How can I stop him bucking?

[*Sez*]

I have had my horse, Jake, for almost three weeks. Prior to buying him, we were warned that he can get "over-excited" and buck, and although we went for visits with him for three weeks before we got him, we never had a problem with him bucking, and he seemed to be quite a willing horse who needed a good deal of schooling.

We have had problems with him napping, both in the school and hacking out, but he was well-behaved for the most part when hacking out with others (we did get an occasional buck, but only really one or two). We all (myself, my dad and my step-mother) spend a lot of time with him on an evening, grooming, chatting and cuddling, and he now trots straight to the gate when we arrive (something he never did for his previous owner).

The problem now is that he will simply stop dead in the middle of the school, by the gate, on the way back to his field, it doesn't matter where, and refuse to walk on. We get what we call "The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy", where he steps back, then to the side, swings his head and then spins around on the spot, which was annoying enough by itself. In the last week, he's started to top this off with bucking. Fortunately, he's only had me off once, and I managed to land on my feet, but my dad has been thrown twice in the outdoor school now, and it has severely knocked his confidence. I've also got whiplash today from last night's bucking display, and probably won't be able to ride for a week or so. Riding has become a battle, and I don't dare ask him to do anything but walk now, so we wind up spending twenty minutes in the school walking around, circling, doing serpentines, but at any point he may simply stop, then begin to buck when we ask him to walk on.

I've arranged for the vet to come and see him tonight and check his back, and will get all his tack checked as well, to make sure it's not pain making him behave this way. To be honest, I think it's simply stubbornness - he doesn't want to work, because his previous owner pretty much left him to his own devices, and when he bucked with her, he got away with it, and just got turned out again. I'm getting a lunging kit and will have a go at lunging (it's been many years, so I'll get a professional to remind me how to do it), but his last owner says he won't lunge, because he was driven a lot as a youngster.

He's only seven, and I'm pretty confident that with patience and perserverance we can get over this, but I don't really know where to start. I have a physical disability as well (I suffer with Hypermobility Syndrome, HMS, which is a connective tissue disorder), and I find riding painful enough without having to cope with whiplash and possibly getting bucked off on top of it. My dad is now worried to ride him as every time he's ridden this week, he's ended up being thrown.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

[Jessey]

It does sound like he's testing the boundries, Lunging will be good because you can make him work after a buck without the worry of getting thrown, he may not know how to lunge but he will be able to, you could also try long lining him.

I would probably say that it would benifit you all to get an instructor in to help for a few weeks, maybe see if the instructor would school him a couple of times for you, just to see how far he will push the boundries and get some help with lunging/long lining and then maybe a couple of lessons to help with everyones confidence :D

Getting him checked physically first is a good plan though.

J x

[helenc]

Firstly - you are doing the right thing by getting him checked over. I wouldn't stop at just the vet - I'd have a chiro, a physio, dentist etc as well as a qualified saddler to make sure his saddle fits OK.

You really need to be 100% certain that there is nothing physically wrong before you proceed any further otherwise it is unfair on your horse & you will never really be able to get to the bottom of it.

If he hasn't been worked very much by his previous owner then he could have a few aches & pains from his new workload too so you need to bear that in mind.

Once you've ruled out physical stuff you can start working on his mental attitude. Sounds to me like his bucking is a form of napping rather than just bucks - he doesn't want to do something, you try to make him & he bucks - my horse has been known to do this too but he rears instead of bucking.

The difficult thing is to work out WHY they are napping - if he is inexperienced then he could be confused with what you are asking for. You need to be ultra precise with your aids & keep him listening all of the time, do plenty of changes of rein & keep things interesting for him. Ignore his bad behaviour & praise him (lots) for his good behaviour!

[Zingy]

Echo Helenc on the physio/ saddler/ dentist as these symptoms can so often be pain related and only when you've ruled absolutely all of that out should you go with anything else.

