A difficult question for all horse owners- euthanasia

[Arabesque]

Please, if this is a particularly sensitive subject for you right now, do not read the topic. This is not posted to distress those already having a worrying time with their beloved horse and pony.

I was just thinking that almost everyone who owns horses must consider this issue at some time in their lives. It's a difficult subject and I hope this isn't too upsetting but all responsible owners will have their own thoughts often about it. So I hope it's not too untoward to discuss it. Personally I've made the decision for many small pets over the years and cried over each and every one of them.

As we all know it's not always cut and dried what's best for the horse so in some circumstances the owner must wrestle with all the options and then make the decision they feel is best for their own horse- there's often not a right and wrong answer.

My own friend struggled to get her mare through an illness which recurred and led to losing her that second time around. However some people told her she should have euthanised her mare when she first got the illness and was given a prognosis of 60% chance of recovery. I reassured her that they were wrong. The mare was still 'herself', cheeky and interested the first time around. The second she was losing the will to survive, and that was clear, so my friend made her hard decision.

Some less clear situations I have thought of that may affect people include;

The horse becomes unrideable but is still sound for retirement

The horse suffers some mishap (accident etc.) that makes it unmanageable by anyone but the owner and at times potentially dangerous.

The owner of an elderly or frequently unsound horse becomes compromised through injury or illness and is struggling to care for the horse financially and/or physically

The horse suffers recurrent illness with varying short periods of very good health

EDIT
*These are all situations where Euthanasia is often an option given.*

I would like your thoughts on this and what you would be inclined to do if any of the odd situations arose for you- any reasons you feel particularly strongly about the best thing to do from your personal perspective.

I hoped a discussion like this might help people to think about what they might do and never have to make a decision under sudden pressure- I know since losing her first horse my friend has made plans for 'if the worst came' with her second.

[eventerbabe]

i've spoken about this a few times with my vet as regards Bonnie. i suppose she could now be classed as a severe laminitic. she has slight rotation and founder in both front feet, but the damage to her hoof capsule is much worse than the internal damage. my mum, the vet and myself decided that we did not want her to suffer, and if she ever foundered/rotated badly we'd have her PTS. fortunately she's now stabilised and her feet are coming along a treat, look almost normal now. i know deep down that she won't survive another laminitis attack so now that she's healthy, laminitis free and on an even keel we take each day as it comes and just enjoy having her :)

Some less clear situations I have thought of that may affect people include;
The horse becomes unrideable but is still sound for retirement
i suppose this is similar to my situation. my mare is sound, healthy and enjoying inhand work. whether we can ride her i'm still not 100% convinced, mainly coz i believe i may be too heavy for her even though i rode her quite happily before her last attack. but its never been an option to have her PTS just coz we might not ride her again. she doesn't owe us anything, and if she can live out a happy semi-retirement with us then thats all we ask for.

although i'd do everything i could financially and treatment wise to help my horses, you need to know where to draw the line and if they had a poor chance of survival or would have no quality of life then i think its kinder to have them PTS.

[Mehitabel]

The horse becomes unrideable but is still sound for retirement

can i afford to keep it in retirement? will it be happy retired? if not, then i'd rather PTS than potentially fall victim to one of these scams you hear about of alleged retirement homes where horses are doped up and sold as riding horses.
i also know some horses who have been utterly miserable in retirement and who needed to be out and doing things to be happy. a friend retired her horse and he went downhill very fast - he looked depressed, lost weight, stifened up hugely. with hindsight, he'd have been better off being PTS at once - but of course you never know that until you try. i know she feels terribly guilty for letting him suffer, even though there was no way she could have foreseen it.

The horse suffers some mishap (accident etc.) that makes it unmanageable by anyone but the owner and at times potentially dangerous.

i'd certainly PTS rather than sell on in this situation. if i can safely manage it and it is happy, then i'd carry on - but once quality of life goes then that's it.

The owner of an elderly or frequently unsound horse becomes compromised through injury or illness and is struggling to care for the horse financially and/or physically

again it's the same argument as in the first - i'd rather the horse was PTS than risk mistreatment by selling or gifting to a 'retirement home'. if my horse isn't valuable to someone objective, if the chances are slim of it finding a good home where it can be loved and useful enough to guarantee a good end to its days, then i'd rather end it now. i don't think they see the future like us, i don't think that they think 'i'm only 15, i ought to have another 15 years life' - they live in the present and if each present moment isn't good, then we have some hard thinking to do.

The horse suffers recurrent illness with varying short periods of very good health
how miserable is it when it's ill? is the majority of life happy, or suffering? that's what i'd take into consideration.

[chev]

Mehitabel's said what I feel really so I won't type it all out all over again.

We're facing this now with Gelfy - he's had more x-rays taken now and we're waiting to find out how much damage there is in his stifles. If it's mainly his hocks causing problems, we'll try over the next few months to see if we can get him sound - if his stifles are anywhere near as bad, he'll be PTS at the end of the summer. There are a few reasons - and although it sounds brutal, cost is one. I've had two claims for his joints already and can't get insurance that will cover further treatment, so I have to cover all costs myself. When he's on bute already, and we have x-rays to pay for now, and probably nerve-blocking in the next couple of weeks, and then steroid injections in his hocks if it's going to help - it does cost.

There's also the issue of how much I'm prepared to put the pony through to keep him going too. He's not the best patient in teh world, does get upset at too much meddling, and in spite of the fact that he's still very young, I don't think that I can compromise his mental well-being just to keep him going physically.

[chapsi]

This is never an easy solution. And, when you finally decide, you are likely to be left with the agravation of your loss and bereavement clouded by an dreadful feeling of guilt, that you killed your beloved friend.
I think this decision take a lot of courage on anybody's behalf. One decides with a broken heart.

I owned a horse for over 2 1/2 years, who displayed unpredictable, dangerous behaviour. He had mood swings, stops, was extremely agressive and could be a vicious biter too. After years of struggling, for both me and those who handled him, we found out what the matter was (he had a hormonal malfunction). He went through 2 operations; on the second I decided in advance with the vet that it would be kinder for all involved to leave him asleep if the surgery proved unsucessful.
So it was.

I was devastated, severely depressed, as I loved my horse dearly. The sense of loss is still there, but at least I now came to terms with my sense of guilt, and I realise I acted in a responsible and humane manner.
I no longer regret my option, as I KNOW I did everything I could.

[Dolly_Brat]

I think if your horse is suffering and the only option to relieve it is euthanasia then it's the responsible thing to do. However i don't really agree with if your horse becomes unrideable yet manageable that it should be put down. If i were to have a horse that had to be retired i would definately try to give it the best retirement possible. What i wouldn't do is just turn it out in the field and leave it to graze. I would continue to keep it active for example taking it for walks and so forth. I have a friend who did that with her veteran and he was perfectly happy. However that is just my opinion.

[sidesaddlelady1]

If the horse is not suffering there is an alternative to euthanasia. Organisations such as HAPPA and the ILPH will take on horses if the owner is no longer able to cope. They do not put horses down unless it is in the animal's best interests. If the horse is suitable they will re-home it on a loan basis with regular inspection or if that isn't an option they will keep the horse at one of their centres. They appreciate it if you can also make a donation but will not turn away your horse if money is the only problem.

I have gifted my horse to the ILPH in my will to ensure his future and if I ever become unable to care for him on a permanent basis he will also go to them. If you are interested in this they will send you further info.

Incidentally, if you live in the north west (UK) the ILPH is having an open day at Penny Farm at Blackpool on September 10th. All sorts of displays including the Kings Troop. Royal Artillery who use an ILPH rescue horse in their gun carriage team.

[Mehitabel]

personally though, i'd rather leave the ilph's funds, time and resources to neglected horses. i wouldn't put a horse down if it wasn't in its best interests either.

[chev]

And there are some horses who, even though they might not be suffering, might not cope so well with a new home anyway.

I read a heartbreaking story a while back on another board, where someone who'd been diagnosed with a terminal illness had arranged to have her two elderly but healthy horses put down before she died. They'd been with her all their lives, had never known another home, and were very closely bonded - even though both were fit and healthy she felt it would be unfair to put them through the trauma of rehoming. Although she was critisized by some, I have to admit I felt it was a very brave decision - and in that case, the right one.

