Going to see Monty Roberts?

[mewsrider]

Did you all know Monty Roberts is doing 3 demos in the UK at the beginning of September? I saw him overseas in February and it was awesome.

I believe Richard Maxwell, Kelly Marks and Mike Peace were his pupils originally, so it's interesting to see someone who influenced them a lot. Strongly recommend you go if you can, he's an old guy and may not make it to the UK again I suspect. Which is a shame.

The demo I saw was amazing, he did a starter, a bucker, a horse that was terrified of clippers and a loader. In half an hour he had the one scared of clippers standing happily while the clippers ran inside its ear!! (Beforehand even switching the clippers on 10 feet away made it go ballistic.)

He's doing demonstrations in Essex, Solihull (Birmingham) & Scotland - the info is on www.montyroberts.co.uk if you want to go.

Thought as a"lurker" for some time I would finally post and make sure you all didn't miss this as not many people seem to know.

Maybe see some of you there?

Take care,

M xx

[ros]

Yes, I saw MR 2 or 3 years ago. I did enjoy it, but I'm really not sure about this join-up thing. I don't deny the man has talent, but I just wonder how many ordinary people achieve the desired results when attempting to do the same thing? It would be interesting to hear. It seems to me that sending a horse away in this particular set-up (the round pen) doesn't always make sense. I send horses away from me if they've done something wrong (usually out in the field if they're shoving or generally being disrespectful) but in a round pen, with a horse that hasn't actually done anything wrong yet, wouldn't it be possible to make things worse if you weren't absolutely sure what you were doing? Anyone got any views?

[Hevz2001]

Wow! hes going to Essex?! Thats sooo cool!!!!!!! I want my mum to come home now so I can ask if she can take me! yay! that'd be brilliant!:D :D :D I hope I can go, Braintree isn't very far from where I live. Is anyone else going to the one in Essex??? I might see you there!!!!! I'll let you know if I can go or not.
Cya Later!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[mewsrider]

H - no problem it's a pleasure! Hope to see you there.

Ros, I totally agree, I think people can do damage if they try & send away without really understanding or being taught how. You do hear occasionally of people who have sent horses away continually for an hour or something, and the horse ends up totally exhausted, stressed and frustrated. It's definitely best if people really try to understand it before trying it, or ideally have someone show them.

Although fortunately most people's body language and understanding of the horse's communication isn't very good so after the horse has asked a few "questions" and not received any answers they will switch off anyway. Also people need to understand that JoinUp is something you do a handful of times in a horse's life, not every Saturday morning! and that it's not appropriate to send away some horses (eg very frightened horses that are more comfortable "away" than being "with" the human).

I've thought about whether it's fair to send away when the horse hasn't done anything wrong. Having seen a lot of joinup work done by qualified people I concluded that although it can be a punishment (eg the classic exclusion from the herd situation), it is also a way of reiterating the boundaries in the herd, a mare will remind its foal/fellow herd member that she is still their "leader" by moving them around - not moving them aggressively, just asking them to move out of her space. That seems to me a natural part of herd behaviour, where it is each horse's "job" to keep challenging the herd structure.

Which sounds like a thesis or something! I hope it makes sense - agree it can be damaging if people get it wrong - but think sending away isn't as traumatic as it is in the exclusion from the herd story.

All the best,

M

[ros]

Hi Mewsrider

Yes, makes perfect sense. I just get a bit worried when people casually talk about "join-up" like it's something anyone can do. I agree that join-up MR style is not something you should need to do every day - hopefully not at all if you have a good relationship with your horse from the start.

I think we tend to forget that in horse herds, just as in dog packs and the like, the social hierarchy is an ever-changing thing; leaders come, stay awhile, get challenged, win the fight or get driven away, and that's natural. Human beings sometimes take it far too personally when they're challenged by their "pet". The nice thing about it is that animals undderstand all this much better than we do and are much more accepting than we expect when they find they have to back down. They just shrug it off while we mooch about sulking!

If I get a problem with a horse (and I've only had to do it twice) I take a bucket of feed out into the field and guard it. It tends to get the message across quite quickly.

[Dizzy]

This is so difficult to word. I agree in certain situations join-up (when done by some-one who can read a horses reactions, and acts accordingly) can work wonders. I think if you have a new horse and are establishing ground rules, it will be great.

But with a horse you have had had a good relationship with and its gone bad, I think you have to look at whats gone wrong and why, and back track abit and regain lost trust.

I would feel like a traitor if I did join up with my horse as we have a good relationship where we both trust each other, and 'sending her away' would destroy the bond we've built.

I have done loads of in-hand work with mine, and at the end of work I've clipped her off and walked round the paddock with her following, mouthing at my hip. We've walked the 'arena', gone in and out of the poles, and done all I've asked of her in-hand and she has joined-up with me, without the 'sending away'.

I also think that used correctly on horses that will benefit, by someone with experience, its a great tool. But I do know of horses/ponies who take the pee something rotten out out of their owners, but behave like angels when handled by people who are firm but kind.

Sadly sometimes, its those who are getting the pee took out of them who think join-up is the answer.

Lesley

[mewsrider]

Agree with you Lesley, some horses don't need sending away as they are sufficiently "joined up" already. Though personally I don't think sending away gently will break the trust you have with a horse, depending on how you do it. But you are the only one who knows the relationship you have with your horse and if you feel it's not the right thing to do you're quite right not to do it!

Ros, like the bit about the bucket of feed - interesting, I'll bear that in mind!

Incidentally, re horses taking the p out of people: a couple of people who have worked with thousands of horses over their lifetimes in gentle ways, namely Mark Rashid and Monty Roberts, believe that horses are never disrespectful or taking the mick - they are just not understanding what's required of them or are doing what they think we want. This was quite revolutionary when I heard it earlier this year, so often you hear people saying "he's just messing you around" or "he's not scared he just doesn't want to do X to spite you". Really made me think.

