. He hated the curb bit with a passion, and was apprehensive about the new bit at first until he realized it was a milder bit then he relaxed a lot :p Gracie seems to like her new snaffle a lot as well, hers is a full cheek with copper mouthpiece.

[cvb]

heather

I'm writing up notes from a recent clinic I watched, and it really struck home how much the "open mouth" indicated resistance, rather than the softness we all want.

The clinician (Mark Rashid) commented how one horse was yielding - but with the lower jaw only, so the mouth gaped a little and there was still tension in the poll and neck.

His approach is to always start with softness. But the problem is that softness is a difficult thing to define, understand etc - thats why writing up the notes is taking me some time :rolleyes: Its easier to tell you what it isn't - its not a headset, or yielding one part, etc etc....

I rode at one of his clinics in Feb, and came home and asked my mum's pony for softness. But I didn't really "get it" at the time and while this pony has been giving me some great work since then, I wasn't really asking in a truely sympathetic way - in fact I wasn't really asking, and then allowing him to give - I was asking and then taking :rolleyes:

So the July clinic helped me understand a little more, and we're working on this again/still ;)

So in theory, I could propose you start by asking for softness - and then the bit sliding shouldn't be an issue. In practice this may be beyond me to explain properly :rolleyes: But if you can find a local instructor who teaches like this it may help a lot :D