[augermoon]

Just a comment worth noting. The equine rehab places such as the ILPH, Ada Cole etc are often full to the brim with horses that have come in for re-homing or others that simply cannot be re-homed. I work for such a charity and we have over 100 on our books waiting to come in and are reguarly having to turn people away. I cannot comment on the 'gifting in the will' situation, as I am not familiar with how it works, but in a normal situation, you cannot really guarantee that centres like these will have room to take your horse in should you find that you cannot keep it. Horses and ponies that can still be ridden can often be taken in and re-homed easily but it is more tricky when the horse can only be re-homed as a non-rideable companion. There are hundreds and hundreds of horses and ponies in this situation and they can be very hard to re-home. Centres already have loyalty to their own 'loan' horses and have to make allowances to be able to take them back should their 'loan owners' no longer be able to have them. Hence the sad reality is that there is often just not enough room to be able to offer a home for life to any companion horse that needs it.

[Mehitabel]

And there are some horses who, even though they might not be suffering, might not cope so well with a new home anyway.

I read a heartbreaking story a while back on another board, where someone who'd been diagnosed with a terminal illness had arranged to have her two elderly but healthy horses put down before she died.

yep, 'best interests' goes way further than 'is this horse in unendurable pain right now'.
copper is 'elderly and healthy' - while he is very useful to the riding school, he certainly wouldn't sell on the open market and if it came to that, i'd have him PTS. he is fit, sound and healthy - but 22, blemished, can't jump due to an old injury, bad to catch in some circumstances, suspicious due to previous mistreatment, bad to load, won't be clipped.
as things are, if i get run over by a bus tomorrow, YO gets him in my will and has said he will live out his days with her on the riding school - but i also have her word that should anything mean that he can't stay with her, he will go to sleep. it'd be profoundly unfair on him to do anything else.

[eventerbabe]

this thread has thrown up some interesting points. must admit, i'd never considered what i'd want done with them if (god forbid!) something was to happen to me. something i should really start thinking about i suppose.........

chev, what a heartbreaking story. but that lady did what was best for her horses. must admitt, doubt either of mine would cope if sold on. bonnie is such a quirky little character i doubt there are many who'd put time into getting to know her. and toby has floored every "strange" person who's ridden him, except my instructor and even then he had a bloody good try. wouldn't be fair to uproot them if the unforseen did happen. i can completely see that lady's point of view.

[Loopslou]

As most of you know I went through all this very recently with my Flashie, its 4 weeks tomorrow since she was PTS but now seems a lifetime away.

From the minute I bought Flash I told my family that if she was suffering unduly in any way that they were to sit me down and tell me to wise up and do the kindest thing.

When I changed to my current vet 6 or 7 years ago I told him the same thing, when the time comes for him not to let me get sentimental and hold out to fading hopes.

My vet would do anything but put an animal to sleep BUT also wouldn't have you throwing good money after bad.

Flash suffer a severe bout of colic last November which lasted on and off for a week, she then took jaundice and liver failure. She rallied over the winter and hand total rest just milling about the field and in at night. She didn't take laminitis this year until the very end when she took a toxic bout. She was abelt o be ridden about half a dozen times during the spring but then started to suffer with mastitis and then the jaundice came back and I knew that she was just giving up. To be honest, I was always sceptical when people said that your horse will let you know when they've had enough but not any more, I know Flash was telling me she'd had enough, I could see it in her eyes everytime she looked at me. she would whinney when I left the yard with Amber and I knew she hated not being able to get out and about. I tried walking her out in hand about 4 weeks before she was PTS and I thought she was going to collapse on the road.

You do need to have an action plan in your head, in fact, write down what you want done and let family and perhaps your yard owner know what you want done, you can't be sure that you will be there when the time comes for one reason or another. Things like, do you want your horse rugged, do you want a piece of tail cut (I did that and am getting a bracelet made). Has the carcass to go to the hunt or the renderers? Things like that may sound trivial but if you have them on paper at least its there in black and white.

Everyone has said to me that I was very brave getting Flash PTS and for staying with her, I wasn't brave, I was just doing an old friend and big favour. Also, many people have a wish that the decision will be taken out of their hands and that they will arrive at the yard one day and their old friend will have passed away through the night - the liklihood of that happening is exceptionally slim. Besides that, I think I would have been worse if Flash had passed away, at least with euthanasia I got to say goodbye and I know I was the last thing she saw before she died.

[chapsi]

at least with euthanasia I got to say goodbye and I know I was the last thing she saw before she died

I visited my horse the night before the fatal operation. He knew what was going to happen, and he made his farewell to me. This was one of the most intensive, yet dramatic and emotional moments of my life. I was there for him, and despite the pain it caused me, I'm glad I was there, as he appreciated the chance to say goodbye. My vet also phoned the next day, just as he was about to increase the lethal dosis of anaesthetic. That moment, he was with him in thoughts.

[Stella2]

I have thought this through in relation to my mare, so I can comment in relation to her.

If she was suffering with a chronic condition or had lost her pleasure in life, I would have her put to sleep at home by injection. If she couldn't be ridden, I would retire her, but I would keep her. She loves to be out, so if possible, I would retire her to grass livery. She is currantly on full livery. I can't see why that would need to continue in retirement, but if it did, then so be it, I would just have to make the sacrifice of not having another to ride on full livery! My instructor loves her and has land. She is a very trustworthy, ethical woman and I have told her and my family, that should anything happen to me, Flora will be gifted to my instructor. If she is well she will work in a few lessons (my instructor is mainly freelance with folk riding their own, so her lesson horses don't do many hours a week). When she can't work, she will just live out her days there safely. I have given family members strict instructions that she is not to be sold.

Its quite emotional to think it all through and make plans isn't it, but I certainly felt I had an obligation to Flora to do that.

[Loopslou]

but the main thing is Stella is that you have laid out your plans and that more than one family member knows what those plans are - very hard to do but at least its one worry out of the way if (god forbid) something does happen.

[Stella2]

but the main thing is Stella is that you have laid out your plans and that more than one family member knows what those plans are - very hard to do but at least its one worry out of the way if (god forbid) something does happen.

Thanks Lou, not only that, but this thread sent me straight to Microsoft Word to put the details down in writing to place with my Will, so the family won't have to struggle to remember exactly (her name & contact details etc). So thanks for the thread Arabesque.

[Arabesque]

Isn't it wonderful that we have such genuine and caring owners and riders on this board? I've been really emotional reading some of your responses and admire everyone who went through this with their own..

Since I started the thread I better comment on some of the scenarios I mentioned and what got me started thinking this in the first place..


The horse becomes unrideable but is still sound for retirement

You know, I'm sure a lot of us would want to think we could try and keep our horse in retirement. But as M has said, some horses are not suited by it and for some it proves totally detrimental to their health and wellbeing.

Scenario I heard of at a yard I helped out at briefly;

A woman owned a horse for a few years. The horse was an ex-racehorse mare who had suffered on and off stiffness- arthritic changes- and problems with one specific hock. After a while with hock trouble worsening the woman elected to stop riding her horse but wanted to keep her in retirement. The mare began to become even stiffer and was clearly having trouble with her arthritis. She managed until winter and a bout of mud fever- which she got very badly due to her white legs. She was being kept in. The stiffness increased and worsened. The horse could barely leave her stable. The yard owners wanted her put down. The owner would not do it. Eventually the mare was clearly suffering to the point that even the owner would acknowledge. They agreed to have her put down. She was so stiff on the day that they could only just get her out of her box- she could not even walk to the grass verge where the yard horses were usually put down (all shot, the hunt was their disposal service) and they had to close in all the horses in their stables and shoot her there on the yard. Poor girl. :(

I believe with the hard work and care that most loving owners will provide, a horse can be kept in retirement very happily.

I also agree that some horses, like the one I described, may have too many problems that retirement will exaggerate, to be retired to any quality of life.

One trend I have become aware of in terms of retiring horses, is virtual neglect in the guise of retirement. I know a woman who retired one of several horses, and more or less left her to it. She was fed and turned out and brought in and mucked out, but no one brushed her or fussed over her or even acknowledged her existence. It was so sad to see. I brushed her once, she was so pathetically pleased she would have stood there all day, untethered.

Even worse than that is something I have seen more rarely, but HAVE SEEN, and that is where the owner seems to resent the horse they have retired, as if they have done their duty but the horse is just a burden to them. They don't spend time with their horse. They don't smile when they speak of them. They don't rush up to the yard to see them and sometimes they start to snap and yell at the horse when working around them. That's very, very sad. The poor horse.

So I guess a horse being sound enough to retire at that time is only part of the story.

For myself my horse when I get him or her will be mine to the end of his or her days, and I hope through careful riding I will be able to keep them going into very late life- but through accident or injury, I would want to keep them as long as we were happy together, never sell them of course, and enjoy spending time with them.


