Falling in on circles! Update on last thread!

[Drummers mum]

Ok, I'm back again with a new thread but I think this is my biggest problem and I need help desperately because I really seem to be getting frustrated and cross with Drummer and my riding and its not helping either of us!

Today I tried some of the things people kindly suggested on my last thread (thank you guys!) but I couldn't get a circle in trot at all, let alone maintain it!

I did the cone thing to get him moving off my leg and also tried other lateral exercises. I did lots of serpentines and things and I tried the cutting the circle in half thing but it was awful! :(

Circles and turns are worse than ever. He just falls in through his shoulder unless you literaly turn his head to your knee and spin him!

I used so much leg to keep him out but he still wouldn't stay and I end up trying to pull him out with the outside rein (I even weighted the outside stirrup so much that I fell off, see thread in general!!!!)

I'm lost!

[Drummers mum]

I'm replying to myself as a sudden thought struck me! can anyone recommend a good book/website/something that I can refer to? (other than here, lol!)

[Just.Jump]

To get the horses shoulder from falling in, you have to make sure that you know how to move the shoulders wherever you want, and that the horse will listen to what your asking. Do you do shoulder in/shoulder out with him? Rollbacks. turning on the forehand? If you can do all that, all you need to do in the circles is to keep his nose pointing inwards and his shoulder following his head. He should be leading with his nose, not his shoulder. I'm not sure if english riders do it, but what I'm taught at my stable is to use both direct and indirect reining while laying my left leg on hard. My riding mare was being terrible for the same thing the other day, but at a canter so even less willing to move over :cool:

Another thing is that you shouldn't have to be pushing the whole way. If he's giving up on you, tap him with the crop/split reins. If you then find that you would have to be constantly tapping him, I would do just one firm one instead. Better to do just one 'no nonsense' type of thing rather than continually using it on them.

[nutkin]

have you thought about the position of your shoulders when on a circle. My YO explained that alot of riders tend to force their horse to motorbike the circles because they tend to lean in rather than just leading with their shoulder. Have you tried pushing your outside shoulder out further than the inside shoulder so as your weight is more to the outside of your body. I have this problem sometimes with my horse(all my fault) and this is what corrected it.

[galadriel]

What are you doing with your outside rein? If you lose contact with the outside you lose the bend.

Have you read this?
http://lorienstable.com/articles/riding/200-staying_on_the_rail/

[Drummers mum]

Thats a nice easy artical to understand, thanks Gal! :D I think I am trying to pull him back onto the track wih my reins. :o

I will try again today! Poor pony has done nothing but schooling all week! ;)

Do you do shoulder in/shoulder out with him? Rollbacks. turning on the forehand?
We can do a quarter turn on the forehand but I am struggling to stop him walking forwards. What is a Rollback? and I really would like to teach him shoulder i but don't know where to start!

[Just.Jump]

a rollback is a western move, but it's really very good training all around, I'd say. You can do it anywhere in the arena, but most people do it when their horses is the regular distance away fromt he fance and paralell to it. They then give the cues for the horse to shift their weight back (so picking up the reins a bit and almost asking for a back up) and then do a shoulder out to put it simply. They push the horses shoulder into the fence but also guide the head over, trying to keep the horse as straight as possible, because turning is pointless for this. They pivot like a basketball player would, on on of their hind legs while they nicely swing their body around so that they become paralell to the fence facing the opposite direction than the one they started in.

Most people prefer to do rollbacks and then emediatly canter, because a correct rider will let the horses face go when they come midway (facing the fence) and continue to signal them to move over, but also to go foreward. Because of the way theiry pivot, they can then pick up the correct lead emmediatly.

It does take alot of work though!

[galadriel]

They pivot like a basketball player would, on on of their hind legs while they nicely swing their body around so that they become paralell to the fence facing the opposite direction than the one they started in.

You could call this a "turn on the haunches."

[nirikina]

I'm working on circles with my share horse Snoopy at the moment, both in trot and canter, because he finds it very hard to bend. He can do it, but as you say a lot of the time he simply steps in with his inside shoulder. Also, unless the bend is there he picks up the wrong canter lead.

What I found to be helpful is schooling just after someone has been lunging in the arena so there's a perfect circle in the sand to follow. :-) It really makes you aware of the bend being slight but constant. Hard work though!

Another thing I'm doing is practicing circles in the local playing fields - huge open grassy area. Because Snoopy finds bending difficult in canter, in the school if I let him drift out a tiny bit I then have to turn him tighter to compensate to avoid hitting the arena wall. Out on the grass there's no boundaries so if he gets out of balance I can let him straighten for a few strides then ask him to bend again. It's not one perfect circle but it's many portions of a circle, and it's still practicing correct bend.

I'm mixing this work with teaching him to yield/bend/move over at a stand still. He'd never done this before so at first when I'd ask him to turn his head he'd start moving off in that direction. Now he knows he can turn/bend without going forward. And we're starting on turn on the forehand/haunches too to teach him to move away from pressure, which will hopefully help his circles.

Hope this helps.