Going back to basics before we have a problem

[MLM]

Hi, i'm new to this forum but I was hoping some of you could give me a few ideas and suggestions with a problem i'm having. I appologise in advance for this turning into a long message!

I was reading another recent post and found I was having a similar problem but rather than invading that post i thought i'd better start a new one.
I own a welsh c pony, she's 10 years old and was well schooled as a youngster and was going well when i bought her three years ago and was coming on well with me and was working well in a novice long low outline in a snaffle this time last year. As she got fitter she got stronger and becoame a big strong muscley woman and I tried her in a pelham for a while but this was too strong for her and she was a bit too responsive in a way so we went to a double so the curb and snaffle action could be defined and adjusted as necessary and she was going well with just the curb being there to back up the snaffle when she got strong, it wasn't creating false outline but it kept her light and relaxed when she got a bit heavy on the bradoon.

Recently though, she has become quite unresponisive to me and doesn't have the active hind end she used to have and although I have managed to stop her leaning by getting her to respond to seat and weight aids she doesnt accept the contact and relax the poll as well as she used to. I am finding myself having to use more and more curb rein to keep her listening and to keep her light, my curb rein in never shorter than the bradoon but it is getting nearer and nearer the same length and I don't want to get to the point where i'm solely relying on the curb so I want to sort this problem before it becomes a big issue.

I have done little schooling with her over the last few weeks, we have starting doing a lot of pole and jump work and hacking out so she doesn't get too bored with schooling and started to school her again just over a week ago and we have had about four maybe five schooling sessions. I think the problem i face now is my fault as I took her out of her snaffle too early and didn't get her going well enough in that before going into a double becuase she was being so strong with me, and now her mouth has hardened to the double and I really odn't want this to get any worse. I have decided to go back into a snaffle and want to get her working well in this I can before going back to her double so hopefully I can have her as light in this as I used to.

In her snaffle at the moment I find it hard to ride her from my inside leg to my outside hand to get her to flex through her body and bend, as apposed to being straight and wooden. I always try to not be strong with my hands and to keep her going forwards, which being a welsh she does well but as soon as I try to take hold of the front end she slows down and however much I try to ride her forwards into the contact she feels as if she's ignoring me, and she's not exactly leaning, and I don't think it's because she's in pain as I have never been hard on her mouth, and she does understand what i'm asking of her as out hacking she will work very nicely but in the school she sort of switches off in this bit and feels as if she's sort of saying 'if I don't have to i'm not going to'

I'm at a bit of a loss at what to do now, I can't really afford to spend any more time without schooling as I have a few shows coming up, including some dressage, so I would like her to find her mojo again pretty soon as she seems to have misplaced it somewhere along the line. I don't think going into a stronger bit is going to help in the long term as her mouth my well harden to this as well and then be even harder to get back into a snaffle, but our schooling seems to have hit a dead end and i'm not sure where to turn next.
I will be very grateful of your advice and any input you can give me on my situation! Thankyou.

[lisae]

Have you checked her saddle fit? This is always mentioned but if she has come back into work maybe she's changed her shape. Also I would try regular carrot stretches with her maybe she is tight with some back pain.

[Tootsie4U]

You already see where you need to go. I agree with you 100%.

Her signs of strongness were not indicators to put in a stronger bit. It was an indicator that something in the training scale was missing. Not a fault though, its seemingly much easier and faster to slap in another bit and cross your fingers that it'll stop the behavior, and in some instances with certain horses it will. But, and its a big but, you risk having what happened to you - the underlying problem isnt solved and the horse just learns to ignore that bit. Then the viscious cycle starts, stronger bits followed by stronger bits.

So in all, I congratulate you for seeing that softness stems from softness and that is why its important to go back to the snaffle and find that missing link in the training scale instead.

Yes, it'll take more time, yes, it means more work for you but this time you're fixing it to fix it, not just covering up the problem.

My most favorite exercise in the world for this type of problem works becauase you show the horse she has nothing to fear by moving forward. Its actually a dressage exercise, so you may already be familiar with it, but its been manipulated by the natural horseman trainers to get horses like this over their reluctance to accept contact and move out (dull to the aids/leg horses as well).

After a few minutes at the walk, take a free rein (not loose rein) and have your mare trot out. Ask with your seat and leg for the trot and if she doesn't take your cue, reach behind and literally spank her on her bottom (or you can use a schooling whip if you aren't comfortable moving in the saddle that way.) When she moves, let her move. Resist the urge to do anything but rise to the rythm of her trot. Don't grab the reins. In doing so, you're showing her it is ok for her to move energeticly, that she won't be conflicted by pressure in her mouth and that her rider won't hinder her movement- rather her rider will go along with it, support it and encourage it. 99.9% of the time in the begining, the horse's head flies up, her back goes hollow and the exercise looks anything but like how you think it should. But, that is to be expected. Ignore it and continue to fight the urge to pull her back into a shape. As soon as she realizes that she won't be restricted in any way, she'll drop her head, soften her back and soften her mouth.

The key is, you've got to keep her going and got to stay off her mouth. When she gets to the point where she drops her head and softens, then she's accepted things have changed. Then, and only then can you begin to ask more engagement from her (using leg and influencing her stride by the timing of your rise - spanking her if she chooses to ignore the leg). You need to get her to the point where you're getting that 'left behind' feeling every time you rise out of the saddle. You should see a significant swing in the front shoulder and someone on the ground will see an obvious change in the hocks in the back end. At this point, she's ready, you're ready, to take up some rein. Little by little and if she should fall apart (head goes up, shoulders stop swinging, becomes unbalanced) its a sign to you that either you've done somehting in your own body to restrict her or that you're moving too fast with the contact.

