What can go wrong with a treeless?

[notpoodle]

angels current behaviour when saddling got me thinking ... i noticed today that she got angry just by seeing the saddle and put ears flat back when i lifted it over her back. we have a barefoot treeless saddle, with the pommel taken out and stuffed with pillowstuffing. what coiuld the problem be? should i try with the fibreglass pommel? im at a total loss as to what it could be ... the saddle is a soft and 'floppy' affair, we have the correct numnah for it and she was fine with it before ...

julia
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[Cheko]

Hi Notpoodle! I've never had any experience of treeless saddles but will hazzard a guess at Angel's reaction. A saddle with a tree supports the rider's weight and keeps the rider from sitting directly on the spine. However, to my (albeit unenlightened view of treeless saddles) way of thinking a treeless saddle probably does not keep weight of the rider off the pony's back in the same way. Therefore there could be some pressure on the spine. This is only a shot in the dark, because, as I have already said, I dont really know how these saddles work!

[Tangle]

This is a tricky question to ask without offending - I don't mean to, honest!

How well balanced a rider are you? My instructor used to believe all treeless saddles were the work of satan and wouldn't touch them with a barge pole as she believed they tended to result in back problems. Then she couldn't find a tree'd saddle that she liked and rode her horse in a bareback pad for a year - now she's decided treeless is the way forward and is looking for something a little more robust. However, it's not a complete about face. Based on her experience she's now of the opinon that treeless can be fine as long as the rider is well balanced and control themselves. For a rider that doesn't have very good balance she'd very strongly recommend tree'd still.

May not apply in your case, but it's one thing I've heard of that made sense as a potential treeless problem.

Have you given her back a prod and seen if she's sore? Might be as simple as she's rolled on a stone and has tight muscles that the saddle is agravating, rather than the saddle being the cause do the problem :)

[notpoodle]

@ cheko: theyre desingned so that there isnt pressure on the spine. the special numhah i have with it helps avoid that as well, so i dont think its the spine.

@ tangle: no offence taken :D my balance is okay as far as im aware, its the one thing instructors tell me i get right, although my riding otherwise is a bit dodgy i guess.

ill try with the pommel and see if that helps. if not, backlady it is!

julia
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[Crystal Fire]

I have used several treeless saddles and currently I ride with an Ansur. I love Dartmoor Treefree as well, so experience of two quite different styles.
First question is - what is the special numnah made of? If it's of some sort of impact-reducing foam (like the HM Seatsaver pad) that might help - Skito pads are made of this. A Suber Pad, with the granules inside can also spread pressure. You may need something that will do more to save your horse's back.
Second - it is my opinion that treeless saddles may need some sort of weight limit attached. Sorry if you're a featherweight! I'm not sure treeless saddles can really distribute the weight of a heavier rider enough, I know some makers have a suggested weight limit.
Third - what sort of distances do you ride and how often? I know some treeless claim to be good for distance rides, but the Dartmoor Treefree makers are at pains to say that their saddle has not been tested for endurance, and imho the Treefree is the best of this style of saddle.
Fourth - er, the list is growing... sorry... I believe that the stirrups on your saddle are attached at the end of a single strip of webbing that goes straight across your horse's back. I could be wrong, but the most common pressure problems with treeless saddles that I have encountered have been as a result of the pressure of the rider using the stirrups, which gives either a sore band over the back and/or pressure under where the stirrup bars sit. The other problem I've found is with the saddles that have blocks at pommel and cantle, with pressure under the blocks. (If the rider's bum is too big for the saddle they can actually press back on the cantle block). You've got over that one as you've already removed yours.
Certainly I've noticed that riders with a very independent seat who don't put pressure in the stirrups seem to get on better with treeless. But that's just my personal experience, I'm sure if you could get statistics you might find something different.
I think you should get your horse's back checked out asap, no saddle suits all horses, and if it's causing a problem you need to know I guess. If it is, you can try the pads I mentioned above and see if that helps, but be careful because they don't always work.
Hope that helps. :)

[MelanieD]

Maybe she just doesn't like treeless? Some horses prefer treed saddles. Have you still got a treed saddle that fits to see if she reacts the same way to that? Maybe it's something about the girth she doesn't like rather than the saddle itself?

I'm still getting teeth aimed at me even though my fussy madam has an SBS, she just doesn't like her big belly squeezed :rolleyes: has always been opinionated about it (now treeless, has treed saddle that fits as well and been checked by osteopath).

[galadriel]

Do you have a recent picture of her with the saddle on? I wonder if the cantle is too far back for her. You will have more pressure under both the cantle and the pommel, as well as directly under you, than throughout the seat.

