Anyone had any bad experiences with Parelli?

[Tiber]

I've just decided to go back to 'traditional' style riding after a year working on Parelli stuff which left me and my pony getting more and more frustrated and bored.

I'd just like to know if anyone else has had the same thing happen to them?

PS. Please don't tell me I'm bad for giving up with it and changing my training methods. :o

[katieB]

I tried Parelli and stopped too, I diont get very far because I found it difficult working with such a strong willed horse. Ellie got frustrated too but ive always been sure that was down to me than her. How far did you get? I barely got past the games and never really managed sideways at all, it just ended up being a chore when the reason I started it was to have fun.

[Tiber]

I did all the games and half of the riding part, but that is where we were getting stuck. We have also had saddle problems, which haven't helped. It was turning into a chore, rather than fun (which is of course why I pay out huge amounts of money to keep her - as my OH keeps reminding me! :o ).

Glad I'm not the only one!

How are you doing now?

[NuttyMare]

Ive never been too keen on Parelli myself. This is just my opinion, but on the DVDs the horses dont seem to be enjoying themselves at all. I'm also not sure about the whole "this will solve all your problems" theory about it.

[Adk_Katie]

Hi Tiber, I have been reading a few of your posts and it seems like we have pretty similar stories. Here’s mine…about a year ago I saw a Parelli clinic and I thought it was awesome. I was already doing some horse shopping and I decided to look for one who I thought would be good for me to go through the Levels program with. I ended up with a very loveable, energetic and curious little pony mare. She was very green, had been saddled and bridled but never ridden. We started with the new level one package and although she could play the games pretty well her attitude was getting worse. She didn’t like me to touch her with my hands, but I could with the carrot stick when before she loved to be petted. So I stopped using exclusively Parelli methods and just did what worked for me. I read a lot about different methods and took little bits of each. I am kind and firm with her and she has come such a long way. This spring I backed her and started her under saddle training. She is glad to see me everyday now! I still use some Parelli stuff with her and the system taught me a lot about communication with horses but I’m not so attached to the brand name anymore. So, I hope you find something that works and is fun for you and your pony. Just keep looking! Good luck! :)

[Colorado Sunset]

I think that there is no definate way to approach any and every horse in the same way. Every horse is different, as is every person. Horses have different roles within their herd, so some are more dominent, others more submissive and i guess you have to take this into account when doing any sort of training, whether more traditional or more "natural horsemanship"-like.

Also, I think it depends on who is working with the horse, what they prefer and how their personality affects the way they work with their horses. (I am by no means saying one way is right, another is wrong).

I think the basis of parelli (to take the example given) is a good one to start from, that there should be a partnership between rider and horse, and that some groundwork should be established. However, I think different methods work for different partnerships, and instead of taking one method as a definative set of rules, you should take what works best for you.

(woh, brain isnt working in english at the mo, am in poland, hope this makes sense!!)

Jo

[katefarmer]

Hi Tiber!

I think Jo makes some good points - it's a very individual thing.

I'd say about a third of people coming to me with problem horses are ex-Parelli. Either they found Parelli didn't solve their problems, or problems started when they started Parelli-ing. (The bulk of problems that start with Parelli are loading problems. I've had stacks of horses that loaded fine until they started trying to do it Parelli style, then the horse never went in again! :rolleyes: Luckily this is usually to do with trying to load the horse from outside the trailer before it is ready - and not hard to fix!)

If you find it's not for you, I don't think it's bad - it just wasn't right for you. It's a "one size fits all" system - and of course, one size doesn't fit all. Parelli himself is a great horseman - but he's made a big thing of creating a programme "so simple even adults can do it". In my opinion, he's over simplified it - horses just aren't that simple and uniform. However, far less people will buy something if they think they're going to have put in a lot of effort, learning, concentration and hard work into it.

Nuttymare and Adk_Katie make good points too - Parelli (or rather the Parelli Programme) pays very little attention to the ATTITUDE - which for me is absolutely basic and essential. This seems to go right through all levels - I've seen demos of horses doing the most amazing things - but their attitude while doing it is often appalling. This isn't hard to correct - but it's not "in the programme" - so noone does it.

I think the thing to remember is that Parelli is just one "brand" and one formulation and is by no means the only way or definitive of NH philosophy.

The underlying principles of NH are very good - that you work to understand the horse's instinctive behaviour both as an individual and as a herd member, and its own learning system, and use these as the basis of your training. From this you move on to recognising the finer ways horses communicate amongst eachother - how they "feel" an attitude or energy, and learning to be aware of the way your body language affects the horse. (I don't just mean the really obvious things like how you stand etc, but the much more subtle things - where you look, your breathing, your "inner energy", your awareness of the feet etc.) This is the real fun stuff, I think - and that's when you get huge changes in the horse's perfomance.

All this does come in Parelli eventually - but you do a lot of carrot sick waving before you get there. We start on this straight off in level 1.

So, what I mean is, just because Parelli doesn't work for you, don't dismiss NH principles, or think that it's just a choice between "traditional" or "Parelli". I think what has gone wrong in a lot of "traditional" is that it has become very mechanical and puts a lot of focus on the physical and not much on the mental attitude. In some ways, the same criticism can be levelled at Parelli, especially in the early stages - to the extent that "Parelli" seems to be becoming a discipline in itself, not a means to an end.

There are people and approaches out there that cut out the "packaging" and get straight into the horse's mind - this might be more for you and offer a valuable supplement to your traditional riding! :)

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Skib]

You have had some very knowledgeable replies.
I went to a Leslie Desmond clinic last Spring where (I was told) many of the things she did were designed to correct habits that arose from Parelli work, or to fill in gaps left by Parelli training. Some of these were connected to the use and the type of the lead rope. If anyone else was there, perhaps they could say more.
The problem with Parelli and any other single form of horse drill including Monty Roberts join up, is that people may embark on it thinking it perfect. And then when it doesnt work for them and their particular horse, think it is their fault and they have failed.
Whereas each system has its own shortcomings, creates unwanted habits and leaves gaps. And the more rigourous a system (as Parelli is) the more evident its shortcomings.
New systems always grow to met a need created by the inadequacies of a previous method, including traditonal. Then as time goes by, professionals begin to notice problems arising from that new system. So Kate's post is very useful, being quite specific. On loading and attitude. And suggesting looking at other books for improving communication.
But forgive yourself and Parelli. Even "traditional" changes. And ten years from now we will all have moved on again.

