Join-Up on an emotionally unstable horse...PLEASE HELP ME (long)

[Unbridled]

Haven't posted in a while because I've been having some problems with Sugar. Most people who read my posts are probably aware that I have had a few minor problems with her--basically minor instances of napping, although she did bolt once. I worked with a NH trainer for several months and things seemed to be going fine. Then I decided to switch from western to English riding and I got a new instructor.

Things were going well with the new instructor and Sugar seemed fine until a few weeks ago. Then one day I was riding her in the arena and she started bucking when I asked for a canter. Not big bucks so not a big deal (I thought). She was also going into heat, which I thought was the whole problem. However, the problem didn't adjust itself when her heat ended. Instead, she bucked again, a week later, when I tried to ride her out of the arena to the trails. She didn't want to leave the arena and started bucking at the doorway. When I got her head up to keep her from bucking and tried to get her forward, she reared, which she's never done before. This time I consulted the instructor.

My new instructor noted I had some respect issues with Sugar (she's a dominant horse anyway) and she suggested doing a combination of join-up and the Parelli seven games. I've been doing a form of Parelli (taught to me by another trainer) for some time but I've never tried join up. So I booked a groundwork lesson and had my instructor show me how. Sugar flipped out and became very angry with us when we drove her away from us--she bucked and kicked and tore around as fast as she could. It took her well over an hour to finally join up. My instructor cited this, again, as a respect issue and told me to continue with the join-up every day and also not to ride her until she was willing to join up without such an argument.

So I did join up twice last week on my own--took an hour each time--and then once on Friday with my instructor. This time Sugar was really angry and throwing tantrums and by the time she gave in (over an hour) she was dripping sweat--literally dripping. My instructor says now that she no longer believes this is a respect issue alone. She says Sugar was "turned off" emotionally and now that we are doing join up we are pushing her out of her comfort zone and bringing all this hidden resentment to the surface. I know that Sugar was abused and neglected in her past--and she's been through seven owners--so I'm not surprised she's resentful. But it's odd that she went months with me being almost perfect and suddenly she's being horrible. My instructor says my old instructor was teaching me to "put a bandaid" on the problem when he showed me how to prevent napping, ect, but that we weren't looking at the underlying cause. She thinks Sugar has probably been this way for a very long time (long before I got her) and that she's afraid of fully opening up to people. She loves me, says instructor, but she is not fully trusting of me or anyone.

Does any of this sound right? This is a horse that, just a few weeks ago, I could hack out alone with no problem! Yes, she napped, but it was never unmanageable. Now she is bucking and rearing?? Also, the tantrums she throws during join-up are violent. Like this morning she actually threatened to kick me (I say threatened because if she'd wanted to really kick me she could have, but she didn't). She also got so upset she began galloping and seemed out of control for a minute--but just as quickly she settled down and joined up in less than half an hour, which was the quickest time ever. She has begun running to meet me at the gate when I come to the field and she also has started following me around without a halter on, which I think it because of join-up. Yet is it normal for her to be so angry at the beginning? I've had her nine months and had no idea she was so full of rage, but the instructor says it must have been brewing all along--and longer. She's actually made me promise that I will sell Sugar if she intentionally hurts me (like by kicking, ect) yet I don't really believe Sugar would do that! This is a horse I took out on a five hour ride in a state park just two months ago! This is a horse who, on Independence Day, carried two seven year old girls on her back while I led her around the arena! Why has she started acting like this??? She's never been perfect, but at least I could trust her....Have I gone wrong with her somewhere? Please someone help!!

***Before anyone asks, Sugar's back, teeth, and saddle have all been recently checked and were given the clear. According to everyone who's looked at her she has no physical reason to be doing this. Which is exactly what makes it so confusing to me.

[Tootsie4U]

To my knowledge, join up shouldnt have to be done over and over. I have an extremely dominant horse with outrageous respect issues and I'd consider hour long sessions several days a week too much. But, thats just my opinion.

I say it alot, you can't fix a problem until you know why there is one in the first place. When a horse goes from good to bad like yours has, I immediately think something physical followed closelyby diet. If its not that, then I'd consider that the horse is just responding to the newness of a routine.

So, in that, has her feed changed? What, if anything, in her routine has changed? Could she be responding to the change in your position as her alpha since you've been working so intently on the NH? Some horses will become "resentful" of the new relationship.