The Barefoot puts all of your weight directly underneath you; the pommel only helps with spine clearance. If you have good spine clearance, the pommel isn't likely to change anything (but you never know). It might help to shift the saddle forwards or backwards; it might be that you're just sitting in a spot that can't bear your weight as well. If you move slightly forwards or backwards that might be enough to shift the center of your weight.

[Showjumper]

The first thing I'd do is get her checked out to rule out any physical causes.

Ditto Galadriel - do you have a recent photo?

Am I right in thinking she's lost weight recently? If so, you may need more/different padding.

Karin did a test with girths a while ago (I seem to remember) and was surprised at how her horses made their girth preference clear - it could be worth trying different girths. I believe your current one is elasticated? Is it elasticated the whole way through, at both ends, or just one end?

[Crystal Fire]

Ideally when you put this saddle on it should look level through the seat, which means that they tend to sit further back than a normal saddle. I have seen pics of people's horses with these saddles too far forward and tilted upwards, more like a treed saddle, and this isn't right.
If the horse is a tubby though, you my find the saddle travels forwards too far anyway as the girth slides forward taking the saddle with it.
If you've still got a block in the cantle, and the saddle is too far forward meaning that your bum sometimes pushes on the cantle - there's a likely problem.
Given the small number of people I know personally who have the same saddle as you, I have heard of a worrying number of pressure problems. So I'd definitely get your horse checked physically before you do anything else.
Good luck :)

[virtuallyhorses]

We asked about treeless saddles during the saddlefitting section of the equine physio course I took recently. The biggest things that our teacher had seen in her clients were - soreness from stirrup pressure (which in a treeless is applied directly across the back including the spine), lack of any spine channel (clearance), and the blocks in either pommel or cantle causing pain and injury.

[notpoodle]

guess i am a featherweight, i weigh 8 stone :D

the saddle is level. i checked last night if the cantle was bopping up and down on her back as i was riding, it didnt seem so. its a size one, but she has quite a long back for her size and i phoned barfoot about the size before i ordered giving her back's length, so it should be the right size.

ive only got an old picture of her with the saddle, but it does look level.

the pad we have is the one that comes with the barefoot, it has two foampads either side of the spine which you can slide in.

with the stirrup bars .... i normally make sure i dont use my stirrups all the time i am riding ie. will kick my feet out when i walk her round, and i havent ridden all that much lately, anyway, so i can imagine its that. hmm .... am really baffled as to what is wrong :(

julia
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pic of her with saddle just after we got it

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/toyracer/mai3.jpg

[Showjumper]

Could you take some photos of the saddle from the side, front and back whilst on her with your normal padding?

[galadriel]

Looks to me like it might be a bit far forward. The cantle doesn't look like it's far enough back to be causing a problems, and even looks like there's a lot of room to move further back. The pommel looks like it might be far enough forward to be causing shoulder interference.

[nix]

Has anyone got a Port Lewis impression pad you can borrow? It would show up where any pressure points are. Also, to me, it looks as though you have enough room to move the whole saddle back slightly off her wither. If she's unhappy, when she's been happy before the saddle must be causing discomfort somewhere.

If you wanted to try a Suberpad or other saddlecloth with your saddle, I do hire those as well ...

HTH :)

[notpoodle]

ive taken the stuffing out today and put the pommel in, she seemed better when saddling (could have been a coincidence though). i have never heard of a Port Lewis pad. what are they? how do they work? i dont think the pad i have is the problem, as it is specially designed for the saddle i have

julia
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[hackedoff]

When was the last time she had a whole week or more totally off on holiday just being a pony in the field with her friends? I only ask cos a while ago Archer was a grumpy son of a beech making faces at me when he saw me coming with tack and frankly it was like riding a camel with haemorriods! Gave him a 10 day holiday and all back to normal :D

[breakeraway]

i have to agree with NIX, your saddle is sitting to far forwards, treeless saddles such as torsion , barefoot, trekkers are designed so the girth sits further back and NOT in the girthing area of a treed saddle, basically about 4-inches from normal treed girth area, if you get my drift :rolleyes:
the reason behind this is _ if you have a belt done up tightly under your arms, it restricts your arm movement, which is then uncomfortable, the same is said of the treeless girthing system, which is why the treeless saddles have their girth set further back,
it looks to me as if the saddle is restricting your horse shoulder movement, which will make her sore, and this in turn will also pull the saddle down over her withers as the is alot more movement, and also may cause the to be pressure on her spine as you wont have the same clearance as you would if the saddle was sitting straight.

sorry to be critiacal, but only trying to help ;)

[notpoodle]

ill try further backwards :)