[Tiber]

Thanks Jo, Kate and Skib,

You've made me feel loads better about it! I know it has done some good things for us but I just don't think it's for us in the long run.

Thanks,

Jude.

:) :) :)

[michelle c]

i was doing alot better doing parelli than traditional methods and we did get good results, untill the trailer loading and thats where we had great problems and got stuck for months!!!!! i now am doing clicker training with the natural animal centre and meg is soooooooo enthusiastic to do any thing and i am working on it so she will load doing it the clicker way, i havnt started yet because there are still some tasks to do but we are now on a new fantastic journey and loving it all the way!!!! :D

[chalon1000]

I have tried the Parelli methods too...but I barely got into it. I got to the part (lesson three i think) where you tap the lead with the carrot stick and it is supposed to make the horse go backwards. I tried this, but no matter what, my horse kept coming FORWARDS. I got frustrated at her until I realised she was doing what she thought she was supposed to do. The tapping was pulling the rope, so she responded to the pull and walked forwards.
So I gave up this particular activity and tried the next one, which was tapping the ground gradually closer to the horse's hindquarters, and they were supposed to walk sideways. When this didn't wokr either, I thought hard about it, and realised this was doing a very dumb thing; teaching horses to move away from something on the ground. Imagine how this would be in a situation with a car or something moving towards the horse!
I was glad for my horse doing what she did. Doing what she was meant to do! I have since stowed my $200 Parelli Partnership pack in the cupboard, and $100 worth of Carrot Stick and Savvy String in the shed. I haven't used them since that day.
I was so shocked. Parelli methods sound so great, until you put them into practise and realise that they are the opposite of what's right!

[Naturally]

Nuttymare and Adk_Katie make good points too - Parelli (or rather the Parelli Programme) pays very little attention to the ATTITUDE - which for me is absolutely basic and essential. This seems to go right through all levels - I've seen demos of horses doing the most amazing things - but their attitude while doing it is often appalling. This isn't hard to correct - but it's not "in the programme" - so noone does it


I disagree with much of what has been said here, but it is all personal opinions and experiences afterall.

But this paragraph in particular bothers me. It's actually very untrue and quite the opposite is what is taught. To pass L2 assessment tasks the horse must have a positive response (attitude) to the humans suggestions/requests. This is taken right through the programme. I know a lady who spent 12 months on her "overall picture"... the final assessment task of L3 because her horse was not showing a positive response. Turns out the horse (unkown at the time) had a twisted pelvis at the time of the assessment.

We often experience a bit of attitude out of our horses when we are playing. It's very natural and the same way they play in their own herd dynamics. But you don't get the same picture every time. Unless the horses in the scenario you were talking about had been assessed at L3 standard, they most likely weren't showing 100 positive attitude.... and even after L3, they are still horses, just being horses and forever challenging the leadership.

I don't want to start any wars, just pointing out a fact that was glaringly untrue.

Tiber good luck with your journey. PNH isn't for everyone, but good on you for looking for natural solutions. But I agree with KateFarmer. Don't think it's PNH or Traditional. There are plenty of options out there for you.

[Dales_Lover]

I'm sure if you do a search on Parelli in this part of the forum you'll find lots of posts on good and bad experiences with them :)

[ponylover88]

i ruined my horse by trying parelli on him. it looked really interesting but after parelli, i couldnt lunge my horse because he'd just turn and yeild. i also couldnt get on my horse because, again, he used to yeild.
where do i go from there.....back to the traditional methods because the games were confusing him and sometimes after the games we'd turn him out in the field and later he wouldnt come in for his dinner because it left him that worried and worked up.

[Naturally]

i ruined my horse by trying parelli on him. it looked really interesting but after parelli, i couldnt lunge my horse because he'd just turn and yeild. i also couldnt get on my horse because, again, he used to yeild.
where do i go from there.....back to the traditional methods because the games were confusing him and sometimes after the games we'd turn him out in the field and later he wouldnt come in for his dinner because it left him that worried and worked up.

I find these situations really sad and I'm sorry your experience was so negative.

The thing with the lunging is that when you progress with the program, you find the need for lunging unnecessary, so we people continue with the program, it becomes a non issue.

Some horses do get more difficult before things get better, and I guess a failing of the program "home study" situation that if when a student finds themsleves in this situation and they are unable to get to an instructor that often the student will give up. The crazy thing is that a lot of people then go to a "traditional" instructor and say "look what's happened", when, had they approached a PNH instructor the situation is easily rectified by giving the student a advice and some first hand experience. BUT PNH instructors aren't as widely spread as others, so therefore people tend to gravitate back to a "traditional" answer. Also people are quick to jump on the band wagon and say PNH doesn't work and therefore sets a negative mindset for others whenthey are experiencing difficulties with understanding the concepts and theories that are the foundation.

Having said that... there are other options if you're interested in training with a natural focus. And there are a many many instructors now who take the horse into consideration, far more than there used to be, that are not "natural" in the term associated with NH but have a nice approach to training.

Hope your situation has now improved Ponylover88 and your horse is back to his old "self".

[Jacquie]

[QUOTE=ponylover88]i ruined my horse by trying parelli on him. it looked really interesting but after parelli, i couldnt lunge my horse because he'd just turn and yeild[QUOTE]

Sorry this is short (got to go out in five minutes).
Basicly, when you get to the more advanced levels L2/L3 your horse learns to make upward and downward transitions, halt and even step backwards while on the circle.
The golden rule is don't expect to much to soon, 'take the time it takes and it takes less time'. :)

[katefarmer]

I disagree with much of what has been said here, but it is all personal opinions and experiences afterall.

