Lunging after parelli.

[crazystevie]

Having started parelli, and having to stop because it wasn't working for us too well (and I had an instructor), I decided to go back to doing things my way. I only got as far as the ground work, and din't start the riding part.6 months after quitting parelli, my horse is respectful and affectionate, and doesn't seem confused about it when i'm on his back - just on the lunge. I don't do things the traditional way - do them my way, and this works really well for me, and my horse is much more responsive

The only problem I have is lunging my horse. After playing the circling game, my horse thinks, that after doing 3 laps on the lunge he can come in and get a rest. When he faces me, its impossible to get him to go back out on the lunge. I can get him out initally, but then it gets awkward. Does anyone have any tips for reeducating a horse to lunge again? He used to lunge perfectly, and do the parelli, has obviously confused him about this aspect of his training.

(please don't make me feel bad for quitting parelli - i tried it, and it really wasn't working for me or my horse. It wasn't my thing, and my horse was starting to lose his spark - he has it back now though :D )

[LindaAd]

Do you use a lunge whip, crazystevie? If you do, have you tried pointing it at his shoulder when he begins to come in? If he's learned about lunging before, then he should understand it as a signal to make the circle bigger.

If you don't, maybe you should try it? It might make it clear that you're playing the lunging game now.

What happens if you use the Parelli signal that he understands to move him away again?


Linda

[Supercali]

Don't feel guilty about stopping the Parelli work - if you and your horse weren't enjoying it or getting anywhere then it is counter-productive. The main thing is that you enjoy and build up a trust in each other.

I don't know the circumstances but it is possible to overdo the exercises and bore your horse. I know my cob gets bored really quickly if we do the same thing over and over and then starts misbehaving! I have to keep him occupied and interested.

Do you hold a lunge whip when you lunge? It's just that if I don't then my cob tries to face in. I don't actually use the whip on him but just holding it is enough. Also, you need to make sure that you are facing the centre of their body and not the head or the bum and when you notice that they might turn in then wave the lunge whip (you have to be quick - it took me a while to get this!)

Also, what might help is to shorten the lunge line and you walk on a smaller circle rather then standing still in the centre. You have more control and they don't turn in as much.

[crazystevie]

:rolleyes: I tried using a lunging whip as well as a carrot stick, and if you point it at his shoulder, he just runs into it. I really did desensitize him well lol! I try sending him the traditional way, he ignores me, and he also ignores the parelli way too. He goes out initially, but when he comes back in, its hard to get him back out again. Particularly on the left rein. He is 110% sound so it's a case of him being very confused, wising up to the fact that he can come in (he licks his lips every time - he thinks he's been clever :rolleyes: ) , he's very desensitized to lunging whips, and possibly trying to be ever slightly cheeky :p .

Basically, he needs to be taught to lunge. I have never taught a horse to lunge before. He lunged well before, and I was taught how to lunge a horse, but not how to show a horse how to lunge.

I've tried lunging him in a bridle, roller, cavesson and side reins, ni the hope that he gets the idea that he's lunging not playing the circle game, and he doesn't get it.

[Supercali]

He seems like he might be turning in as he is finding it hard to bend on his stiff side.

I wouldn't overdo the lunging but increase the time gradually and I found that side reins helped my cob - but obviously don't have them tight, just enough so they are straight/taut when they are standing.

When I first got my cob, he was really bolshy and resistant to work but it was mainly because he was stiff and unbalanced. It took a few weeks of lunging and circle work for him to improve. I do admit though that I did have to crack the lunge whip a couple of times to show him I meant business or he would do the same as your horse. It was quite tough for me as I am not that type of person but it depends on the horse as well.

[crazystevie]

I'm gonna give it another crack tonight - he doing more than 10minutes out of a 30minute lunging session though, so I wouldn't say he's overdoing it. He is stiff on that side, and struggles to go on that canter lead when schooling, so it probably is partly to do that. I think I might have to crack the whip a few times though, cuz he really does not care about it whatsoever. I hate having to be like that though!

[smaggi]

I don't know the circumstances but it is possible to overdo the exercises and bore your horse. I know my cob gets bored really quickly if we do the same thing over and over and then starts misbehaving! I have to keep him occupied and interested.

You described my horse perfectly. He loves it when I vary his work. If he's interested, he's great. When he gets bored, he will try everything to avoid it, including coming in on the lunge circle.



I do admit though that I did have to crack the lunge whip a couple of times to show him I meant business or he would do the same as your horse. It was quite tough for me as I am not that type of person but it depends on the horse as well.

You also described this perfectly too. I am not that type of person either. If anything I'm too lenient, but sometimes one good lesson is more effective than a lot of nagging. Start with a crack in the air, then tap him with it, but you may need to crack him with the whip eventually. Once he respects you, you won't need to do it and it will be enough to show him the whip. With Cisco I do all of his ground work with as light as force as possible, BUT as strong as necessary.

