how do you train over strong natural herd instinct?

[Jessey]

Ok I know that sounds odd but Bo is a pretty solid horse when out hacking, plastic bags and brids flying out of the trees really don't bother him much, even lorry's whizzing by and he just needs to get a good look to check its all ok, but if a tiny pony so much as walks in his direction he doesn't know what to do with him self.

Twice last week (2 different days) we went by fields with ponies in, day 1 he spun round and went to bolt, he wasn't hard to hold back but then knowing he couldn't tank off forwards he started dancing around, down a bank into a ploughed field, now sinking to his hocks I thought he was going to go over on me but luckily he didn't. All he wanted to do was get as far away from that pony as possible.

Day 2 we went past a few ponies in a field, they started trotting around and he wanted to go with them, regardless of the barbed wire fence in the way. when I tried to move him on he started to do little rears and the dancing thing again so I really tried to push him on, the trot got bigger, with lots more energy, but we didn't move forwards much. eventually we got past the field and within 200 yards he had settled nicely again.

He also gets like this at shows when lots of other horses are moving around etc and our yards drive way is long and runs between two of our fields so every trip out is a little nerve racking.

So how do you train a horse not to react so much to these other horses? or don't you, do you just hope that your horse is one who doesn't get anxieous and over excited by these things?

Any thoughts, crazy plans or anything that could help would be appriciated.

Oh, I have used rescue remedy and I've reacently started him on the 'top spec' calmer which didn't seem to help, yet :D

J x :D

[Tootsie4U]

I have been battling over this topic for weeks now.

How do you train *complete, natural instincts* out of a horse? Can you? Should you?

My example was along these lines: Horses are flight animals. Can you ever truly and completely train them under any and all circumstances to not give into that instinct?

I dont know what the answer is.

I posed the question on a web forum of a very well known NH trainer here in the States and most of the replies seemed to think that any horse can be taught to deny his natural instincts. Their advise: desensitization through repetition.

[cvb]

ooo - does this give me another chance to mention leadership ! ;)

If the horse is accepting your leadership, shouldn't they look to you for direction in this situation ? You then need to direct the energy in a way that softens and refocuses them.

Not saying I have this down pat - I'm still overcoming what is obvious a previous life-experience as a limpet :rolleyes:

Quick aside: I remember hearing Jennie Lorriston-Clarke speaking (Tootsie - UK dressage rider ;) ) She was saying their stallions are not allowed to exhibit "stallion behaviour" while under saddle, despite being working studs. So when they hack out these chaps come down the drive, with mares either side, practically holding their breath cos they're not allowed to call til their saddle is off :p And it works.

Anyway - I think what you would need to do is use the "redirection" approach to get their attention back to you. And over time they seem to start to realise that it always comes bakc to you...

[Janette]

That sounds very similar to the problem I'm having when we go to shows. She's absoloutley fine around the trailer, get to the ring and the panic sets in. All our hard work goes out of the window and we are back to tense, rushing, head in the air and in a total tizz.

I think its just repetition - acclimatising to that particular situation, and the horse learnimg that there is no pecking order in that situation. (except the one called by the judge........ :( )

[Tootsie4U]

Anyway - I think what you would need to do is use the "redirection" approach to get their attention back to you. And over time they seem to start to realise that it always comes bakc to you...

Just to note, Im currently trying this tactic with Bonfire. At least I've got it in my memory bank to focus on in his training these days (whereas I didnt before). I've got to become the most important thing, even more important than whatever might be spooking him. Its too early to tell yet.

Would the stallion example be a form of oppressing though, rather than leadership?

[Jessey]

Thats just it Tootsie, can you? should you? I don't know.

Cvb, I really can't wait for you to come down, I hope you'll have a few minutes to look at my monster, I would really value your thoughts.

I see what you mean and he does listen to an extent, bless him he trys but its like he has no control over it. He will always come back to me (the day he tried to bolt I had him in a rope halter) he did move off my leg (the trot did get bigger :D ) but he just couldn't bring his full attention back to me, or even keep it on our lead horse. Its like his instinct (sub-concious) takes over, he trys not to but he has to argue with me and his concious effort to do what he is asked.