[Unbridled]

To my knowledge, join up shouldnt have to be done over and over. I have an extremely dominant horse with outrageous respect issues and I'd consider hour long sessions several days a week too much. But, thats just my opinion.

I say it alot, you can't fix a problem until you know why there is one in the first place. When a horse goes from good to bad like yours has, I immediately think something physical followed closelyby diet. If its not that, then I'd consider that the horse is just responding to the newness of a routine.

So, in that, has her feed changed? What, if anything, in her routine has changed? Could she be responding to the change in your position as her alpha since you've been working so intently on the NH? Some horses will become "resentful" of the new relationship.

Nothing in her diet has changed since early spring, when their grain rations were reduced when they were put out to grass. The only change in routine is that we are now involved (or were involved before the issues cropped up) in English instead of Western lessons.

Might be due to my new Alpha status. Truly, I had been letting her get away with a lot of very subtle signals of disrespect, which I didn't even notice until my new instructor pointed out to me. Sugar was not snappy or bargy, but sometimes she did small things like turning her hip to me "dismissively" while in the stall. Since I no longer allow this type of behavior maybe she's angry? Yet the bucking/rearing started before I began this, so I'm not sure...

My instructor swears this is not the "sudden" issue it appears. She says that Sugar must have been bottling up resentment for some time and that the napping was a sign she was unhappy. Since I was basically ignoring her unhappiness (by driving her forward when she wanted to turn back) she finally became angry and in a way, violent (bucking/rearing instead of just napping).

If there is a physical cause for this I swear I don't know what it is. I've had her fully checked by two vets. She has two saddles--an English one borrowed from my instructor and my own Western endurance one. Both saddles fit and she reacts the same way in each of them--perfectly fine until you try to make her do something she doesn't want to do. I recently switched her from a Wonderbit to a loose-ring, French-link snaffle, yet it can't be a bit problem because not only is the bit a perfect fit but she also reacts the same way in a hackamore or rope halter.

[Tootsie4U]

When the tables turn, some of them react like "holy crow! when did she get so smart?! Ok, I better do what she wants since she obviously knows the deal now" or some react aggressively because they dont approve of you challenging their position (in affect, thats exactly what we do - take away their herd status from them). They were #1 and now here you come trying to take that away from them.

Im not 100% sold on my own advise though because the napping part has me wondering. Horses usually nap because of inexperience / confidence issues, not because they are challenging your authority necessarily.

[Naturally]

Appy_Luv, I actually agree with your instructor on this. This often happens with horses that have been troubled in the past and people blame the program/trainer/anything but it really is emtional baggage from the horse. It might never have happened if you didn't push the buttons, but then again, it might also have happened and been very very serious. My gut feeling is that it would have happened, as you recognise that she is a dominant horse in your post and it nearly always comes to the surface as dominance is a very important part of the herd environment and dominant horses WANT to win it.

Now I know that a lot of people will disagree with both me and your instructor and say it's bull, and ultimately you are going to have to follow your instincts. But for my 2 cents worth, if you want to help this horse, you are going to have to embark on a bit of a journey.

I don't know much about join up, but I think the psychology is largely the same as PNH. I do know that Parelli works with every horse, but in PNH you also need to learn to push buttons in your games and not make the 7 games the 7 jobs for the horse. I'll leave that up to you. if you want to know more, just ask.

Good luck.

[horsemadmandy]

Hi
I have a horse with problems and I keep in NH environment. He has never been troubled as your horse not yet anyway but he did give me hell when I was trying to ask him to show me respect. Your horse sounds like she has moved onto another stage of her healing and you just need to tell her that it is okay.Act in the same way you have and let her know you are still the leader and you are up for this new behaviour and you can deal with it the same way you always have. I feel if you keep consistent with her she will come out of this stage she is going through. She is just wanting to know that things although have changed you have not. Good Luck x

[KateWooten]

I have the exact same horse, mine's called Rosie. She has been perfect, totally perfect, never giving me the slightest hint ( I never picked up her slightest hint ) that she would attack me. She put me in hospital, and I continued her training afterwards, starting her under saddle, and able to 'do' all sorts of exercises with her... but still with this nagging doubt .. she's not like my other youngster ... she's 'tolerating' everything I do ... she's never totally focussed on me.... I can do a lot with this mare - you would watch her under saddle and see how fluid she is, how easily she sidepasses, how soft she is to every aid, how I can ride her at any gait on a loose rein... but still I know, this is not quite right - there are things I can't do - she sometimes gives me a threatening look ... I don't have her full attention...

