Equine Ethology Conference at Solihull [Archive]

Demson

3rd Oct 2005, 07:51 AM

When Ferdi first came into the arena I was intigued to see what he was going to do as I knew he was a professional dressage trainer having trained the Olympic team. What kind of horsemanship was he going to use?

As a dressage trainer he can't be faulted however once he started teaching Charlotte (who was riding) I noticed a lot of people walked out...why??

Well he wanted Charlotte to keep the reins short maintaining a contact and hold the horse together while pushing the horse forward from behind. The horse (to me) looked stiff and not too happy about this by displaying his disagreement through wafting his tail and opening his mouth and being slightly unsettled in his mouth.

Ferdi then got charlotte to stop and walked over then proceeded totel the audience that he was tightening the noseband. By this time a lot of people walked out. I came out basically cause I was desperate for the toilet and decided to get something to eat and drink before the crowds came out.

During the interval loads of people came to me to chat and said how they did not enjoy Ferdi Eilberg and that he contradicted everything Pat and Linda Parelli had spent the last 4 hours telling us. I missed the second horse regretably

On the Sunday I made sure I watched all of the Ferdi Eilberg performance and it was brilliant. He had his son and daughter int he arena riding their horses. he spent more time with his daughter riding her dressge horse and she rode on a very light contact and this horse was moving beautiful. Ferdi also insisted on praising the horse when it done well and when the horse did as he wished he immediately went on to something else so as not to get the horse over faced with the movement. He had a very positive but gentle approach and never blamed the horse for anything when something didn't go quite right.

Overall I thought he was fantastic and showed us another level of horsemanship.

Naturally

3rd Oct 2005, 08:06 AM

Well that's interesting. Any ideas on how Charlotte was feeling? i.e. were her emotions showing at all???

donkeywoman

3rd Oct 2005, 08:53 AM

Naturally

3rd Oct 2005, 09:34 AM

I'm not sure why you think papers would have to be presented, but Equine Ethology is the name given to Natural Horsemanship in Europe and adopted by the BEF to raise the standard of horsemanship in the UK. The conference used to be the Savvy Conference, but has been renamed since Parelli UK is now known as the Equine Ethology Centre. Given that it's basis is equine behaviour I think that qualifies it to use the word.

Also the Parelli's have now got a university degree for PNH students in the US, so I suppose that qualifies them as academics.

The following link will clarify it a little for you, or do a google search.

http://www.equinetourism.co.uk/editorial/equineethology/equineethology.htm

Yann

3rd Oct 2005, 09:37 AM

It doesn't have anything to do with equine ethology as a scientific discipline at all. Equine ethology is the new brand name for Parelli UK, presumably derived from the french version, and to make it more palatable for the hoped for incorporation into the BHS training syllabus.

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 06:45 PM

What was the subject of the major research papers presented at this conference of equine ethology? With the presence of Ferdi Eilberg and the Parellis, it doesn't sound much like an ethology conference to me. Which academics were present?

It is not necessary to have academics (The majority of whom have limited practical experience of high level performance horse training) in order to discuss equine ethology. Despite the fact that some people are not happy with the way things are going, the subject has been broadened out to include horse training methods that work with the horses nature rather than against it.

As it happens Mr Parelli did make a short presentation about the extended conference that he was asked to attend at Samur during which all the 'Academics' (obviously those present) agreed that his system of horse training was the most appropriate way of working 'with' the horses innate characteristics in order to form a functional relationship with Human Beings. This resulted in the Parelli system being adopted by the French Federation, and now the British establishment is following suit.

Demson...

There was some controversey re Ferdi, but there are going to be a lot of positive spin offs from his attendance so don't fret about it!!

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 07:01 PM

OOps...double post...server is a bit iffy ATM!

kimdouglas

3rd Oct 2005, 07:28 PM

Hi all,

Overall I found the conference informative, entertaining and inspiring as was last year. The Parelli's, as always, gave us yet more to think about and practice with our horses. And of course it was lovely to see Swerve and Snoopy again!! As far as Ferdi goes I think that there was a lot of people there that found it hard to watch a "traditionalist" trainer. The feedback from those that did walk out was one of annoyance and anger that this was not what they signed up for. Some were under the impression that Ferdi was a Parelli follower and that they were going to watch the "end" product (so to speak) something like the O'Connors I guess. For me...I was disapointed that he was the grand finale on the Saturday night demo...it should have been Silke!!

