Why are things done a certain way?

[notpoodle]

just wondering :)

why is it so important to have your hands upright when riding? and why should we turn our toes in? theyre things instrictors keep telling you to do, but t'd ne interesting to see WHY we're doing it :)

julia
x

[Mehitabel]

hands - because with knuckles on top, it's easy to pull hard and get stiff in the wrist and elbow. with thumbs on top, it's much harder to resist and haul.

toes in goes with whole legs in - so that there's a greter surface ara of your thigh on the horse, which keeps you secure, and also so that your heels aren't poking in at every stride. it's more effective if you can use the heel as and when you need to, not by default.

[Pudding]

Dunno really LOL.........I don't have lessons anymore, I just hack around the area sitting how I want to sit and have never felt more comfortable, balanced and at ease...........but, I'm older and don't give a monkey what people think I look like ;)

[Pudding]

PS........I should add that I do sit naturally correct (sort of) anyway and don't look like a total loony LOL

[notpoodle]

@ mehitabel: yeah that makes sense :)

julia

x

[Cheeky]

looks like it was explaind very well :) hehe well done :)

Also keeping your toes in, as I have found by passing jump stands, has less chance of getting caught, pulled off, jodpurs ripped (I can prove that lol!) etc. Also having the correct seating and posture will give a MUCH clearer indication to the horse when you ask.

Example: When I ride down the long side with the fence and letters (the other long sides has jumps then barrels with the dressage letters - will get piccies laters- the letters stick out. If I dont have my hands and legs/feet correctly, I wouldnt be able to "move" Cheeks shoulders over to avoid further cuttings of the jods etc - just lets the horse know that every command is the same, not various commands :)

[Mehitabel]

yep, the classical position isn't just to look pretty, it's the most effective, and the one that will least hinder the horse and let it do its stuff under you with you getting inthe way as little as posible.

all the stuff your instructors say should have a reason. if you don;t know why things are being asked, then ask! if your instructor doesn't know, then change instructor - you can't teach without knowing why you are asking the person to do something.

[Naturally]

LOL, this makes me laugh.

You also mount from the left so you don't stab yourself in the thigh with your bayonet.. ;) ..........somethings, including being stiff and gripping , should not necessarily still be done. I'd be asking questions too.

[LindaAd]

Yes, but most horses are still used to being handled and mounted from the left, so it makes sense, even in the absence of bayonets .....

And the bayonet wasn't invented until the mid-seventeeth century, and I'd guess that handling horses from the left goes back further than that. Probably more to do with most people being right-handed.

Linda

[Naturally]

I doubt it LindaAD, but who knows eh!

Handling the horse equally on each side is far better for the horse, both physically and emotionally. I've worked with heaps of horses that have always only been handled on one side. It doesn't take them long to make the transition, and their backs are infinately better for it, as is the humans.

Also, if we can't be athletic enough to get up on both sides, what gives us the right to expect our horses to be athletic enough to be equal on both sides?

[Sezza]

I agree with Naturally. Not everything has a reason, people have just been taught certain ways of doing things because thats how they have always been done.

A few years ago I used to think those traditional 'how to ride' books had all the answers and accepted what they said to be true. Now though, after going through certain experiences with owning horses, I know there is no set formula like the books (and most riding schools/instructors) suggest for dealing with horses. I have learnt to question the 'norm' because the 'norm' or traditional way doesnt always work with all horses (and doesnt always suit all riders hehe).

A good rider and a good horseman questions everything and doesn't always believe the answers they receive!

[Mehitabel]

things like hands and heels though, are in a different league from mounting from the left etc. and even though the reason isn't applicable now, there still is a reason, it wasn't just completely arbitrary.

personally, i don't know anyone who doesn't handle their horses from both sides, including those in the military (i did my exams at an army camp riding school) and in the queen's service as an instructor.

[Naturally]

Without wanting to rip what you do with your horses to shreds, I'm just very encouraging of anyone who is aksing questions of "why", to really look further into it. Answers like it's easy to pull hard and get stiff in the wrist and elbow really then beg the question.... Well WHY do I need to PULL hard and get STIFF in the wrist. There are also plenty of reasosn Why Not to do a lot of things. ;)

[notpoodle]

i think that was meant in the sense that the risk of accidental yanking is greater of you turn your hands in, i am sure mehitabel did not mean that we should all 'pull hard' :)

julia
x

[Cheko]

Interesting about mounting from the left. I'm going to try and get Falcon used to mounting from the right as well. That's if my bayonet doesn't get in the way!!!!LOL.