A few more thoughts,

could you try long reining rather than lunging if he's used to being driven? Though to be honest I can't see why driving would mean he wouldn't lunge.

if the bucking comes after napping, what happens if you don't react to the napping? By that I mean no aids at all rather than trying to ride through it which I guess you're doing now. If he stops (the start of napping), let him stop for a while. But he has to work so try and get him to stand in a contact with a reasonable outline if you can (you might have to wait a few minutes with literally no aids at first to let him stop wiggling. Sometimes they expect the pressure of being asked to work again so much that they start to look for it - my horse can do high speed reversing and twizzing around trying to get me to give an aid so he can flip because he's reached a pressure point. So I can't let him find one - no leg, no reins, no movement at all. Once he can't find pressure, he stops because he's confused. At that point I can ask for something without him flipping out.). Then once he's been settled and is accepting a contact, flex left and right. Sometimes easing the pressure off and asking for something different works - it's not necessarily giving up and letting them have their own way, but there's more than 1 way to skin a cat as they say. Basically you're saying he can stand still, but he does it on your terms. Plus you also distract him by asking him to do something - it doesn't involve moving legs so there's nothing to nap at. Once he's listening again, try moving but straight onto a small circle so you take him away from the problem area at first, then come back to it.

I'd be tempted to do lots of groundwork as well, particularly focussing on getting him to move sideways - once you're on board you can maybe use that to kick start movement again when he does nap, but there's less of a fight because you've removed the forward element. But you are proving you can control all 4 legs in both directions, and you're distracting him which helps put you back in control again.

Another thing to try is clicker training. Once you've taught the basic click means food, you can still do it when ridden. When he's working nicely forward, click to reward the behaviour, stop and feed a treat (you should be able to do this by leaning down and letting him twist his head round). It does have the disadvantage that the work will be very stop/ start for a while, especially as at first you will have to reward fairly short periods of work, but once he's decided work is good, you can lengthen it. Aim being that you reward before he starts napping and therefore you reduce it by positive reinforcement. Also at first the stop/ start might in a way help as you will actually be giving him an opportunity to nap and when he doesn't take advantage of it you know you're really getting somewhere.

[*Sez*]

The vet came out last night to do Jake's passport (his last owner "didn't get round to it"), microchip and second lot of heel-mite injections. While he was there I explained the bucking and asked him to look at Jake's back. He got a reaction when he applied pressure just below the withers on the off-side, so it looks as if it may be pain related. We're arranging for a saddler to come out and have a proper look, but have been told that they will phone back once they've checked possible appointment dates and it could be a few days before there's a slot free :rolleyes: . The vet also looked at his teeth (he does dentistry as well) and said there was nothing wrong there.

If we were to lunge him or long-rein him in the meantime, would this also hurt (assuming that this reaction the vet got is the cause of Jake's bucking)? Am I best off letting him rest until the saddler has been out, or will light exercise be beneficial?

[*Sez*]

Got a call to say the saddler can't come out for two weeks! :mad: So in the meantime, it looks like it'll be a lot of "me on the ground" work!

[*Sez*]

I've managed to get a saddler to come out this evening! :D So fingers crossed the saddle will be the problem, rather than Jake just being a naughty wotsit! :rolleyes:

[helenc]

Hope the saddler can help you to sort it out.

What treatment has the vet suggested? Are you going to get a specialist out to work through his back problem? You need to get that cleared up as well as getting a correctly fitting saddle

[Gill]

Hello, I've sent you a pm of an excellent local back person. Hope it helps to sort your problems.

[mayS]

If you totally rule out pain causing the problem, then I'd definitely call a trainer. If it were me, I'd let the trainer deal ride him for the first few weeks until she's sorted out the napping and bucking problems. Having him toss you and your father is only reinforcing to him he can get his way... and it's not worth the risk to you.

Please post again when you find out anything. Best of luck!

[*Sez*]

The saddler came out, did loads of measurements, and felt around Jake's back. He also opened my saddle up, and had a good look at all of his tack before putting the pressure mapping pad on under my saddle - then the scary part: I had to ride for fifteen minutes! :eek: As both the schools were being used (and he's even more of a difficulty when other horses are around), I ended up riding him around the yard and up and down a few bridleways. Didn't dare ask him to canter. A few weeks ago, I was fine to canter him, but my confidence has totally plummetted, but I did get a sensible trot out of him. Unfortunately, he started napping halfway along a bridlepath, and started bucking and rearing even though my stepmother was walking alongside us. Lucky for me, I managed to stay in the saddle! :D

The saddler said that the gullet is a bit small for him, but that what's in his saddle is the biggest it goes to, and while there are a few very expensive options out there, that he didn't think it would cause him to buck. Also the pressure map was perfect - no points of extreme pressure at all. So in his opinion, Jake's just being "a character" and is either simply a git, or is testing his boundaries. He did, however, note that one of the screw that holds the gullet in place was a bit loose, and could have been putting pressure (incidentally, right where the vet found his "sore spot") on his back, so that was tightened up, and I was told to give him the weekend off to get over it.

