Palomino - Breed? Colour? Both?

[Funky MeerKAT]

I always thought that there was a breed of Palomino as well as a colour, but I have just read in a couple of sites that it is not a breed, only a colour!! I am sure that I have always read in books of horse breeds that it is a breed.

Very confused!! Can anyone help?

Thanks

http://www3.sympatico.ca/richard.yoopie/mariline/palomino.jpg

[iluvhorses28]

I think palomino is a breed. I never thought it was a color. That palomino is very pretty. my mom saays she wants one. :rolleyes: Do you have more palminos?

[Funky MeerKAT]

Oh, that horse is not mine lol, but he is beautiful. Just a random picture off the net because I thought he was so pretty lol.

[Nicole5310]

PALOMINO IS DEFINATELY NOT A BREED!
It is a colour, by expressing genes inherited from its parents.

Palomino occurs when a horse with a base colour is chestnut and it inherits one cream gene. Cream is always expressed and it only dilutes red so has no effect on black. For example buckskin is a bay with 1 cream gene also.

Because of this palominos do not breed true (you wont always get a palomino out of crossing 2 palominos together 25% chestnut, 50% palomino, 25% cremello)

Palomino (or more accurately the cream gene) is found in many different breeds, most common in QH and Welsh at least in my country (NZ).

Some books do indeed say palomino is a breed. This is really annoying to anyone who works in genetics or works with horse colours. There is a lot of misinformation out there.

Also many books say that the halflinger breed is palomino, but it is merely homozygous for flaxen meaning every horse will inherit the flaxen gene. If halflingers were palomino, you would get chestnut and cremello individuals also.

There are many great sites online which are easy to find. Occasionally you come across inaccuracies in these but if you want to learn how colour works they are a great place to start.

I hope I have been of some help. If you want more info dont be afraid to ask :)

[chev]

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47377&highlight=dilute+genes For an explanation of how cream works to give palominos, and why, as Nicole says, they cannot be classed as a breed.

Palominos occur in several breeds - like Welsh ponies. Hafflingers, although some call them palomino (there's one registered with teh palomino society :rolleyes: ) are not - they're chestnut, which is how they come to breed true for colour.

As the post I've linked to will explain, a breed will always breed true, and have definite characteristics - like Welsh A x Welsh A = Welsh A. Palominos not only occur in several vastly different breeds (like Welsh A and Warmblood) and so don't breed true to type but they don't breed true for colour either. There's only ever a 50% chance of breeding a palomino from a palomino, even if you breed two together.

[Funky MeerKAT]

Thanks guys, very interesting!! I have never really thought about it, just read it in a few books when I was younger and assumed that books would be right, never though more of it. Then someone in another site posted that palominos were not a breed and I was like 'what?' thats new to me. But it does make sense now that I think about it, in most breeds there are more traits than just colour, (conformation, temperament, etc) when I think about it all the palominos I have seen are totally different.

Thanks for clearing that up!! I can now go and spread the word lol.

[helenc]

I thought that Palomino was a specific breed in the US.

If this is the case then not all offspring will be able to be registered but it wouldn't be the only stud book to discriminate against colour

[chev]

There is a palomino breeders association in the US - not sure if they class it as a breed or not, but genetically, palominos are chestnut horses with one cream dilute gene - it is wholly colour and not breed related. Unfortunately even the palomino societies can be incredibly innaccurate about these horses at times. The following quotes are extracts from the palomino horse association.

"Many feel that Palomino is only a color and not a breed, which is true that the color of Palomino comes in all breeds, but the Palomino of Spanish times the Golden Dorado, was as close to being a breed as any strain of horse. The Dorado was of Arabic-Moorish-Spanish blood and breeding, closely akin to the Arabian and the Moorish Barb. The Palomino of Spanish times was not bred by being crossed with sorrels. The Spanish had many shades of golden horses, and when they did use "Corral Breeding" a light color Palomino mare would be mated with a very dark-colored Palomino stallion. This point has been noted in an old book and printed in Barcelona in 1774."

Ok, so if you want to take writings from 1774 as gospel, they bred palominos from palominos and got nothing but palomino. Genetically that's wholly innaccurate. There is only ever a 50% chance of getting palomino from pallomino x palomino - fact. So half the palominos they bred would have been palomino - the other half would have been sorrel (or chestnut) and cremello - obviously it wasn't noted what happened to them ;) . Another interesting point is that there is no cream gene in the Arab breed. Arabs don't carry that particular mutation. Any palomino you find advertised as Arabian will have had the cream introduced via another breed at some point in their breeding - so the Dorado was really a mongrel horse itself.