The horse suffers some mishap (accident etc.) that makes it unmanageable by anyone but the owner and at times potentially dangerous.

As I have always hoped to keep my horse on part livery, this one is difficult for me. I'd have to take the horse out of part livery and see if I could manage him or her myself. If the danger factor involved charging randomly at people and attacking strangers when out.. I'd have to take responsibility and have them put down, rather than have to live with their killing someone.

It's not as far fetched as it sounds! The thing that got me thinking this was a story I had seen somewhere about a stolen pony recovered in appalling condition, beaten, thin and exhausted. As his strength returned he proved absolutely dangerous towards men- if in a box he would run at them and try and kick them, even outside sometimes- if approached by a man he would bolt wildly or lunge at them. I don't remember if they ever got him over that- heaven only knows what happened to the poor mite to cause that reaction.


The owner of an elderly or frequently unsound horse becomes compromised through injury or illness and is struggling to care for the horse financially and/or physically

I can't see that my horses, if I were in this condition, would have much chance of a good future, however well they had managed up till then. I'd be keen to gift them to a good friend or relative if I could- and pay anything I could afford towards them. If this was not possible and I knew I could no longer care for them, I'd have to make the sad decision to have them put down.

The horse suffers recurrent illness with varying short periods of very good health
Agree with M on this one- the nature of it's illness and how it affected the horse and whether it was leading a good quality of life in between would be all important- probably consult my friends and my vet for honest opinions.


Chapsi I think I must have been away when all this happened but I could swear I remember the horse you are talking of- you were having trouble with him when I was here a while ago now. I wondered how it turned out for you both. I think you were incredibly brave and responsible to try so hard to help him and then to make the best choice for him.

[CityGirl]

I am in agreement with Mehitable so will just say "ditto".

For me, once quality of life is impacted, I would put an animal to sleep. I also have to say, I don't know that I would spend thousands of dollars on rehabbing/treating a horse who might not be sound. In all honesty, if insurance wouldn't cover treatment, I would seriously weigh my options before embarking on any instensive treatment/surgery.

I love my pets. I will do everything I can for them. BUT, I also believe that there are thousands of healthy animals who are PTS every day b/c they don't have an owner. I think that in many cases, money spent rehabbing a chronically lame, ill, whatever animal could be better spent elsewhere.....

[smiler22]

Ok, Oscar had very severe arthritis, and, even if we did decide to retire him he would have no quality of life. You could see there was so brightness in his eyes, no gleem in his coat, he was nothing but a shell. He was 12 but looked about 30.

So yes, I do believe that sometime, there are cases to which euthanisia can happen.

[Cheko]

I used to have 12 cats, all very much loved and very well cared for. One by one they got too ill to do anything more for so, one by one I had to have them put down. So I guess if I had to have Falcon put down (if there was no other way) I would.. It does affect you though very much. (I think of them all very often.) It certainly doesn't get any easier. However, no matter how much you miss that individual pet (whatever it is) you will no doubt get another, may be the same breed, colour or whatever but compeltely different but you'll love it just the same.

[Esther.D]

Pablo is only 10, he is currently effectively retired due to his back problems and emotional issues from his past. He is staying with us for life...but if we could no longer keep him and there was no-one we trusted implicitly to take him on then we would have him put to sleep. He has been through too much in his life to risk falling into the wrong hands and being sold as a riding horse as he looks fit, healthy and apparently rideable - thus putting some innocent purchaser at risk as well as putting him under unbearable and unfair stress as well as pain :(

[Wally]

Ugla is 15, retired through arthritis, she is permanently lame but fat and (at the moment) happy enough.

Frances and I are in two minds, to have her put to sleep before winter sets in and her pain gets worse with the cold, or wait and pray we don't find her in acute distress in the middle of the night in a force 12 with rain which makes your head bleed.

Ljóssie is 19 now, he has MEGA issues about- just about everything. If he became unsound he'd have to be put down simply because he'd find all the hukman intervention too much, he'd get over load. As it is he can cope with humans so long as he never has to meet one for more than a couple of hours a day...and that's me whom he trusts, nobody else can catch him! It took me 3 years to get that far with him.

[sidesaddlelady1]

as things are, if i get run over by a bus tomorrow, YO gets him in my will and has said he will live out his days with her on the riding school - but i also have her word that should anything mean that he can't stay with her, he will go to sleep. it'd be profoundly unfair on him to do anything else.

I'd be happy with that arrangement but not everyone has that option. The ILPH the "gift in will" arrangement works in that you fill in a form and send it to them when you make the will so they are fore-warned even if you make it years before you snuff it. Obviously you need to keep them up-dated. The scheme is widely advertised by the ILPH so they must be able to cope with it.

I have also lodged a letter with my yard owner with copy to my solicitor, requesting that if anything happens to me suddenly the yard will look after the WH as long as is necessary/until the estate is settled and will be reimbursed out of my estate. Obviously you need to clear it with the YO before doing this.

[sidesaddlelady1]

Ok, Oscar had very severe arthritis, and, even if we did decide to retire him he would have no quality of life. You could see there was so brightness in his eyes, no gleem in his coat, he was nothing but a shell. He was 12 but looked about 30.

So yes, I do believe that sometime, there are cases to which euthanisia can happen.

Of course euthanasia is the kindest thing in many circumstances but not on purely financial reasons - "my horse can't be ridden and I can't/don't want to afford the expense of kkeeping him as a companion"

[Persona]

Echo Mehitabel. I have an aged mare (30ish) who has been retired for the last 2 years and has non-specific arthritis (all joints), navicular, cushings and thus is prone to laminitis, her teeth are disintegrating and she is looking depressed and, most of the time, disinterested. She has been having bi-monthly Vet visits to monitor her, but this is her last season with us - last winter she struggled walking in the fields after we had had rain and the ground became slippery and she isn't happy being in the stable for longer than the 'normal' night period. In September or October she will take her journey to rainbow bridge. She has been with me for 13 years and although this is a hard decision I am convinced it is the right one for her - even if not for me.

[LindaAd]

I have two retired horses, as well as two semi-retired. Of the retired ones, one is very old (we don't know how old, but he's outlived his teeth!); he enjoys life, and he enjoys his feeds. If he ever started to be in pain, and it wasn't something the vet or the farrier could deal with, he would be PTS. He does get foot abcesses (used to have brilliant feet), but they generally clear up pretty fast, with some help from the farrier.

The other is only about 15, young and fit, but permanently lame after an injury to the cartilage in his stifle. He's enjoying his retirement; because I'm keeping him, I haven't got room to keep another horse to ride, which is very sad for me. But I can't see there's any alternative.

Linda

[charlotte+jill!]

This thread has really made me think.....

If Scooby was ever in an undue amount of pain I would have him PTS no questions asked. He has given and shown me so much in a small amount of time I would owe it to him.

This is a very personal thing and has come to me after what someone else had said. If he got something that would in time reder him in pain/suffering, I would take him out for a last day out hunting and have him PTS and sent to the kennels. Then he would pass away with his last day being something that he loved and enjoyed whole heartedly. That may sound horrible to some but I believe if he could tell me, that is how he'd perfer to go, he loves his work and he loves hunting.

Also I feel that if he had to be retaired he would loose all life, that spark that makes him, him would disappear, and I would have him PTS. Of course I woud see how he copes, but he just loves to work and be challeged.

Now the if anything happened to me....... I would gift him to my instructor/my yard owner. That yard is his home. He loves its there. My instructor used to event him she would get years of joy and happiness out of him and then I know he would be her sons, he would also get years of happiness and joy from Scooby.

[Bea]

I completely agree with putting horses to sleep when they are in a lot of pain and will not recover. But I'm really surprised reading about people who will put their horses to sleep when they can't look after them any longer, even if there is nothing wrong with the horse! To me, it sounds arrogant and egocentric thinking that your horses will only be happy living with you, and nobody else. To be honest, I don't think the horse really cares that much, as long as he/she is being looked after properly. Sure, the horse will need some time to settle in a new environment and with a new owner, but most horses will be fine after a while. I think owners like to think they are more important to their horse than they actually are...

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I feel quite strongly about this and felt I had to say something. Everybody else seemed to agree with that woman who put her 2 horses to sleep, without even trying to find a new home for them.

