NAtural Horsemanship/Barefoot courses - Discuss?

[intouch]

HAs anyone here actually been on a Natural Horsemanship course? My daughter is interested in training, and I have been looking at IH, Silversands, Natural Animal Centre, but would love to have personal recommendations.

Also, to put the cat among the pidgeons, so to speak, what are your views on the different schools of barefoot trimming? I did 2 Strasser horseowners courses and have no problem with them, I have kept my own horses barefoot, happy & sound for 2 years, but I am aware of prejudice in that area. How do KC la Pierre, Pete Ramey etc compare?

Look forward to your views. :D

[Bay Mare]

Haven't done the courses myself (no £) but having had an IH RA out to see Saff a couple of times and spoken to her and others about it I would definitely recommend the IH courses.

Not NH as such but Heather Moffett also does EE teacher training ... *we* (as in people wanting to learn, I'm not and probably never likely to be an EE trainer ... I can dream though :) ) need more EE trainers hence the plug :D

Barefoot wise, Saff is done by a KC La Pierre EP though I've also heard very good things about Pete Ramey too. Personally I wouldn't touch Strasser with a very long bargepole, too invasive for most horses, although I can understand some of the principles I think that she's a mile and more apart from KC & PR who, IMO, have a better and sounder approach to it all.

[KarinUS]

Personally I like to check out lots of different theories and try to learn what works best in my situation. :)
I've been to a Olivo Seminar (barefoot ex-strasser person) and found it very enlightening. We've had our horses trimmed by an SHP (Strasser) and she's been coaching us but our SHP is also part of a Texas Natural Trimmer network and welcomes input from all different sources so she would probably get in trouble with the hardcore Strasser people... ;)
I think there is good information available from all kinds of sources and closing your eyes and ears to a particular trim style because you've heard horror stories about it, is a mistake. :) Ultimately any trim style is only as good as the person applying it and the same theory can be applied in many different ways.
In fact we defintely modified the way we trim based on the feedback we got from our horses eventhough officially we probably are still pretty closely following what our SHP taught us. :)
I am looking forward to attending a KC LaPierre seminar early next year. Our SHP is coming too. ;)

[intouch]

Thanks for that, bay mare I have done some of HMs training and use a lot of her stuff in my teaching, but I am retiring from "hard core" instructing and looking to handing over to my daughters to develop a NH livery/schooling/starting yard.
KarinUS I so agree, our Strasser trainer Cath Clarke showed us some of the more advanced stuff but emphasised that we shouldn't attempt it, she is quite happy that we use only what works for our horse. I have done another course with Bergy Bergaman (sp?) which was interesting but not as informative as Cath's.
Keep it coming folks!

[cvb]

intouch

I've been on a PNH course way back in the Ross Simpson days. And to a Mark Rashid clinic.

Our "local" contact, who to our loss is just emigrating to NZ, worked with Mark for some time in US and as a result would run clinics with: mark, Leslie Desmond, Peggy Cummings, Marthe thingummie who does behavioural stuff. I've audited some of these but only ridden for Mark.

Personally I think this "Inclusive" approach has a lot to offer as people aren't forced into a yes/no answer. i.e. you'd be "NH" not a "brand" of NH.

[Yann]

Not done it myself (yet), but know a few people who have and they all rave about the 5 day IH course :)

[Foxfold]

HAs anyone here actually been on a Natural Horsemanship course? My daughter is interested in training, and I have been looking at IH, Silversands, Natural Animal Centre, but would love to have personal recommendations.

Look forward to your views. :D

__________________________________________________________

Hi,
I've done a five day course with Steve Halfpenny (silversands) and thought it was brilliant. Such a quiet, unassuming man, with a tremendous knowledge of horses. I never really knew what 'light' meant until I saw Steve in action. :o

I use Pete Ramey's trimming because I find it a straight forward, understandable method, again a man with a tremendous knowledge in my opinion.

[Crystal Fire]

I've had a horrendous time trying to find the right person to trim my 3. They did very nicely trimmed by my farrier, but he moved away - how could he??
The closest person to me, and the one who seems most committed to the horses, is Strasser trained. I have always avoided Strasser like the plague because I have seen some terrible stuff done to horses' feet. However, I was desperate so I spoke to him very honestly about how I felt, warned him that if he drew blood it wouldn't be only the horse that ended up bleeding... and yesterday he came and trimmed all 3. I watched him like a hawk, but so far I'm cautiously pleased. He took ages explaining what he was doing and why, we had long discussions about the best way to look after barefoot horses (and agreed thankfully), and he's using my mare with kissing spine as a case study. He's going to come once a month. I can keep you posted on progress if you like.
I organise a lot of the Silversand UK clinics, so if you'd like to chat about it or find out where they are on then feel free to email me on silversandclinicsAThotmail.com
I can only agree with what Foxfold said, that is why I am so committed to helping Steve, who is not a great businessman, but I think is a great horseman. Some people have dismissed him as being "just the same as Parelli" but I don't see how they could actually watch him work or look at his videos and still think that. Try no 7 games, no 4 phases... In Parelli terms he seems to be able to help people to look for "level 3" refinement right from day 1. There, I've blown that trumpet enough :D
We have a fundraiser demo evening for EMW in Hereford in September - all the proceeds are going to EMW so if anyone is interested please email me, I'd love to make them as much money as possible!