@ april: she had 2 weeks off about a month or so ago because i didnt have time to ride, then she had the tapeworm etc. so i dont think its lack of holidays :)

julia
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[breakeraway]

let us know how you get on - it may take a few weeks to sort out, esp if she i sore -just give her time, it wont hurt to get her back checked any way :)

[Drummers mum]

i have to agree with NIX, your saddle is sitting to far forwards, treeless saddles such as torsion , barefoot, trekkers are designed so the girth sits further back and NOT in the girthing area of a treed saddle, basically about 4-inches from normal treed girth area, if you get my drift :rolleyes:
the reason behind this is _ if you have a belt done up tightly under your arms, it restricts your arm movement, which is then uncomfortable, the same is said of the treeless girthing system, which is why the treeless saddles have their girth set further back,
it looks to me as if the saddle is restricting your horse shoulder movement, which will make her sore, and this in turn will also pull the saddle down over her withers as the is alot more movement, and also may cause the to be pressure on her spine as you wont have the same clearance as you would if the saddle was sitting straight.

sorry to be critiacal, but only trying to help ;)

I know thts what they say, but if I put Drummers saddle back there, we would just slide forwards and then probably fall off because the girth is to loose! :o :rolleyes: :D

[Crystal Fire]

Ah! I remember when I was as tiny as you... either when I was about 13 or when I had glandular fever! :)
If you've got the same pony-shape problem as I have you might need a crupper to keep the saddle in the right place, I think it's a little far forwar. However, with no block in the pommel I wouldn't be too worried about that. On lots of horses my Treefree stayed in the right place, but on my pony it always travelled too far forward.
I have 4 friends with these saddles and 3 have had different pressure problems :( So if you can get her checked out it might be worth it.
Actually I don't have 4 friends with these saddles, because 3 of them have sold theirs on.

[Showjumper]

ive taken the stuffing out today and put the pommel in, she seemed better when saddling (could have been a coincidence though). i have never heard of a Port Lewis pad. what are they? how do they work? i dont think the pad i have is the problem, as it is specially designed for the saddle i have

julia
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The pommel block is great, as long as it fits her wither profile. Her being happier with it in could coincide with her having lost weight and needing the front lifting off the withers more.

A Port Lewis pad is for testing for pressure spots - I believe you can hire one from Nix for a few days. It basically goes under the saddle, go for a ride, and check it out afterwards. Even pressure throughout is good - areas with more pressure than others aren't.

The pad may have been designed for the saddle, however not for the horse - maybe Angel feels she needs more/different padding. I'm only hanging onto this point because I remember you telling us how she'd lost a lot of weight recently.

A saddle such as the Barefoot is highly unlikely to impede shoulder movement as the shoulder can move underneath the flaps (unlike with my Diddi with has full panels) plus yours isn't that far forward anyway. You want it so the seat is level - if you move it back 4-5 inches, I reckon it will end up tilting forwards in a major way and probably sliding about/digging in plus once your weight is in it, it will make contact with her loins. Just move it back a titch until it's completely level (you're not far off in that picture!)

[notpoodle]

this is getting confusing ... so what do i do? backwards quite a bit or just a td? i had read about shouldr movement andf treeless saddles, it said they didnt restrict shoulder movement like a normal saddle ...

julia
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[No_Angel]

I had a bit of a problem with my Trekker on my very wide cob, The pommel block was too narrow for him and because he has huge shoulders and I wanted the girth set back a bit the seat wasnt ever level, so I used a riser pad ( shires shock absorbing saddle pad is great, very similar to prolite but a bit heavier and alot cheaper :D ) I also stuffed the pommel and it was alot better, kept the saddle off his withers and created more wither clearance.

But on my small section a pony I have the saddle quite far forward over her withers, with the pommel block in and only a numnah underneath, she also has the girth quite far forward, and when you look at the seat it doesnt look level at all, it looks very downhill, but feels absolutly level and fine when your on, and she hasnt got a problem at all. She came back from the riding school because she was getting antsy when she was groomed or tacked up and I noticed muscle wastage by her withers, since using the Trekker I havent had any problems with her, ive even used the Ansurs on her with success.

I would just listen to what shes telling you, try the saddle back and see what she says, try the pommell block, try a different padding arangement, youll soon know what she prefers :)

[Showjumper]

Backwards just a bit :)

[Drummers mum]

This thread has really made me look at my pics and analyse where my saddle is!

[notpoodle]

just a little update. she seems happier with the pommel back in and didnt take a swip when i tacked up today! i will make a witherprofile though and send it to the barefoot people to see if we maybe need the wider pommel!

julia
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