[crazystevie]

Start with a crack in the air, then tap him with it, but you may need to crack him with the whip eventually. Once he respects you, you won't need to do it and it will be enough to show him the whip.

I agree. Although desensitized him to the whip, it's got to a stage where he doesn't respect it, and ignores it. I don't want him to be afraid of it, just to know its purpose. I would say i'm way to leniant as well.

[Supercali]

I'm gonna give it another crack tonight - he doing more than 10minutes out of a 30minute lunging session though, so I wouldn't say he's overdoing it.

30 minutes is quite a long time on the lunge - they find it mentally and physically tiring. Try 10 minutes, or even 5 minutes, and build up gradually over a couple of weeks. I tend to only do 20 minutes max lunging.

My cob is a tough nut and I need to be firm with him but my 2 other horses are sensitive and would get upset if I cracked the whip at them or touched them with it.

[crazystevie]

What I meant was we end up spending 30minutes trying to get himout on the lunge. He gets about a 5-10 minute work out if that. 30minutes is a long time i guess. I'm probably better just getting him out once, bringing him back in, and leaving it on a good note. I didn't lunge him tonight though - tried his new hackamore out instead.

[Supercali]

What type of hackamore? I'm going to get a rope hackamore for my cob but I don't reckon that I am going to have brakes/control :p

[crazystevie]

I tried him in a rope hackamore ages ago, when i did parelli, but i found the steering and brakes difficult. I wasn't too keen on it, and neither was my horse. It might work for you though - it hink it depends on the horse. My horse is halter broken etc. and he didn't misbehave, I just found it very awkward, and he didn't seem to pleased with it.

A lot of people have recommended the DR. cook to me, but i've not tried one. It might be worth giving one of them a go.

It was an enlgish hackamore, without a curb chain. He responded beautifully in it, and his brakes and turning was much better. I was cantering him on a loose rein, and even galloped him in it, even though it was his first time wearing it. A lot of people are funny about the nose pressure on it, but I think provided it is used with care, and fitted properly, there shouldn't be a problem. my horse went much better in that than he does in a bit. I even got him doing lateral work and rein back in it. He stopped throwinbg his head up as well whenever I take up a contact.

[Supercali]

My husbnd has started using a Dr Cook with his horse and he is going well with it and even goinsoft and accepting contact. With a bit he used to go around with his head in the air. At first he did this with the Dr Cook until he realised that there was no bit to annoy him.

[LindaAd]

You described my horse perfectly. He loves it when I vary his work. If he's interested, he's great. When he gets bored, he will try everything to avoid it, including coming in on the lunge circle.




You also described this perfectly too. I am not that type of person either. If anything I'm too lenient, but sometimes one good lesson is more effective than a lot of nagging. Start with a crack in the air, then tap him with it, but you may need to crack him with the whip eventually. Once he respects you, you won't need to do it and it will be enough to show him the whip. With Cisco I do all of his ground work with as light as force as possible, BUT as strong as necessary.


Just wondering ... and sorry if this isn't helpful ... but are you very clear in your body language when you're asking him to go out and stay out?

Linda

[smaggi]

He has learned to respect me now and will stay out even at liberty, but you are right the secret was to exaggerate my body language and be very consistent with it. I have to point AND look in the direction I want him to go. If I kept looking at him he didn't get it. When I ask him in to the circle I step in front of his drive line, step backword and look down . If I forget and keep looking at him, he won't come in.

It took me a long time to figure out what body language worked with him. He is a pretty lazy horse and if he is in a lazy mood he will still try to test me sometimes to see if he can come into the circle when he wants.

[cvb]

The only problem I have is lunging my horse. After playing the circling game, my horse thinks, that after doing 3 laps on the lunge he can come in and get a rest.

As you know, L1 Circle Game is on the 12ft rope, and they advise "less than 4 circuits" but to vary it. We always comment how stressful lunging can be, but seem surprised by what Parelli says - but lunging on what is effectively a 6 m circle is going to be pretty hard work ! hence limiting the circuits.

BUT you need to avoid getting into a pattern. I know this is already history for you - but it may help sort things out.

When he faces me, its impossible to get him to go back out on the lunge. I can get him out initally, but then it gets awkward.

What is the difference between the initial "sending out" and the next one ? I would just stay calm and ask him out again, until he gets the message that there is no "comfort" in coming in until you ASK him in :rolleyes:

I also quite like the Mark Rashid approach, where you walk with the horse, and use the speed you walk at to signal what speed you want from the horse.