But this paragraph in particular bothers me. It's actually very untrue and quite the opposite is what is taught. We often experience a bit of attitude out of our horses when we are playing. It's very natural and the same way they play in their own herd dynamics. But you don't get the same picture every time. Unless the horses in the scenario you were talking about had been assessed at L3 standard, they most likely weren't showing 100 positive attitude.... and even after L3, they are still horses, just being horses and forever challenging the leadership.

I don't want to start any wars, just pointing out a fact that was glaringly untrue.



Sorry, Naturally, but what I said was not "glaringly untrue". It may not have been your experience, but it has been mine. I have seen several shows here in Austria with Pat himself and with some of his top instructors from around the world. In one, Valentina, the disabled instructor from Germany was in the show. (Long since assessed at L3 I think!) She does some amazing things with her Friesans - but my heart was in my mouth the whole time. There was so much ear pinning, nose flipping and head shaking I thought they'd turn her wheelchair over. They didn't - but it did not show good attitude from the horses.

Another frequent participant in demos here is the chap from the Czech Republic, can't remember his name, but he usually works with a Haflinger. (Again, well past L3) Again - amazing stuff. He has it cantering sideways - very impressive. But the expression on the horse's face is AWFUL. When I first saw it I thought he'd lost it and the horse was winding up for a full speed, double barrelled kick at him - but again, it didn't - and all the ear pinning, tail wringing etc. seemed to be considered OK. I don't think it is.

In some of the demos (lower levels) they do the running backwards to bring the horse to them bit. Probably 50% of the horses pin their ears and poke their noses as they come to the owner. (ie they are not really being "drawn" -from their point of view they are pushing the person back.)

The games often do generate bad attitude as you say. I believe this is all to do with not noticing the footfalls - and whilst I don't agree with ignoring this, I take Parelli's point that he wants everything simple for the people at the beginning, and noticing what the feet are doing is too much for them to concentrate on. I think people can cope with this, he thinks they can't.

We teach people to notice the feet from day 1, and we don't get bad attitudes - or if we do, we consider this a problem and work to get good attitude before moving on. The attitude improvement comes when the horse sees you as a "higher ranking horse", - and when that is firmly established, challenges come very rarely with mares and geldings - obviously more often with stallions. The lead mare isn't challenged every day - why should we be? The other horses know she is the best one to look after the herd - they trust her to make the right decisions to keep the herd safe, and respect her judgement. No need or benefit to challenging her all the time.

However, given the priorities in the Parelli programme, I can see that at the lower levels, there might be some bad attitude that is often unavoidable. However, when many of the international show people are still getting bad attitude - I get the impression that it goes pretty much all the way up.

Now, I don't know what is said about attitude in the Parelli system - I'm sure it's talked about - but at the end of the day, either it isn't hitting the point or there isn't, in my view, sufficient emphasis on it.

You just have to read through the posts on this site to see the huge number of attitude problems people are having with the Parelli system. As I said before, it will work for some people and won't for others. It doesn't (and as a mass marketed product, couldn't possibly) cater for the wide variety of equine dispositions and characters out there - let alone the wide range of human dispositions and characters!

My point was, that the lack of emphasis on attitude is one factor that will mean some people have less success with it than they had hoped - and it doesn't mean they or the system are "bad" - it just doesn't work for them, but before rejecting the whole idea of NH, they would be well advised to shop around and look at some other approaches that may suit them better. I think we agreed on this anyway! :)

Hope that clears it up!

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Naturally]

Fair enough KateFarmer, and thank you for the lengthy, but obviously very genuine reply.

I find it interesting that on forums such as this one that there are so many negative comments, yet when you talk to students active in the program, i.e the ones that have sought answers WITHIN the program that they have always (myself included) been able to find the answers from our instructors.
It's when you start getting interference, either requested or not, that it all seems to fall apart.

But, I take your point about the attitude, curiously enough, it came up somewhere else today as well. It's not been my experience at all, infact quite the opposite as I said and for 99.9% (pardon the one other today) of the very large number of people doing PNH that I know.

Thanks for taking the time of your post.

[cvb]

I find it interesting that on forums such as this one that there are so many negative comments, yet when you talk to students active in the program, i.e the ones that have sought answers WITHIN the program that they have always (myself included) been able to find the answers from our instructors.

but surely then you are naturally (no pun intended) talking to the people who have had (and are still having) a positive experience, cos the ones that haven't vote with their feet and aren't IN the programme any more ?

(Or alternatively, seek an instructor and resolve it that way).

I don't think it is as simple as It's when you start getting interference, either requested or not, that it all seems to fall apart.

as a number of the cases quoted don't involve "interference".

LOL - just also need to comment that when I first read Kate's post about attitude, my first thought was that she meant the people not the horses :rolleyes: and I had to read some of the replies and then go back and reread kate's post when i realised my mistake :p After all, it seems to me that the horse's tend to already have "got it" and its just us lot catching up with them !

[katefarmer]

Yes, sorry about the length :o but I thought it best to give concrete examples in this case rather than make general statements! :D

I suppose the people who stay in the programme are finding the answers they want and need - and that's why they stay in the programme. For those who don't like the answers, or find they don't work for them, they just leave and try something else - so in a way, it's a self defining satisfied group. (That's not a criticism - just a logical inference - and will apply to any group with a progressive system like Parelli's - whether it's horses, dog training, flower arranging or anything else :D )

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[DavidH]

I think the problem with NH and traditional is one of time. People just don't seem to spend enough time with their horses to really get to know them these days or build their own understanding of how horses think and react.
Thus they need quick simple instructions and these methods were born.
I like to think of it as the instructions you get in flat pack furniture. We can all read them but how many can understand them. For that you need EXPERIENCE in general machanics. Same with horse! To interpret the instructions whether its NH or trad you have to have an understanding of the horses language. Blindly folloowing ABCD just doesn't work.
If more people would throw away the books, videos and DVD's and just spend some quality time with horse watching, listening and THINKING about whats happening for themselves the horse world would perhaps be a better place.
Modern traditional is no better or worse than NH. Traditional traditional required the person to have a FEEL for horses.