[virtuallyhorses]

I haven't been on any courses but I have attended a number of clinics. Clinics I have attended - Pat Parelli, John Lyons, Gawani Pony Boy, Guy McLean, Steve Brady (the last two are Australian Horsemen) so I've been lucky enough to see the 'real deals' rather than any second-hand info.

I have also attended a couple of farriery\trimming clinics - the only 'barefoot' one was by Dan Guerrera. I've then read up on a number of other methods\styles including Strasser, Jaime Jackson, Gene Ovineck (not sure if that's how his name is spelled), Olivo and a number of others.

I think if I were starting out I would look to go to someone as close to the 'source' as possible i.e. if you are looking at a Parelli course go for someone who was trained by Parelli not someone 4 steps down the line. I think for my personal preference I'd recommend Mark Rashid or Gawani Pony Boy if you can go to either. Although GPB sounds rather airy-fairy I was incredibly impressed by him - more because he was very down to earth, very practical, very aware of the fact that people don't all have years of experience and so he constantly reminds you about your own safety and can easily break down and explain his methods and how to perform them.

Some of the others are almost so good that it's hard to understand what they're doing - they are so cued into the horse and they're body language that you have already understand what's going on before you get much out of their demos.

With regards to barefoot.. .well there's a topic to pick a fight with ;) Personally, I've now read sufficient information to think that the ones who admit that they don't know everything about how the foot really works are the best ones to trust. As soon as someone starts saying 'all horses feet look like this' , raise an eyebrow it probably means they haven't studied many feet. I've only recently read Jaime Jackson and immediately liked his frankness on this - he has his theories but he is quite happy to discuss them and admit where his 'facts' stop and theories begin.

[Pinkstergirl]

I wouldn't let a Strasser practitioner near my horse either. I've also heard (but cannot back this up myself) that Pete isn't thorough enough and his method of teaching people to trim for themselves is very basic and does not cover enough ground for it to be effective.

I will stick with KC thanks!

[Crystal Fire]

Until this week I too would not have let a Strasser trimmer near my horses. Unfortunately I'm physically incapable of doing my own trimming, but fortunately I have studied this enough to know what I want and be aware of the things that would concern me. This poor bloke was at my yard for 4 hours doing 3 horses - and at the end we had trims we were both happy with :) I have known good and bad experiences of Strasser, so I'm just going to have to hope this will turn out good. As of yesterday, all of them looked fine, in fact they looked good. My pony is no longer forging, she has pulled something in her back at the moment and is also tracking up better - so I'm cautiously optomistic.
I agree 100% on the learning Parelli thing. You need to work with a certified instructor. There are far to many level 1 hopefuls out there teaching and they need shooting.
If it's NH you are interested in then recognise that not everyone wearing jeans and using rope halter is teaching Parelli. Maybe check them out by watching them teach before taking a horse.

[Jacquie]

I agree 100% on the learning Parelli thing. You need to work with a certified instructor. There are far to many level 1 hopefuls out there teaching and they need shooting.
Can I just add here that ANYONE teaching under the name of 'Parelli' who aren't certified professionals should, without exception be reported to the PNH head office.

The trouble is Parelli is so well known and got such a good reputation that some trainers (who probably have never been on a PNH course never mind passed level 1) use the name to help promote their business.

[Crystal Fire]

Agreed! The real Parelli instructors work extremely hard and spend a great deal of money to get there, it makes me so cross when I find people giving Parelli "demos" or "teaching"Parelli. I report them no probs.
I wonder if you'd like an update on the Strasser trims. I've gone from some trepidation to being impressed.
Little pony with strained/twisted pelvis is definitely tracking up more and is stepping through almost level. Before it was noticeable that one leg was coming further forward than the other and the hip was lower on that side.
Horse with underslung heels and tender soles is moving so nicely that I've decided to ride him tomorrow - for the first time since April! I've been watching him playing in the field and he's absolutely powering along from behind. I just can't wait to be on his back again...
Horse with kissing spine looks much as ever, but it's always hard to tell with her. Certainly no signs of extra discomfort, she always lets me know if she's sore anywhere by getting really grumpy.
So maybe, just maybe, with Strasser it might be a case of finding the right trimmer?