[notpoodle]

i can mount from either side, but then i usually use the mounting block, anyway - helps!! :D

[Dizzy]

Naturally, with my own horses I never feel the need to pull and hopefully I'm not stiff through the wrist.

But this Summer for the first time in my riding life I paid to hack out whilst on holiday. The horse I rode was quite obviously used to ripping the riens from its normally inexperienced riders hands. As soon as I was on board, took up the riens at a contact and relaxed my legs around him, he dropped his head and pulled, I closed my hand and applied my legs and he overbent and pawed, I did the same again but verbally rollicked him and he stood nicely.

Thoughout our hour long ride, now and again he relaxed and listened to me. but it was spattered with him suddenly leaning on the bit, and attempting to rip the riens from my hands. I am quite a strong rider, and was able to close my hands, remain in balance and send him forward - but there was once or twice I did have to lean backwards using my bodyweight to counteract the strength that he pullled forward with as at the time he was totally on the forehand.

I totally agree with you that folk should ask 'WHY' but to ask why, they must realise that they are having a problem, and thier instructor must be approachable!

Nit picking does not make someone approachable - if you love horses and want to be helpful you will offer constructive advise to those that ask for it, not loaded cryptic replies - surely its best to offer advice, not insinuate someone else's advise is wrong without giving a reason.

[Naturally]

Hi Dizzy, I don't really think that I'm nit picking. Giving NH advice to tradition riders often ends up in arguments, so I generally don't bother. This rider is asking why, and I'm just encouraging that. I had not intented to offend anyone.

I don't agree that you have to be having a problem to be asking "why", and I don't think that the original poster was necessarily having a problem either.

There are many many things that are done with horses that make no sense when you understand the psychology of the horse. I'm not about to post them here, and if people are interested then they will find out for themselves, but sometimes people don't know that another door is open to them either. That's all. :)

[Naturally]

Actually Dizzy, our terminology may be a little different, but that hack on holiday you referred to, was that like a hired horse at a trail ride centre?

I had a similar experience last April when I was in Las Vegas (I'm an aussie), This horse was yanking and carrying on, and so I let him pull and then I would, with 4 phases correct him. Same outcome, it only took a little while until he got the message that it was better to be polite. The guy taking the trail ride thought I was nuts and insisted that Pat Parelli should teach me to "ride proper". Trouble was, this particular guy had already belted the daylights out of his horse who was rearing up because it wouldn't ride past a horse trailer at the oustet of the ride. I ended up telling him that I would let HIM teach me to ride if he allowed me to teach him how to get his horse through scarey spaces. No suprises that he didn't take me up.

I've written that in a hurry, hope it makes sense.

[Shiny McShine]

Why is it so important to have your hands upright when riding?

It depends on what riding you are doing. For most of your everyday riding hacking out and pleasure riding I would not imagine it was overly important, and in some stock and western riding it may actually be opposite to what is most useful.

What it is important for is for any riding where you need a contact between your hands and the horses mouth. Why? Because if you turn your hands, you turn the rein also, and affect the way the horse feels the bit, and your arms are more tense and less able to absorb the contact right through to your shoulder when your hands are turned over. Try holding your hands out as if you are riding with your hands turned down, then turn them up again. You should feel the tendons over the top of your forearms relax, as well as some relaxing of your elbows and upper arm muscles.

and why should we turn our toes in?

Again it depends on what your doing, for most pleasure riding, stock work and western it isn't going to make a great deal of difference. It is of main importance for dressage because it helps to give you the optimum position.
Why? If your toes are turned out while your heels are pressed down, the muscle in your calf flexes and presses against the horse constantly, it also tenses your whole leg, meaning you won't be able to absorb the movement as well, and as was already said, it takes your upper leg off the saddle slighty.

Often traditional schools teach us to do these things at the basic level even when we may not really need them, ie. hands up even though our 12hh school pony doesn't respond to any contact. They teach us in the knowledge that we are probably going to go on to ride one of the Olympic disciplines.

Natural teachers on the other hand, tend to encourage a more relaxed position to begin with because they teach in the knowledge that we would like to be able to handle any horse and any situation, and that for that we may require a more flexible approach.

[notpoodle]

i dont have a problem as such, i was just interested to see why we're doing it and how it came about :)

julia
x

[claire hodgson]

also if your thumbs are on top and the reins through the fingers properly, you can give much more subtle indications just by squeezing gently with the fingers, or moving them; its the sort of thing that once you've felt it work, you know what is meant, but until you feel it, it's just 'what you've been taught'.

