Good new for bitless people

[No_Angel]

I went to a show today with Murphy and Maddie (both bitless and treeless).
I saw a hackamore on ebay that intersted me, but missed out on buying it so went out yesterday and bought a pelham to make my own, cant belive i didnt think of it before :rolleyes:
Hacksawed the cheeks off a rubber pelham and made it into a hackamore by adding a front strap and putting a curb on the back.
I used it in conjuntion with his normal bridle with his big thick noseband over the top of the front strap, but it didnt really work and ended up being above it.
I was placed second, the judge had a look but didnt say anything and murphy went alot better than in his pelham.
I also took Maddie in in her double fluffy bitless but got palced 3rd out of three. Again nothing was said abiout being bitless (or my treeless saddles :D )
So theres hope for us yet

[Showjumper]

Yay great stuff! Fascinated though by your new bitless - any chance of a photo?

[No_Angel]

I try and get a photo tomorow for you :D

[Pink's lady]

Sounds interesting. I spent all last night altering an english hackemore to give it an elastic curb and poll for Pink. She was used for a uni Freshers comp and has a sore mouth (chewing barbed wire :rolleyes: ) and I didn't want the the novice riders yanking her about. It worked wonders and she was a star today.

Actually, real question - I seen to remember someone writing to the British Dressage asking them if you can compete it a Dr Cook (at unaffilitaed). Did they ever get a reply? I'd be interested to find out as Carys goes better bitless but her owner does a lot of dressage.

[Jacquie]

I seen to remember someone writing to the British Dressage asking them if you can compete it a Dr Cook (at unaffilitaed). Did they ever get a reply? I'd be interested to find out as Carys goes better bitless but her owner does a lot of dressage.
It would be excellent if bitless bridles where allowed to be used in unaffilated dressage - it would be the perfect solution for my personal dilema. However, I seem to think (although I may be wrong) the rules state that bits must be used in all levels of dressage. :(

[claire hodgson]

I just re read the rules the other day - bits still required.

Dr Cook himself has written to the FEI re. bitless bridles & use thereof in competition; I don't suppose we should hold our breaths!

I shall go HC in due course; however, I am cheered to know that at least one instructor (who is also a dressage judge) in this area teaches people who are both bitless & treeless (although I gather the bitless people may not be the treeless people). So if judges are accepting it, eventually the powers that be will, one imagines.

[LindaAd]

Actually, real question - I seen to remember someone writing to the British Dressage asking them if you can compete it a Dr Cook (at unaffilitaed). Did they ever get a reply? I'd be interested to find out as Carys goes better bitless but her owner does a lot of dressage.

I think affiliated competitions can set their own rules, but most of them seem to choose to use the BD rules. Maybe a group of enthusiasts could get together and run a competition where bitless bridles are allowed - or maybe there are some like that already...

Linda

[Drummers mum]

Ooo you have been designing again! :D Need a pic though, I have a very strange one in my head............lol! :D

[jinglejoys]

Noangel--seems like you had a Judge who was prepared to look at the equine and rider rather than judge the tack! The more people who are prepared to test the boundaries the more who will be accepted--say she who rides Mules :D

[cvb]

CRC (Classical Riding Club) tests allow all sorts of saddle, but I can't remember for sure if they allow bitless ? Anyone know ?

Rather fancy being able to do dressage in my western saddle ;) but never seen any CRC tests running locally :(

[No_Angel]

Jinglejoys- id love a Mule, but mum says no until I get my own field :( :D
Im tempted to breed one out of my sports horse mare, but a few people have said shed never speak to me again if I did, my girl is a bit of a snob, lol.

Hopefully she was looking at the combination, rather than his tack. I did however get a disgusted look from a lady who asked what bit he was wearing as she hadnt seen it before, when I told her it used to be a pelham and is now a hackamore, she turned up her nose at me, then asked if he couldnt take a bit, and I said he was fine with a bit, I just prefer bitless, there was another shocked disgusted look :rolleyes:

[piebaldrider]

I found myself reading a web page or ten all about the Dr Cook bitless bidle and it sounds good to me but i suppose i need to get my head round the whole subject properly...SOOOOOOo are they realy better that than a bitted bridle?

Do you have enough control ? Apparently you can stop a horse much easier with one of these, is it true?

my horse leans badly to the right and i read that the bit could be the problem and for reasons to long to go into ( bucking incident- broken arm) i'm thinking that pain in the mouth could be part if not all of the problem.