[Mehitabel]

it depends on the horse, bea.
what if you have a horse who to an observer looks sound, but has issues that mean he can't be ridden? do a search for esther d's posts about pablo, and you'll see an example. if he were to be rehomed, because he looks fine, it's be very easy for someone to try to ride him, and that'd be a disaster and very unfair on him.

or take my horse copper - would *you* buy him if you were looking? 22, blemished with a fat leg from cellulitis and scars on two legs, can't jump due to an old injury, bad to catch, suspicious to be handled due to previous mistreatment, bad to load, won't be clipped, needs sedation for vet treatment. if i, or the executors of my will should i be run over by that bus, advertised him for sale - would he be terribly likely to get a decent caring home?

i quite agree that with most horses it'd be unfair - but believe me when i say that those of us who have made that decision haven't taken it lightly.

petal - absolutely - she's 12, fantastic breeding, great competition record, shoes, clips, catches, loads, goes, stops, there are no ifs or buts about her, she's bred 2 fantastic foals. she is a very saleable horse, valuable in her own right. if she were to be PTS rather than sold, yes, that'd be terrible. she has an awful lot to offer and it's very obvious that she does - if she were to be advertised in nag and dog this week we'd have a string of buyers and she has enough value that she would easily make herself loved and cherished, and her owners would have the incentive to do the right thing by her in the future.

but copper? not so much. he has no market value at all, regardless of how much i adore him, and what future would he have elsewhere? chances are it's be a market, teeth filed to take some years off his age, and off to a dealer with no knowledge of his history, jumped on a dodgy tendon most likely, because he does love jumping, and then what?

what kind of repayment is that for 17 years? i'd rather he went to sleep at his own home, where he is happy and secure and then i know he will never be mistreated - with his history and condition, he is a prime candidate for mistreatment through rehoming.
i have no rose tinted specs on about my ownership - i've sold in the past, and would do so again - but not copper.

[Bea]

Mehitabel, I understand what you are saying, and I understand that it is a risk to sell on or give away a horse, especially a non ridable one. But would you really rather take their life??? Maybe I'm naive, but I think the chances of something terrible happening to a horse after it gets sold are not that big. Not big enough to justify taking their life instead. Surely the majority of people is actually trustworthy and will look after the horse properly?

The impression that I got from several people that replied to this thread is that their horses are actually ridable and healthy, but that they think they are the only ones that can ride/handle them. I realise in some very exceptional cases this might be true, but I think the majority of horses can and will form a relationship with any suitable, experienced owner.

[eventerbabe]

come try ride my horse, he'll have you on the floor in minutes ;) as mehitabel points out, those who have said they'd rather have their horses PTS have thought it through and not taken the decision lightly. i wouldn't sell mine, i'd rather have them gifted to a trusted friend or PTS because i could never sell them. i have a perfectly healthy little mare whos laminitic. she needs careful monitoring, feeding and shod once every 4 weeks. not many people would put such effort into looking after a pony like that. i do coz i've had her for 13 of her 16 years. call me what you will, but my horses welfare is paramount and NO ONE knows them better than my mum and i.

its very naive to expect a horse thats been with an owner a considerable length of time to suddenly forget that and form a bond with a new owner. in my experience, that just doesn't happen. my old loan pony used to scream for me when he came back to the yard. i'd had him 4 years and he'd been away from me for 2. we had a special bond and he certainly didn't forget that. he also became unrideable in his new home as he was too strong for kids to ride and kept throwing their mum. i am 100% certain it was because he was totally miserable. have you ever seen a depressed horse? not a nice sight :(

[chev]

Sorry bea, I can't agree. The lady did get an awful lot of critisism for having her two PTS - but they were elderly (at least mid twenties, and I think one was older than that), very closely bonded and had known no other home since they were foals. She didn't want to put them through the trauma of being rehomed, maybe separated - even if kept together it's unlikely they'd be kept solely as a pair, even by a charity. They'd had a fantastic life and her feeling was that it was better to end it having had a fantastic life, having known no stress or upset than put them through what would be, for them, a terrible upheaval. Neither was used to going out anywhere - it would have been hellish to have to start again. Yes, they may have settled in time - but they may not.

If I was unable to keep my horses or look after them, the vast majority would go to a new home. Lili, Tally, the two foals, Rhodri, Andy, Tia - they're all fit, healthy ponies who would settle well with someone new and have a long and happy life elsewhere.

Dot... well, Dot's a difficult one. She's feral, more or less - she's highly unlikely to make a riding or driving pony, she has serious mental issues that may well never be fully addressed. With us she'll have a useful life as a broodie - but I cannot guarantee that if she was sold on that she'd find a suitable home in the future. There are hundreds of potential companions already desperate for homes out there - why on earth would I want to add to an already serious welfare problem? What is so wrong with taking responsibility for a horse's future in this way? She wouldn't know, or care, that she hadn't had twenty odd extra years of life. She'd just have known a great life with us. I saw the effect settling into a new home had on Dot. Why should I put her through that all over again?

And Gelfy. To all intents and purposes a young, useful gelding with a potentially long and useful life. In reality, has serious (and mainly hidden) soundness problems, some potentially dangerous attitudes, and although we manage him well it's only through years of trial and error that we've worked around his quirks.

I would never be so arrogant as to think I'm the only person who could offer my horses a good home. But I don't believe that life is sacred above all else; I have a responsibility to my animals to make sure that I can guarantee their care for the rest of theri lives, one way or another. And in horses where that care needs to be more specialised and I cannot guarantee they'd get it, it's my responsibility to make sure they don't end up suffering - however I achieve that.

No - I'd never put a healthy horse to sleep. But healthy doesn't just mean physically healthy. There are people I'd trust with Dot; and if one of them could take her if I couldn't have her any more, then I'd let her go. But finding homes for ponies like Dot is very difficult.

[Mehitabel]

Mehitabel, I understand what you are saying, and I understand that it is a risk to sell on or give away a horse, especially a non ridable one. But would you really rather take their life??? Maybe I'm naive, but I think the chances of something terrible happening to a horse after it gets sold are not that big. Not big enough to justify taking their life instead. Surely the majority of people is actually trustworthy and will look after the horse properly?

The impression that I got from several people that replied to this thread is that their horses are actually ridable and healthy, but that they think they are the only ones that can ride/handle them. I realise in some very exceptional cases this might be true, but I think the majority of horses can and will form a relationship with any suitable, experienced owner.

yes, it's a risk, and it's always a risk. but the younger and healthier the horse, the less of a risk it is. as i said - would *you* buy copper, on the desciption above? would you advise anyone else to? if someone posted on here saying that they were going to view a horse of that description, then what would everyone say? don't touch with a bargepole.

so those things put the risk right up - he isn't desirable to a good home, which means he is easy prey to a bad one - especially if it were a non-horsey husband who's just been widowed, for example (back to the run over by a bus scenario), selling, and not a loving owner who knows what to look for in a scam buyer. my rideable, healthy and valuable-in-herself horse, yes, sell, definitely. but not the currently rideable and healthy but elderly and grumpy and previously mistreated one. if i'm lucky he has 10 more years of work in him - at 32, i would expect him to be severely limited in what he can do. if i'm unlucky he might start showing his age more this winter and need to retire in 2 years - the last couple of years he has gotten very grey, he has sagged, lost muscle tone, and he looks his age now, whereas three years ago he didn't. so he's a big gamble for someone to buy.

like chev says - he has had a good life with me and yes, at this stage, i would end it rather than take the risk.
yes, the majority of people are trustworthy. but the majority of people also won't want my horse, or gelfy, or dot, or eventerbabe's bonnie, for all the reasons given above. a cynical dealer will realise that and go for an advert like him to make a fast profit. i've heard a lot of stories about alleged retirement homes who sell their charges on by lying about their ages, doping them and filing teeth etc.

as eventerbabe points out - we take care of our oldies because they have given us a huge amount - i owe copper an incalculable debt. assuming no buses get me, i will give him the best care possible for as long as he is happy. i owe that to him because of his long service and years of love - if i sold him tomorrow, his new owner wouldn't have that attachment or debt to him - they'd want their money's worth, and fair enough - who wouldn't.

i do agree that putting a healthy, rideable and *saleable* horse with a bright future to sleep is selfish. but it's equally or more selfish and cowardly IMO to sell or gift away (not to a friend - to a stranger) an elderly horse who doesn't have many years left in them, because you don't want to make that decision.

i know someone on another board who took on a 30 year old horse, it worked out well, she loves the mare and is great for her - but i must say i still don't think much of the mare's previous owners. the mare was very lucky, but it could so easily have not been.

[Bea]

Eventerbabe and Chev, I completely understand your arguments and I can see why you think that way, but I am not convinced. I don't want to get into an argument, so I think we will just have to agree to disagree. :-)

Let's hope none of us ever have to make decisions like this!