Kim x

Naturally

3rd Oct 2005, 07:40 PM

Hi Kim,
I had presumed that Ferdi was doing PNH "based" training, as the EE criteria is what is currently being launced etc. etc. so I would have been confused, not to mention majorly disappointed also.

Did anyone get a sense of major change with the change to EE? I guess I'm asking if it became less Parelli and more traditional, or was this the only incident?

kimdouglas

3rd Oct 2005, 08:07 PM

Naturally...yes it was confusing! I think poor Dave Stuart is going to be inundated with e-mails today from very disgruntled members.

What I got from the weekend was Parelli has been lost in the EE takeover. Im hoping that this is only temporary and that it will still be given the same attention that it deserves. There seems to be a huge divide in the camp at the moment and there are a lot of confused people out there wondering what is going on!! Dave gave his reassurances that Parelli is very much alive and kicking ... I hope so!!

One thing that I found really strange...at the end of Linda's lesson with her student on the Sunday...Pat came out to her and they both recieved a standing ovation...it was I suppose a good-bye of sorts. When the crowd died down a bit...Linda said her thanks to us and then... thanked Equine Ethology for inviting them there?????

I really really hope that Parelli is not going to become lost in all this!!

Kim x

Yann

3rd Oct 2005, 08:12 PM

It is not necessary to have academics (most of whom know diddly squat about horse training) in order to discuss equine ethology. Despite the fact that the 'Academics' are getting hot under the collar about it, the subject has been broadened out to include horse training methods that work with the horses nature rather than against it.

Being that equine ethology is the recognised scientific study of horse behaviour in their natural environment, and scientific study generally involves academics, you can't exactly blame them for getting hot under the collar. It would be no different to rebranding PNH as 'natural history' or 'forensic anthropology'. Who broadened the subject?

I trust the academics who decided that PNH was the best way for horses to form a functional relationship with humans weren't the same ones who know diddly squat about horse training ;) :D

Crystal Fire

3rd Oct 2005, 08:16 PM

I remember a similar reaction the first time David and Karen O'Connor appeared. His first demo was uncontroversial but uninspiring as he did groundwork that would hardly have passed a level 1. But the next day his ridden demo had people walking out in disgust, including the entire party from a well known equine rescue organisation. The way he was riding contradicted Pat's earlier presentation, where he'd explained how horses see jumps and why they need to be allowed to turn their heads sideways a little. Pat had also explained the importance of release, but David just rode with a tight contact and gave no release for reward. The horse was foaming at the mouth too. Charlotte had ridden him the day before much better.
I suppose it would be naive to think that people like Ferdi and the O'Connors, who are at the top of their profession, would chuck it all out and try to re-create their success using another method?
I've been reading the proposals for the new BHS syllabus and it appears that possibly there will be room for "natural" trainers other than those going down the Equine Ethology/Parelli route. Western trainers too. We'll see, I'm going to try to find out more.
I don't think there is anything suss about Pat and Linda being invited by Equine Ethology to attend the conference. It is always the case that they are invited by the UK Parelli agency, who book them and pay them to come over, so it's no change, just something that hasn't been mentioned before.

Crystal Fire

3rd Oct 2005, 08:19 PM

"all the 'Academics' agreed that his system of horse training was the most appropriate way of working 'with' the horses innate characteristics in order to form a functional relationship with Human Beings"
Did they really say that?? They need to get out more :rolleyes:

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 08:23 PM

Don't worry guys...Parelli method and training is alive and kicking.

Ingela Larsson (who any of you at the Conference will have seen with my grey Lusitano in the Savvy team) is very much still a Parelli Instructor. Victoria Crofton has just (today) got back to the UK qualified as a Parelli two star Instructor. Kirsty Capelin-Jones should hopefully be back soon. Lyla Cansfield will, (fingers crossed,but I know she will make it) be back as a two star by Christmas. Aarron Parker and Rachel Morland will be going out to Pagosa imminently for Instructor training, and there are several other UK residents in the pipeline who are not far short of their level 3 who are headed for professional training and a career in Parelli in the UK.

As was pointed out in the final presentation at the Conference, these organisations and their concepts, in the form they are now being presented, are still very new in the UK. Both Parelli and EE are growing VERY fast and a lot of work is going into making them successfull over here. I know that there are a few problems to be ironed out but keep the faith....and watch this space!!