I'm very keen to find out as much as i can from real people rather than from advertising. I'm also keen to have try one but a little nervous too.

[cvb]

piebaldrider

there are a few threads on here on the Dr Cook and other bitless options. Has an equine dentist checked your horse out ? I guess the thing you need to watch is that a bitless bridle is not also going to put pressure on whatever is sore !

[No_Angel]

I think there are alot of posts on here about the Dr Cook, if you type in Dr Cook in the search you will probably get alot of reading material.
I know a few us on here have them, me being one of them. 3 of my horses didnt really like it much, well not that they didnt like it, just prefer a differnt bitless more. My x racer does like it, and did go well in it, but the cross straps rubbed her when she learnt to lean on the pressure and drag me home, shes not exactly strong but shes a big 16.3 ex national hunt racer and I have very weak wrists that pop out of place and pull frequently :rolleyes: .
I liked it so have added a hackamore to the equation now, so I mostly ride off the Dr Cook and the hackamore comes into play only when I need it. Her bridle looks a bit of a mess and a bit like torture to non-bitless people, but alot kinder than what most of them are using.

My HW cob leans terribly on bits, or used to, he did lean on the Dr Cook aswell, but since using a hackamore he has become very light in front and now schools beautifully. Not long ago I tried him in a rubber snaffle and he was brill, really light, now before the hackamore I wouldnt have even thought about using a rubber snaffle on him.

[piebaldrider]

Thanks for that.

he had his teeth done about 3 months ago but i'm having a different dentist out just to be sure.

I will do a search on the Dr Cook and see what others think. I will have a read up and find out about the hackamore too.

I will go and buy a rubber snaffle tomorrow and see if that helps.

Thanks!

[cvb]

just be aware that there are other bitless options as well ! There is the scawbrigg, or in US they have a "jumping hackamore" (which is very similar and NOT a german hackamore). I have a bosal (western) and also some "half-bosals" from Lodge Ropes :D

There's a "wheeled" noseband hackamore thingie - never used it but seen adverts. (The side is a "spoked wheel" shape which means you have various rein and cheekpiece attachment points).

And then you have the shanked hackamores - english and german.

Thats why its useful to think about where the problem is and which bitless may suit best as a result.

[No_Angel]

http://www.freewebs.com/alternativehorse/

Here we go- try this :D

[LodgeRopes]

Awwwwwwww!!!! thats another 5 quid we owe you CVB

[LodgeRopes]

Cathy is on a five quid commission to mention us in every post she makes.
lol........

Dr cooks bitless bridle is more popular in the UK than anywhere else....why????
Why do people into natural training/riding think this is a viable option????
if there was ever a piece of equipment that destroys natural techniques, its this face cruncher bridle. How come our horses stop when we lift our reins yet some others need to have a device strapped onto their horses head that is worse than a mechanical hackamore or extreme shanked bit....yet call it natural.....
i know this will get a lot of people mad and p****d off, but it is the truth.
Your ability as a reinsman/woman is judged by the technical assistance you use. leverage devices hide your inability to get it right, constriction devices are cruel...pure and simple. We dont care if we never sell another thing to the UK, but this plague of gimmick bridles being adopted by natural riders has to stop. Use a Dr cook bridle if you wish, but dont pee in my pocket and tell me its raining. The Dr Cook bridle is in the same group as sure stops, mechanical hacks and a basball bat with 6" nails.

If you use one..........dont try to convince me its ok........I know it is not OK!!
You live with your decisions and inability to ride naturally...whatever that means in the UK. We deal with real people, trying to get soft with their horses and trying non mechanical techniques.

soft .....natural ....experimental.....a learning experience....

Yep, we have played with a Dr Cooks Bridle. it set our horses back, had them dragging their heads on the ground trying to get relief from the pressure,
it destroyed the basic principle of giving to pressure.

if i have offended anyone.........bad luck,
live with your choices.
If you are unable to have your ride follow your cues with a minimum of pressure........start working harder! Shove your latest horsey DVD and actually work with your horse. Monty, Pat or Clinton will not save you, only you can make a difference.
Tack does not train horses, people train horses.........there are no short cuts to knowledge. Dr cook preys on the weak.

Having said all that,,,............let me introduce our new natural Horsemanship Bridle...it has a 6" nail on the noseband that impales the horse if it wanders off the 20m circle..............

I just wish that we didnt have to deal with the Dr Cooks of this world.
But it does show that there will always be those that prey on the desperate.

