Improving a terrible topline

[horsecrazychick]

:rolleyes: First off- how much does the horse's topline matter in lower dressage levels?(and I mean LOW, like walk/trot and training level) I would really like to do some local CTs with my pony but I don't know how she'll do in dressage. I'd like to do training level, as I've never been able to do anything higher than walk/trot yet. (usually due to the lack of a horse that will cooperate) :D

Now, how should I go about trying to get my horse rounder? Even when she is moving at a working trot, bending nicely, getting her back legs under her and softening her poll, her head remains up in the air like a giraffe. I've tried driving her with my seat and legs, then asking very gently with the inside rein, but her neck doesn't change. She's also built up a bit of muscle on the bottom of her neck and NONE at all on the top, making her look like she will have an ewe neck if she gets any worse. I don't think her natural conformation is helping me out any. I've had her for atleast two years I think and haven't seen much/any improvement. When free walking, she is just happy to march along with her nose in the air and never even really tries to strech down. She has a soft mouth and can be sensitive to your legs if she's in the mood. :rolleyes: I know most people are against it, but would some sort of martingale do her any good, or atleast convince her to hold her head a little lower so we have something to build on? I tried side-reins the other day while lunging her just to see what she would think of them and she couldn't have cared less.
P.S. Because I also do trail riding, jumping, barrel racing, etc. I don't /consistently/ ask her to stretch her topline- is that the problem?

[jUmPingIsLifE]

how is your horses saddle fit?

if its perhaps just a little off and not quite right it would prevent your horse from rounding his back. or perhaps the bit makes him mad so he puts his head sky high. these are things to check first.

[horsecrazychick]

Well when I ride english she is ridden in a plain old snaffle- nothing harsh and I'm not an expert so her saddle might not fit correctly, but it seems to fit well to me. And she also does this when I ride her bareback in a halter, so I don't think it's the tack. I don't have the money to have her back like X-rayed or anything but she gets her teeth done regularly and isn't showing any lameness. Now that I think of it though, she will jump about 6 inches higher bareback so maybe it's the saddle. I've always thought it was because my position is so much better bareback. I have a saddle with an adjustable gullet an recently switched from med. wide to regular when she lost a little weight. (my sister's mean old grouchy horse was stealing her hay) I really don't think a narrow gullet would fit.

[Jorose90]

My horse used to be exactly the same as you have described. Firstly jumping is not harming your horses topline at all - if anything it is helping with the horses rear strength and helping build muscle to work throught the back. I jump my horse alot and it helped him with his flat. They say flat helps with jumping - but jumping definitely helps with flat aswell..

Anyway as i was saying! Definitely try and open your hands as much as possible because then you have more of a contact with your horse. KEEP USING YOUR LEGS - even if he starts to come round. I know its not the the "classic" way to ride keeping your hands open and wide - but my dressage trainer taught it to me and said it was absolutely fine - at least until your horse has built up enough muscle of topline to hold himself there more - and THEN you can start to uppen (is that word??!! haha) and lighten your hands - if ya get what im saying at all! It definitely helped 1000000% with my horse he now can hold himself and his contact has lightened incredibly - but each horse reacts differently to different aids so just experiment and see what works.

x x x

[horsecrazychick]

Yeah, I've heard of two very different approaches to this. The one that you mentioned, where you encourage the horse to round his frame by keeping your hands low and soft(BTW, I've never heard the word uppen! lol :p ) and then I've also heard of doing quite the opposite- every time the horse raises its head and becomes tense you make it uncomfortable for them and then when they finally do soften up and lower their head you relax and lower your hands so that doing what is right is confortable for them. However Jazzy never even TRIES to round herself, she just seems more comfortable with her nose in the air(even in the pasture or on the lunge). Maybe it's just because she's so stubborn.