[Naturally]

but surely then you are naturally (no pun intended) talking to the people who have had (and are still having) a positive experience, cos the ones that haven't vote with their feet and aren't IN the programme any more

Yes CVB, that is I suppose my point. I have reached many many frustrations and always been able to have them answered. Despite criticisms of me and others like me who are solely dedicated to PNH, I do accept other systems as working also, but because I chose PNH and I have the opportunity to train with the likes of Dave Stuart, I find I get all the answers I need by asking questions and working on my own skills to find the answers.

But I do believe that too many people learn the 7 games and think they KNOW parelli, or watch a video and think they KNOW parelli, then feel qualified to report negatively on it. Then there are the people who have seen one or two students play with their horse and form an opinion on THAT. Hell, I went to Pony Club one day and saw cross tied ponies being bashed, crop yielding to stop, go and turn (all the same cue) Rib kicking, fist thumping and just damn dangerous horses with little kids on them, but I wouldn't dare go into a Pony Club forum and start telling them what I think of their horsemanship. So I get frustrated when Parelli is torn apart by people who don't understand it. :(

And Kate thank you for the concrete examples. It was nice to see an opinion based on something substantial. :)

[cvb]

Naturally - off-topic, but you may know the answer. has Haras de la Cense left parelli ? (I read it on a forum somewhere and was a bit surprised - don't ask me which forum/thread cos it was before the weekend and I don't remember !).

As you rightly say, I wou,d not wade in to comment about driving a horse simply cos I've read a few articles and helped someone out a few times. There is sooo much I don't know ! Similarly sidesaddle... done it a few times, just enough to know I don't know much :p Western - well there I'm learning but no where near what out active US members will know !

NH - well I've seen more than some and less than others. Seen it outside the UK (Sweden) where it is very different in profile and so on.

[Yann]

If more people would throw away the books, videos and DVD's and just spend some quality time with horse watching, listening and THINKING about whats happening for themselves the horse world would perhaps be a better place.

Well said. Most styles of training boil down to the same sorts of things however much they differentiate themselves for marketing or other purposes. After all there's only one horse and they're generally programmed to behave in a certain way. The difference comes in the style of the approach, you get trad trainers who are plain rough with horses and you get 'NH' ones too, and vice versa.

What I would say from my own personal experience though is that mainstream traditional training doesn't tend to give you an understanding of what makes horses tick. For example although things like pressure and release and habituation are used everyday in riding and handling (skilfully by good horse people whatever their ilk) they are never explained or made clear in their own right - you're essentially left to find out about them for yourself.

So I personally think 'NH' or whatever you want to call it does have a role to play in broadening people's understanding. It's not trad v. Parelli at all, there are plenty of other things to look at and try out, though very few if any present what they do in a dot to dot format.

[horsey1]

Sorry to come barging in as it were :)
IMPO I think its for some horses, but not for others I personally think in my own experiance with "parelli" it sucks :( Sorry PH folk.
I have had my own hoss for a year and he is a good boy, but stupidly let my then sharer and friend, practice parelli on him, god knows why :eek: and to be quite honest his manners and general good boy attitude was staring to go downhill quite rapidly, and thankfully she went to a demo and they told her to stop, which I was going to anyway, as they said it was confusing him.
So now he's back to his old self thankfully :D why fix it if it is not broken :(

[Naturally]

CVB will send you a PM on Haras de la Cense so as not to intefere with this topic.

[chapsi]

There is a very similar thread going on in the EE site for quite a few days now, and the general consensus about Parelli's methods seems to be rather negative.

[Jacquie]

Yes CVB, that is I suppose my point. I have reached many many frustrations and always been able to have them answered. Despite criticisms of me and others like me who are solely dedicated to PNH, I do accept other systems as working also, but because I chose PNH and I have the opportunity to train with the likes of Dave Stuart, I find I get all the answers I need by asking questions and working on my own skills to find the answers.

But I do believe that too many people learn the 7 games and think they KNOW parelli, or watch a video and think they KNOW parelli, then feel qualified to report negatively on it. Then there are the people who have seen one or two students play with their horse and form an opinion on THAT. Hell, I went to Pony Club one day and saw cross tied ponies being bashed, crop yielding to stop, go and turn (all the same cue) Rib kicking, fist thumping and just damn dangerous horses with little kids on them, but I wouldn't dare go into a Pony Club forum and start telling them what I think of their horsemanship. So I get frustrated when Parelli is torn apart by people who don't understand it. :(

And Kate thank you for the concrete examples. It was nice to see an opinion based on something substantial. :)

Excellent post Naturally. :)

[Jacquie]

I have had my own hoss for a year and he is a good boy, but stupidly let my then sharer and friend, practice parelli on him, god knows why :eek: and to be quite honest his manners and general good boy attitude was staring to go downhill quite rapidly, and thankfully she went to a demo and they told her to stop, which I was going to anyway, as they said it was confusing him.
So now he's back to his old self thankfully :D why fix it if it is not broken :(
Please don't blame PNH for the problems you experienced. It probably wasn't this that confused your horse, more likely the fact that you preffered to stay 'normal' while the sharer practised 'natural'. :rolleyes:
It would have saved a lot of confusion for both yourself, sharer and horse if you had discussed things before hand. ;)

[Chablis]

We teach people to notice the feet from day 1, and we don't get bad attitudes - or if we do, we consider this a problem and work to get good attitude before moving on. The attitude improvement comes when the horse sees you as a "higher ranking horse", - and when that is firmly established, challenges come very rarely with mares and geldings - obviously more often with stallions. The lead mare isn't challenged every day - why should we be? The other horses know she is the best one to look after the herd - they trust her to make the right decisions to keep the herd safe, and respect her judgement. No need or benefit to challenging her all the time.

Kate
www.harmony-project.net


Hi Kate,

I do disagree with this and I will write why:

I see horses constantly challenging the lead horse constantly... it can be as little as coming into the lead horse's territory to as big as the other horse double barrelling the lead horse.