I've arranged for a dressage instructor to come out on Wednesday and give us a lesson. She came highly recommended and is well-qualified and insured, but is on crutches at the moment, so it's highly unlikely that she'll be able to sort him out from on his back! Should make a huge difference just having someone on the ground, though, and Jake will finally get the idea that I mean business. Am prepared to go flying through the air at least once, and have told OH to be on standby with my wheelchair and a few icepacks (and a load of my painkillers) just incase!

Wish me luck - as long as I'm not in hospital after this lesson, I'll post and let you know how it goes! :rolleyes:

[galadriel]

He did, however, note that one of the screw that holds the gullet in place was a bit loose, and could have been putting pressure

Actually, this causes the tree to act like it's cracked. That's a pretty major problem, not a minor one. That can certainly cause all sorts of ridiculous behavior on the part of the horse, with valid cause! It's exceptionally uncomfortable, possibly as much as seriously painful.

I would not, by the way, settle for "it's a little too narrow but it's probably not an issue." A little too narrow is certainly uncomfortable for the horse; consider a shoe that's a little too narrow--now consider that narrowness digging into your back, next to your spine and shoulderblades. "A little" is too much.

You probably don't want to try this without some way to keep it even and symmetrical, but I've known people to take the widest size gullet and "adjust" them (one person with a sledgehammer).

[Eli_Jay]

It sounds to me like its a definitely possibility he's testing you - especially as he's still a new horse, and you wrote somewhere he needs alot of schooling?
However, definitely get him checked over.
There's a difference between a high spirited/excited buck and an 'ouch!' buck.
My gelding does both! He's excited bucks are generally accompanied by a spin and a leap, and he settles down if you turn him in a circle or give him a smack. These bucks are very easy to sit, because he's a sweet natured horse and he isn't trying to get anybody off.
His 'Ouch!' bucks occur when his saddle slips too far back, and they are far 'meaner' bucks that are designed to get a message across. these bucks have been known to unseat me, but i always fix his saddle if he starts 'ouch' bucking and then he settles down and behaves.
I've had Cheque checked out by physio, bowens therapist, vet and a few riding instructors and mostly he's a very good boy.
However, when i know the bucking has no real cause, i generally growl at him and give him a flick with the whip (not hard or painful, just so he knows its not on) and that settles him.
It could be a matter of you simply giving him one good whack on the shoulder when he starts that rubbish (if you get the all clear and know he's not in pain) because sometimes thats enough for them to change their tune.

[*Sez*]

Thanks Galadriel and Eli Jay for your responses. :)

I'm quite keen to try the idea of bending a gullet into the right shape for his back - my mum is head of the Design Tech department at a private school, so should have the tools in the metal shop to make me a gullet that is even. However, Galadriel, do you know if anyone tha's tried this has had any adverse effects? I'm a bit concerned that, as this is the widest they do, perhaps in tests a wider gullet has damaged the saddle in the some way. Otherwise, wouldn't they offer a wide gullet for heftier horses? Or do you think it may simply be to do with marketing, in that there may not be enough people needing it to warrent making and selling a wider one?

I've given Jake a full four days off work (I'll admit it's partly out of my fear of riding him :o ), and I have the instructor coming out tonight, so we'll see what's what. The loose screw has been tightened so hopefully, if that was the problem, it will be sorted out now and he won't be so tender. I had a good "poke" (my technical term :rolleyes: . It was less of a poke, and more applying pressure with the flat of my palm, I suppose) at his withers last night when I was grooming, and certainly didn't get the same reaction the vet got last week. I've also tried some Reki, with my Reki Master, over any possible sore points on his back, and he's seemed a lot calmer since. May just be to do with the "chilling out effect", rather than helping with any pain.

Eli Jay, what length crop do you use? I've tried both my schooling whip and my jumping crop and giving him a quick tap when he bucks, but it just makes him buck more :rolleyes: . I've thought about selling tickets and billing us as a rodeo act. Just wondered whether you found a tap on the shoulder with a short whip, or behind the leg with a long whip was more effective. Even tried smacking my boot for the noise, but I almost ended up on the floor for the effort!

I'll let you know how my lesson goes this evening. It'll be the first one I've had in over a year, so I hope she's not too cruel about my position and riding technique! :D

[galadriel]

The difficulty with using an even wider gullet is that the panels do not also change. The gullet is only the first few inches of the saddle; there's quite a lot of the saddle that doesn't change when the gullet does.