Edit: Mehitabel, I guess the only good solution for an old/unridable horse would be to give it to someone as a companion horse. But I realise that there is not much demand for those, and you would still have to trust the new owner not to sell the horse on... It's a tough one!

[chev]

Trying to rehome my little sec A mare is what made me really think about this. I had her advertised for loan or sale (at £200) to a good home. She's not suitable as a first ridden (too strong and spooky) although she's fantastic on the lead. Not quite good enough to show at county level, although she'd do ok at local shows. Needs careful weight management but never had laminitis. Has a scar on one cornea. Not really breeding quality (although there are a lot worse out there). Over twelve months of advertising I had people offering me homes where she'd have "loads of grass - we have ten acres", people asking me if I'd drop the price because she was blemished, people asking if she'd be ok for their 6 year old to show in first ridden classes. And that's a mare who has none of the issues the other two I have do. She's finally, after nearly two years, gone to a fantastic loan home who will give her a home for life with a very similar pony as a companion. She couldn't be in a better home.

So yes - even the difficult to home ponies can have a great future - but what would have happened if I'd died? Sometimes there isn't the facility to care for these ponies for the length of time it takes to find them a home. If she'd been sold to any one of the homes that were offered before the one she went to... it doesn't bear thinking about.

Unfortunately it's something I do have to think about - and it's something I've prepared for in my will, too. None of us know what's around the corner.

[chapsi]

Most of my life I was against euthanasia, until I had to start deciding very difficult issues. Bea,
I don't wish to sound patronising (I imagina I'm much older than you), but as we get older, more mature, we tend to look into life under a different light.
I used to hava a dog with an awful incurable disease. The vet, unscrupulous man , advocated 'when liufe lies, there is always hope'. My dog suffered horribly, for years and her death was very distraught for those you witnessed it. I was a teenager at the time, it was my selfish decision to keep her alive. These days I wouldn't think twice.

Going back to my beloved Pegs, hiis aggression made him was dangerous. I kept him, did the best for him, stood by him. Above all, I took a very responsable stand; I went against anybody's advice to sell him to a dealer or send him to slaughter; ethically I could not sell a horse like him, he could have hurted somebody seriously (or worse), and I could not put him down without coming to a point where I KNEW there was nothing more that one could do or hoped.
Would you imagine the risk of passing on a horse like him? specially in our country where horses with issues are not understood? He had already been severely abused, what kind of future could I hope for him? more abuse? knowing that one day he would end up as dog meat?
To my relief (but pain) the day came when his problem was diagnosed. After two operations, vet and I decided what was the most humane end, as there was no way out. He is free from his raging hormonal body now, at least he was spared the stress of going to the slaughterhouse.
I kept the promise I made him.

You see, all depends on personal options, on particular cases and situations.
Had I not have such a supportive and caring vet, who knows?!

[Bea]

Chapsi, I agree with you completely. When an animal has severe physical (or sometimes even psychological) problems, it is often best to put them to sleep. I also don't have any problems with human euthanasia (I'm from the Netherlands, and this is accepted and legal over there). My problem lies in putting healthy animals to sleep, although I do realise that it can be difficult to find suitable homes for some horses.

Another thing: sometimes, people PTS animals with medical issues that can be treated successfully, simply because they do not want to spend the extra time and money that the animal requires. My parents' dog has diabetes and needs expensive injections and quite a lot of care every day. As far as we can tell, he is not suffering at all: he is still happy and loves his walks in the woods. The vet told us that many people would opt for euthanasia in such cases, because of the costs and effort involved. I do not agree with this at all. When you decide to get a pet (or horse), you commit yourself to look after it, also when it gets ill or old. It is not some piece of furniture that you throw away when it is broken.

Chapsi, I am 25 by the way. My use of language may make me sound younger, but that would probably be because English isn't my first language...

[Tharg]

In real life the cost of things does matter, particularly if you have a family or some other financail constraint.

[chev]

Hmm. One of the big issues with Gelfy is cost. Yes, it does sound terrible, but I don't have unlimited funds, and insurance will no longer cover the cost of any expense because of his joint problems. He's cost me hundreds already, and will be costing me a few more hundred even if we can get him sound. Ok, so there's no guarantee that we could get Gelfy sound however much money I'm prepared to throw at him; but very few people have the money to treat a horse and damn the expense.

I do wholeheartedly agree that part of the responsibilty of owning an animal is to pay for care it needs; but some treatment is horribly expensive, and out of reach of some. My mother has a dog who is currently costing her around £20 a week in vet bills - that's on top of surgery he needed not so long ago that cost her nearly £600, and more surgery is on the cards. She lives on a disability pension of around £70 a week - her dogs want for nothing, she's an ex-veterinary nurse, and will go without to care for her animals. But there will come a point where she simply cannot afford the bills for that dog any longer, even though as long as he has these treatments he has a failry good life. So; does she have him PTS after a lifetime of real love and care and know she did the best by him, or does she hand him over to an over-stretched charity somewhere and cross her fingers that someone else will foot the bill?

[Kanuma]

haveing been in a similar situation to some of those mentioned above twice, you can never realy tell what is going to happen with a horse. on a side note; Bea have you ever been to a horse market (not one of the fancy ones, but one on a par with beeston etc) most of the horses that go through there are broken down old ponies who either go for meat or get taken by dealers and buted up. it would be much kinder to have them put to sleep.

as for my lot, if anything happened to me and my family (which is rather large) then:

Pride would be gifted to a friend who knows him well, he has been abused before and has taken enough chunks out of everyone (he has picked me up by my elbow before) for us all to know that if she couldnt take him then the kindest thing for him would be to have him PTS before he killed someone, he is healthy and happy but he is 23 and the only way now is down.
Harvey would also be gifted to said friend or perhaps gifted to a charity, he is 23 a gorgeous pony and very active, starting to stiffen up a bit, but would make an ideal 1st pony for a relatively competant person as he can get a bit wizzy.
stan would be sold back to his previous owner as i had to sign a contract with her saying that if it ever became nessecary for me to sell him she would be offered him first at half price.
Rian im not to sure about, he has lots of back problems and finds it difficult to be ridden other then hacking as he cant bend properly, he would also go to a friend but failing that would probably be PTS as in the wrong hands he could go bad very quickly and who wants a 15hh purebred neurotic arab, that has a 3 inch stride and massive back problems possible stifle problems and is a bit of a handful to handle.

if any of them needed retirement (due to injury etc) then they would stay here as a companion.
the 2 ive been through this situation with would be Squeak, he was my first proper pony, he got colic one day and it was bad, very bad infact, we had the option of takeing him to leahurst and haveing it opperated on. it was a 40min drive to leahurst, the vet gave us a 40% chance that he would survive the operation IF he survived the trip there. we decided that we would rather have him PTS at home then put him through that. it was good that we did, because when we got the autopsy results back he had a burst absess in his gut and had we taken him to have surgery he would have had to been PTS on the operateing table.
the other was with OSCAR, he was a gorgeouse 15.2hh hunter type that my mum had, he had been in a stable fire but after many years of care was physicaly fine capable of doing anything he could do before the fire. mentaly however he was a mess, if you went in his stable you had to go in in pairs (one to distract him and his teeth the other to get the headcollar on), he had a fence round his stable because he would come over the door at you. he associated people with the changeing of bandages which had obviousely been quite painful for him. mum tried everything with this horse, she turned him out in a secluded field with just one other horse, but he would still attack you if you went in and kids used to go into the field to pat the ponies. the crunch came when oscar came over his stable door at one of the stable girls, he picked her up by her ear, dragged her back over the stable door and shook her till her ear ripped off. mum decided at that point it was too risky to keep him around any longer, so he was PTS. he was only about 9 years old but in situations like that what would you have done???

[Cheko]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]My cat has diabetes and has to have injections twice a day but I wouldn't dream of having him put down. It's human nature to be judgemental towards what other people do. If I'd had my first horse put down when I couldn't afford to keep her any longer than perhaps she wouldn't have had to endure what she suffered at the hands of the so-called friend I sold her to and then banned me from ever seeing her again. So, one day when she was out dad and I went round her house to see my old horse and immediately contacted the RSPCA who, thank God took her away from the bitch!!!!

[Loopslou]

mine will pass over to the care of my stepdaughter and my sister in law. I've provisions made from my pension fund and life insurance to allow them to have the money to continue to care for them.

[vixtrix ward]

I have had to make the decision twice and personally speaking I took this view - "If he were out in the wild would the wolves get him?"

I know that might sound a little daft but nature had ways and means of dealing with the sick and the lame, and it was far kinder than what some of us so called caring owners do to them. It is the hardest decision we have to make but we do owe it to them. It is far easier (and more selfish) to shove your head in the sand and hope it will all get better.