I've seen a less confident horse who is lower in the pecking order challenge the lead horse despite the lead horse proving their dominance earlier in the day.

The lead horse (mare) who also happens to be mine, is an extremely dominant horse and can and will get very expressive when she feels she's been challenged.

Interestingly enough, my gelding who she pushes around BIG time, double barrelled the lead horse in the paddock next to theirs when I lead them through the paddock yet my mare who is the lead horse in her 'herd' runs a mile from this other lead horse...

It's the mare's job as lead horse of her herd to protect the rest of the herd, yet in this instance, the horse lower in the pecking order did for her...

Herd dynamics are fascinating to watch.

I'm the alpha with my mare and she constantly challenges me to 'prove' that I am still worthy of the honour - horses do this constantly as otherwise if they have an ineffective leader, they could end up dead, it's how horses think.

Now this is not to say that my mare and I don't have a good relationship because we do BUT you can see horses challenging each other every day and they do it to us to ie 'you can't catch me, don't put that rug/cover on me, move out of MY way'.

[Chablis]

Sorry to come barging in as it were :)
IMPO I think its for some horses, but not for others I personally think in my own experiance with "parelli" it sucks :( Sorry PH folk.
I have had my own hoss for a year and he is a good boy, but stupidly let my then sharer and friend, practice parelli on him, god knows why :eek: and to be quite honest his manners and general good boy attitude was staring to go downhill quite rapidly, and thankfully she went to a demo and they told her to stop, which I was going to anyway, as they said it was confusing him.
So now he's back to his old self thankfully :D why fix it if it is not broken :(

I think you would find that trying to do things in two different ways would be very confusing to the horse who would be trying to follow conflicting signals and getting all mixed up.

Your right it doesn't work due to the above.

Good thing your compromised.

[Kate F.]

Hi Chablis!

I think we need to take into account that the behaviour we see in domestic herds is not a true reflection of "natural"/wild behaviour. We often have mixed herds of mares and geldings - in the wild it would be 1 stallion and several mares, or a band of all stallions. Domestic herds are far less stable (no pun intended! :) ) as new horses are introduced, horses are moved away etc. far more often than would happen in the wild situation, and our domestic herds are often turned out in a confined space as opposed to the free roaming natural condition. This means the herd behaviour is a little distorted, and we may see more upsets and challenges that one would in a wild herd.

Each time a new horse comes in, or one leaves, the herd order will be re-established so there will be a period of far more intensive and concentrated challenges. In a wild herd, this usually only happens a couple of times a year, but in a domestic herd it may be several times a year.

Another thing that often distorts domestic herds, is that you often see a "herd within a herd". You may have geldings that claim certain mares, and form their own "sub herds". Because they are in a confined space there may then be conflicts between the herds. Let's say there are 2 geldings and 5 mares in a field. Gelding 1 may have mares a,b and c, while gelding 2 has mares e and f. Gelding 2 tries to take mare b from Gelding 1, and a "stallion fight" ensues. The winner may (usually temporarily) try to claim all the mares, so then the mares have to make a new order. What looks like a challenge to the herd order, is actually a conflict between 2 herds in the horse's mind.

This sounds to have been what could have happened with your two and the horse in the other field. You don't say whether the other horse was a mare or gelding - but from the description, it sounds like it was probably a gelding. Your gelding would therefore seem to condider your mare as "his" and was defending her from another "stallion". We need to keep in mind the different roles of the sexes. A natural herd does not have one "lead horse" - there is a lead mare who is responsible for leading the herd to safety, and a herd stallion whose job it is to protect his mares from predators or other stallions. If you look at the herd in a 1 to 10 order, the stallion will appear to be number 1, in as much as he has the strongest "bubble" - but in the crisis it is the lead mare that the herd turns to for guidance, while the stallion will chase the herd together, and if need be, turn and fight the predator. That's why it's important for us to recognise the different roles of the sexes when we assess behaviour.

I think we also need to distinguish a challenge to the herd order and the behaviour that is just the maintenance of the herd order. A real challenge is fairly spectacular and relatively rare. The tail swishes, ears back and little nips that just maintain the order are very common - and I think THIS is what you mean by "challenges" every day. The herd order does not change from these exchanges, they are just a reaffirmation of an established order, and are as much a part of the daily routine as mutual grooming etc. They show how big the "bubbles" of personal space are at any one time and this can vary from minute to minute.

The behaviour that is expressed towards us of "'you can't catch me, don't put that rug/cover on me, move out of MY way'" are most common when the horse does not see the person as a good leader, and are treating you as a lower member of the herd. The more you stress your leadership qualities by noticing such things as how the feet move, and how to elicit the steps that mean trust and respect to the horse, the less you will get of these "challenges", until they virtually disappear. You have dealt with the "herd order" issues in far more subtle ways, so the horse does not treat you as a lower member of the herd in bigger ways.

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Naturally]

Thanks Kate, that was really interesting. :)

[Awakening_09]

I agree with the Parelli troubles. My mare, Tiki, was hard to manage when we got her. We were told that she was green broken, and had been ridden in saddle and bridle as well as bareback in a halter and lead... She had never seen a saddle or bridle before.

After educating Tiki to these new objects, she became somewhat sour. Hoping to cheer her up, a friend offered to teach us Parelli. She was a level three, so we agreed.

It didn't go sweetly. I was placed in a corner to watch, while she fed Tiki tibits and won her over. Tiki learnt to nip and if she wasn't given a treat, she would turn her ass you on me.

I don't reward her with treats, and since then seh had decided I am below her. She does only what she wants to do, not what I ask her, unless she is in the mood to... If she is in a good mood, I can stand on her back, leap frong onto her rump, slide off it, ride backwards or read on her for hours. If not, I am thrown off, and usually end up with concusion. Because of this Tiki is now playing brood mare untill I can save up the money to have her re-educated professionally.



HOWEVER - this may simply have been this person's way of training her horses [she had two] but I didn't like it, and found it extreamly boring. When I tried to do the work with Tiki without treats, she simply ignored me, and so I think she found it boring as well.