[Jorose90]

No trustttt me my horse was 10000% the same! no chance he'd everrr lighten or go round!! but have low wide hands and a STRONG contact - he will honestly have no choice but to give! just try it! it worked in bout 10 mins with me and hes never gone back - CRAZY. I tried a bungee - it worked when it was on but as soon as i took it off he threw his head in the ait - wouldnt recommend it. I use a martingale - PERSONALLY (anyone feel free to argue with me) i dont think they are harsh at alll if attached correctly! It just means that they cant throw their head above the vertical point so you donlt loose all control - because once their head is up there - they are a hell of alot stronger than you. The horses dont even fight the martingale. (running martingale - i wouldnt use a standing one on my horse - but it depends on the situation)

xxx

[horsecrazychick]

Ok I'll make sure I try that today and see how she does. She does tend to back off of a strong contact but who knows. Did the martingale help your horse a lot? I might look into one as well.... I borrowed a german martingale form my trainer once since she suggested it and it really seemed to help my other horse. I don't know what type of martingale would help Jazzy though, because I honestly don't know the difference. They confuse me. ^^ Is the running martingale the kind you can jump in? And is it allowed in shows? thanks!

[Jorose90]

Ye they can jump in them - it stops them throwing their head too high (above horizontal) which is incredibly useful - cos wen its above there they become v. strong.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/jorose90/uhoh.bmp

can you see that properly? im trying to find a better pic....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/jorose90/takeoff.jpg

AH that ones good! see how it just stops him throwing his head up too high - thats before he built up topline - SUCH A BEAST! would keep his head there and refuse. But definitely try opening and widening ** hands cos he ended up like this - BAD PIC!!! EXCUSE THE POSITION! WAS IN AN ARGUMENT WITH HIM!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/jorose90/position.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/jorose90/Img_0127.jpg

its slack when theyre not using it.... (below)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/jorose90/Img_0613.jpg
CLoser pic of it below
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/jorose90/Img_0624.jpg

[horsecrazychick]

Thanks that really helps. I'll let you know how she does and see if I can borrow a martingale from my friend. BTW, your horse is really cute. I love his white nose!

[Cochise]

In my opinion, from what I have seen of your lovely horse, that you have a nice open partnership for a start.
I would actually think more of what you say by "topline" by encouraging your horse to stretch down, and seek the bit than strap contraptions on him. You can ask your horse to stretch his head and neck down and use his body, and relax forward even while out on a trail ride. Don't worry about the "coming on the bit" thing yet. Do a search on "martingales" and "draw reins" on NR here and see the interesting things others have to say about them. It's enlightening to say the least.
Building muscle is all about working them and stretching them, and the more relaxed it is, the better. :)

[horsecrazychick]

Thanx Jorose!!!!! I think what you said is REALLY helping. I haven't found a martingale yet, but now I think I'll just forget the martingale. Although Jazzy does throw her head way up when she's excited or mad, her mouth always stays very soft and she never actually leans against or pulls on the bit. I tried what you said with the steady contact, low and wide hands and she responded very well. Now she doesn't have ANY muscle on the top of her neck so it still looks pretty bad, but look at these pics and tell me what you think. I'm pretty sure it's working because all of her gaits were instantly smoother and her canter wasn't hurried and bumpy like it usually is. Now she's not moving off of my leg very well in these pics, but that's because it took my mom like an hour to get down to the arena and take some pics, by which time Jazzy was hot and bored. So although she doesn't have a beautifully arched neck, she seems to be relaxing and I actually felt some solid contact in the reins. (BTW, the braids are just to keep her cooler- so no laughing at the funny braids I made!) Let me know what you guys think is going through her brain- does it have anything to do with rounding or coming on the bit?
http://www.geocities.com/iluvhersheyskiss/jazzy1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/iluvhersheyskiss/jazzy2.jpg
In this one she is actually reaching for the bit when I gave her a loose rein- something I can't remember her having ever done before!
http://www.geocities.com/iluvhersheyskiss/jazzy3.jpg
LOL I think we both have your eyes closed!! :p
http://www.geocities.com/iluvhersheyskiss/jazzy4.jpg

[Bay Mare]

but have low wide hands and a STRONG contact - he will honestly have no choice but to give! just try it! it worked in bout 10 mins with me and hes never gone back - CRAZY.

I wouldn't recommend that anyone use a STRONG contact to try and force a horse into stretching down. Consistent, yes, strong, no. I also have an issue with dropping your hands right down as, yes, they drop their heads but it doesn't make them work properly ie from behind! If anything it gives a false outline which in the long run is counter productive.