Another horse on the yard was left far too late - the owner absolutely adored her and she went for nothing but watching her hobbling in from the yard with her head barely off the floor was horrific. It took another six months before the deed was done and she was in pain every day. That is a classic example of the owner letting a horse down!!

I miss my boys like hell but I know that I did the right thing. I had Henry PTS in 1999 - he was 32 and laminitic - it nearly killed me. (My dad died the next day as well so it turned out to be a rather nasty week all in all). I lost my soul mate Buster 3 years ago - he was 21 but an ex-grade A show jumper so had been put through his paces. I took him out for a walk in hand one day and if I had had a gun I would have shot him there and then - he was so tired of life.

So my advice would be - what would nature do? You know your own horse and it is quite easy to see when they have had enough. I also took photo's of both boys shortly before and it really helps to look back at them when I am feeling guilty - the photo's are a stark reminder of just how old and tired they were.

Vix.

[eml]

[QUOTE=vixtrix ward]I have had to make the decision twice and personally speaking I took this view - "If he were out in the wild would the wolves get him?"

This is a far better description of my views than I could have come up with!.

We retire all our horses/ponies from work when they for any reason make it clear that work no longer suits them. They then continue to live their normal life with their own stable being brought in, groomed, rugged up etc as they always have been. When they no longer enjoy this or cannot run around with the herd then it the time to PTS.

I am lucky I can have the luxury of doing this but if I could not I would rather put the old ones down than sell them on as dubious companions. Ask yourself how many genuine companion animals do you know?

[Loopslou]

I knew the end was nigh when Flash struggled to walk in hand to the corner and was being pushed up the field every night.

I have a friend who's pony has cushings and she just continues to put off the enivitable.

[alliecatalex]

I agree with what many of you have said. I think you have to think like a horse when dealing with the queston of puting a horse to sleep-"Would i want to live with _____(fill in the blank) if I were a horse?"

I think if the horse in unridable due to old age, you shouldnt just put it to sleep, but give it a choice of retirement and see how well it copes with it. I have a 36 year old mare, and although she is stiff, I can tell she still enjoys living. She eats fine, keeps weight on fine, and loves her carrots and baths!..she also gives the occasional bareback ride to very light kids who I babysit.

But I do volunteer at the zoo, and our oldest pony there is 29, and sometimes I wonder if she should just be PTS. She is greatly loved by everyone, though she needs constint care-she gets grain, timothy pellets and supplements, including weight gainder 24/7 (8-10 coffee cans a day!) And yet she is still ribby. If she is out with the herd she usually gets pushed around by the other horses, so she is usually kept inside or in her own little pasture. Also the only other pony that she got along with was her daughter who was 11. They had a really special and close bond, but sadly her daughter Bonnie died of a virus 5 days ago. :( I know the zoo keeper wont put her to sleep, but sometimes I wonder if that would be the best way to go.

I also work at a vet clinic, and 2 days ago we got a really disturbing call. Someone called asking if their perfectly healthy Jack Russell terrier could be PTS. Ummm "NO!" What were they thinking? The lady said that she was the care taker for three kids whos parents passed away. The lady didnt want to have the jack russell terrier because it was too hyper. (not its fault, its a jack russell-they tend to be hyper dogs) She said that since she was making the kids get ride of it, she told them that it had to be adopted out-but the kids didnt want that, they wanted it to be PTS to go to heaven and live with their parents. We told her that we will not put a healthy animal to sleep-that just isent right!

[Cheko]

I would like to think I'll be able to keep Falcon to the end of his days (like other people have said about their horses). However, in reality this hardly ever happens. Something occurs to prevent you doing this. As I've said I wont sell Falcon on but hopefully, the Fell Pony Society has a rescue policy. If they do, then he can go to them. What I dont want (as I've said before) is to pass him on to anyone. Nowadays with the attitude of many people towards animals, I (and I am sure others feel the same way) I would be very wary of letting anyone have any of my animals.

[Purdey33]

Had this conversation recently with someone whilst browsing The Veteran Horse Society website, seeing the many horses which are put on there for rehoming, well into their 20's or 30's and requiring vet care and medication. I know the purpose of their rehoming pages are for rehoming aged horses and many can go on for years healthy and active, but I personally would never pass a horse requiring medical attention on to someone else :(

[LindaAd]

I
I also work at a vet clinic, and 2 days ago we got a really disturbing call. Someone called asking if their perfectly healthy Jack Russell terrier could be PTS. Ummm "NO!" What were they thinking? The lady said that she was the care taker for three kids whos parents passed away. The lady didnt want to have the jack russell terrier because it was too hyper. (not its fault, its a jack russell-they tend to be hyper dogs) She said that since she was making the kids get ride of it, she told them that it had to be adopted out-but the kids didnt want that, they wanted it to be PTS to go to heaven and live with their parents. We told her that we will not put a healthy animal to sleep-that just isent right!

That is such a sad story! I can imagine that the poor children would rather think of their dog being in heaven with their parents than living with a stranger, but really it would be better if the carer could keep it. Still, I expect she's got her hands full with three orphans ...

Linda

[mogadoga]

Personally i wouldnt think about putting down my horse because of such things as authritus, it would just mean i would keep him retired and spend my time giving him nice grooming sessions and all my love.
If he was given a good percentage chance of recovery i would also not consider it.
Although if my horse is going to be in ALOT of pain, even on bute etc then i would not wish him that. As it would obviously make him very stressed.

I dunno, ive known alot of people faced with the option and 9/10 times it should really not be considerd at all.

Just my opinion..

[Loopslou]

I've never sold a horse of my own, I kept Flash until she passed away. I took a risk rescuing Amber from the RSPCA at 7 1/2 months - she could have turned out any way good or bad but I've had her 4 years today and now Meelou will live out the rest of his days with me too.

I think alot of people see horses as a commodity but I don't, call me sensitive but to me a horse is for life.

[Stella2]

I hear you Lou, but that can't always work for the less experienced rider who finds her/himself over-horsed. Sometimes its better for both rider and horse to go their separate way (bet you can tell that I speak from painful experience).

Once the relationship is established though I agree, my mare will be with me for life and if/when the day comes when I have to make the tough decision for her because she has lost the quality to her life, well, I expect it to be heartbreakingly tough and I hope we are both old by then (as I'm now 46 and she is 7).

[Mehitabel]

i think it's a little bit naive to say a horse is definitely for life. what if you lose your job/ your partner loses your job? you have to look after an elderly relative 24/7? or you split up with a partner and your finances don't work any more?

we never know what's round the corner, and while i think it's admirable to want to keep your horses, it's not always practical.
should i have kept my 11.2hh first pony who i got when i was 9? what kind of life would he have had doing nothing with me? his next owners had several kids, he was useful and happy for a lot longer than he would have been with me. i wouldn't have been able to afford 2, so couldn't have gotten a bigger one.

we keep horses to ride - not just for the joy of shovelling their sh!t. as much as we love them, they are suited to different things and if our ambitions don't match their strengths, then struggling on will just make everyone miserable.
how many people can find a horse who will be safe enough to be their first horse and still be suitable all the way through their riding career? what if they discover a passion for showjumping, or eventing, and their 14hh hairy cob can't do it?

it's a lovely notion, and if you get your first horse as an adult when you're not goign to grow any more, and you never end up having ambitoins beyond that horse's limits, then marvellous, i'm very happy for you. but plenty of peopel are not in that situation, and it's not helpful making them feel bad about it by getting on a soapbox about how horses are for life.

[chev]

Hmm. I had a few that were with me for life. Until, that is, our business collapsed after F&M, my Nain became ill and we had to move 200 miles to look after her and we lost our grazing. I sold the lot - had no other choice. I managed to keep May, Lili and Gelfy, and that was sheer luck.

Yes, in an ideal world, we'd keep them all for their long and useful lives; but this is not an ideal world, and we all have to make decisions based on our circumstances at the time.

[vixtrix ward]

i think it's a little bit naive to say a horse is definitely for life. what if you lose your job/ your partner loses your job? you have to look after an elderly relative 24/7? or you split up with a partner and your finances don't work any more? .

I don't think anyone is having a pop at people selling horses - this started out to help people make that hidous decision about calling the vet/hunt/zoo in.

Although I have had to make the decision twice I have also lost a horse naturally (poorly one night and dead in the stable by morning) and I am also in the process of selling my last one because I simply haven't the time to do the boy justice and the finances are getting a bit tight. So I can see all angles. But horses are really expensive animals and of course some people have to sell their loved ones and some sell because they don't like the horse either (expensive mistake).