I don't collect him before we get to these possible exciting situations as this just makes matters worse, I have tried doing shoulder in and stuff which is fine until he realises but then it can be very explosive, the more/longer I hold on the longer he holds on, the more there is to come out.

Janette - that was just my theory when I started taking Bo out 3 1/2 years ago, he's probably done over 100 days showing/clinics now but it doesn't seem any better, I also try to ride with lots of different horses and take him out for lessons to get him used to it but I must be doing something wrong.

I have never made this behaviour acceptable, I never get off (unless he's really bad but then he gets lunged and i get back on as soon as he's settled enough) and he, touch wood, hasn't thrown me in one of these episodes yet (although he did fall on me once), he's always made to finnish the class/clinic/hack.

J x

[Jessey]

Thinking of re-direction and re-assurance, whilst out last night there was a scary car parked on the raod with one of those silver all over plastic covers on it, Bo walked by, he looked at it but didn't faulter in his step, until I touched his withers to give him a 'well done' scratch, he damn near jumped out of his skin :D :rolleyes:

So whats that all about? I have always used this as a good boy/well done but when he is tense it can be enough to set him off.

I understand that not letting studs 'speak' whilst tacked up could be good for us, but doing just that sort of thing it what make my horse mad, as I said he tries not to do things and you can feel him getting more and more wound up, eventually the spring breaks and he's off.

J x

[Mehitabel]

Would the stallion example be a form of oppressing though, rather than leadership?

for safety's sake though, sometimes stallions need a bit of oppressing! if they are going to be out in public, interact with other horses at all, they have to know their manners. the old boss mare in a herd will tell the stallion when it is acceptable to flirt and when it's not too.
ours are strictly squashed when they start tarting under saddle or when being led. they have separate covering tack, and any flirting or manly behaviour is not tolerated when their riding tack is on. they have to learn, for their own safety, the handler's safety and that of any other horse in the vicinity.

[Tootsie4U]

Oh yes! For four years I worked at a stud farm, I know what you mean.

Im just trying to define things in my head and making it all more complex than it really is. :D :p

cvb has that affect on me!

My thought process: Of course the urge to breed is foremost on their minds. As they ride along side the mare, I bet they're still thinking about breeding, but aren't acting on it because they know they'll catch hell if they do. Their thoughts aren't being redirected are they? I would see it more like their instincts are being oppressed (insert another suitable word if you know one that fits better :D) or restrained rather than they're willingly (out of leadership) forgoing the breeding of the mares. :confused:

[Janette]

Janette - that was just my theory when I started taking Bo out 3 1/2 years ago, he's probably done over 100 days showing/clinics now but ........

Oh dear.................

We've done dressage all winter, and she's better in an indoor school - no other horses around ......, out door schools are like riding an unexploded bomb!!!!

Ho hum - onwards and upwards...

[cvb]

cvb has that affect on me!

I make you think ? Or I make you over-complicate things ?? ;)

You're not going to stop a horse being a horse :D It is about saying - expressing that is acceptable in these situations, but not in these....

co-operation rather than oppression :D

Mark gave a neat analogy - which will be in the notes when they are finally done :rolleyes: - but if you meet force with force, its often much harder to move it. If you meet force with softness, its amazing how easy it is to simply redirect ;)

If I tried to "opress" a stallion, it might work short-term but I bet I'd end up splatted :eek: (sooner or later)....

[Tootsie4U]

But, that cooperation is demanded in this case, not asked for or even learned initially. It'd have to be for safety reasons like Mehitabel said...

"If you meet force with softness, its amazing how easy it is to simply redirect "

Rashid sounds alot like Lyons in that respect. Did you ever see the "In a Whisper" video?

