Groundwork: moving shoulders

[LindaAd]

Perhaps some of you experienced people could give me some advice.
I've been doing some groundwork with my horse (picking up again on stuff we did a while ago, then dropped). I use a rope halter and a long leadrope, no sticks, carrot or otherwise.

She will walk beside me on a slack rope, following my pace and direction; she will move her quarters away on request, back up and walk forward. She is generally very polite and respectful - a fantastic change from the way she used to be, when she kept trying to use me as a scratching-post, and would barge me over if she thought I was in her way.

But if I ask her to move from her shoulder, sideways away from me, she objects - puts her ears back and pulls faces. And I don't know if this is because of some sort of stiffness or pain (she's old, but quite sound), or if I'm asking something that's difficult (maybe I should be asking for sideways+forwards, or sideways+back?). And how can I tell?

I'd be grateful for any suggestons.

Linda

[Yann]

Are you asking her to do a turn about the haunches / yield her front end, or are you looking for a sideways yield with both the front and back end moving together?

How are you currently asking her? Whilst Rio will yield away sideways from me now with just a raised hand with the loose end of the rope in it more often than not, I was a bit stuck with turn about the forehand. The way it has since been suggested to me which seems to work is to stand level with her head and apply a positive pressure away from you on the lead rope and maybe combine that with a touch on the shoulder and a vocal cue if that's your thing. Just look for one small step at a time to start with and build from there. The face pulling might just be confusion on her part as to what she's being asked?

*edit* That should have been turn about the haunches not forehand :rolleyes: Will engage brain properly next time...

[LindaAd]

Are you asking her to do a turn about the forehand / yield her front end, or are you looking for a sideways yield with both the front and back end moving together?

How are you currently asking her? Whilst Rio will yield away sideways from me now with just a raised hand with the loose end of the rope in it more often than not, I was a bit stuck with turn about the forehand. The way it has since been suggested to me which seems to work is to stand level with her head and apply a positive pressure away from you on the lead rope and maybe combine that with a touch on the shoulder and a vocal cue if that's your thing. Just look for one small step at a time to start with and build from there. The face pulling might just be confusion on her part as to what she's being asked?


Thanks, Yann. I ask with a little push with one finger, like I do to ask her to back, or to move her hindquarters ... Sometimes it's enough just to point, especially with the hindquarters. Plus saying "back" or "over".

I think if I used the leadrope, she'd either back (that's part of the cue to back), or, with a touch on the shoulder, she'd go back and sideways. Part of the problem is that I'm not sure what I'm asking for: with the hindquarters, she'll go all the way round with the back feet, while the front feet stay in place - isn't this turn on the forehand, by the way? I think when the front end moves and the back doesn't, then it's turn on the haunches ...

If I want the whole horse to move, I put myself in the middle and point at both ends, so I think, in answer to your question, I'm asking for just the front end to move.

You cold be right about the face-pulling, although my feeling is that she does understand but finds it difficult for some reason. She'll generally give me one step if I insist, but I don't ask for more. I"ve been trying to think of an occasion when she didn't understand what I was asking, but it's hard. She's more likely to offer something than refuse to do anything. Maybe it's because I always ask it last ... She's done two things and that's my lot!

Linda

[galadriel]

Turn on the forehand is accomplished by moving the hindquarters around, but the horse's face stays with you.

PErhaps she is perpleeexed about how to remain working with you, yet move her shoulders away. I wonder if she thinks you want her to move the shoulders but keep the face towards you. It might help to exaggeratedly step with her, so she can get that you do want the shoulders AND the head to move.

This might be more easily accomplished with a schooling or in-hand whip.

[Naturally]

I think if I used the leadrope, she'd either back (that's part of the cue to back), or, with a touch on the shoulder, she'd go back and sideways. Part of the problem is that I'm not sure what I'm asking for: with the hindquarters, she'll go all the way round with the back feet, while the front feet stay in place - isn't this turn on the forehand, by the way? I think when the front end moves and the back doesn't, then it's turn on the haunches ...