I've had Tiki for a total of five years now, two before Parelli, adn two after. She still walks on me. Two weeks ago, mum bought me Kitty, whom I did Monty Roberts with.

I don't know if you know of his techniques, but basically, you force the horse away from you, until it lowers its head and chews its lips, sucking up, then you let it come to you. You reward it by patting it, then walk away. The horse follows you.

Kitty is great fun. I am both her leader, and her friend. She follows me everywhere, and I beleive she would do anything I asked of her; I am teaching her to rear, and to lay down.

With both MR and PP, I have found that it enables you to touch the horse anywhere, and that PP "bending" part, was a great way to teach Tiki to neck rein - she is the best on our property, but her attitude is disastorus[?].



I think that, no matter what training method you choose, you have to warp it to become YOUR OWN. Just as every trainer and person is different, so, too, is every horse and pony. They aren't all going to respond the same. You have to find what they enjoy... I believe, the most rewarding for both horse and rider, is to mix the "better bits" of both MR, PP, your own Style, and any other training technique you can find, together to make up something that both you and your horse are going to enjoy and respond to. There is no point in doing something that the pair of you are going to find boring or irritating...

o.O I'm a blabber mouth :P

[Naturally]

I'd be curious to know how far into L3 she was, because she certainly doens't sound like a L3 graduate to me. She is also not a PNH trainer, nor an instructor, so I wouldn't have let her near my young horse.

PNH,as I have said a zillion times, is not about teaching the horse, it's about teaching the human. So without you having learned PNH yourself, having a horse trained in PNH is really quite worthless IMO. Although, if the horse was handled for long enough and well through PNH, it's ground manners would be set in concrete.

[Yann]

Hmmm, have to agree, bribing a horse with titbits isn't PNH or anything else NH. You don't win a horse over that way, you just spoil it. However correct use of treats as a positive reinforcement as in clicker training can be a slightly different matter.

[crazystevie]

I started parelli, but found it really difficult to get into. My horse wasn't responding to anything. I got an instructor out, and he helped me get through the 7 games, but I just got so bored of it, and so did my horse. He began to lose his sparkle. I only did it for 3 months, so i probably should have gave it a bit more time. It was becoming a chore.

I now do things MY way, and my horse responds much better. I prefer to bond with him by grooming him and handling him, and letting him graze in hand and stuff. I go in the school and just play with him. He follows me around over jumps and around cones and stuff, and he enjoys that a lot mroe than parelil, and so do I. He is so much more respectful and affectionate when i do things this way.

Parelli does work for some people, and I think for it to really work, you have to be very enthusiastic about it, and really believe and agree with what Pat parelli says. I'm not saying it's wrong or doesn't work, but it's not for everyone, and not for every horse.

I still use some of the principals, such as if my horse is being rude or is in a bad mood, I play the porcupine game, and try and put him back in his place. And I still play a lot of the friendly game, and he is better to clip and stuff. It does have its uses I guess.

[smaggi]

I think that, no matter what training method you choose, you have to warp it to become YOUR OWN. Just as every trainer and person is different, so, too, is every horse and pony. They aren't all going to respond the same. You have to find what they enjoy... I believe, the most rewarding for both horse and rider, is to mix the "better bits" of both MR, PP, your own Style, and any other training technique you can find, together to make up something that both you and your horse are going to enjoy and respond to. There is no point in doing something that the pair of you are going to find boring or irritating...


I totally agree with you. I've got videos, books, and taken clinics with a lot of trainers and found that I learned something from each one. I don't think that one trainer has the perfect answer for every horse or every situation with the same horse. My personal favorite is Clinton Anderson. I try to follow his methods the most, but if something isn't working for us, I'll add my own twist to it or apply something I've learned from a different trainer.

[alynicholson]

Wow!! What a load of bad experiences. Any method is only as good as the person who uses it. 'A bad workman always blames his tools!!' Even folks who have spent all of their lives working with horses are frequently useless. Much of the good in horses is beaten out of them or poked out of them with a carrot stick. Open your eyes and you will see your horse talking to you. See what your horse is saying. Does he want to be with you or are you just a source of food? Does he really like you or is he following you because he daren't do any other. Can you see pain in your horse, can you feel his anguish. You cannot teach these things, people can learn to be more instinctive, but most folks just haven't got it and that's why many horses are spoiled and/or react badly to whatever method of training is used. Blame yourself, not the horse or the method!

[Esther.D]

I think that, no matter what training method you choose, you have to warp it to become YOUR OWN. Just as every trainer and person is different, so, too, is every horse and pony. They aren't all going to respond the same. You have to find what they enjoy... I believe, the most rewarding for both horse and rider, is to mix the "better bits" of both MR, PP, your own Style, and any other training technique you can find, together to make up something that both you and your horse are going to enjoy and respond to. There is no point in doing something that the pair of you are going to find boring or irritating...


Totally agree. Personally Parelli has provided the breakthrough with two 'problem' horses...however I am am experienced with horses and have had 20+ years of working around them so had enough confidence and knowledge to use it the way it suited me and the horse. I could have done it without Parelli but it gave us the inspiration of what direction to head in next, we now have two happy, well adjusted horses who are the delight of the livery owner as they are so well mannered and easy to handle, yet they are certainly not robotic or characterless. I have not been 'true' to Parelli, they have also longreined, lunged etc and done all sorts of other bits and bobs and I have not found any conflict of interests - but that is because I was using Parelli as a means to MY goal which was not necessarily the same as the official Parelli goal, hence the reason I have not continued through the levels as it was the confidence and ground handling I wanted to work on primarily and it has given us that so now I mix it in with my other more traditional training to take them to where I want them. I have to give it the big thumbs up, but we were 'cherry-picking' bits of the method that we wanted and did come from a background of experience working with young horses.

