Hard mouthed- long, sorry

[Yorkshire_Lass]

I have been asked to school a horse on my yard for a few weeks before he is put up for sale, as his owners daughter he was originally bought for found him too strong and hasnt ridden him for a couple of months now, and her mother is unable to ride at the moment due to injury.

I want him to be able to ridden in a snaffle before he is put up for sale, otherwise I think it will be hard to sell him especially as he hasn't really done much in the way of competeing in and discipline so whether he goes on to do dressage or showing or even jumping or eventing its going to be very novicy stuff that he probably is going to need to be snaffle mouthed for.

The problem really is that as his rider found him very strong in a snaffle she put him in a pelham but I think all this has done is make him very hard mouthed as she has still being holding very hard in this bit as she was nervous he was going to be strong and mess about with her so he has become very numb in the mouth and very unresponsive. I personally don't find him strong in a snaffle but he leans so is very heavy on your hand and very downhill and I can't get him to relax his poll and flex through his neck and back, if you take up too much of a contact he just goes into slow mode and wont accept your hand.

This is where I get a bit stuck, I would like to put him straight into a snaffle but I can't school a horse who is numb, I tried riding him in spurs to try to keep him going forward into the contact but this made little difference, he just got very upright and set his neck against my hand. I have also tried him in my double bridle and he responded to this a bit better. He needs quite a lot of curb rein at the minute to make him listen and if you dont take quite a strong contact on the curb he ignores the snaffle but once he is going forward he started to mouth the bit and started to strecth down and relax and worked quite well. Working on this idea, I was thinking maybe rather than go back to a snaffle right away I should keep going in the double and try and use less and less curb rein until I can ride him off the bradoon then go into a snaffle on its own, but i'm worried that the amount of curb rein I have to use at the moment i'm going to end up relying on it too much and make his hard mouth even harder? I'm a bit confused about where to go from here so any ideas will be very gratefully recieved! Thanks a lot, YL x

[Mehitabel]

i doubt his mouth is physically numb - i would guess that he leans because he is 'taking control' of the contact - it hurts when he has been held in so he leans as a reaction to it - if he is already leaning on it, the jerking hands won;t hurt as much.

how is he with seat aids? if i had him to ride, i think i'd be aiming for that primarily, stop him relying on being held up by his mouth and teach him to listen to stopping and turning from the seat and legs. then hopefully he will forget the associations of the bit, if you can manage to keep a light contact, and be able to go back to using it.

for heavy and downhill - transitions. a million of them. generally the longer they stay in one pace, the more onto the forehand they go - so start off doing walk-halt at every letter round the school, change rein regularly, halt in the middle of the rein change too - for instance across the long diagonal - make the turn, halt, halt again as you cross X, halt again before the turn onto the other rein. halting gives a chance to rebalance and get the bum back underneath. it'll also help the leaning as you'll be constantly asking something different, so he won't have the chance to grab the bit and lean.

then as you introduce trot, same thing - trot-walk-halt, halt-trot, and vice versa, do something at every single letter. on a circle, aim for 4 transitions round the circle, serpentines, halt before and after each bendy bit and at X each time. figures * - 4 halts on each circle of it.

[Jessey]

If I were in your siuuation I would go for the less is more theory unless it was unsafe to do so.

I would opt to go bitless for a while, he is obviously not happy in his mouth hense the reason the more you ask for the more he leans (I'm going to liken it to walking barefoot on gravel, walking is painful but if you just stand still it is bareable - the constant pain is less than the moving one)

I would still use the snaffle, probably go for a french link or myler or something that lessens the nutcracker action and maybe drop the bit down a hole or two so that the horse can choose where is comfortable to hold it in his mouth then put the bitless on over the top, so that he gets used to the bit being there but it being a comfotable experiance, like you would with a youngster who has never had a bit before, then gradually as he is relaxing more start taking up the snaffle a little at a time, really slowly so it doesn't re-stress him, I would probably do this with double reins (one to bitless and one for snaffle) so you still have some control if you need it :D or even on the lunge with side reins or a bungee.

The only time I use a more severe bit for a horse that leans is when you know it is more than happy and capable of doing what you are asking but is just being down right LAZY :D and sometimes then a more severe bit can just wake them up and stop the lean.

Even then some horses just don't like snaffles, mine is so much better in a bit with a little curb action than a plain snaffle not that he is a problem just way nicer in a curb bit, have you tried a kimblewick, maybe that would be compramise to the double?

J x

[cvb]

The problem really is that as his rider found him very strong in a snaffle she put him in a pelham but I think all this has done is make him very hard mouthed as she has still being holding very hard in this bit as she was nervous he was going to be strong and mess about with her so he has become very numb in the mouth and very unresponsive. I personally don't find him strong in a snaffle but he leans so is very heavy on your hand and very downhill and I can't get him to relax his poll and flex through his neck and back, if you take up too much of a contact he just goes into slow mode and wont accept your hand.

This is where I get a bit stuck, I would like to put him straight into a snaffle but I can't school a horse who is numb, I tried riding him in spurs to try to keep him going forward into the contact but this made little difference, he just got very upright and set his neck against my hand.

Not sure why you can't retrain this horse, he just needs help to see what is required and find where the "correct" release is.

But if you do this by using stronger aids, you are defeating your own purpose. In a way you need to re "bit" him from scratch.

uh - Jessey's posted in the meantime so I'll stop there as she's covered it...

[Yorkshire_Lass]

Thanks for your all your replies. Mehitabel seat aids something i've been trying to work on so i'm not relying on my hands for control and to hold him up. Echo that for transitions, I've been trying to do as much as possible, especially walk to halt but without much of a contact so he learns to listen to seat and weight aids and can't lean on my hands but I find this very hard with him as he is a big strong horse and when he wants to ignore you, he does. I know he's not physically numb but that's the feeling I get when I ride him, I think he's just been ridden so strongly and heavily he ignores the light contanct i've been trying to use.

The way I see this is he's never been schooled properly in a snaffle and has been almost forced to lean on the bit, like you have all said to stop the pain from strong hands in a strong but, and like you say cvb there is no reason why he can't be re schooled in a snaffle, but as I said i'm trying to use a light contact on him, which ever bit i'm using, he is very un responsive due to not being schooled properly in a snaffle. I don't feel he is dangerously strong but he feels like he is just ignoring me and like i'm not really doing him any good, he feels better in a double but i don't want to make the situation any worse so maybe i'm not the rider to be doing this? He could probably do with someone more experienced who can reschool him in a snaffle, or like you say Jessey in a bitless becuase to be honest I wouldn't feel safe on him in a bitless but it may well be the best route to go down if he's not ready to accept a bit yet.

YL x

[Mehitabel]

how is he with voice aids? have you done leading and lungeing with him responding to voice? that can make the transition to listening to lighter aids much easier as well.

[cvb]

YL - don't rule yourself out of this - you have a big plus for him in that you want to sort it out ! Rather than getting someone else to do it for you, could you find someone to coach you now and then, i.e. help you from the ground. That way you both learn... :D