Well I'm confused !! I don't mean for this to come out the wrong way, but I don't know another way to say it. :o If you're not sure what your asking your horse to do, how do you expect him to know? It's up to you to deliver the cue for a desired outcome. Now I do apologise if that's not what you meant but it appears from what you've written in your post that if your horse does something when you touch it you think that it's responding. The human needs to be clear and consisent in order to get the desired outcome and it's up to you to ask.

If the horse is yielding sideways from your pressure when you are asking for a FQ yield, it's probably confused as to what you are asking, in which case, your positioning may be wrong, you may not be asking politely/correctly, you may not be using a strong enough focus.

But look, rather than rant and rave .... I had a horse who was stuck on her FQ, and a lot are in my experience. I use a backwards and over manouevre. The horse needs the weight to be on the HQ to yield the FQ, so by asking for a backwards step first, then a FQ yield it becomes easier for them, so you could try that. I do hope that helps. :)

[Yann]

I was having trouble with Rio offering backing up too, as with a lot of these things it's us not the horse that has trouble making ourselves clear. Making things more obvious by positioning yourself further forward and giving a clear indication to begin with using the leadrope might help. The other thing to try is to do the exercise initially with the horse's hindquarters up against a fence or hedge:)

[cvb]

without seeing its difficult to know what is getting stuck but I would check two things..

1) your position vs the horse. It could be that you are too far back (for her) and she thinks you are asking something much more complicated that you really are ;) Try changing position a little and see if there is any difference

2) may not be relevent but might be useful info. Both Leslie Desmond and Mark Rashid talk about the need to shirt the weight onto the hind quarters before asking for the "lift" and cross at the front. Leslie looks for the wither lifting - it was almost a thought more than a step - a rocking back. Mark is similar but will ask riders to get one step back before over - I think this stops the horse "planting" at an early stage (where they appear to rock back but actually leave the weight at the front :rolleyes: )

So it may be that you need to look at "what happens before what happens happens" (as Mr Parelli says) i.e. look at your set-up prior to asking.

I also find I can use quite a light touch with all my beasties now, like a "positive stroke" - so I can friendly first by stroking them, and then just add a little intent and a little more pressure to the stroke, and they step away. This is not to get a full 180 degrees, cos I'd need more intent on my part then.

We have a veteran - 33 - who's sight is starting to get dodgy and who is quite stiff some days. If I too strongly lead him, it affects his balance and he finds it hard. So I used the image of when you help a blind person - you offer your arm and they make the contact and follow the feel. With my old chap, I just make contact softly, e.g. a hand under his chin, or on his shoulder or bum, and direct him gently that why. (To be honest he knows what he's doing when anyway, so its more just a helping hand. Tho I needed a somewhat stronger contact at the weekend when we decided to bath him - he gets very greasy - and he decided we weren't going to :rolleyes: )

[LindaAd]

without seeing its difficult to know what is getting stuck but I would check two things..

1) your position vs the horse. It could be that you are too far back (for her) and she thinks you are asking something much more complicated that you really are ;) Try changing position a little and see if there is any difference

2) may not be relevent but might be useful info. Both Leslie Desmond and Mark Rashid talk about the need to shirt the weight onto the hind quarters before asking for the "lift" and cross at the front. Leslie looks for the wither lifting - it was almost a thought more than a step - a rocking back. Mark is similar but will ask riders to get one step back before over - I think this stops the horse "planting" at an early stage (where they appear to rock back but actually leave the weight at the front :rolleyes: )


rolleyes: )

Thank you for your helpful replies, cvb and naturally. The secret was the stepping back - it hit me like a flash of inspiration when I read Naturally's post, and cvb, you confirmed it.

So I tried it today, and it worked! A couple of steps back, then a step back and sideways from the shoulder, and not only did she understand instantly, the second time she offered the sideways before I'd finished asking for it.
So I stopped there.

But ... I still got the cross face, and this bit of work (maybe five or ten minutes before I groomed her) was followed by one of her special little tantrums, and a very unusual refusal to cooperate with the farrier, who is very gentle if he suspects a horse might be in pain. My own feeling is that this might be a big dominance issue (I remember problems years ago when my daughter, whose horse she is really), asked her for turn on the haunches in a lesson. Or else there really was something scary behind the hedge in the field across the road ... Farrier reckons it's because she's a chestnut mare, and she's bored.

We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanks anyway for the advice - it was brilliant.

Linda