The advantage of being with the horse like this is that you can stay close enough to have good control, but make the circle nice and big :D

Does anyone have any tips for reeducating a horse to lunge again? He used to lunge perfectly, and do the parelli, has obviously confused him about this aspect of his training.

see above - I'd go from leading, and increase the distance gradually so that he understands what you are asking. Stay calm and just ask again when he tries to come in.

[crazystevie]

What is the difference between the initial "sending out" and the next one ? I would just stay calm and ask him out again, until he gets the message that there is no "comfort" in coming in until you ASK him in

I send him the same way to how i do to start with, but he just ignores me, no matter how much i up the pressure, and just walks in to me.

CVB, i do really like the sound of the mark rashid idea, i might giev that a bash, and find a bit more about it. That might work better withhim.

[cvb]

Crazystevie

I'm not sure he describes it in his books. I happened to attend a clinic, and as my horse had a badly fitting sadly and was a bit sore, we did some ground work.

The "traditional" way to teach lunging here is to have the person facing the horse straight on, and making a "triangle" - to their head with the lunge rein and to their hindquarters with the whip.

I've never really got on with that and used an approach where the person turns so they are more facing the direction the horse is moving, and can walk a small (or large) circle.

Parelli then teaches you to stand still and let the horse circle you...

So at this stage Fi was happy with either approach.

Mark's approach is a refinement of "my" lunging method. he has a progression which goes from leading, to lunging, to ground driving in a logical consistent way. (Haven't seen the ground driving part of this).

The person is placed a little further "behind" the horse than in "normal" lunging, so you are driving them a little more. I think this nicely follows from leading them and gives a clear cue to the horse on what you are asking.

The problem with the "stand in the middle" is that it is harder for us humans to distinguish between when we want them just to stand still, and when we want them to move around us. Its not impossible but its less immediately obvious. The horse will therefore offer us a range of responses til we tell them they got it right.

With the "walk with them" approach its much clearer (IMHO) for the human in terms of what they are trying to say to the horse (and hence clearer to the horse as well).

[crazystevie]

I'm definately gonna give that Mark Rashid thing a go. He basically needs to be retaught how to lunge. He just likes to stand in the middle next to me. I make sure i make it really difficult for him to do so, but obviously i don't want to make him feel bad for coming to me for attention. I have a young TB who's lunging has gone to pot as well after being on box rest for about 3 months, so i'll probably teach her that way.

Thanks for your help everyone

[Dizzy]

If I were you I'd go back to inhand work, although I'm he already knows walk on,halt and back, I'd start there giving lots of praise for the correct response. Then move onto teaching him to do the do the same, but (by lengthing the lead rien a couple of feet) to do it away from you.

Then I'd put long riens on and work around markers to start, then put him out on a circle, remaining in walk, but swapping between circle and cone work - so that he can't anticipate and must listen to your requests.

Once he's listening, focussed and obedient to your requests, I'd introduce trot on the circle in long riens, and work on ie 3 circuits of trot - i in walk and repeat it.

If he doesn't understand or won't move forward off long rien lunging clip a lead rien on and get someone to lead him while you get him used to the lines.

When you want re-educate a horse, always start at the beginning, don't fall into the trap of thinking 'well he's done this before, so he knows what I mean'. Go back to the start and praise, and move on from there.

[chev]

Traditional teaching recommends that when teaching a horse to lunge you have two people - one in the middle, and one on the outside of the circle at the horse's head showing him what's required. The traditional approach has always seemed the most sensible to me; if a horse truly doesn't understand what is required, having someone to lead him around to start with is by far the easiest, clearest and most straightforward way to clarify things.

Once the horse has got the idea of what's required, the outside leader can drop back and away so that control is gradually shifted entirely to the person in the middle. The person in the middle does need to have some awareness of body language.

Starting again with a helper would probably help get him over the idea that he can turn in after 3 laps too. :)

[Yann]

Just another thought, could you long line instead and gradually reintroduce circling? You would be more mobile that way, he would hopefully understand your body language and you could use the outside line to help keep him out?

[crazystevie]

I've never long lined before- not been taught how to, and I don't want to make a mess of it if I just try to do it with him, as I know its a lot more complex than lunging. I know basically how to do it, but i'd rather be shown, just to make sure i'm doing a good job of it. I imagine he'll do that really well though, as it's a bit different to the circling game in parelli, and that might not confise him to much. I'm probably going to get my instructor in to teach me, and maybe help me with my lunging problem. I'm gonna start working on the lunging this weekend, when my mum can come down and help me herself. We've done the leadnig thing. But once the helper gopes away he does one more lap, than comes back him. He's a cheeky chappy when he wanta to be

[horsemadmandy]

Hi
I am in a situation where I have taken on a horse who I have been told has been abused in the past as a dressage horse and will not lunge school or stable although he is the most reliable hack he also avoids contact with the bit. We have managed a few seat lessons on the lunge at walk only and he has every time turned in on the instructor and gone to bite ears back and made himself look very scarey but has never bitten not yet anyway. He is very unhappy for weeks after and even becomes spooky on hacks and becomes rude on the ground. Has anybody got any thoughts on how I can start to tackle his insecurities or is it worth just leaving alone and stick to what he is happy with?