M

[ros]

Yes, probably 99 times out of 100 horses aren't really messing us around - we just haven't explained ourselves properly. That's why it's so important that if we do tell them off we make sure that a) they really haven't just misunderstood before we do, b) they understand what it is they've done and c) we correct them in a way they can understand. And d) we make up with them as soon as they react as we want them to.

Having said that, I'd quite like to put Mark and Monty in a field with an old horse I once had the misfortune to know. He'd been hand-reared, and would chase anyone who was dumb enough to try to walk through his field. I made the mistake of doing just that one day, and only just made it over the hedge. I'm fairly sure I hadn't asked anything of him, and I'm damn sure he didn;t think I wanted to be chased!!!

[msp]

So did anyone else decide to go?

I'm going to Braintree on Mon 3rd...

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Sorry. Wouldn't want to go - I am dubious about sending the horse away in a round pen too. It's probably the worst analogy I could use but here goes: if you were lonely and frightened - or behaving badly then made to feel lonely and frightened, wouldn't you eventually seek contact? It's something about the evoked motive to join up in that situation which I'm not comfortable with - well not as something to teach purposefully anyway.

[msp]

I noticed a few people were wondering how often join-up should be done. Well Kelly Marks (who I believe Monty Roberts rates as the best follower of his methods) says "three of four times when starting a horse is fine, and again if you are bringing the horse back into work, or if you need to re-establish your relationship, for instance, after moving stables".

As to the idea of driving the horse away for no reason, that is not what they advocate. The horse is only sent away after it shows it is not part of the herd (if it is a timid horse, it would only be gently sent away, and only after it made the first move).

Basically if the horse already follows you around, and respects your space (unless it is following the sweets in your pocket, or chasing you:)), you are already joined up and don't need to do the round pen stuff.

The body language used in the "join-up" though is interesting/useful. You will probably find you are already using some of it, but may well be confusing your horse a bit by unknowingly giving mixed signals...

As to beating Monty, I suspect you would probably fail, unless your horse is a killer. He has been doing this stuff for many many years, and is reputed to have only failed a handful of times (as a side note: did you know he was body double for Liz Taylor in National velvet? And he has been working on this stuff since about then...).

If you are interested in this stuff I suggest you pickup Kelly Marks book(let) "Creating A Bond With Your Horse" http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0851317952/o/qid=/sr=8-1/ref=sr_aps_b_1_1/202-1578545-4093402

Best Wishes

PS. Another interesting question is also when not to attempt join up - The answer Kelly gives is something like, don't , do it on any horse younger than 2 years or not fully halter trained, also do not attempt it on any aggressive horse (unless you are an expert who has done it many times).

[ros]

Hi Mark

You mention that Monty has only failed a handful of times, and I can well believe it. However, I recall reading in his book "The Man Who Listens to Horses" about one particularly vicious stallion he tried for a long time to sort out, and eventually had to give up. Having decided that the horse was untrainable, it was decided that it was too good to get rid of and should be kept for breeding.

This is not meant to be a reflection on Monty's ability or methods, but it did make me question his motives a little. Maybe other people were involved; nevertheless I can't understand why anyone would consider breeding from a horse with such a difficult temperament. Whichever way you look at it it seems a bit unscrupulous.

[msp]

Hi Ros,

I had a similar feeling when I read that bit - I was wondering about its quality of life, and as you said it sounds dangerous to breed from it. I suppose it depends if it is bad blood, or if it went bad due to miss-treatment.

That said a horse which, unprovoked, kicks and bites other horses and humans is much worse than most problem horses (I hope).

I've just read your post again, and that horse sounds like one he also struggled with - a hand reared one which didn't understand it was not a human and kept jumping on anyone who came near?!
Hopefully he doesn't end up too dangerous, sounds like it needs tackling before it does... :(

PS. Just started reading "Shy Boy", by Monty its also an excellent read (read half of it this evening!)

[Hevz2001]

I didnt go to the presentation :( I couldnt get there because my mum was working :( I agree about the joinup thing, it shouldnt be used every day, because, not only is it unfair to the horse, but it will lose its effect. However, after every lunge lesson with Tiffany, I 'invite her in' the way you would in join-up, as it ends the lesson on a good note, and you don't have to send her away for no reason. Oh well
Got to go
Bye!!!!!!!!!!!!
Heather:D

p.s How was the presentation? Was it good? I wish I'd seen it.

[msp]

It was great!

He is a bit of a showman, so you need to make sure you keep an eye on what he is doing, instead of just listening to his tales, but he was very impressive.

Probably the most impressive was a bad loader. A friends knows the horse and it really did take over 3 hours to load to get there! He loaded it in less than 4 minutes.... AND at no time did it appear scared, and it definately wasn't hurt to do it.

To be fair, he did do a join up first, and he did initially sort of coral it in using 4 fence sections and a load of people (but it was not forced in, just its alternative options were quietly reduced...).

Straight after that he reloaded it using only 2 fence "wings", then with none. THEN he reloaded with no help and NO lead rope at all - it just followed him in. The owner also managed to load it using a simple lead rope.

I think the key points were to

1) Always stay calm.

2) Make the horses life awkward if it does the wrong thing. NOT using pain, and preferably in such a way the horse makes the decission itself.

3) Be a strong, fair, consistent leader, and the horse will be very happy to follow you (it is happier because it doesn't have to worry about leading you, or running away from you).

Anyway this post is getting a bit long so I'll stop scribbling now!

Cheers
MSP

PS. Kelly Marks is coming to Rickmansworth on Sat 15 Sept - it would be worth seeing her too!