Like the first time I FELT a horse come through from behind into the contact

[LindaAd]

I doubt it LindaAD, but who knows eh!

Also, if we can't be athletic enough to get up on both sides, what gives us the right to expect our horses to be athletic enough to be equal on both sides?

What gives you the right to say who should and should not be riding?

People who can't show normal courtesy shouldn't have the right to post messages.

Linda

[claire hodgson]

well that post looked polite enough to me!

[LindaAd]

I doubt it LindaAD, but who knows eh!


What do you doubt, Naturally? That handling horses from the left is much, much older than the invention of bayonets or swords?

Have a look at this:

he ancient Greek general Xenophon (c.430-c.355 B.C.), in his treatise The Art of Horsemanship, gives a step-by-step description--literally--of mounting a horse. Since the stirrup hadn't been invented yet (and wouldn't be until around 400 A.D.), this involved grasping the horse's mane in two places--up by the ears with the left hand and at the base of the neck with the right. The rider would then jump up while swinging his right leg over the horse's back (horses tended to be shorter in ancient times). Alternatively, if he was carrying a spear, the rider could use it to vault onto his charger. Xenophon advocates learning to mount from the right or "off" side in case the exigencies of war required it. It's plain from his detailed description that the left or "near" side of the horse was the correct side for mounting in Xenophon's time, when horses were primarily used for war.

Even when the stirrup came into use, the sheathed sword would still be in the way in mounting from the right, and would be likely to jab the horse in the side or rump just as the rider was swinging his leg over its back. The startled horse would then be strongly inclined to bolt, leaving the rider (briefly) in midair.

So why do we still mount from the left? After all, except for the occasional ceremony, the cavalry has ridden off into the sunset. To answer the question, we need to delve into equine physiology and psychology.

Let's start with a fundamental fact, essential to understanding equines: The horse isn't a predator--it's prey. Even after millennia of domestication, the horse is physically and mentally hardwired to detect and elude attackers. Its eyes are set on the sides of its head, giving it almost 360 degrees of vision. It sees two monocular fields at once, one through each eye. The binocular vision we human predators take for granted, the horse has in only a small area directly ahead of it. So what it "knows" on one side, it doesn't "know" on the other, until it's been shown. The horse's instincts dispose it to be suspicious of anything new in its environment. The thing behind that rock that wasn't there yesterday could be a lion!

What does this have to do with mounting from the left? It means that a horse who's been taught to accept being mounted only from one side may be perfectly docile when the rider clambers aboard on that side, yet spook and refuse to stand still if approached from the unfamiliar direction. That's why authorities on horse training (including our old friend Xenophon) recommend teaching horses to be mounted from the off side, so that they'll stand still for it if circumstances demand that the rider get on from that side

But why prefer the left side when swords are no longer a problem? Partly it's the inertia of tradition--horses and humans are both creatures of habit. But it's also common sense to have a standard approach. If you didn't know which side a particular horse had learned to be mounted from, you could get a nasty surprise if you tried to get on from the "wrong" side.


Linda

[Esther.D]

Yes, but most horses are still used to being handled and mounted from the left, so it makes sense, even in the absence of bayonets .....

And the bayonet wasn't invented until the mid-seventeeth century, and I'd guess that handling horses from the left goes back further than that. Probably more to do with most people being right-handed.

Linda

It was the side used when carrying a sword before the bayonet was invented...so yep goes back even fuirther as LindaAd says!

Just realised I repeated LindaAd but in far less detail - very comprehensive answer Linda :)

"Also, if we can't be athletic enough to get up on both sides, what gives us the right to expect our horses to be athletic enough to be equal on both sides?"

I would like to be able to...but I have a weak hip and physically CANNOT mount from the right. I suspect in an emergency I could climb/scramble onto my 13.2hh from the right but certainly cannot mount from that side correctly and it hurts! So unfortunately I have to be hypocritical and expect him to be more athletic than me..

[Naturally]

Thanks Linda, you have given perfect examples of what I am talking about. If you want calm co-operative horses you should be desensitising them to both sides.

Thankfully we have learned since the days of xenophon and in puting the pyschology to use, we now know how to overcome all of those problesm.

And I didn't say who should and shouldn't be riding. I am just opening up for suggestions from the horses perspective. You obviously have a problem with me, it's a shame for that to get in the way of a potentially good topic.