As long as they are loved and looked after I don't think a horse much minds where it is living - never forget that they are nomads by nature and would actually move around given the choice!!!

[m100]

I have just had my 31 year old pony PTS because he had lost too many teeth, couldn't keep the weight on and consequently the vet advised he would not survive the winter.

He retired from work 4 years ago having been on loan to teach several kids to ride and then been hacked by my Mum for a couple of years, always lazy he let us know when he really didn't want to work for a living any more.

2.5 years ago we moved so I could no longer keep him on DIY livery accross the road. The set up in the 'posh' livery yard I found for my rideable boy, was not suitable for my old boy who needed to be mostly kept out due to dust allergies, but given access to to bucket loads of slop as he had lost teeth and couldn't manage hay.

I looked around at lots of alternatives and finally sent him to a private retirement livery in Cornwall. He remained mine, I could go and visit him and I paid a set price for his livery, food, feet trims wormer etc. They looked after him very well and he was happy. I saw him at the end of July and although physically declining he was still enjoying life. He was PTS before the weather changed and he was in any discomfort.

[Nickynoodles]

Hello all, I am new to this forumn and found this thread whilst searching the internet. I am blessed to be the owner of an 18hh Gelderlander called Bonno. I have had him for nearly five years now and I can honestly say this gentle giant has restored all my confidence in horses (I fractured my skull years ago on an evil arab!!)

When I was first looking for a horse, I scanned every paper every week - one week I accidently picked up a freeads paper from far away and this advert just jumped out at me. I rang (not realising how far away he was!) and the man explained that his horse was too gangly for the dressage he wanted to do, that he had had a very hard life competing at Hickstead in Puissance and he just wanted him to relax - no more competitions. I explained that we lived on a farm and what I wanted - he told me that if we did not go to see him we would regret it.

So, after nagging my husband for a couple of days (non-stop) we went to see him - My eyes nearly popped out of my head when I saw this giant!!!:eek: I am barely 5ft and he was massive - but the man showed me how kind and gentle he was. I rode him and was amazed at how responsive he was to each and every command I gave.

Well, the rest is a long story, but needless to say, I love this man from the bottom of my heart and its started to break......

Last winter, he went lame for the very first time, I called the vet out and he suggested a months box rest on bute. TBH, it did very little. I struggled all winter to keep his condition, which has always been hard as he is a terribly fussy boy! - but he pulled through albeit with a bit of muscle wastage (which if you know his breed, Gelderlanders look like giraffes with no bum!!);) He has been intermittently lame and every time the vet has said that its an old stifle injury (probably from his jumping days) and that at 20yrs, he would not operate and to just see how it goes.

I am more than happy for him to just retire but that is not so easy.... Now, if he lays down on his bad side, he cannot get up, so I have to constantly watch him, the vet says he is not in pain, but my farrier came to trim the boys (I also have a coloured cob) last week and could not lift his backs up at all - he thinks differently:( The vet said on the last visit that soon we may have to discuss options - I know what that means (crying again!) and would not ever want him to suffer but I cannot bear the thought of not having him in my life.

And, I am afraid I am facing the prospect of what to do with him!!
I know this is a terrible start to joining you all but if anyone can help as they have been there, it would be much appreciated.

Nicky xx
Here is my beloved Bonno with my 13yr old son Reece!!
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/nickynoodles33/BonnoReece.jpg

[entreat]

Better a week too early than a day too late.

[HorseLass]

I TOTALLY understand........ I've posted before about my old arab/tb gelding, and there' just too many 'ailments' now to mention!! My guy is fully retired, on daily bute (has to have two bute a day just before farrier comes now so he doesn't fall on him :o - farrier couldn't do his back feet at all for a few weeks, but the bute seems to make a difference). My farrier said the same thing as yours, but TBH I'd be inclined to go with your vet. See what they can do. Oh, and 'equine gold' (I think) glucosamine supplement has made a big difference - he was lame for a good few days every month before that and bute, and he couldn't stand from his bad side too. Have a search for the devils claw preperations and stuff - you never know if there's something that might help out there.

Although it's been a bit of a roller coaster ride over the past eighteen months, and, given I only know he's 25+ :eek: , it's still nice to see him enjoying the grass and the sunshine for a bit longer. I know he'll have to go eventually but I'm hoping I'LL know when that time is.......... my friend tells me that he'll tell me when he's ready to go. Think he enjoys being a field ornament at the moment ;)

You just have to do what's best for them in the end - lets face it, we're not the ones in pain, I guess. I do feel for you, and good luck. Keep us posted x

[Bronya]

I had a dog once in a sort of similar situation. She had cancer, and it meant she couldn't eat. She was old (13), and there was the possibility it might have spread. I vividly remember sitting in my parents' living room and 'discussing options'. My mum wanted to put her down, I didn't. I said, go for the operation, if it doesn't go ok, we gave her a chance and she'll never wake up. If it does, she might have a few years yet. It was a lot of money, but we could afford it. The discussion went on for some time, and I have no idea how, but somehow she understood something of what we were talking about. She'd always been my mum's dog, always, yet she came over to me and didn't want to be near her. Wouldn't look at her, anything. We had the op in the end, and afterwards she didn't want to be near my mum, didn't want her with her, just turned away, so I stayed with her that first night.
The operation gave her two weeks before we found the cancer had spread to her spine. She died very quickly, but she did have two lovely pain-free weeks to enjoy. To this day I firmly believe we did the right thing. She was not ready to just give up and go peacefully.

In contrast, a friend's horse had cushings. Over one long winter, she quite blatantly held on for her owner, who she'd been with since she was a foal. She broke a hip, and recovered, then went down again one day and really struggled to stand. She looked so tired, so ready to just give up and have some peace. She was put down and possibly would have been ready for it sooner, but she held on for the girl who had loved her all these years.

When they are ready to go, the fight goes out of them. They look tired, and fed up with life. For your horse, if getting up becomes a real problem, you're left with trying that operation if it might work, or with PTS. What determines that, is finances obviously, viability and his quality of life.

[chestnut-mare]

I've been there and believe me its never an easy decision and even when you make that decision you'll go on wondering whether or not it really was the right decision. I've posted before with my scenario but I'll attempt to keep this short: I had my old girl from the age of 12 to 34 - thats me not my mare, she was 3 and I had her PTS at the young age of 25. I still miss her terribly. She became arthritic at the age of 19. I spent a huge amount of money over the years trying to keep her comfortable. My vet kept telling me she was doing ok but over the years she went from 470kg to under 400. She never laid down. When she tried to lie down she'd manage about 1 minute then she'd get back up again as she couldn't get comfortable. I think she might still be alive today if it hadn't been for the fact we were moving house and I couldnt bear the thought of her travelling 300 miles and then going into a livery yard where the power to advocate for her would be lost. It wasn't planned but to cut a very long story short - I made the decision the day before we moved. All I can recommend is that when you do decide to have your horse PTS please make sure you arrange things properly. I wish I'd let my mare's pair bond see her before being buried, I wish I'd not had her buried minutes after the injection as I still have visions that she wasn't quite dead and lastly I wish I'd known what to expect as my callous vet did not sedate her first he simply stuck a very large needle into her - twice as he missed the spot first time. I could make this story very long with all the missing detail but I just wanted to offer a bit of friendly advice - it'll never be the right time, you just have to go with your instincts & be well prepared on the day. You'll be surprised how well you can handle it as the adrenalin that kicks in is unreal! Its after the event you'll break down so have a large supply of tissues and a good bottle of wine at the ready ;)

[Afellpony]

I've never had a horse put down but I've been there for 9 of my cats when they were put down. It was heartbreaking but very peaceful and professionally done. I dont think you ever get over the loss of an animal but the lasting impression of how your friend is put down never leaves you. I've still got 2 cats but they are old (15 yrs) and not really in the best of health. One has diabetes and the other a growth behind her eye.

[Nickynoodles]

Thanks Horselass - well, funny enough and even with this terrible rain, he is doing really well, we even tacked him up after he was sound for about two weeks and did some REALLY gentle excercises round the paddock:eek: The next day - no sign of stiffness at all - so we are just plodding along really, taking it day by day and seeing how he goes.;)

Here is a pic of Reece on him (he is very light, so he rides rather than me) Oh, and can I just add, that the hat Reece is wearing is an original "Sancho" cowboy hat, bought in Texas for my son. It has an inner skull lining just like an english riding hat - The reason I say this is because I was totally and utterly slated by someone else on a rescue forumn for in effect, wanting to kill my child:eek:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/nickynoodles33/horses038.jpg

[pengapenga]

This has been an interesting thread.