" In the last few years we have opened our doors to creme colored horse with blue eyes. It has been researched and proven that these light colored Palominos always produce a Palomino. Therefore, they are definite breeding stock for the Palomino. "

Or cremellos, as they in fact are. And yes, crossed with a chestnut they will indeed throw palomino every time, because they are chestnut with two cream genes themselves, so have to pass on cream when put to a chestnut and give palomino. However they will also throw buckskin, smoky black, perlino, smoky cream and cremello if put to a bay, black, smoky black, buckskin or palomino. So they are only definite breeding stock for palomino is used exclusively on chestnut mares. And the palomino offspring they produce still only have a 50% chance of passing on cream to their offspring.

[helenc]

Yes Chev, I understand all of the colour stuff - what I am saying is that not every breed society accepts all horses even if their pedigree proves that they are actually of the correct parentage (ie. no blue eyed connemaras are allowed to be registered therefore no cremello or perlino ponies but pallys & buckskins are allowed so we know that the cream gene does exist, just full creams are not able to be registered) - could it not be that a palomino breed would be treated in the same way ie. cremellos & chestnuts not accepted, only pallys can actually be registered.

[chev]

Absolutely. The palomino society here won't accept buckskins, sooty palominos, or double dilutes of any kind, just like the Welsh Pony and Cob Society won't accept loud sabinos.

My point is that regardless of society registration rules, palominos don't breed true - and breed, whether bred for colour or not, must breed true to type at least. And there is no one type of palomino at all.

Same with tobianos - CHAPS register all coloureds, regardless of type. They don't register solid horses born to coloured parents. So they refuse registration on grounds of colour too - just like some breed standards. But again, it is a colour society - not a breed society, just like the palomino societies.

The Bristish Palomino Society inspects horses for colour, nothing else. That is a colour society, not a breed society. You could start a register for bays, based on the same premise - but bay would still be a colour, not a breed. Same with the dun society. Duns are not regarded as a breed either.

You could conceivably develop a horse that breeds true to type, that has a high percentage of cream in it, and call it Palomino, and refuse registration of anything but single dilute chestnuts (ie palominos) - but as it stands, none of the Palomino societies do that, so no, it really can't be classed as a breed.

[Smokous_Pocus7]

when i think Palamino i think colour, but i guess it is a breed to! i mean like every horse book i read, it always says it both, but it can be any breed), so really i would say both, but you make the call!

[sarahbeth]

I've always counted it as both: The palomino breed have a certain conformation, like any other breed would. It's always colored palomino too, hence, it's the palomino breed. But the palomino color can appear in other breeds too, even when the horse is pure. Morgans, Thoroughbreds, Arabians, Quarter Horses, Welshs, Saddlebreds, Tennese Walking Horses, Mustangs, and Brumbies are the most common breeds to have the color, but I think that every breed can have it. So it is a breed, but he color of the breed can appear in other breeds, just not as much. Pintos and appaloosas are also colored breeds.

[chev]

Not every breed can be palomino, no. Arabs can't, Hafflingers, most of the draft breeds, Cleveland Bays, most UK natives barring Shetlands and Welsh, Friesians... none of them carry the cream gene, and that's only a few of the breeds that don't.

If there is a type of horse that could be classed as palomino, it's still not true to say it's always palomino even - the genes just don't work that way. Half of them will be palomino, a quarter will be chestnut, and a quarter will be cremello. Palomino does not, and never will, breed true for colour. That's genetics.

[Just.Jump]

Color. Breeding two palominos together (as far as I know) cannot create a palomino.

Plus, there is obviously the fact that the horse in that picture is indeed, not a QH, one of the most common breeds to have palomino coloring. The people who made the breed registry are idiots.

Palomino morgan:
http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/cream/images/darkpaloMorgan.jpg
Palomino quarter horse:
http://www.premierpub.com/finder/images/qh/g/GOLDEN-CAANTENDER2.jpg
Paloimino TB (Dreaming of Gold is his name)
http://www.rtm-anglo-arabs.com/TitusSp04.jpg

Definately not a breed, definately not a 'type' or a 'build'. Thats like saying all grey horses must be built like warmbloods.