Shiny, I've only read it briefly as I'm out of time, but I like your explanations. Thanks.

[LindaAd]

.

And I didn't say who should and shouldn't be riding. I am just opening up for suggestions from the horses perspective. You obviously have a problem with me, it's a shame for that to get in the way of a potentially good topic.

Shiny, I've only read it briefly as I'm out of time, but I like your explanations. Thanks.


No personal problem, Naturally. But I have a very big problem with people who tell me what I have a "right" to expect from my horse ... and, by implication who has a "right" to be riding ....

There are plenty of people on here with physical limitations, but they are often better and more sensitive riders than the super-athletes who can vault on and off and turn cartwheels under the horse's belly.

This forum has always been a tolerant and supportive place, and there's never been much space for the arrogant and the opinionated.

Linda

[Naturally]

Linda I'm really confused as to why you are so negative towards me. I am not being opinionated or arrogant, I am merely offering more reasons to think outside the square and not just accept things because that is they way they have been done. Please re-read my posts with an open mind.

Anyway, for those that mentioned it, as for the mounting thing if you have a disability or physical limitation, then obviously you get on what ever way you best can. Same as if it were the other way around and if a physical limitation prohibits you from mounting from the left, well, yes isn't it just as well they can infact be trained to mount from the right as well. ;) My horse now sidles up to the fence or log or mounting block, on either side, depending on which way I ask him. He is still "better" on the left, but I haven't had him long and we work on it regularly.

So, notpoodle or anyone else, all I have left to say is that there are lots of things that can be done many ways and some things that are done, just because it's always been that way, really should be questioned. :)

[Mehitabel]

Without wanting to rip what you do with your horses to shreds, I'm just very encouraging of anyone who is aksing questions of "why", to really look further into it. Answers like really then beg the question.... Well WHY do I need to PULL hard and get STIFF in the wrist. There are also plenty of reasosn Why Not to do a lot of things. ;)

i was saying that if you have your hands with knuckles on top you can pull hard and get stiff without realising it... :rolleyes:

[Naturally]

i was saying that if you have your hands with knuckles on top you can pull hard and get stiff without realising it... :rolleyes:

Phew ! Thanks for the clarification. ;)

[LindaAd]

Linda I'm really confused as to why you are so negative towards me. I am not being opinionated or arrogant, I am merely offering more reasons to think outside the square and not just accept things because that is they way they have been done. Please re-read my posts with an open mind.


Ok, Naturally, I'll try and explain a different way. It's not personal, as I said - you were very helpful when I was having problems with Ginny.

But, suppose someone comes on the forum and says "I've discovered the secret of horsemanship. It's wonderful, and last week a horse bowed down to me three times and rolled on its back" Then people would say Wow! That's wonderful! Tell us more.

But suppose, instead, they say "I've discovered the secret of horsemanship.
It's wonderful, and if you don't know it you're riding all wrong, and of course the classical masters didn't know it because it hadn't been invented yet, and anyone who who rides differently doesn't deserve a horse".

The reaction would be rather different, wouldn't it. Now, obviously both these are caricatures, just to show the sort of thing I'm talking about. No one actually said those things. But that's how some messages come across.

It's noticeable that the most knowledgeable people on here, and there are quite a few, tend to be rather diffident about giving advice. They say things like "Have you tried ...?" and "Do you think maybe ...?" and "With my horses I find it helps to ...."

Is that clear now?

Linda

[Naturally]

OK Linda, gotcha now, :o except the thing is, she was just asking WHY we do things. I don't know enough about classical positions to comment strongly on it and to tell her WHY, only that there are some things, like hollow backs and stiff limbs that really should not be done, yet you see everywhere.

Like I said earlier, I like Shiny's response, I thought it made sense. I didn't see any reason for me to delve into that, I was just opening a few minds that often the gripping and tensing is what is wrong with peoples horses when they ride, although Mehitabel has pointed out that was not her intention in her reply.

Cheers

[Mehitabel]

hands - because with knuckles on top, it's easy to pull hard and get stiff in the wrist and elbow. with thumbs on top, it's much harder to resist and haul.
is the pasted quote of my initial reply.

given we know that thumbs on top is the correct way to have your hands, surely it's reasonably obvious what i meant, if you read the reply carefully?

please try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're not advocating bad riding, unless you've really read the answers carefully and absolutely can't see any other interpretation.