[cvb]

Thinking of re-direction and re-assurance, whilst out last night there was a scary car parked on the raod with one of those silver all over plastic covers on it, Bo walked by, he looked at it but didn't faulter in his step, until I touched his withers to give him a 'well done' scratch, he damn near jumped out of his skin :D :rolleyes:

So whats that all about? I have always used this as a good boy/well done but when he is tense it can be enough to set him off.

I understand that not letting studs 'speak' whilst tacked up could be good for us, but doing just that sort of thing it what make my horse mad, as I said he tries not to do things and you can feel him getting more and more wound up, eventually the spring breaks and he's off.

J x

Sure - but when you first made contact, he didn't know it was the "good boy" thing did he ? And he was focused on something else so wouldn't really have even clicked it was you, and just reacted reflexively...

And yes "collection" doesn't work - this is one I am learning. Try and "constrain" Fi when she's in "oh my god" mode and she just panics and freaks and runs.. but the redirection is slightly different. I'm still working out the difference - but it certainly works in an arena.

Janette - the problem with shows is that often we are not prepared to do the "training" work we need to do in a show environment. Partly cos of the impact it might have on others e.g. if you are in a show class and start turning your horse in small circles til they settle, you will probably be asked to leave the ring ! :eek:

A dressage rider at the Mark R clinic asked about going to competitions before the "correct" way of going is established. (This was in context of Mark saying that by accepting a certain behaviour we are effectively saying it is the "right" answer..). Mark said he would not compete until you got the right behaviour more than 70% of the time. But I think "schooling shows" would be the exception to this. Trouble is schooling shows seem to be few and far between :rolleyes:

Fi seems to get worried cantering in company - if everyone is going in the same direction (Dressage warm up is fine for some reason). So somehow I need to get into more group lessons to help her realise this is not the threat she thinks it is...

[Mehitabel]

we also have to think of the difference between safety 'demands' and the long term training. if you're being carted out of control towards some winking hussy, or backing into a potential rival at speed on a showground, then you have to do what ever it takes.
but of course what you'd do in that situation is different to how you'd go about training at home, over the long term.

That sounds very similar to the problem I'm having when we go to shows. She's absoloutley fine around the trailer, get to the ring and the panic sets in. All our hard work goes out of the window and we are back to tense, rushing, head in the air and in a total tizz.

going back on topic - i have the opposite problem! she's horrible warming up, once i get on and make her work away from her mates, she is a right royal PITA, napping, shrieking, panicking. as soon as we get in the ring she remembers her job and is fine until the end of the class - i normally start getting airs above the ground again on the lap of honour, or waiting to leave the ring...

given it's in the ring - are you sure it's not your nerves transmitting themselves to her?

[cvb]

p.s. unfortunately JLC didn't say HOW they train their stallions this way :(

[cvb]

But, that cooperation is demanded in this case, not asked for or even learned initially. It'd have to be for safety reasons like Mehitabel said...

"If you meet force with softness, its amazing how easy it is to simply redirect "

Rashid sounds alot like Lyons in that respect. Did you ever see the "In a Whisper" video?

No, I had an offer to borrow it but have a pile of books and the new version of Parelli pack 1 sitting there glaring at me :(

I think a lot of Marks thinking these days comes from being black belt aikido :eek:

[Janette]

Oh how I have considered that one :( .......... I do thisnk that is part of the problem, but we get a 'diluted' version when out hacking. A 'strange' horse might be 50 feet infront of us, going in the same direction as us, and the head flies up, she start's evading....... I wonder sometimes if it's a lack of confidence in her own status - does that sound stupid?

[Tootsie4U]

i have the opposite problem! ...as soon as we get in the ring she remembers her job and is fine until the end of the class

Her sh*t don't stink, eh? :D:D Little ham! :p I said it the other day, she knows she has job to do, its very evident in her photos.

cvb, I brought up the video because in it, Pat P gets a very ornry horse and was criticized a bit (off tape) for his seemingly strong training techniques he had to use on that horse. (He chose this horse on purpose btw). On the other hand, Lyon's horse started out a bit bolshy but ended up eons farther in success than the other two. Lyons is a very 'low key' trainer who seems to share alot of Rashid's points of view. My point is; does Rashid claim that softness is always always always the key no matter what devil of a horse comes into the ring? Im not as well versed in Rashid as I am in Parelli or Lyons, so asking for my own curiosity.