[crazystevie]

You're probably doing the right thing getting yout instructor out, as she'll help you a lot. I think you just need to spend a lot of time with this horse on the ground. Groom him a lot, go in the school and lead him about, and see if he'll follow you. Try and get a carrot stick or schooling whip or even your hands, and try and see if he'll let you touch him everywhere. STart from the front and work your way back. If he's worried about anywhere, go back to where he's comfortable. You need to teach him that not all humans are horrible. As for the stabling issue, try and have a stable which has a grill in the middle, with a horse next door, as having company often helps a lot. Try to make sure he gets plenty of turnout, and just let him be a horse generally.

You just need to take things slowly with him, and do lots of groundwork. When you handle him, make sure you have everything together to start with so he has your comlpete attention - it does make a huge difference. Don't just ride him, spend lots of time stroking his face, and doing things on the ground which he enjoys. It'll help him build up a lot of trust and affection towards you, and this trust will reflect into the saddle, and he should be a lot more laid back on the ground.

As for the lungin, I would follow some of the advice in this thread, as well as have the help from your instructor, and you should manage.

He will come round and chill out, but you'll have to be very patient with him.

[Yann]

Horsemadmandy, it might also be worth trying a bitless bridle to help regain his confidence such as the Dr Cook, that can sometimes make a big difference to a horse in your position.

[horsemadmandy]

HI
Thanks for the really helpful replies. I am spending many hours at present on the ground with Bruce and it was only thursday that he called to me when I came to the field, What a good feeling that was!

I am keeping him at a farm that practices Natural Horsemanship and they are all great and supportive infact they were holding a clinic today in the outside paddock, Bruce is very scared of this paddock because I think it reminds him of an arena. I was able to lead him on the outside to graze when on a few occasions he looked to see what the other horses were doing and the entire time I stroked him as you suggested and he really felt quite relaxed.
The previous owner had told me that he is very scared of people in puffer jackets and he is as I met a walker down the lane on a hack wearing one and he was on his back legs as soon as he saw them and started to tremble violently. Today he saw a puffer jacket hanging on the gate and he was terrified with the same response although we were able to comfort him and diffuse the situation by removing it I felt bad because he was so worried when I left him.
What would be the best thing to do here? Should I start introducing this type jacket under controlled situations and help him through this because lets face it we are going to come across a few of these jackets over winter!
Thanks about the suggestion re bitless bridle as I have briefly thought about that option but I know very little about them.

Although Bruce has many problems I just see him as a complete sweety who actually gives so much love considering the terrible time he has had at sometime during his life and there are many situations where he can be so Brave. I will include pics when I can work out how to. Mandy X

[crazystevie]

I'm sure Brucve will settle down - and your definately doing the right things with him. He just needs to learn that not all people are horrible!

As for the puffer jacket situation, probably let him see it in a controlled situation. Hang one on the pasture gate perhaps, whilst he is in his feild (remove it when coming in and out the field though). Once he gets used to seeing it, put it on the floor, and leave him, and let him figure out himself what it is, and that it isn't so scary. After he has sniffed it, give him his tea next to it. Make it part of everyday life. Eventually, he might let you rub him all over with it. At that stage you yourself could wear the coat, and see how he reacts. He sounds like he trusts you as well, so he probably won't be scared if you show him its not.

[horsemadmandy]

Thanks I find your advice spot on and I will be introducing your ideas next week. I will keep ypu updated on the progress.

[horsemadmandy]

Hi
We have had a really good week!
Bruce has allowed the bit and we are communicating for the first time. We also had a lesson in the outdoor paddock and we managed to get him in and keep his interest for a whole hour without any difficult situations. I am so happy I love my horse.

[emilypaigeminni]

Hi

i have just read this post about lunging and parelli i had a horse that did both, but when she had decided enough was enough on the lunge she would just turn in so i atached a lunge line on both sides of the cavesson and put one round her bum and then when she tried to come in i had the other line to turn her back out again, i wasnt taught this, it was difficult at first to cope with two lines but if you start in walk it is quite easy and then when you want to turn them on to the other rein you just ask with the outside line, it is also good for outline and stopping and if you have used parelli your horse should be pretty desensitised to having ropes all over the place

hope this helps Emily

[crazystevie]

I actually have him lunging now! He just clicked on again, and he's lunging like a normal horse lol! - Maybe he was just tricking me. I evenm handing him lnuging over some little jumps and stuff!

Thanks for all your help everyone - it's been a real help, espesh the mark rashid thing