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 08:35 PM

Being that equine ethology is the recognised scientific study of horse behaviour in their natural environment, and scientific study generally involves academics, you can't exactly blame them for getting hot under the collar. It would be no different to rebranding PNH as 'natural history' or 'forensic anthropology'. Who broadened the subject?

The definitions of many things change and adapt with time and usage to allow them to fit into the modern world. If you haven't changed with the times you are still using the words 'queer' and 'gay' to mean 'odd' and 'delightful'. You may not appreciate 'progress' but a lot of other people do.

I trust the academics who decided that PNH was the best way for horses to form a functional relationship with humans weren't the same ones who know diddly squat about horse training

How many Academics do you know who can train Grand Prix dressage horses? I think that you will find the professionals at Samur and the invited participants of the French Federation Conference on the subject who made this descision are just a tad more qualified to judge than either you or I....unless you know better of course?

clicker

3rd Oct 2005, 08:52 PM

It is not necessary to have academics (most of whom know diddly squat about horse training) in order to discuss equine ethology

Can I just say as an academic and a trained ethologist (I do research into training in relation to applied ethology - aka animal welfare) I take huge offence at this sweeping statement.

I know plenty of academics who know a hell of a lot about training and learning from the neural mechanisms which underpin it, learning threory and so on. Please do not be so dismissive.

As academics we learn to be open to new ideas but to study them and compare to existing theories and practices in an objective manner.

I can tell you for certain that 'all academics' do not think that the use of Parrelli is the way forward. Having recently returned from the largest and most respected international applied ethology conference ( one involving scientists) I can assure you of that.

I'm not dismissing PNH or any other method of NH, I'm simply saying that you cannot make sweeping statements as you have.

I'd also be interested to know about this conference you refer to in France.

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 09:29 PM

Can I just say as an academic and a trained ethologist (I do research into training in relation to applied ethology - aka animal welfare) I take huge offence at this sweeping statement.

That is your prerogative. I am also entitled to my opinion. For every one of 'you' there are 100,000 or more people who aren't academics and they are also entitled to a voice and an opinion. We live in a democracy.

All the supposed equine ethologists who I have heard comment so far seem to believe that applied equine ethology is a travesty and a betrayal of their principles. I commend you for your work in this field if it leads to something that is going to be of practical use rather than laying gathering dust on some university library shelf.

I know plenty of academics who know a hell of a lot about training and learning from the neural mechanisms which underpin it, learning threory and so on. Please do not be so dismissive.

So how many of these people are out in the real world helping people and their horses to get along better with our day to day problems?

I'd also be interested to know about this conference you refer to in France.

I am sure that if you contact the French Federation they would tell you about it.

clicker

3rd Oct 2005, 09:52 PM

I'm not going to get into an argument about this as this is not the right forum (I don't mean forum as in NR!, I mean message boards in general) to go about it - as you say you are entitled to your opinion, and I am mine.
And I don't deny that everyone is entitled to heve their opinion - I am merely presenting an alternative veiwpoint and questioning your comments.

I think you make a lot of statements about 'people' and 'academics' without ever backing it up, which I find revealing. Perhaps you do not like to name names on a public forum - could you pm me some names and affilliation so I can try and understand your argument?

Applied ethology - and those of us who do the work -do all sorts from informing government policy (to some extent :rolleyes: ), to hands on practical help (referral clinics at unis etc). We do stuff because we want to help and make a difference.

I certainly do not want an 'us' and 'them' situation with academics and non-academics - I, and many I work with value and respect the information we receive from those who work more directly with animlas - and this informs and shapes our research.

All the supposed equine ethologists who I have heard comment so far seem to believe that applied equine ethology is a travesty and a betrayal of their principles.

This confused me 'supposed equine ethologists' ? Not sure I undestand what you think!

Anyway I hope you have success with PHN. I guess the point I want to make overall, is please don't present opinion as fact, and please check or back up your opinions.
Thanks

Em 1

3rd Oct 2005, 10:20 PM

but Equine Ethology is the name given to Natural Horsemanship in Europe and adopted by the BEF to raise the standard of horsemanship in the UK

Has the BEF really adopted Equine Ethology as in Natural Horsemanship as a way to 'raise the standard of horsemanship in the UK' or is it that they have adopted the study of Equine Ethology (as in natural horse behaviour). People have been studying Equine Ethology for many decades now. Picking up a familiar (academic) phrase and running with it is marketing not science.