Dont post telling us how good the Dr Cook bridle is, or make excuses as to why you use one........they are just excuses.

Dr Cook has even re wrote the anatomy of the horse to remove the facial nerve from the cheek........

in the words of a 2nd century chinese wise man, Who Flung Dung, its all chinese to me.
Dr cooks lawyers please form an orderly cue to the right.

[No_Angel]

Can I ask why this has been posted on my thread?:confused:

[LodgeRopes]

No Angel.........
its not my fault
cathy made me do it :rolleyes:

[LodgeRopes]

Did I say cathy.........(how do you spell freudian slip)
sorry Angel
It just gripes my cookies when I read anything about Dr Cook

[No_Angel]

Its ok :) I know what it feels like for no one to understand how much you dont agree with things

[piebaldrider]

Well hello Lodge rope- i can't claim to have been around these forums very long so no idea who u r or *** u r about but you seem to feel very strongly about the Dr cook, i can't claim to have fully got to grips with your post but i'm open to everyones opinion.

You are the first person who's post i have read on Dr Cook that doesn't support the idea. Now there are 2 sides to every story and we can all have an opinion but i have never used one so can only look to others for advice and inspiration.
Having been suddenly and without warning bucked wildly from my horses back only to break an arm and be unable to ride and lose confidence , i was just looking at the possibility that the bit may have hurt my horse and was trying to look for ways to ensure i didn't hurt him again and face the same fate.

It may not have been a bit problem but i need to search every avenue and now i'm even more confused and don't know which way to turn.

[claire hodgson]

I read that post by lodgeropes with some amazement; whilst she clearly feels very passionate on the subject, I'm not sure that it was a really helpful response to the query posed.

And as to the Dr Cook - my mare is very happy in it (should have seen her in a bit, nightmare) and my vet is quite happy as well

[piebaldrider]

claire funny you should say that as you just reminded me that my vet rides both her horses in a Dr cook . I'm going to ask her if i can borrow it just so i can see what it's like for myself.

Others opinions and information are important to me or i wouldn't be here but i think in this case i'm just going to have to see for myself.

[cvb]

No Angel.........
its not my fault
cathy made me do it :rolleyes:

There's a saying up here in Scotland "A big boy did it and ran away...!" ;)

Anyway - I have never seen bitless as anything unusual, probably due to use of an english hackamore early in my riding career (on an appy cross pony mare with soft skin on her mouth and no brakes :eek: bitless was really the only option til we got the brakes sorted through schooling - in the bitless )

As I have found my needs adequately met by all existing options (scawbrigg, bosal etc), I haven't tried the Dr Cook. But I do confess I have a mental problem with it.

Has anyone else ever done that thing where you manage to cross the reins only don't realise til you've got on ? And then, for a laugh, tried to ride like that ? It blows your mind cos you have to reverse everything.

Kind of like when you try to reverse a trailer :rolleyes: only worse !

Well in a crossover bridle my rein is attached to the other side of the horse... and I just struggle with that concept. In my mind it would be like trying to talk to the horse but with one of those electronic voice distortions in place between you...

and yes I KNOW people have had good results with it. Similar to the pelham - I may not understand why it gets good results but it does.

But for me there are simpler versions which work equally well. And I'm very much in "less is more" mode these days.

piebaldrider - I appreciate that the differing views may have muddied the water for you. But this is why I was suggesting you need to pinpoint the problem. If he has a jaw issue, bunging something around it may not help. There are a number of bitless options, and you need to match design to horse/issue...

The cross-over style bridle MAY be a good option for you, or it may not. Personally I would go for as simple solution as I can.

The other thing about some of the simpler bitless options is that they can be used in tandem with a bit. So when/if you get back to bitting, you can ride with 2 reins and help the transition.

I'm not sure this is possible with a crossover bridle ?

[piebaldrider]

Ok Thanks for that.

Not sure he does have a Jaw issue the dentist came about 4 weeks before his bucking episode and he was ok then but he's coming back for another look anyway

I don't want him to be in pain of any sort and i'm far from being an expert on these matters , Dr cooks are advertised as less likely to cause any discomfort so i thought i'd just see what people thought.

Just about everything i read says if he bucks for nothing (and i can't find any reason) then he's most likely in pain. He didn't stop bucking when i hit the ground so pain sounds possible.

Just to be sure he's getting his back and saddle checked as well, so i wasn't thinking bitless was the answer to all my problems but just possibly may help.