[shazbaz]

I have tried the Parelli methods too...but I barely got into it. I got to the part (lesson three i think) where you tap the lead with the carrot stick and it is supposed to make the horse go backwards. I tried this, but no matter what, my horse kept coming FORWARDS. I got frustrated at her until I realised she was doing what she thought she was supposed to do. The tapping was pulling the rope, so she responded to the pull and walked forwards.
So I gave up this particular activity and tried the next one, which was tapping the ground gradually closer to the horse's hindquarters, and they were supposed to walk sideways. When this didn't wokr either, I thought hard about it, and realised this was doing a very dumb thing; teaching horses to move away from something on the ground. Imagine how this would be in a situation with a car or something moving towards the horse!
I was glad for my horse doing what she did. Doing what she was meant to do! I have since stowed my $200 Parelli Partnership pack in the cupboard, and $100 worth of Carrot Stick and Savvy String in the shed. I haven't used them since that day.
I was so shocked. Parelli methods sound so great, until you put them into practise and realise that they are the opposite of what's right!

would like to try parelli myself but cant afford to buy all the equipment how about selling me yours

[Crystal Fire]

That was posted in 2005. You could try Ebay.

[wildpony_007]

I ride at a pony share scheme where we do parelli. When I first started I rode this black new forest called Charlie who was a nightmare. He would try to run you over and bite you when you tacked up. When I finally got on him I couldn't move anywhere because he just stuck his head over the fence. I felt like giving up then but then a new horse came called Dodi. He's an arab x welsh I rode him for one session and he bombed it with me but I still swaped my share because bombing it is better than going nowhere! It might just be your horse just isn't a parelli pony.:D

[thoroughlybred1]

I know very little about parelli, and do not practise it, but a couple of years ago we had a pony come into the yard from france. We found him quite difficult and stubborn to deal with. We joked that we needed to communicate in french with him, and quite by chance we had a student in who was working part time with the Blue Cross at Burford (Oxon). Said student was here to learn from us, but she quickly recognised that the pony in question had been parelli trained from what she had picked up in her time working with the BC. It was the first time a student training with us ended up reversing the teaching roles but thank god she she was there!

She made the break through in communicating with this pony, but what if she hadnt been there? it is all very well training in various methods, but if you do train in such ways, you should be responsible enough to ensure that whoever you pass the pony/horse onto is also converse in said methods!

[Crystal Fire]

Could you be more specific about what problems you were having with this horse and what it was that made the Blue Cross lady realise it was down to Parelli training, and how she solved it?
I ask because my experience of natural horsemanship is that it shouldn't interfere with the way a horse relates to the rest of the world, it should help. I was quite closely involved with the Blue Cross at Burford and Northiam when they were using Parelli as a foundation for their training. Their intention is always to move the horses on to loan homes at some time in the future, and they wouldn't have succeeded in that if their Parelli training was a method that would make things difficult for the future loaners.
Just interested. :)

[thoroughlybred1]

Crikey - it was a long time ago - i'd guess 4 years but could be longer, so i cant remember all the details as we have quite a few horses through the yard in a year - I really ought to start documenting them all as it would be interesting to look back on each case! Unfortunately with health and safety issues as they are today, any time we have for paperwork is spent on risk assessments, rider assessments, school horse assessments, filling out forms, paying bills and when we're on a good month creating invoices!

however - i digress..... The pony in question was a 7 yr old gelding that had allegedly participated in pony club type activities in France. he rode very "green", not going forward and difficult to steer - opening his mouth and escaping through his shoulder. We initially put a flash noseband on him which quite upset him. Though he was supposed to be suitable for a novice, and was sent to us (we are essentially a riding school) to use until he could be sold, we could not use him in lessons because of the above. He was never nasty, and never displayed undesired tendancies - just appeared very green for a pony with his supposed history.

We joked that he didnt understand our "language", being from france, and as he was essentially safe in so much that he wouldnt do anything nasty with a rider on board, we put a student on him that was working part time at the BC. Like i said, i know nothing about parelli, or how it works, but this rider neck reined him and rode him as she did those parelli trained from the BC and from then on we had steering and a forward going pony and without a doubt, she got this pony going like no one else at our yard could. the pony was never at the BC, and i do not doubt that the BC would ensure any person rehoming one of their horses would be able to communicate with it - my feeling regarding this particular pony was that it had been exclusively parelli trained and simply did not understand what we were asking of him initially.

[mayoguinness]

Well Mayo has been trained using NH but if a conventional person comes to handle him hes ok with them as long as they don't pull him about, know how to put apropiate pressure on him and treat him with understanding and respect. I dare say if they put a bit in his mouth, a treed saddle on his back, pulled on the bit to stop, kicked or squeezed to go he would not like it at all and I could understand that. I'm not going to train him to put up with that just because he may need to be rehomed to someone who handles him differently. In my case I would never rehome him anyway but if I was going to I'd make sure he went to a place that he was treated how I was treating him and the training methods the same!! A horse trained using NH techniques should not be hard to deal with, they may be very sensitive to what your asking and come off very light commands, if they have unnessersery pressure put on them that is not needed I can understand why they may act in a difficult way....................

[Crystal Fire]

Well, he might have been Parelli trained thoroughlybred1 (love your name!), but it doesn't shout Parelli to me. He could just as easily have been western trained, or just used to being ridden on a more casual rein. I think that sometimes when we take on a new horse we end up inadvertently shouting at them when they can hear a whisper in terms of the aids we are giving.
But it sounds like she did a good job, sort of took a step back in order to move forward.
My point re the Blue Cross is that they were training the horses using Parelli methods, but that didn't make any particular difference when the horses went out on loan. If a "Parelli" or similarly trained horse has been trained by someone who does the job well, you should hardly be able to see the join. Apart from the fact that they may be much more sensitive and react to lighter pressure when ridden and on the ground.

[india]

I agree with CF, by the description, it sounds more like a western trained horse than a Parelli one.

If this pony was Parelli trained, he must have been at least working through the middle/later end of level 2 to have been [re]introduced to the bit and to also understand the 'supporting rein' aid. At this stage, correctly trained Parelli horses have been taught to be light and responsive to their riders aids by using nothing more than a snaffle bridle.

Also, if he was exclusively Parelli trained, he would never have had the need to wear a flash noseband before, so undoubtedly having his mouth suddenly tied up would have upset him.