Naturally

3rd Oct 2005, 10:22 PM

So just moving back on topic a little....

I think that if Dave is innundated with enquiries/complaints it will be a good thing, but really they should be sent to the guy pulling the strings (Richard Marriott)

Mr Marriott, who (currently) owns the PNH franchise in the UK (infact Australasia) has dumped Australia and almost left us high and dry, if it wasn't for a dedicated few instructors who remain loyal to PNH students. All we hear about from him now is EE, which has no relevance in Australia whatsoever. We basically don't exist in his eyes.

However, we have not been abandoned by PNH, and no more will the UK, but it will be interesting "viewing" over the next year or so.

So to all dedicated PNH students who are concerned, hang in there, Pat, Linda and the PNH team are still very committed to our horsemanship pursuits, and I have that straight from the horses mouth..so to speak.. ;)

Naturally

3rd Oct 2005, 10:31 PM

Has the BEF really adopted Equine Ethology as in Natural Horsemanship as a way to 'raise the standard of horsemanship in the UK' or is it that they have adopted the study of Equine Ethology (as in natural horse behaviour). People have been studying Equine Ethology for many decades now. Picking up a familiar (academic) phrase and running with it is marketing not science.

That is my understanding from all that I have read and been told. Look it up if you want to know more.

As for the marketing comment, this was first adopted in Europe by the FFE and THEY chose Parelli Method as the method which best supports what they want as the baseline standard of horsemanship. It has been modified in about 8 stages to suit the FFE, so it is not true to Parelli in terms of levels 1-3, however level 8 is basically level 3, it's just broken down into more bitesize chunks.

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 10:39 PM

And I don't deny that everyone is entitled to heve their opinion

You are you said...

I'm simply saying that you cannot make sweeping statements as you have.

I can and I did.

I think you make a lot of statements about 'people' and 'academics' without ever backing it up, which I find revealing

I can go back through posts on half a dozen different websites to where people have described themselves as 'trained equine ethologists' (I don't know if they are or not = supposed) They have posted that equine ethology is just the study of wild horses in their natural environment and any other use of the phrase (ie applied equine ethology...or the recentNH use of it) is an anathema. I have been at internet conferences where similar things have been said.

You have not posted anyone elses names in relation to your arguements so do not try and make out that I am being underhand or untruthfull for not doing so either.

Applied ethology - and those of us who do the work -do all sorts from informing government policy (to some extent ), to hands on practical help (referral clinics at unis etc).

Yes, thats just what I thought.

I certainly do not want an 'us' and 'them' situation with academics and non-academics

I had plenty of experience of that growing up in Oxford University.

Anyway I hope you have success with PHN. I guess the point I want to make overall, is please don't present opinion as fact, and please check or back up your opinions.

Thank you for your good wishes. My opinions are based on experience, albeit at the opposite end of the spectrum form your apparently.

janet hakeney

3rd Oct 2005, 10:53 PM

Naturally....

Mr Marriott, who (currently) owns the PNH franchise in the UK (infact Australasia)

I wonder what will happen when the franchise comes up for renewal?

Naturally

3rd Oct 2005, 10:59 PM

Naturally....

I wonder what will happen when the franchise comes up for renewal?

Me too...

LindaAd

3rd Oct 2005, 11:27 PM

Can I just say as an academic and a trained ethologist (I do research into training in relation to applied ethology - aka animal welfare) I take huge offence at this sweeping statement.
<snip>

I can tell you for certain that 'all academics' do not think that the use of Parrelli is the way forward. Having recently returned from the largest and most respected international applied ethology conference ( one involving scientists) I can assure you of that.

I'm not dismissing PNH or any other method of NH, I'm simply saying that you cannot make sweeping statements as you have.

I'd also be interested to know about this conference you refer to in France.

As far as I know, the term "ethology" means the study of animal behaviour, and has been around in English since the early 1900s - isn't that right, Clicker? And the French have adopted the term "ethology" to mean, roughly, what we mean by Natural Horsemanship.

Now the Parelli folk have adopted the term "Equine Ethology" for their own method, presumably for marketing reasons. At the same time, the FEI have decided to recognize "ethologie" as a branch of horsemanship. But this doesn't Parelli NH, or whatever it's now called, it means natural horsemanship in general, and if you look on the French FEI website you will see that there are several recognised places where they teach it, and only two of these are Parelli, although I'm not up enough in PNH to know what the influences are on the others. But it's certainly an exaggeration to say that the FEI have "adopted Parelli officially".