[Chablis]

I use a mix of this method: www.ironfreehoof.com and Pete Ramey 'type' trim.

I have two TB's barefoot - successfully. One is an exracehorse and had terrible, typical TB hooves (or as they are freqently called), flat-footed, thin walls, flares, cracking. Unfortunately she has some old injuries that were not treated properly at the time of original injury so I'm doing a combination of therapy (equepressure, massage, carrot stretches) plus trimming to help her as she developed a club foot through injury. Club foot is getting a lot better now that the injury is being healed.

The other horse has never worn shoes, never raced and only been fed very minimal feed so very hardy horse. He has fantastic hooves, really thick walls, hooves grow very fast, super strong.

I'm doing the holistic view ie in a paddock, as natural a feed as possible so lot's of hay, chaffs + a herbal vitamin and mineral minx. Herbal wormers.

I didn't rug them this year and they coped fabulously with the -8 we had and the snow.

I have started taking them out on roads etc as I haven't ridden as much over winter as one has injury and other is extremely green (rescue case). So far, they are sound on gravel, bitamin (roads) at walk. I haven't trotted or cantered either of them.

If you are going to trim yourself (?), you need a hoof stand and excellent tools as otherwise trimming is impossible.

I would love to go to a Pete Ramey, Dan Guerrara, Jaime Jackson clinic. Unfortunately when they do visit Australia, they are no where near where I live - at least 3 or 4 hours away.

[intouch]

Thanks everyone for all this information! Unfortunately few trainers seem to arrive in N Ireland so it gets very expensive to experience them personally. Thanks specially for the link to ironfreehoof, that is excellent.
What I think I am discovering is that once someone has taken ownership of a "modality", quality is dependent more on their marketing skills than the content of their subject. I can understand the desire to make a living, but the idea that "noone else can do it as well as I can" makes it almost impossible for the average person to make an assessment.
I think I might make this a project in the near future, so any info, inside or otherwise, keep it coming! (PM me if it is libellous!)

[Bebe]

Also, to put the cat among the pidgeons, so to speak, what are your views on the different schools of barefoot trimming? I did 2 Strasser horseowners courses and have no problem with them, I have kept my own horses barefoot, happy & sound for 2 years, but I am aware of prejudice in that area. How do KC la Pierre, Pete Ramey etc compare?

I've been on a KC La Pierre 5 day workshop for the HPT Method. The theory aspect of this is incredibly thorough, I spent 3 days with a serious headache from trying to take so much in. Every aspect of the hoof is covered in detail, it's a very thorough grounding.

An afternoon is spent on horse-handling which I found to be invaluable. Farrier holds can be quite difficult, particularly the hind legs and it was good to have someone on hand to show exactly how to do it, what the common mistake are, etc.

A day is spent on cadaver hooves which I also think was invaluable. It was great to be able to trim, get immediate feedback, try again, etc without worrying that you're ruin the horse you were working on. It was also incredibly sad to see so many cadaver hooves that were in a bad way.

The final day was spent trimming a live horse under expert guidance. We were left alone for the most part and I'm proud to say that every single horse trimmed that day was trimmed well. It was very hard work but I loved every minute of it.

I came away feeling very confident in what I was doing, with more info on what I needed to be doing as far as conditioning, etc went and having enjoyed myself.

As far as KC & Pete Ramey go, whilst their approaches may initially seem to be very different there is an awful lot of common ground between the trims themselves and the end result doesn't differ by much at all.

[varkie]

Other than strasser (which I'm really NOT keen on), I think most of the barefoot methods are much of a muchness. We don't use any one set method with ours, but rather a combination of all that works.

As regards NH training, I like Mark Rashid most at the moment - I have a hell of a lot of time for him. Other trainers worth looking at are Richard Maxwell, Michael Peace. I have attended all of the Level 1 courses of IH, including the 5 day - I enjoyed the 5 day hugely. I really don't like Parelli, it just doesn't click for me. Until recently I was keeping an open mind on Silversands, due to the fact that someone I know (you know who you are!) & respect recommends them. However, a recent event has rather shattered my open mind, and I am very disappointed in the method, if not actually rather angry.

[horsemadmandy]

Hi
I have only in the last 6 months taken the transition to barefoot with a horse who has never been barefoot before. I have a very dedicated and I think talented person who is supporting us both through this worrying time and we do use the strasser technique. My horse has good feet and is doing so well and has suffered no ill health or injury and is riding so much better. I have been encouraged to take a course to trim myself but under no circumstances to take over fully until I have shown an ability to be safe. I would strongly advise people not to trim until you are fully confident and have a recognised trade because if things go wrong the RSPCA will be on you like a rash. I have a friend who had all her horses taken away because a local observer against barefoot kept a watchful eye on the horses and one showed signs of laminitis and that was it they took the horses. Barefoot we all know is the natural way but watch your backs if you are not confident and are unable to prove you are fully competent and lets face it these skills take years to develop with alot of practice. I will be taking the course but will not assume I can be safe until proved safe. Hope this is not too negative but it is how things are. Be Careful.