[Dizzy]

Naturally, we're all singing from the same song sheet here. The original poster was asking for reasons why,

LOL, this makes me laugh.

You also mount from the left so you don't stab yourself in the thigh with your bayonet.. ..........somethings, including being stiff and gripping , should not necessarily still be done. I'd be asking questions too.

not to be ridiculed.

I take it by your posting name 'Naturally' that you follow the likes of P Parelli, M Roberts etc.

I have absolutely no problem with that - though I don't school in that way I have friends that do, and we've helped each other at times. But, though I know you are a horse lover, and probably a nice person, your responses are patronising and arrogant.

Knowledge is something that is learnt - those that have it should share, not ridicule. And if you're not prepared to share, then you should button it and say nothing.

If I've offended you, feel free to PM me.

[Naturally]

Thanks for the feedback dizzy.

Firstly, I did not mean to offend. Yes I did misunderstand the original post, and it's curious that others did too because nobody thought to realise it /mention it (including yourself) until much later into the discussion, but anyway, has now been addresssed a few days ago so I feel that should be settled.

But I was not being rude and arrogant. It does make me laugh. I do think it's quite funny/weird/strange/sad that often the question of "why not" is not considered. I can post a 1000 why nots BTW, but most of them will get into arguments, so I don't bother. I thought I would avoid that by just opening the minds a little to say that there are many reasons why we as horse owners should look outside the box, but that didn't work either, so forget it.

[Mossy]

Because, in the light of knowledge at the time, they work, and achieve what the great and good of the moment want to, and us lesser mortals follow. However knowledge moves on and, in this evidence based world, current opinion changes. I was taught to ride by gripping with my knees. I cannot remember how the pony of the time went. I "thought like a child and spoke like a child". Now I am somewhat older, I can take a broader view and look at current thinking and not grip with my knees. If I forget and grip up it does affect the horse. That theory works, so I follow it.
Other things, eg flash nosebands, don't work for me, others are so potentially dangerous that imho they should not be in anybody's book!

[Mossy]

But I was not being rude and arrogant. It does make me laugh. I do think it's quite funny/weird/strange/sad that often the question of "why not" is not considered. I can post a 1000 why nots BTW, but most of them will get into arguments, so I don't bother. I thought I would avoid that by just opening the minds a little to say that there are many reasons why we as horse owners should look outside the box, but that didn't work either, so forget it.

I am picking my words carefully here and do not want to cause controversy or offence, so apologise in advance if I do. Very few folks want to be rude or arrogant but, esp on the net, it is all a matter of interpretation. If despite best intentions, more that two or three people commented negatively on the style of a selection of my posts, I would maybe wonder if they had a point. Just an early morning muse .....

[SO1]

I sometimes wonder why we do things a certain way too but I think as long as people do things in a manner that is safe and the horse seems happy then I don't really suppose it matters how you do things :)

The only problem I can see with doing things in an individual style is that most horses in the UK are trained the BHS way and to respond to certain aids and if you do not know them it may be difficult to communicate with them. This has happened to me a few times, I am a very gentle rider and I have slowly trained Pies to go on to the bit without me having to take a stong contact or use much leg however recently I have ridden a couple of horses which have been schooled for classical dressage and I really struggled to get them to do anything until I used to a stronger contact and more BHS style aids.

One thing I have wondered is why we lead horses with the reins over their head as if the horse escaped from you I think it might be more likely to get its legs caught up in the reins. There is probably a perfectly good reason for this but but if you don't know why then sometimes they can seem mystifying :cool:

[Naturally]

Hello So1, you are spot on with the reins issue. I don't ride with regular reins, so I'm not sure if they are the same length, but we double our reins (PNH Bridle) over the horses head and tie our lead line through it, then lead by the lead line ( a lead line is attached to all our bridles for regular work, removed once in the ring or whereever if you are competing I think). We also have slobber straps, which are leather straps that act as a hinge between the rein and horses mouth which reduces any impact on the mouth.

Most horses here are trained traditionally too, it's not different, it's just a matter of taking the time with each horse. As you said you managed to get a soft feel with your horse, now riding another horse who has not been handled as gently, therefore needs stronger aids. You can also teach that horse that he doesn't need to pull against the bit or reins, just exactly as you have taught your other horse. Some horses are harder and pull harder, purely because that is the way they have been trained, to lean into pressure, rather than away from it. The way you get that soft feel is by releasing at the slightest feel from the horse. :)
Cheers