But people who have been studying horse behaviour in the universities for a long time under the title of equine ethology are understandly a bit put out by this, and to suggest that they're just not moving with the times is quite rude.

Of course "savvy" was just an ordinary word in the language too until it was hijacked, but no-one objected to that, I suppose because it wasn't an academic discipline.

Linda

Chablis

4th Oct 2005, 12:50 AM

Me too...

Me three!

I'm a bit confused still about PNH and EE, I guess I'll understand eventually.

BTW, Linda, nicely written. :)

Does anyone know anymore about the direction PNH is heading in Australia ie if PNH Australia/Asia will be sold by Richard Marriot? Demson or Janet, do you know?

Naturally

4th Oct 2005, 01:52 AM

But it's certainly an exaggeration to say that the FEI have "adopted Parelli officially"

Hi Linda, they are saying "Equine Ethology (Parelli Method)" so I take that to mean that they have adopted in officially.

Does anyone know anymore about the direction PNH is heading in Australia ie if PNH Australia/Asia will be sold by Richard Marriot? Demson or Janet, do you know?

Pretty sure bet Chablis

Crystal Fire

4th Oct 2005, 10:10 AM

I think Richard M is a business man first and foremost and that possibly if he hadn't got involved when he did we might not have had a PNH agency in the UK at all (no comment about Australia!). Things were quite dodgy for a while. If it makes good sense for him to step out and sell up soon then I'm sure he will, but hopefully you'll have someone else to carry it on for you.

LindaAd

4th Oct 2005, 01:50 PM

Hi Linda, they are saying "Equine Ethology (Parelli Method)" so I take that to mean that they have adopted in officially.

Where does it say that, Naturally? I know it says that on some of the recommended books, but not on all of them.

My guess would be that once the French realise that natural horsemanship and Parelli aren't 100% synonous, there will be changes.

I did have a very good link to the French FEI site, which listed the schools where you could study for the Equine Ethology, but I can't find it now - so if anyone knows it, I'd be grateful.

Linda

Naturally

4th Oct 2005, 07:40 PM

My guess would be that once the French realise that natural horsemanship and Parelli aren't 100% synonous, there will be changes.

Linda

Gee I can see where this is going. No thanks, you can battle that **** in your own head. Considering Parelli coined the term NH you are way way off course with that statement.

Oh and should I say, pardon me if that sounds rude Linda ;)

nix

4th Oct 2005, 08:10 PM

... the subject has been broadened out to include horse training methods that work with the horses nature rather than against it.

Hi Jan

I hope you don't mind my asking, and it may well be a topic that's covered later on in the thread, but will the training methods include those of others or is it solely based around Parelli methods? Although I am an EE Teacher (Enlightened Equitation and the term has been used for a number of years), I have absolutely no axe to grind with Parelli ... each to their own and I probably use some of the methods myself as I don't use any ground training format exclusively. It would just be nice to know as if this "equine ethology" thing is to encompass other training methods as well as acadaemia, then shouldn't other valid methods be included?

Hope I'm not "opening up a can of worms" here and I do know it has been discussed heatedly elsewhere, but am genuinely interested to know :).

nix

4th Oct 2005, 08:27 PM

Whoops, this discussion seems rather heated too now that I've read the other posts after I quoted Jan's *blush* (now you see why I've added a blush smiley to the EE forum :D ).

Replying to somebody else's question about the French Federation's "Equitation Ethologique". I was given a link by IVIS to the French site and, to be honest, although they discuss applied equine ethologies as well as academic topics there didn't seem to be any bias to a particular method but horsemanship as a whole. Is Parelli the main method there and will there be other methods included here, as I asked before, I know this is a thread regarding Parelli but it does also include Equine Ethology and there does seem to be a lot of disparity between whether Equine Ethology is what used to be PNH or if it something that encompasses it and other methods?

Again, this is honest interest :).

Francis Burton

4th Oct 2005, 09:16 PM

Does (or will) Equine Ethology involve the study of equine ethology?

If so, this can only be for the good, surely!? However, I would be concerned if any behaviour component taught was a "filtered" version - that is, reflecting only the teacher's interpretations, preconceptions and prejudices. One way to avoid this would be to present/study the full range of original source material. This would ensure a more balanced perspective, though such a detailed treatment has obvious resource implications for courses.