[Yann]

I can only think there must have been more to that case than a few signs of laminitis, the RSPCA wouldn't take someone's horses away for something so minor surely? They certainly don't confiscate horses that have been lamed by poor farrier work.

[Bebe]

I have been encouraged to take a course to trim myself but under no circumstances to take over fully until I have shown an ability to be safe.

Who's going to deem you safe to trim by yourself then?

The RSPCA, ILPH and WCF all have very strong misgivings re: the Strasser method. That said, it is not illegal for anyone to trim their own horses hooves, with or without qualifications (and as yet none of the barefoot "qualifications" are recognised by any of the major equine welfare groups, governing bodies, etc) and as such horses can't legally be removed from owners purely for this reason. There would have to be much more going on than a case of laminitis for horses to be siezed, it's nigh on impossible to get the RSPCA to intervene in my experience.

I have my own misgivings about the Strasser method so I'm not suprised equine welfare groups do too.

[horsemadmandy]

Hi
Yes totally agree with you however is there any law or formal research that these organisations have that is for public viewing that allows them to have the last say on the animals welfare? I am very new to the barefoot approach
and this news really scared me and the story got worse because her elderly horse died during this visit whilst sedated to be taken by the RSPCA. I will in the next week try and get the whole story because as you say if farriers were held responsible for their every error who would be a farrier.

[Crystal Fire]

I've got no intention of trimming my own horses that's for sure. I'm feeling pretty confident with the fella who's trimmed my 3, they are all looking good so far. Whoever trims them I take a healthy interest in what is happening though. I think that there may be a huge difference between a Strasser trimmer who is looking after some field-kept horses that are barefoot anyway, and them working on a horse that is very remedial and they do a clinical trim. I also wonder if sometimes the trimmer, owner or whoever, tries to do too much too soon, rather than letting the hoof have a chance to adjust through good trimming and proper hoof care?

[intouch]

Trimming a foot which has shown no evidence of problems is straightforward and I think it has been proven that there is little difference between the "schools" here.
It's when there is pathology that the arguments arise, and I don't think anyone who has not had a great deal of training and experience - ie the owner trimmer - should undertake this.

[horsemadmandy]

Hi
Changing the subject slightly, Has anyone attended a formal event ie hunting or pleasure ride with a barefoot horse? Are there any differences or questions asked as I would love to take my man out and about in the near future.

[intouch]

Yes we've done pleasure rides, mock hunts, Dressage, WH & SJ with our horses, occasionally a judge has commented but always favourably. :D

[MelanieD]

I've done dressage and showing barefoot, if anyone noticed they didn't care enough to mention it. Have a look at the barefoot forum at www.enlightenedequitation.com, I think people on there have done just about everything you can do on a horse barefoot.

[Bebe]

I've done local showing & Trec on an unshod horse (Trec wasn't on my horse but it was still without shoes). 1 person commented during the Trec about my horses lack of shoes but only in a general "oh he hasn't got shoes on" way, nothing nasty or anything.


It's when there is pathology that the arguments arise, and I don't think anyone who has not had a great deal of training and experience - ie the owner trimmer - should undertake this.

I agree, though at the same time I think a lot of farriers shouldn't be allowed to do this either. Technically farriers should have taken a further examination to be qualified as a remedial farrier but my experience in the real world is that this very rarely happens. As far as my mare goes I now know enough to realise that she should have been deemed a remedial case as far as her hooves go as soon as I got her, but 3 farriers later and with a horse who was on/off lame because of her hooves not one of them admitted that she was beyond their experience (well, she was beyond 2 of them anyway, the first one was great).

I know my own limits as far as trimming goes and wouldn't want the responsiblity of a remedial case (beyond my own horse) anyway. At the same time though if you've tried all the local farriers and still have a horse with problem hooves, what do you do???

[intouch]

As far as I can see, the problem with farriers is that they trim to leave enough wall to nail onto, which means they cannot remove flare, which is what causes most problems in the first place. Then they apply remedial shoes which restrict blood flow even more - but you can't tell people who don't want to know! :(

[jayuk]

HI
I have a new forest 14.1 mare who arrived from a friend about 3 years ago. she was not well look after :eek: so i left her for a year to settle with the herd. she gain weight and become alot happer around me, still have trouble getting headcollar near her, so was thinking would your way be a good begining for her, i have lots of time as there are 8 other horse with me to ride and drive.
i,ve never had a horse with hiccups before always had foals so no problems as i handle with care as they grow and they have no fear of me. they have good manners in the field stable and show ring,
please give me so feed back on this many thanks Jenny :)