Can you get hold of a really good horse gentler ? I had a direct student of Ray Hunt come out this week, work with Rosie and me for nearly 3 hours, and cost me $100. I have a whole new horse now. There is no substitute for seeing the real thing in action. And much as I would like to think I could one day become a true horse gentler myself, it is not true. I can sit a bucking horse, and drive on a rearing horse, but I don't think I could ever rope a horse like he did. I can practice my release timing, and I will, but I'd be lucky if I even approach the finesse, the perfection, of this guy who danced with my Rosie. She turned into putty in his expert hands. And today she's a doll in my own inexpert, but improving hands.

[KateWooten]

p.s. when she arrived with me in February, my Rosie was also called 'Sugar' !!

[Chablis]

One of my horses is like this (I rescued him) and he is a BIG time introvert...

He very quickly learnt to shut himself down to avoid scary things ie being hit by previous owner...

What actually made me aware of this (I just thought he was quite) was that he had been in a float loading accident and now he's healed, an instructor was helping me with float (trailor) loading and my horse would get in half way and just shut himself down.

Basically he went in as far as he was comfortable then he would tune out (be introverted) when it was too scary (ie going in further) THEN he would suddenly wake up, panic about being in the float and reverse out at the speed of light but somehow locking his legs so that he always slipped.

We actually kept rubbing his hind legs when he was in there to keep him from becoming introverted (and then panicking) so that if he did come out, he would do so calmly and guess what, he stopped slipping as he thought about where he was putting his feet. He also became more confident about going in the float.

I now have to be very creative and a strong leader to keep him from becoming/returning to being introverted. I'm slowly getting there but I still make mistakes as I'm only learning.

My point is, I won't get on this horse (yet) while he's like this on the ground as what if he tunes out, while I'm riding, sees something scary and then suddenly wakes up again and PANICS and ride results in disaster (extrovert)?

I HAVE to push this horses buttons on the ground and get him confident with things that would normally scare him for both of our sakes.

I believe he is naturally an extrovert but through his painful past/learned behaviour, he became introverted and when I get my communication happening, he becomes an extrovert (although not bucking etc) again and is confident and so playful.

[claire hodgson]

this caught my interest.

Think about how some people deal with having a bad time - bottle it up, simmering anger underneath and everything calm on the surface. Help is then needed from e.g. a therapist of some description, or just counselling, to get the issues out there and release the anger.

surely the same with horses; it makes sense. Without wishing to overhumanise a horse, the issues are not that difference and what you say about Sugar is that type of thing.

And you said, she's joinging up quicker and coming to you in the field instead of making you go to her.

I'd stick with it, you'll get there.

I have had my horse a year this coming sunday, and am only now able to think that I can start to ride her out. I was losing the will to live at one point, but now just about there (first hack out this weekend, weather permitting). Didn't do parelli etc (don't know enough about it) but long slow haul of gentle work and new bridle.

[cvb]

I have ridden at, and watched, Mark Rashid clinics. Often he will get the rider and horse doing a simple (but significant) exercise and he will comment to the audience and to the rider "S/He just can't believe you are asking them that !!"

Yet the exercises are not about being dominant - they are simple things like asking the horse to respond to a cue e.g. to move forward on use of leg cue.

One of Mark's books talks about a form of leadership which differs from the "alpha" idea - he calls it passive leadership.

There is active discussion about whether this role really exists or not - in my view it DOES (I have an example at home in my veteran who is the passive leader, and my mare who keeps trying to do the alpha thing :rolleyes: It is clearly different).

I like Mark's approach - its calm, consistent, insistent, and he comments how he sees his clinics like a martial arts "dojo" - they should be a safe place to learn. One rider had a target to canter - but the horse was not ready for it so Mark did not push it. This is a tough call as a clinician as you are under pressure to deliver the goods. As you may tell, I have a LOT of respect for this guy !

To bring it back home a little, and relate back to Claire's comment about simmering people - say you have a person with similar emotions as you see in your horse. How would you work with them ? Confront them, make them face up to it ? That IS one approach. I happen to have a partner with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and I can assure you that in my experience, this "direct" approach is not always the best one. Sometimes quiet discussion has a much better and longer term effect. As the other side of the equation, this is not always easy as I have emotions too ! I have to set them aside (as I would with a horse ;) ) and work on what the issue is, not how I feel !