After reading your description of the ponies behaviour, my gut feeling is that despite what you where led to believe, I doubt whether this was a genuine trained Parelli pony.

[thoroughlybred1]

Thanks for all the comments - as i said i know nothing about parelli, and know even less about western training, hence the initial communication problems with the pony. Its a shame they dont all come with a full service history!

happily, we got there in the end the pony went on to a lovely private home - quite why the owners ever wanted him in a riding school in the first place remains a mystery - i guess they just didnt know what else to do with him or have anyone to ride him!

At least now i've discovered this board i'll know where to ask the questions should the need arise! I dont think i've seen a problem on here yet that SOMEONE hasnt had some experience of!

[katefarmer]

Could also be that the horse was simply very green (it's not unusual for horse to be sold as "done xyz somewhere else" and they actually turn out to have done nothing at all) and the Parelli approach used by this girl just did what it was supposed to do and got him going. The fact it got him going so well, could just be a testiment to how well she did it - not anything to do with what he had or had not done before.

As others have suggested, if he had been Parelli trained previously, he probably wouldn't have had the problems you describe.

[blackhorses]

I went to a parelli clinic and found it was an absolute load of rubbish - sorry but it was, I have never seen such a group of turned off miserable looking horses ever. Why do they call them the 7 games when there is nothing fun about them, to me wagging a rope or a finger in a horses face to make it go backwards is enough to annoy any animal! And the porcupine game - higher ranked horses never poke each other to get them to move, they just have to look at them and position thier body, it just taught the horse a movement for a reward but did nothing to establish the humans higher rank?!! Only the lower ranked horses who have to fight to keep thier place actually touch another horse to make it move.
I am a fan of using body language etc but thought parelli just didn't do anything constructive and didn't use horse body language but just teaching a set response for a treat. If I poke a horse with a stick it moves out of the way - naturally, but what does it acheive?
Sorry but it didn't float my boat!!!

[mayoguinness]

Poke a horse with a stick?? hu?? Never learnt that!! Then again its not Parelli I do its Australlian NH!!

[india]

Poke a horse with a stick?? hu?? Never learnt that!!

Neither did I.....

I used to study Parelli but was never taught to poke a horse with a stick or finger!!! :rolleyes:

The Porcupine game is about applying steady pressure (not poking), starting with a soft feel and slowly increasing untill the horse responds - the pressure is then instantly released.

Each game has a purpose behind the principle and this one teaches the horse to become light and responsive to the rein, bit or riders leg aids. ;)

[mayoguinness]

Yep, dunno what all this poking with stick business is about.......sounds very strange............made me laugh when I saw it..............I just thought how very odd!!!!!!!!!lol. certaintly not a NH thing to my recalection ;)

[Crystal Fire]

just teaching a set response for a treat
Do you mean treats for the horse or the people? :D
I don't think NH teaches us to use horse language, I think it establishes a "language" between us and the horse that they understand. As do other training methods.
I don't hold Parelli as a shining example of NH. One of the problems I have is that when they get people on a Level 1 clinic I think they should explain what the point of the poking and prodding is. But they don't. Which doesn't help when you have sceptical people watching.
I've seen plenty of Parelli clinics where they have had horses "Porcupining" their horse backwards by applying the Carrot Stick to their chest, and over by doing it to their bum. That is poking them with a stick in the eyes of many. You get a stick, you poke your horse with it to make them move... seems perfectly clear to me. :)
Blackhorses, the idea of this is to eventually teach the horse to move off the lightest of cues, whether that be fingertip pressure, or pressure of the rope on the nose, or just applying a bit of "energy" towards part of their body. I don't think you get that picture in the early stages. :D
Somebody said to me once "This isn't darn games I'm playing here, this is bl**dy serious!". He was an NH trainer, but not a Parelli one.

[india]

One of the problems I have is that when they get people on a Level 1 clinic I think they should explain what the point of the poking and prodding is.
I disagree CF .....at no time should a PNH instructor need to explain why a horse is being poked and prodded at a clinic - for the simple reason that poking and prodding isn't part of the training programme - not even at Level 1.!!

Extract from the PNH website:

The Porcupine Game is about teaching your horse to yield, or move away from pressure. People tend to want to use pokey, jabbing movements, but it is a steady pressure that causes a horse to learn about his responsibility to move off pressure and find his own comfort.

No doubt poking and prodding by a few new students is evident at some L1 clinics, but then it's the instructors responsibility to explain and teach the correct method to apply. ;)

[mayoguinness]

I've never heard of poking in Parelli but of course its not exactly PNH that I do ;)

[Crystal Fire]

I was being a bit flippant :rolleyes:
But surely you can understand that, to a complete outsider, when you start doing your "porcupine" stuff, especially if it's your very first time learning about it, it might look as if you are poking and prodding your horse?
For goodness sake let's not get picky about the definition of "poking and prodding" :D You apply your fingers to your horses side or other part of the body, you increase pressure if he doesn't yield.
Cambridge dictionary definition of prod"
"to push something or someone with your finger or with a pointed object
"an act of pushing something or someone with your finger or with a pointed object"

[mayoguinness]

Yeah ok lol, I can understand that............;)

[india]

I was being a bit flippant :rolleyes:
But surely you can understand that, to a complete outsider, when you start doing your "porcupine" stuff, especially if it's your very first time learning about it, it might look as if you are poking and prodding your horse?
I agree, this is why it's the instructors responsibility to explain and demonstrate to the students and spectators the difference between poking/prodding and pressure and release.

At every clinic I attended the day would start with a 'classroom' study that involved at least one hour devoted to explaining the principles and methods of whatever level was being taught. At the L1 clinics this always included the 'pressure and release' being explained and demonstrated.

I don't know if every PNH instructor includes the 'classroom' studies at their clinics but it was the usual procedure at each one I attended. :)

[puzzles]

i suppose it's a bit lie diets - some work better for others and soke simply dopn't seem to work at all, but it's based on mor efactors than the methods 'not just working' often.
x