I will do a bit more research before i try him in Dr Cooks or anything else. Thanks for all the advice.

[claire hodgson]

1. if you see www.bitlessbridle.com and www.bitlessbridle.co.uk, you will see loads and loads of testimonials re its efficacy in various situations

2. also, see molly & the bitless bridle, www.20six.co.uk/clairehodgson for an account of my mare's improvement (the photos are a bit old, though, if you go look at them)

3. the reins work in exactly the same way as with a bitted bridle. you pull right, the horse is directed to turn right. But instead of pulling the bars of the mouth on that side, you are in effect pushing it from the other side by the action of the crossover. I am finding that less hand more leg is better, however

4. they can be used with a bit in place as well - attached to a different bridle (there are reports of that being done, but the bit not in fact being used).

5. I don't know about any other bitless not having used one. I just thought, that looks as though it'll be the thing for Molly, and I was right, it was. She might be tried in a bit in the dim and distant future, or she might not (probably not - I don't want to go back to fighting about it!).

6. If possible, I would think (after you've investigated all physical causes, of course) trying as many types as possible would be a plan; trouble is, that comes expensive. And some, of course, are VERY severe in their action on the poll/nose

7. BUT bitlessbridle.co.uk do a 30 day trial - if within the 30 days you send it back, you get your money back. check it out.

Hope that all helps.

and LodgeRopes - if you give a reasoned explanation of the differences and why yours is better etc, you would assist all of us (PS, I have checked out your website). It may be you have done so elsewhere, in which case I haven't seen it yet.

[claire hodgson]

ps - cvb, if you cross the reins on a bitted bridle it is confusing as you pull right but you are pulling on the left side of the mouth; not the same as with the Dr Cooks or similar, due to the way in which the straps are arranged within the bridle.

[cvb]

ps - cvb, if you cross the reins on a bitted bridle it is confusing as you pull right but you are pulling on the left side of the mouth; not the same as with the Dr Cooks or similar, due to the way in which the straps are arranged within the bridle.

Claire - don't worry, as I said the point is the issue is in MY HEAD and not necessarily "real". :rolleyes: But as I don't have any kind of unfulfilled need (having a wide selection of bitless already), I simply haven't needed to try the Dr Cook !

I happen to believe that if the rider is confused, their aids will be confused (even if the bridle is fine) and the horse will end up confused as well. Thats why I haven't used my bosal much (yet) as I need to work out the clarity of cues before I start trying to ask my horse questions !

That and they won't let me do dressage bitless so we have to work bitted - and she's actually fine in a FL loose ring...

[claire hodgson]

lucky you, being able to use a bit ....

[cvb]

Claire - should I be smug ?? In reality we have our problems ( she finds the world a very worrying and scary place, and has had a sore back).

I find it interesting that having a "problem" can lead people to explore options they might not otherwise approach - natural horsemanship, bitless, treeless - because the conventional, traditional, "norm" fails to provide a solution.

I don't believe I have a "problem" horse (despite not hacking out) yet feel her well-being is my responsibility, but sometimes it has hard to move out of the norm given the "if it aint broke don't fix it" theory ;) Just cos it "aint broke" doesn't mean it can't be improved ;)

I guess its partly my work/professional training that makes me want to strive for "excellence" (this is not about riding at a higher level, but about riding at my own level "with excellence"). Either that or I'm just competitive :rolleyes:

I'm also one of those annoying people who ask "why" a lot ! ;)

[cvb]

going to resurrect this slightly as a week or so after this conversation I tried out the half-bosal on my western bridle and was playing around with cues and turning...

and realised something.

A traditional bosal (the stiff type) is quite rigid. So if I take my hand say to the right, I am going to move the bosal away from the right side of the horse's face but closer to the left side

so in a way this type of bridle has exactly the same mental dilemma for me as the Dr Cook i.e. that the action is "indirect" not direct.

This is over simplifying massively as the actions ARE different, but my "left to turn right" confusion is the same. And I was getting my head around it with the half-bosal, so clearly its do-able (for me, the horse has no problems with it other than the rider not making sense !!)

(And again, the half-bosal is a soft bosal so will not be quite the same indirect action....)

By the way, the half-bosal rode like a treat and Fi and I had some real fun with it :D

I really start to feel that my parelli L1 riding is do-able as I was able to use the half-bosal to ask for the lateral softness I needed. I can see how this will help my back in bitted riding as well :D