[chev]

Color. Breeding two palominos together (as far as I know) cannot create a palomino.

Yes, it can.

Palomino is chestnut (ee) with cream (C)

Two palominos will breed eeCc (palomino), eeCC (cremello), or eecc (chestnut).

So palomino x palomino will give a 25% chance of chestnut, a 25% chance of cremello, and a 50% chance of palomino.

Still not a breed though :p

[Just.Jump]

Ah, I see, wasn't too sure of the genetics on that one!

[xhorse_riderx]

ITS NOT A BREED!!!!!! a colour !!! :):):):) :D

[ponylover88]

Ive always thought it as a colour and not a breed, but now on to what i initially wanted to post on this thread for! ...
What is the difference between a Palomino and a Chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail?
For eg, what colour is the mare that ive attached?

[chev]

She could be either! It's almost impossible to tell by looking whether it's a dark palomino or a flaxen chestnut. There are three indicators - first would be breed... if it's a Hafflinger for example, it's flaxen chestnut. Likewise any other breed that doesn't carry cream, like Arabs, and so on. Next is parentage; If it has at least one dilute parent (so buckskin, palomino, cremello etc) it could be palomino. If there's no dilute parent, then it's not palomino. Third (and the only reliable way in some cases) is to have a genetic test for cream done.

[xhorse_riderx]

i personally think your mare looks like a palamino !! i cant see up close as sometimes can depend on skin colour ! so dnt take word !! but from the pic she looks like that! i see what you mean she could be a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail !!! :)

[Est]

This is an interesting thread!

Chev - your explanation of the genetics is very helpful :)

I have often wondered what to class Ria as. I remember reading that one of the palomino societies specifies that a true palomino colour should be no more than 3 shades lighter or darker than a newly minted coin. Ria is definitely a little darker than that.

It just gets a bit wordy describing her as a chestnut-with-a-flaxen-mane-and-tail! Plus she has white hair through her coat - but she is nothing like a strawberry roan in colour.

And then to top it off, she has a white patch on her belly. My (not very horsey so probably wrong!) aunty who lives in america says that over there she would probably be called a sorrel roan sobiano :rolleyes:

It would be so much easier to call her palomino and have done with it!

Of course in winter she is mud-brown which is easiest to describe of all :D

[chev]

Remember though that just because that's how the palomino society define it doesn't mean it's not a palomino if it doesn't fit in with their standard...

Palomino is cause by what's called an incomplete dominant allele - in other words, the action of the cream gene can vary hugely, which is why some palominos are a very pale cream while others are almost orange. Then there are those who have other modifiers as well - like the sooty type modifiers that make a chestnut into liver chestnut. They act on palomino as well - it's quite common to see very dark sooty palominos in Welsh breeding for example.

I'll try and attach a pic to show what I mean... this is Aberaeron Idris, a classy example of a sooty palomino. He would never be accepted for registration with any of the palomino societies, but genetically he is - and he produced palomino offspring too.

[ponylover88]

The mare i posted the pic up of is a Haflinger. Does that help with the colour? Will be going up on to the yard where she is on saturday, ill try get more pics of her then. :D see if there are any better pics i can find aswell. :D
Heres a better pic of her.
Shes the haflinger in the middle of the pic. ;)

[Est]

I would never in a million years have thought to call him palomino! That has been an eye-opener :)

I think I'm going to track down a good book on colour genetics and find out more. (Boring bookworm talking ;) )

If you can recommend anything, let me know...

[Stiltz]

...

[chev]

ponylover88 - she's a flaxen chestnut, without a doubt. There is no cream gene in Hafflingers, so no palominos. :)

Est - try Equine Colour Genetics by D Phillip Sponenberg, and Horse Genetics by Dr Anna Bowling - or another of Sponenberg's called Horse Color. The first one is really good - very detailed.

[ponylover88]

thank you! :D have always thought she was chestnut but everyone calls her a palomino.
she is lovely, rode her for the 1st time on wednesday. makes a change from the last haflinger i rode! after her i swore id never ride 1 again but Jessie has proved that not all haflingers are evil!! :D

[helenc]

If there is a type of horse that could be classed as palomino, it's still not true to say it's always palomino even - the genes just don't work that way. Half of them will be palomino, a quarter will be chestnut, and a quarter will be cremello. Palomino does not, and never will, breed true for colour. That's genetics.