[Jessey]

Lack of cofidence in their own status - we have also considered this, Bo can go either of two ways, either he wants to run or he has been known to attack :eek: is this trying to assert ones self? (more so than just over excitement)

OK, so what is the difference between controling and re-direction? how do you re-direct without forcing the issue?

[Mehitabel]

Her sh*t don't stink, eh? :D:D Little ham! :p I said it the other day, she knows she has job to do, its very evident in her photos.


My point is; does Rashid claim that softness is always always always the key no matter what devil of a horse comes into the ring? Im not as well versed in Rashid as I am in Parelli or Lyons, so asking for my own curiosity.

mariah carey has nothing on my diva! :rolleyes:

would also be interested in hearing about the second bit.

[Tootsie4U]

OK, so what is the difference between controling and re-direction? how do you re-direct without forcing the issue?

My million dollar question of the year.

There's another thread from 2 weeks ago-ish about this topic that you might find interesting Jessey.

[cvb]

My point is; does Rashid claim that softness is always always always the key no matter what devil of a horse comes into the ring?

Well we didn't have any real devils to see, but a few that had their moments. Partly this is cos Mark talks about the clinic being like a dojo - a safe place to learn. So for example, one woman had quite a nervy horse and they worked on redirecting the energy in walk and trot. But one of her aims was to work on canter. On day 2 they tried it, but the horse was getting really quite upset. They go one stretch of nice canter 3-4 strides, and then the next time was worse again. So Mark called a halt to that - as the horse was not ready to cope with it mentally. (The horse was getting in a muck sweat so was visibly upset..)

But yes, from what I've seen him do and heard him say, it DOES all come from softness. The "softness" subject is part 1 of my write-up, and when I started to write it up, I realised I'd never actually heard him define what it is, just how to deal with it, create it etc. he says "softness is from the inside" and one horse was yielding with lower jaw only - which was not softness. So it is more than just yielding. I looked it up in a dictionary and it says softness is "offering little resistance to pressure" - which kind of sums it up for me. If that "devil horse" starts to offer "little resistance to pressure"....isn't a pretty big key to a whole load of stuff ?!

OK, so what is the difference between controling and re-direction? how do you re-direct without forcing the issue?

bearing in mind this is a "work in progress" for me. We want to "control" the horse's behaviour (as we giving direction and leadership, and for safety reasons). But the point about redirection is the "how" we control.

OK - illustration via an exercise. Find a friend. get them to stand opposite you with one arm out and fist clenched, and they've got to try and stop yo moving it. Now put your hand around theirs and try and forceably move them with all the strength you have. How hard it that ?! How quickly do you both get tired ?! Thats direct confrontation - trying to control by meeting the resistance head on.

Now - start again only this time keep your arm soft, your hand open, and put the palm of your hand gently on their arm and softly move it sideways....

(its a lot easier to demo this than describe it - so i hope you get it !!)

The second one is "redirection" :D

BOTH are "control", but they use a different method/approach...

[cvb]

Oh how I have considered that one :( .......... I do thisnk that is part of the problem, but we get a 'diluted' version when out hacking. A 'strange' horse might be 50 feet infront of us, going in the same direction as us, and the head flies up, she start's evading....... I wonder sometimes if it's a lack of confidence in her own status - does that sound stupid?

No it doesn't sound stupid as it may well be part of what is going on. Being more confident in her position in the "pecking order" would probably reduce her need to establish her dominance, or run away very fast !!

There is research to show that people (and probably horses as well) pick up body language signals from a long way off so already have an idea of whether the person is above or below them in pecking order before they ar face to face.