I would not hesitate to put any of my horses to sleep if their quality of life was gone or that they had become toooo dangerous to be handled. I have gone through this when Mysty got bitten by the snake last year, the hard thing in that scenario was telling my daughter (she is 12) that if Mysty did not show signs of recovery by xx date then we have to be kind and end her misery. Luckily Mysty pulled through only just too as the next day was the day.

I have a retired horse living out his life on my property, he is not my horse but he is very happy living with us. He has really blossomed.

[fairlady]

Oh what a difficult subject. Can only tell you my story with my two dogs. German Shep and German Pointer, had both since tiny pups, very, very close 1 year between them. Always new the shepherd would survive without the pointer but always doubted the other way around.

It came one day that I realised the Shepherd had not got out of bed that morning to great me, as he always did, aged 13. I took one look at him and just knew, he lifted his head and pathetically tried to wag his tail, I got straight on phone to vet, it was a Sunday and they were closed. Met her at the surgery and she suspected he had a growth in his stomach, could operate but chance he would not make it. I had never left him, ever, and could not bear the thought that he could go and be with strangers, at least this way I could be with him, so decision made and he was PTS. We had a staffie pup also at that time and that kept the Pointer going for another year.
Same scenario really one day he didn't get out of bed, off to the vets, knew deep down it was his time as well. Vet told me that she could not find anything wrong really could have him in and do exploritory op, and then listened to his heart, again, told me he had a massive heart murmour and could go at any time. Now again, I could not bear the thought that this dog could drop at any time, overnight, or when I was at work, on his own, so made the decision and had him put to sleep then, when I could be with him and hopefully he could hear me telling him how much I had loved him. What a hard decision, horrible, but I could be with them at the end, hard as it was, and knew it was both of their times to go and that I had to be extra brave for them. Hopefully I will do the same for my two staffies that I have now when it is their turn. Only wish somebody could do it for me when my time comes:)

[diplomaticandtactful]

I have had to have three pts due to illness/injury

broken hock - no option
colic - surgery but did not survive
tumour - surgery but did not survive

Each time pts by vet.

I have two cobs - Molly is retired and she will not leave here alive, she is a neurotic wreck of a horse and incessant worrier, if i can't keep her she will be pts

Rosie is currently off with laminitis but is a strong girl - but who wants her? She is 16, this is her second bout of lammy, she needs careful management and she is a thug - I would fight for her but if I can't keep her what then

Two donkeys - Ferguson and Aimee, easy to rehome, but now 20+

All 4 currently insured but all 4 close to the time when no insurance possible. Therefore money does become an issue as I paid out £3K for the cancer surgery.

I hope I can see them all out, but if I can't I doubt that other than the donkeys I would rehome them, Molly certainly not, Rosie could be but who wants a lame lammy with irritable nature?

When our business went bust a few years ago, I put Molly in for rehoming, she came back six weeks later with a busted leg and painfully thin - she hadn't done at all well, so I know the answer there. She doesn't leave here alive.

Rosie had been rehomed 5 times before she came to me, returned each time for her thuggish behaviour.....i have had her 4 years and for 18 months of that time she has been off sick.

Euthanasia is often the kindest thing for an elderly or unmarketable horse.

[Roseanne]

I have recently come to the conclusion that in spite of doing everything possible for my mare to keep her sound, I may well have to consider euthanasia.

The yard she is at now is not really suitable for her retirement. She is kept on her own, although I had expected a companion for her, which was mentioned at the time I visited the yard, she is not happy in my opinion and becoming more and more nervous and unsettled, when she was previously a very laid back, confident hack, and willing in the school, until I discovered her hock problems and navicular, and recently she showed a possible allergic reaction to richer grass, (though my vet, as I posted in a previous thread, felt it was initially signs of EMS, but blood tests proved negative),she is still having problems with her back, is now even unwilling to take a walk-in-hand outside the yard, and I just feel so helpless. particularly as she does look fit and well, if overweight!

She is also a head-shaker in Spring and Summer, and again, at this yard she seems an awful lot worse.

Having had to have my first horse euthanised, which after four years still haunts me, I now have to consider that if I cannot find a good retirement home for my beautiful mare where I can keep an eye on her health and visit to let her know I'm still there for her, I will have to PTS. That decision is going to break my heart, and will be the end of riding for me, as I know it will take a long time to find another sweet-natured horse like her, and I just can't go through all this again.

Thankyou for bringing up the subject. It is an important one, and at least I've voiced my feelings. I will be talking to my vet and physio next week, and then decide what to do next. I don't hold out much hope of finding a retirement home for her, even though I would pay the same for that as I'm paying now for full livery - there are too many people looking for the same retirement prospect.

I feel for all of you who have had to face this devastating decision, and hope that the rest of you may not have to, for a very long time to come.

Roseanne xxxxx

[diplomaticandtactful]

Roseanne

I have just moved from Sussex but i do have contacts there, including a 20 acre field you could rent for her to live in - with a barn in the middle of it - i used to rent it. PM for information.

[Trewsers]

When the time comes with both ours, I will look to various things. There will be "signs" - I know OH and I will both think long and hard about it, but I know that both of us will probably be in agreeance and try all options before having either pts. Of course, if its obvious they are suffering and the vet advises us then so be it - but I know we'll probably try our best with whatever treatments are available - even if there is only a slim chance - we'll try it. Just so long as the horses aren't suffering when there is absolutely no hope of recovery. Of course, you have to think about what kind of recovery, what quality of life - that too will play a part in decision making. Its something I do think about - (naturally quite a worrier and can't cope with "perfect" for long).

[diplomaticandtactful]

Roseanne

I tried to pm you but you aren't accept ing message so here is the message.

used to live in West sussex near chichester and have moved to Scotland.

I used to rent a 15 acre field from a lovely guy called charlie (£10 per week) and it has not been used for about 3 years now. there is a big barn in the middle of it which we used to leave open so they could go in if they wanted to in the winter.

I am sure you could rent it if it helped - it is very sheltered, woodland enclosed, very natural pasture, will probably need clearing of ragwort but otherwise it is a lovely place.

It is near Goodwood - is this within your range? Otherwise you could ask my friend Pauline at Sussex Horse Rescue Trust if she has any people looking for companion only mares on loan.

If you are just looking for livery, Sam Garry in Selsey has a lovely yard with turnout - she charges £15 a day full livery and also my ex RI has her own fields and she might be able to do you a deal on permanent livery at grass - she is a very nice lady and very caring. She is in Yapton, Sussex so again it may be close enough to you.

Hope some of this helps. If any are of interest and you want contact numbers please send me an email or PM.

[palomino698]

A great number of cats, dogs and rabbits have ended their lives in my arms at the vet's, or at home, and I've held two old ponies for our huntsman to put down. In both cases they had been retired for ages, very arthritic, it wasn't a sudden decision, and in my mind their eyes had said, 'enough'. We may be facing it this winter with another old pony, with a typical Cushings coat but no unsoundness, teeth virtually useless so he can only eat soaked bucket feeds, quids on hay and now on grass too. One of the hardest things is knowing another week, another month, maybe even another year and he'd be just the same. The timing is my decision, however I try to justify it on the basis of his demeanour or expression changing. Yet if I wait until his physical condition deteriorates and it's not an emergency, but a more immediate necessity, I'll wish it had been done when he was comparatively well, or at least, seemed bright and happy. I don't know if there's ever a right time when it's NOT an emergency situation in terms of pain, safety or whatever, it's the most awful part of taking on an animal for the rest of its life.

[HorseLass]

Palomino - I'm in the same position, now.

Spoke to my vet the other day, as my old guy's been steadily losing weight over the past couple of weeks - not good at this time of year. His 'twitch' seems to have returned with a vengeance, and he's just not 'looked right', if you know what I mean. She said it could be his heart affecting his other organs and we need to consider whether he's having more bad days than good. It's so incredibly difficult, as he's STILL eating and looked happy again yesterday. I just don't know what to do for the best.

Doesn't help that previous owner has recently said (in a conversation with someone else) ...

a) she doesn't want him to suffer - if it's a brain tumour or something, he's going to be in a lot of pain, and

b) haven't I had top local vet out to look at him?

Given that my lad's 26+ and can't be moved, I fail to see how getting him to the veterinary hospital for tests on his liver/brain, etc., is gonna help:(

PLUS he's been examined by two vets from the same practice - one a heart specialist. I just feel as if I can't do right for doing wrong, really.

I've got to bite the bullet this week and make some decisions...........