Francis Burton

4th Oct 2005, 09:23 PM

"I trust the academics who decided that PNH was the best way for horses to form a functional relationship with humans weren't the same ones who know diddly squat about horse training"

Who are the academics who were involved in this decision? Does anyone know?

Demson

4th Oct 2005, 09:29 PM

Okay who hijacked my thread first.... :rolleyes: :D

I asked for peoples opinion on Ferdi Eilberg...Not EE itself. :D

Is anyone open to actually answering the original (the first thread) question.

;) :D

janet hakeney

4th Oct 2005, 09:53 PM

Sorry Demson :o

As you may have seen I replied 'in another place' to the original question here

chev

5th Oct 2005, 07:01 AM

I have received complaints about this thread, including one that suggests that Parelli discussions be subject to the same restrictions that discussions on hunting are - because (and I happen to agree with this point) it seems that every time a discussion on Parelli starts things don't just get heated but downright rude.

I am fed up of asking people to keep things civil when it comes to discussing Parelli. I am fed up of the same people posting insulting and rude replies simply because their view is not shared by all who post to these threads.

Unless those people can keep these discussions civil, and accept that not everyone will agree with them (and that the fact that they disagree does not neccessarily make them wrong, nor does it mean they are not changing with the times) then I see no option other than to stop the discussions involving Parelli.

We are trying to run a friendly, open-minded board. Preventing people from talking about Parelli really isn't what we want. But the unfriendliness, intolerance, and downright rudeness that seems to accompany these threads does mean that unless things change, I don't see what option we have.

If anyone would like to reply to the original topic, and keep it nice, please do so.

Wally

5th Oct 2005, 08:06 AM

For my tuppenceworth, I aggree with Chev, Parelli does seem to bring out a certain je ne sais quoi in folk.

I have read about it and have come to the conclusion that there is nothing new in it.

I hate the way it is marketed so aggressively. I personally do not worship at any one temple, I read, try, use or discard any number of trainers' ideas.

You can use what methods you like, but I have come to the conclusion that none of them will work unless the person using tham has an ounce of common sense and a bit of the alpha leader about them.

When I train my dogs don't ask me how I go about it, they just do what I tell them when I tell them and I couldn't even begin to write down and market my methos! :o ...perhaps I should! :D :D ;)

Francis Burton

5th Oct 2005, 08:39 AM

[Even more off the topic of this thread, sorry. :rolleyes: ]

Wally wrote:
"the alpha leader"

Hmm! You might be interested in the thread titled "Bullying?", if you haven't seen it already. (And if you have, you will understand why I went Hmm! ;) )

nix

5th Oct 2005, 08:47 AM

Ditto Chev and Wally. It is a shame though that my and Francis' equine ethology (oh dear, now I'm not even sure whether to use upper or lower case initial letters) questions weren't answered on the thread, it isn't anything I've been able to find out elsewhere on the 'net. I realise that the OP was asking about a different aspect of the Equine Ethology/Parelli Conference, so I apologise for any hijacking, although my questions were not too far from the topic ;). I can also understand people being defensive if they feel that their methods are being attacked, but surely these sort of questions are okay?

I was rather hoping that one of the PNH people might be able to shed some light, as I don't really want to have to join the Savvy Club to ask the question on their forum (£12.50 per month seems rather a lot for one question ;) ) . Perhaps one of the NR PNH members could let me know if it is the sort of question I can email to a PNH official?

Chev, or any other mod, I hope this post is not seen as inflammatory and is in keeping with the spirit of NR :).

Jacquie

5th Oct 2005, 10:17 AM

For my tuppenceworth, I aggree with Chev, Parelli does seem to bring out a certain je ne sais quoi in folk.
I have read about it and have come to the conclusion that there is nothing new in it.
I hate the way it is marketed so aggressively.
I've been following this thread with interest and also agree with Chev. But surely if moderators are posting comments like the one above surely it's leaving the door open for others to follow suit. :rolleyes:
If comments like this are made then it must be expected that PNH followers will reply to them. ;)

Naturally

5th Oct 2005, 11:04 AM

Well, it seems OK to have a snipe here, but not post a reply to a snipe. Odd moderation techniques but there you have it.

For what it's worth Linda to answer your earlier question on where it is written. My investigations today led me only to blurbs either written by Mr Mariott for Equine Ethology, or other, what appears to be, paid advertising. I found nothing on the BEF or FFE sites to back it up.