Yes but as already said the breed society can quite easily not register those that aren't palomino in colour.

I'm not saying you're wrong chev because I don't know whether there is a US breed called Palomino (although I always thought there was), just that it is possible for there to be a breed called palomino that only accepts horses true to type & of the correct parentage which are palomino in colour too.

[mad mare1]

Chev, My friend actually has a palomino arab stallion, and his son is a palomino, and so is his grandson. The stallion in question is Eldyr, and he is from the famous Shulay stud, home of Shulay Gold"n"Silver. My friend now uses him on many different colours of arabian mare, and gets around 50% Palomino from him. She never had that kind of success rate breeding black Arabians!!!!!

[helenc]

[QUOTE=mad mare1]Chev, My friend actually has a palomino arab stallion, and his son is a palomino, and so is his grandson. QUOTE]

Chev is right - Pure bred arabs don't come in pally - nor do they come in coloured BUT there are breeders out there who breed very high % coloured & pally part bred arabs.

There was a piccy in H&H not so long ago of a coloured part bred who was something like 95% arab - looked like a full arab but actually wasn't.

[chev]

Chev, My friend actually has a palomino arab stallion, and his son is a palomino, and so is his grandson. The stallion in question is Eldyr, and he is from the famous Shulay stud, home of Shulay Gold"n"Silver. My friend now uses him on many different colours of arabian mare, and gets around 50% Palomino from him. She never had that kind of success rate breeding black Arabians!!!!!

Eldyr was chestnut. His palomino son Shulay Faberge was out of a palomino mare called Fayrelands Silver Lace. Silver Lace was a palomino part-bred Arab mare.

[chev]

Shulay Stud (http://www.shulaystud.com/) Picture of Eldyr here; clearly not palomino!

[Kalypso]

I'm not saying you're wrong chev because I don't know whether there is a US breed called Palomino (although I always thought there was), just that it is possible for there to be a breed called palomino that only accepts horses true to type & of the correct parentage which are palomino in colour too.

I know this thread is old, but....

Over here, we call the palomino a 'color breed'. Much the same way as a paint is a 'color breed'. They have to have certain color characteristics to be registered as a 'color' or else (as in the case of paints) they would just be a QH most of the time - or whatever breed they are. Over here, most of the palominos you see are QH's, which is why a lot of people seem to think that Palominos are a 'type' rather than a color. Most of them you see, the 'typical' palomino, is built like a QH. I'm not saying that's right ;) , I'm just saying that's what a lot of people think of when they see Palominos over here in the states.

I'm thinking that made absolutely no sense whatsoever...but I knew what I was trying to say :o :o

[love4horses]

I personally think Palomino as a color. Here in the United States though there is a "Palomino Horse Association". But it is almost all quarter horses. Palomino is most common in them it seems like, although many people are trying to get the palomino coloring into the Tennessee Walking horses, which there are many of them.

[mogadoga]

My friend has a MW Palamino Cob, with welsh in him. And my other has an Arab x Cob which too is palamino. They are stunners!

[hollyberry86]

The palomino is most definitely a colour and the basis for my dissertation. There are great number of combinations which can produce a palomino, the most common being chestnut x cremello giving 100% certainty of a palomino due to the homozygous alleles, chestnut ChCh cremello CrCr, chestnut x palomino gives a 50% chance of palomino and chestnut foal each, palomino x palomino gives 50% palomino, 25% cremello, 25% chestnut.

There are many breeds in which the palomino colouring is present and it appears as far as my research has proved to be slightly variable in colour dependant on breed for instance arabian horses produce a "better" colour by definition of the palomino society than the welsh breeds.

So far the most common parentage in the uk of a palomino is chestnut x cremello as people are breeding intentionally for colour and these also appear to be the most successful in the show ring. So far this research has been focused on the phenotype (appearance) rather than genotype of the horse, so there is much more to be researched.

Just a bit of info, if you have any questions I have a 12,000 word dissertation on the colour!!
thanks

[chev]

chestnut ChCh cremello CrCr,

Chestnut is denoted as e, not ch. Cremello is ee CrCr, chestnut is ee.

[EmmaArr]

definately (sp) a colour, hence why we can get palomino welsh cobs, palomino arabs ect.
x

[chev]

There are no palomino Arabs; the gene does not exist in Arabians. There are high percentage palomino Arabs, where another breed has been used to introduce the colour.