This is a remedial exercise. It isnt a training exercise. It differs slightly from the dressage exercise in that the dressage exercise you slowly LET OUT the contact on a circle while the horse stays balanced under the balanced rider. Its remedial in the sense that you've got to tell the horse that the expectations its developed of restraint are not on the table anymore. She *can* move forward without being contained in the front end. She *can* soften without having her rider fight her for it. She *can* move out uninhibited.

Remember, softness begets softness. Allow her to be soft and if she's a forward mare, use that to your advantage in this exericse rather than trying to weild it.

[cvb]

Recently though, she has become quite unresponisive to me and doesn't have the active hind end she used to have and although I have managed to stop her leaning by getting her to respond to seat and weight aids she doesnt accept the contact and relax the poll as well as she used to.

In her snaffle at the moment I find it hard to ride her from my inside leg to my outside hand to get her to flex through her body and bend, as apposed to being straight and wooden. I always try to not be strong with my hands and to keep her going forwards, which being a welsh she does well but as soon as I try to take hold of the front end she slows down and however much I try to ride her forwards into the contact she feels as if she's ignoring me, and she's not exactly leaning, and I don't think it's because she's in pain as I have never been hard on her mouth, and she does understand what i'm asking of her as out hacking she will work very nicely but in the school she sort of switches off in this bit and feels as if she's sort of saying 'if I don't have to i'm not going to'


Lots of things to go for in this - but I've gone for specific bits as its getting late in the working day ;)

What sort of things do you do when you are schooling ? You give the impression that you think she is getting bored. Is it also less fun for you because of the way she is behaving right now ?

You say you "can't really afford to spend any more time without schooling" so one thing to look at is how to make that more fun, but still achieve what you want, not get distracted into things that aren't helping the problem.

You also say you started from a nice novice outline. What happens if you take her back to that ? Does she loosen up at all or does she stay "unmojo"d ?

It sounds like she is physically blocked, and wherever that is coming from, we need to "unblock" her. It would be interesting to know what happens if you ride "unblocked" i.e. rider her forward, active, do stuff she "swings" in. Also do a self-inventory - check whether you are "blocked" or braced anywhere as well. The pair of you could have got into a vicious circle that we need to break.

"I find it hard to ride her from my inside leg to my outside hand to get her to flex through her body and bend"

So what exercises can you do on this ? Start by asking for her to flex her head and neck in and stay on the track. A useful one here can be counter-flexion circles. Ride a circle, say on the left rein. Now turn it into a figure 8 but as you go across the change-over of the 8, keep her in left flexion. Ride at least half the new circle in counter flexion and then change back to correct flexion. repeat the other way.

Having loosened up head and neck (hopefully) you can try a little shoulder-fore. Circle away of she starts to lose balance or impulsion.

... got more ideas but need to think about clearing my desk and shutting down PC to go home !

[Yorkshire_Lass]

Can I just say thankyou for posting this, i've been having some very similar problems with my own mare, and another horse I am currently riding who I am trying to ride in a snaffle after some problems caused by riding them in an overly strong bits and I found some of the exerscises posted on here very helpful. I'm afraid I can't give you any advice but will wish you the best of luck, you know all your hard work will be worth it in the end :)
Thanks again YL x

[MLM]

Her signs of strongness were not indicators to put in a stronger bit. It was an indicator that something in the training scale was missing.

In can see this now and I am very annoyed with myself for not staying in a snaffle, but I want to do the right thing this time round before our problem gets worse. :) Thanks a lot for that Tootsie, I think I have always had a bit of a problem deep down with being slightly fearful of letting her go too forwards after an incident we had when the brakes didn't work, this is probably one reason why I changed her bit and like I said, in heinseight I shouldn't have done but at the time it was safety over anything else really. I will really work on this exercise though, I guess if she's not going forwards we're never going to get anywhere, literally!
What sort of things do you do when you are schooling ? You give the impression that you think she is getting bored. Is it also less fun for you because of the way she is behaving right now ?

I've been trying to keep our schooling as varied as possible, never staying in one pace or going in one direction too long and we've been doing lots of pole and grid work as she loves jumping and it helps to free her up and relax her and it also distracts me from the things that aren't going so well. I think the problem is, I do find it very hard to forget about the problems and you're right I don't find it fun and neither does she and she gets bored very easily, and as soon as this happens I havn't got a hope in hell of achieving anything.

She will work in a novicey outline, but she's often very on the forehand and rides downhill and i'm usually concentrating on getting her more uphill rather than just letting her stay long and relaxed, so this is something I will do more of and try and perfect before trying to take it any further. I will work on those exercises as well CVB, thankyou very much for all your advice!

[Tootsie4U]

I think I have always had a bit of a problem deep down with being slightly fearful of letting her go too forwards after an incident we had when the brakes didn't work

Do the exercise in an empty arena. If she gets forward, so what... where is she gonna go? She can't go flat out for too long and you're in an enclosed, safe environment. Remember that she's most likely got a mental hang up. She needs to come through this and you have to let yourself allow her to do so. Its important to learn to be a good passenger, as much as it is important to learn to be a good partner!

[cvb]

MLM

I can vouch for Tootsie's exercise - my mare is spooky and has dumped me a few times :rolleyes: So I was also getting into "safety" mode, micromanaging, and it was making both of us get cranky :( When she's scared, if she feels me in limpet mode it just sets her off even more !

So we did quite a lot of that "ride the rail" or "passenger" type work. I did have the benefit of a western saddle to help with MY confidence ;)

I alternated the passengar stuff (often my warm up) with work on yielding laterally - from the flexion work, shoulder-fore, leg yield etc.

Another variation on the figure 8 pattern is to ride a 20m circle at E/B, and ride smaller circles the other way towards A/C. This time keep "true" bend but look for smooth transitions from one to t'other...