For me this equates to the work Mark does - ask for a simple exercise done well, and reward it. if you can't do the simple exercise (e.g. halt-walk-halt) how can you do anything more ?

(I have spent a LOT of time doing halt-walk-halt since last Feb ! ;) )

[Unbridled]

Yesterday, I went to see Sugar and it went great. When I was walking down the long gravel road to her field she was standing with the one horse she has bonded with and when she saw me she left her companion and trotted up to the gate--she got there several minutes before I did, but she stood there and waited and actually look happy to see me! I took her up to the arena and played some Parelli games--friendly, porcupine, driving, and yoyo--and she did everything perfectly. Then I did join up. She went away from me fine, trotted and cantered without being at all upset--lots of licking and chewing behavior. When I asked her back in she came almost immediately. It took only ten minutes which was the shortest time ever! And she seemed so "in tune" with me, too, and much more affectionate. I was so pleased!

I was going to work with her again today, but she threw a shoe and the farrier can't see her until Monday, so I was hesitant about working her. But I brought her into the barn and fed and groomed her. She actually seemed a little jealous because I had a lesson on one of the school horses and she kept knickering at me while I groomed and tacked up the other horse. When I finished the lesson and was petting her while she stood in her stall she started licking my hand like a dog. She's never done this before and I don't know what it means, but it seemed quite friendly so I let her do it. There was nothing on my hand, but she licked and licked for several minutes. And her eye was so much softer!

My instructor warned me not to try to ride her yet, but I'm very pleased anyway. I see a HUGE difference in her after only 10 days of this and I think if we stay consistant we can overcome her problems. :D :D :D

Thanks everyone for your advice! I really appreciate and might ask a few more questions as we go along with the NH lessons. :)

[chev]

Echo cvb about the direct approach not always being the best one.

I'm not sure if horses really bottle feelings up - they work very differently to people in that respect. But I do know that they can have serious issues that may not be addressed (or even really seen) during everyday interaction and that suddenly bubble over and result in a massive confrontation when something you do happens to trigger a response.

My little gelding was similar in some ways. My kids could handle him, groom him, catch and lead him, and even ride him, and he'd just plod along like every mother's dream. And then something (and for a long time it was never clear exactly what) would trigger incredible aggressive reactions and he was, when he was in that mood, the last pony on earth you'd want kids near. He's very dominant, but also very insecure. When I challenge his behaviour, it actually makes him worse - he lashes out. But working slowly and sympathetically has worked wonders with him; I did challeneg him, but very gently. I found setting him up to succeed in what was being asked was much more productive than making him face situations that frightened him directly.

One of the things that produced the most extreme reactions with my lad was join-up. It not only challenged his dominance, but also his insecurities head-on. It's actually a very big deal with horses with these kind of issues - they roll along nicely as long as they have a degree of control, without needing to trust people particularly or even see them as in charge. Once you send them away in join-up, you are not just making them incredibly vulnerable but also forcing them into putting you in charge. When they find that so difficult to do anyway it can result in very extreme (and apparently out of character) reactions.

I'm reluctant to use join-up in horses that are badly emotionally damaged. I've had three horses for whom join-up was just too much too soon. It does get the required results in the end, but I do think it can overface very vulnerable horses. Kelly Marks doesn't recommend join-up for every horse; she says it isn't suitable for all horses in all situations.

Hope that helped explain at least some of the behaviour you've seen.

And it's great to hear that she's making progress too! :)

[TNT]

Sounds like things are going much better for you two. The only thing I can think of to add is to try and spend some nontraining time with her every week. By this I mean yes you can spend what I call Pretty Pony time when I just brush on my girl and comb her mane but also just go and read a book with her while she munches on some hay or grazes. You can actually learn a lot about your horse when you not doing anything to them . Good Luck with it all.

[Naturally]

Good on you AppyLuv, sounds like things are on the improve.

I would be cautious of overdoing the "join up" thing as Chev has suggested, it might not always be the right thing, so just keep an open mind incase you need to adjust what you are doing. Your horse will vary from day to day.

Good luck

[Cheko]

]I dont think horses have the mental capacity to 'bottle feelings up' BUT they do have a very long and vivid memory of what's happened to them in the past. I'm glad your horse is beginning to accept what you do now. Me (and Falcon) send you good wishes