Very curious indeed and PNH students in the UK should be raising some serious questions. :mad:

Mossy

5th Oct 2005, 12:31 PM

Hi There,

I am just after people's views to the demonstration at 3.30pm by Ferdi Eilberg.
Thread 1 on this post Please would somebody reply. I do not know of Ferdi Eiberg and would like to learn more about HIM!

Esther.D

5th Oct 2005, 12:43 PM

Mossy - there is a bit more of a discussion on here http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64509
that might be worth trying to ask on now that this thread has gone a bit off-topic...

Oh and for the record generally, I am a mod who does Parelli...we are not some kind of anti-Parelli organisation we just try to keep things civilised on here which is difficult when every time Parelli is mentioned it all blows up into a big fight. We had to ban discussions of hunting for this very reason so please everyone (on both sides) try to play nicely ;) Moderators all have their own opinions, when we comment we are giving our own views rather than the views of NR unless we expressly state that this is the official NR line on something.

cvb

5th Oct 2005, 02:39 PM

arg Chev - I wanted to add in some information I believe is pertinent to the "Equine Ethology" conversation but am concerned now that it is in appropriate...

but as there is another thread on Ferdi, and with apologies to the original poster...

I think perhaps being aware that "Equine Ethology" and the infinity logo thingie are being trademarked by PNH (UK I believe) (note NOT by FEI or BHS etc etc).

So is this really about an extension to a broader area of scientific exploration ? Or about a rebranding ? Or... ?

also more than a little boggled about Naturally saying Considering Parelli coined the term NH you are way way off course with that statement.

what about Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance etc - and all those before that...

chev

5th Oct 2005, 02:58 PM

No worries cvb. If the thread evolves, fair enough. What I don't want is any more of the sniping (from either side) that seems to accompany every Parelli thread that starts at the moment.

On the subject of equine ethology... what concerns most people I think is the way in which PNH seems to have taken an established science's name (if that makes sense!) and linked it very firmly (through trademarking it) to PNH. Equine ethology (the study of horse behaviour) is about much more than just one method. If it's Equine Ethology (Parelli method) fine; but to actually take a term and imply that only PNH is about horse behaviour (and thus by implication excluding other NH methods) it is a bit cheeky.

My view is simply that I don't give a toss who coined what term. I'll use what helps, and not use what doesn't. My horses don't really care what I call it either.

LindaAd

5th Oct 2005, 03:18 PM

Gee I can see where this is going. No thanks, you can battle that **** in your own head. Considering Parelli coined the term NH you are way way off course with that statement.

Oh and should I say, pardon me if that sounds rude Linda ;)

I thought the Parelli term was NaturalHorseManship - with capitals to show that it was special?

Linda

LindaAd

5th Oct 2005, 03:35 PM

That is my understanding from all that I have read and been told. Look it up if you want to know more.

As for the marketing comment, this was first adopted in Europe by the FFE and THEY chose Parelli Method as the method which best supports what they want as the baseline standard of horsemanship. It has been modified in about 8 stages to suit the FFE, so it is not true to Parelli in terms of levels 1-3, however level 8 is basically level 3, it's just broken down into more bitesize chunks.

Are we talking about the same thing here? I've finally found the FFE site -
it's here:

http://www.ffe.com/cgi-bin/dyn_ffe/genere.pl?cat=1&fic=infos/formation/equitation_ethologique.html

They have adopted equine ethology (which is their term for natural horsemanship - notice, no capital letters. They have divided the study into five levels (not 8), which they call Savoirs (this is French for Knowledge, and their traditional levels are called Galops). The links tell you what you learn on each level - they include aspects of horse care as well as handling horses and riding, and there's no mention of carrot sticks or anything similar, although I believe they do recommend Parelli's books among others (this information is on another site).

There are also links to officially recognised riding schools. One of them is owned by Parelli, or Parelli people (La Cense); of the others, I don't know enough about the people involved to tell if they're Parelli bods or not.

I hope this helps. The French is pretty easy; I'll get round to translating it one day, but I'm a bit busy with other things this week. Meanwhile, if anyone has any more good links, please let us know.

Linda

The rule-books are here
http://www.lavauzelle.com/Commerce/welcome.htm
unfortunately, there's no information about the contents, but you can see from this page the range of activities that the FFE supports - much wider than the BHS. It helps put things in context, I think.