A horse who needs a gullet wider than the standard Wintec can handle usually needs a saddle with wider panels, too. (Wintec does now make a saddle like that, called the WIDE, s opposed to their standard saddles. You haven't specified though, so I'm not sure if you're using a Wintec.)

But if the rest of your saddle fits reasonably well, then in your shoes, I would probably make the attempt to get the gullet wider. A gullet that's too narrow really is a significant problem, no matter what the saddler told you.

If it doesn't seem like it would work that way, then the saddle really needs replacing. You shouldn't settle for halfway fitting--especially not with a horse who's already let you know that he doesn't approve of fitting problems.

[*Sez*]

Thanks, Galadriel. It's a Wintec Cair, and I assume it's standard, because it doesn't have anything on the info that came with it to say "wide". I'll have a look into it and see what I can get. Would far rather have a comfortable boy than an unhappy one :D .

My lesson went really well. The instructor and I agreed that I'll have a few fifteen minute lessons a week to start with, as Jake is very unfit and I'm struggling with spending time in the saddle.

As soon as I mounted and asked him to move onto the track, the rodeo began :rolleyes: . He managed to get me off, but luckily I managed an "emergency dismount" when I realised I had no chance of staying on and managed to land on my feet :D .

Once he realised I meant business, he walked on but started poking his nose towards the fence and paying more attention to the horses on the other side, but we did lots of "opening of hands and hips" to make him move into the space and walk where I wanted him to.

The rest of the lesson was spent walking, and attempting to trot twenty and ten meter circles, changing the rein and hanging on when he did his bronco impressions. He never just bucks once either, he crabs his back up, twists to the side and bucks again, three or four times in a row! But by the end of the fifteen minutes, I managed to get him trotting a few strides, caught him starting to buck and pushed him on, and actually got a really nice trot out of him to finish on :) .

I got a lot of feedback too, which I think is always a sign of a good instructor. Apparently I'm too soft with my hands and legs, which would be fine on a nicely schooled horse or for training a youngster, but I need to be firmer with my "demon from the deep". There were lots of cries of "leg, leg, leg - come on, KICK him!" when he started napping and me squeaking "I AM kicking him!" (well, I was tapping firmer!). I also didn't carry my crop on the grounds that if I just need to be firmer with him when I ask, there should be no need for it, and I have to slow him from a trot before he does it himself so he thinks it was my idea, not his!

So I've got loads to think about and chew over. I'm going to give us both a rest tonight (I couldn't sleep last night with the pain and had to use the wheelchair to get to work today, but I'm nothing if not determined!), and I think Jake needs to have the lesson sink in ready for our next fifteen minutes on Friday.

Sorry for the long post, but last night was a major boost to my confidence and for the first time since we paid for Jacob (because he always went nicely before money exchanged hands!) I think he could really work out and be a lovely horse to ride with some effort put in. :D :D

[*Sez*]

Am feeling dead chuffed today :D :D

We had another lesson this afternoon and Jake didn't buck once. We had a bit of a nap by the gate, but kept pushing him on. I'm still intending to buy him a Wintec Wide saddle, but the problem was...*drumroll please* that damn Dutch gag!

He's always been ridden in a Dutch gag with his reins on the second ring, which I hate. I think he's too young and too poorly schooled to need such a harsh bit, and kept trying to change it to my eggbutt snaffle. My dad kept grumping and making me change it back because "he obviously needs it if that's what he's got" and "he's too strong to ride without it" :rolleyes: .

Tonight my instructor said exactly what I was thinking - the bit is to compensate for bad schooling, so she put it on the snaffle ring, and it was like someone had simply pulled my "devil" from under me, and stuck me on a willing, forward going horse! :D So I'm going to get him a French link snaffle from Carla's tack shop (with discount of course, as I'm her pupil!), and will ride him for my dad when he comes back from Wales next week to prove my point.

Wish I had more strength to stick by my convictions.

[augermoon]

That sounds like a great improvement - well done. I bet you are both feeling much happier now.

You often find thats the way with horse - your initial gut instinct is generally right. It takes years to have the confidence to stick to your convictions, so I wouln't feel bad at all about swaying slightly after only a few weeks. The great thing is that you were right all along, and your instructor merely confirmed what you already knew.

Well done XXXX

[galadriel]

Wish I had more strength to stick by my convictions.

You'll get there. It's hard when you're up against someone who's acting dead certain, and you're impressionable. The more you realize that your judgement is pretty good, the more faith you'll have in it :)

SO nice to hear that he's stopped bucking for you.