[Jessey]

So (in very simple terms) the difference between control and re-direction is like aggression and assertion - not a bloody lot just the thought process behind it :D effecting how it comes accross.

I am so gonna save me some pennies and come to the next Rashid clinic, from what I have heard he talks alot of sense, I also fancy looking more into Lyons too.

OK now another of my random questions do y'all think that the size of the herd the horse is kept in has much effect on their behaviour?

The reason I ask is because the horses at our yard are in small groups, mostly 2's, then my 3, I often wonder if all 9 were together if Bo would get quite so upset when he see's other horses out because he would have more at home, maybe this would help him feel more settled as with more of them they would be less likely to worry when 1 gets taken out of the field and there would be a bigger group for him to think about where he is in the herd.

I only wonder as the one time I had him at a big yard and he was turned out with 6/7 other horses he was much quieter but that could just be coinsidance (we were only there 5/6 months over the winter).

Maybe we could do a poll thingy, whos horses are in big groups or small groups and if they are calm or mad when you see other horse out?

[cvb]

Jessey

I think it may depend on where they are in the herd ? The first place I kept Fi was a mixed herd of half a dozen. She was bottom of the pile and was slightly more unsettled in certain things.

Next yard had them in pairs. The first pair and her just hated each other. Second pair was with a dominant 17.3 mare, and that did the trick :cool: Fi was much more settled. She's currently in a 3some (ooer !) and tries to be boss but they ignore her. But this is such a different environment in other ways that its difficult to say what the effect is. I personally think Fi is better if there is a clear leader (not her) and she is middle ranking, and the current 3some has a "passive leader"...so not a clear alpha.

[Mehitabel]

i do prefer larger groups for horses to live in. with just 2 or 3, they get very used to their friends and can be panicky about being alone full stop, and also i think they perhaps 'forget' about socialising with horses they don't know so well - like a married couple maybe, who have each other all the time and have trouble socialising with people they don't know as well. for people and horses, social skills do need practice to keep up together.

[Jessey]

Hmmm, Bo is currently top dog (I think, he will always move the others and eat and drink first) Jess tries her luck alot and will fight Bo if the fancy takes her and Pheonix will dodge Bo but will not take any crap from Jess.

So its all a bit of a jumble thing seem to change alot but I think that is often the case when you have youngsters in the picture, Bo is the agressive/alpha leader, pheonix is the passive one and jess is just a baby trying her luck.

Mehitabel, I get what you mean, thats kind of what I wondered, Bo's social skills have always been lacking, almost more so with horses than humans, he knows where to stop with people but can really push some horses too far and gets himself in lots of trouble, he dosen't do any mutual grooming or anything like that either.

Its odd though, although Bo doesn't like to be left alone (he will settle within about 10 minutes), he will happily leave the others and he is acctually better when hacked out alone, the addition of any other horses seems to make everything more stressful.

[cvb]

i do prefer larger groups for horses to live in. with just 2 or 3, they get very used to their friends and can be panicky about being alone full stop, and also i think they perhaps 'forget' about socialising with horses they don't know so well - like a married couple maybe, who have each other all the time and have trouble socialising with people they don't know as well. for people and horses, social skills do need practice to keep up together.

Agree - our pair of boys definately had to relearn socialising with a new horse. Firstly with a little Eriskay mare - they'd just got used to her when we lost her :( So it was a bit better when Fi came. And now they are much more a 3 than a pair+1. But we're currently limited by no. of stables. New field shelter may change that ;) So when/if Fi has a baby.....

[Jessey]

Oh, baby thoughts I see, whats the plan then or is it just a first thought? :D

[cvb]

long term plan - want to get riding foundation there, and need to have vaguely stable home life :rolleyes:

Have my eye on either Joe Glow or Private B Riker :D

She's had one foal before.

[Jessey]

Ohhh, Joe Glow is stunning as is Private B Riker but I think Joe has it on looks, I know, there is way more to it than that :D

so we will keep our eyes out for Fi babies in the next couple of years then :D