The way that I do it with my dressage trainer is to make sure that she's working from behind and to give her a consistent contact. It may take longer than other methods but it makes them work correctly which means that you get the correct muscles building, they don't become wary of the bit (mine would probably rear and would certainly fight you if you tried a strong contact) and, ultimately will work correctly.

I don't have an issue with martingales when they're used for a specific reason (hacking out, jumping etc) but I wouldn't use them to try and solve a schooling problem because they don't.

[Kanuma]

from those pics i would say you need too get her working more from behind because in the trot picture she is not tracking up properly and is not rounding her back completely.
i realy would recommend you get a professional saddle fitter to check her saddle, they dont cost much and there is an awful lot more to saddle fitting then just the gullet. stan my connemara wont work at all when his saddle doesnt fit.
also check she is confortable in her snaffle as alot of horses dont like the nutcracker action of them and raise thier heads to avoid it, if this is the case then a frech link or something similar is a good option.
a martingale should only be used to prevent a horse getting its head above the angle of control.
in your second pic it looks like she is thinking about seakinbg the contact, but in order for her to seak it there has to be one, there is a differance between a long rein and a loose rein and a contact can be maitained with the long rein
giveing the horse no option but to bend does NOT promote a proper outline also whilst your jumping is not doing any harm at all, i would not jump her before a serious schooling session as they tend to get a bit excited,
jumping does not help flatwork, pole work does in some cases but not jumping. but flat work definately helps with jumping, most of the top showjumpers, can also do a fairly deacent dressage test and if you watch them, flying changes whilst doing a course are normal, you cant do flying changes on command without alot of flatwork. a steady gentle contact will encourage her to and low hands will give her the extra help in figureing out what you want, but they are not good rideing and she might become dependant on you holding her head for her! you can do it to help at the start but you must raise your hands when she gets the idea

[cvb]

:rolleyes: First off- how much does the horse's topline matter in lower dressage levels?(and I mean LOW, like walk/trot and training level) I would really like to do some local CTs with my pony but I don't know how she'll do in dressage. I'd like to do training level, as I've never been able to do anything higher than walk/trot yet. (usually due to the lack of a horse that will cooperate) :D

They are not marking your horse's confirmation, just how they perform the movement. So you might get some associated comments e.g. if the rhythm is uneven, length of stride uneven, horse showing resistance etc. But it won't be directly to do with muscle etc.

Now, how should I go about trying to get my horse rounder? Even when she is moving at a working trot, bending nicely, getting her back legs under her and softening her poll, her head remains up in the air like a giraffe. I've tried driving her with my seat and legs, then asking very gently with the inside rein, but her neck doesn't change. She's also built up a bit of muscle on the bottom of her neck and NONE at all on the top, making her look like she will have an ewe neck if she gets any worse. I don't think her natural conformation is helping me out any. I've had her for atleast two years I think and haven't seen much/any improvement. When free walking, she is just happy to march along with her nose in the air and never even really tries to strech down. She has a soft mouth and can be sensitive to your legs if she's in the mood. :rolleyes: I know most people are against it, but would some sort of martingale do her any good, or atleast convince her to hold her head a little lower so we have something to build on? I tried side-reins the other day while lunging her just to see what she would think of them and she couldn't have cared less.
P.S. Because I also do trail riding, jumping, barrel racing, etc. I don't /consistently/ ask her to stretch her topline- is that the problem?

As has been said, jumping etc won't adversely affect the topline - but I am concerned that you say that as a result you don't "consistently ask her to stretch her topline"... why not ? For a horse to jump effectively they need to use their back and abdominal muscles and they can't do that properly if they are all srunched up...

I'd personally like to start (after the saddle checks, and knowing there is no physical issue to stop her) with stretching her out a bit. But I wouldn't just want her to flop as a result ;) so I might use raised ground poles (raise alternate ends) to help her work on abdominal and back muscles and stretch out a little. You can do this in ground work as well as ridden...

EDIT: just to add. As you develop her topline, she should also improve in the quarters to match it, so she becomes a "balanced" horse.