Linda

LindaAd

5th Oct 2005, 03:37 PM

For what it's worth Linda to answer your earlier question on where it is written. My investigations today led me only to blurbs either written by Mr Mariott for Equine Ethology, or other, what appears to be, paid advertising. I found nothing on the BEF or FFE sites to back it up.

Very curious indeed and PNH students in the UK should be raising some serious questions. :mad:

So where did you get your information from, Naturally?

I found the FFE site I was looking for, by the way - see my previous post. Thanks for your help.

Linda

blumke99

5th Oct 2005, 03:43 PM

Legally, I don't see how a brand can trademark a field of scientific study. If they have used the name "Equine Ethology" with no bracketed caveat naming the Paerlli method, I don't see how it can be upheld if challenged. It would be like Microsoft trademarking the term "Computing".

A lot of trademarking is actually done without sufficient legal grounding. When taken to court, a lot of trademarks can be successfully contested.

Wally

5th Oct 2005, 04:56 PM

What did I say?????

I have an opinion too, I don't like the heavy marketing. What's wrong with that????

I don't like the marketing of a lot of makes of horse shoes and saddles either. It's all a bit too evangelical for my tastes.

As Esther says you don't need to spend the money to follow the Parelli way, but they'd rather you did.

I have read his books, some I will use some I will not have near any of my horses, simple as that.....but there's a lot in the horse world I feel the same about.

Demson

5th Oct 2005, 05:42 PM

What is surprising is just how much bashing PNH gets..I mean look at the training in jumping horses, some people give consideration and time into training a horse to jump whereas others just plugh into it and use spurs, whips, gadgets and from what I've heard use a technique called rapping. Other equine disciplines have good and bad training techniques but they don't get hit hard with debates like Parelli does.

From what is said I guess a lot of jealousy is involved...what is wrong in marketing...if people are prepared to pay the prices for the equipment then let them and good on PP for finding something that has earned him a good living. However he isn't the only one to make money from Marketing...look at the cost of some saddles that are on the market at up to £2k, Dressage / Showjumping equipment and attire can make your bank balance shrivel.

I would love to attend a 5 day course which in my mind is relatively cheap in comparison to what I spend at a weekend of HDT.

Let me explain....

Okay to attend a 5 day course, that will cost me around £600 plus travel expenses.

I could live in my caravan and I have very good portable stabling. So in all the extra I need to pay for is my food...that is if The NEEC centre would allow me to use my caravan and stabling. For that I would get 6 hrs of tuition each day.
If I said about £400 for food and fuel just to give a rounded figure of £1k

That would still give a cost of £200 per day for 6hrs tuition at £33 per hour approx.

In comparison I spend approx £400 to compete at an HDT event

Over the weekend I spend 5min on a dressage test and approx 3 min in the cones.

The Marathon takes about 1 1/2 hours.

So I spend £400 for l hour and 38 min enjoyment for a cost of £400. That works out at approx £266 per hour ....

Works out a hell of a lot dearer and the equipment is not cheap. In fact HDT makes PNH cost pennies.

The only difference is, is that it is the organisation that makes the money rather than a Man and his wife...

Okay I'm bored and at the moment having problems breathing so I'll stop rambling and enjoy the threads instead... :D

Jacquie

5th Oct 2005, 06:17 PM

I don't like the heavy marketing. What's wrong with that????
I don't like the marketing of a lot of makes of horse shoes and saddles either. It's all a bit too evangelical for my tastes.
I have read his books, some I will use some I will not have near any of my horses, simple as that.....but there's a lot in the horse world I feel the same about.
Wally, I think your post is perfectly acceptable if you've expressed your feelings on this forum about the aggressive marketing of other products and posted negative opinions on various other non PNH threads....... ;)

chev

5th Oct 2005, 06:22 PM

I disagree Demson. I've seen just as much critisism levelled at disciplines like jumping, showing, flat racing... the difference is that the people involved in those disciplines don't seem to be so vociferous in their responses to critisism. Every aspect of horsemanship gets a bashing somewhere along the line. It's up to the people involved in that discipline to respond with maturity and reason, rather than resorting to personal remarks and catty put-downs.

There's nothing wrong with marketing in my view, per se. As long as that marketing does not impinge on the welfare of the horses involved. It's then up to the individual to decide whether or not to part with their cash. But there are aspects of Parelli's marketing that worry me... this equine ethology being one of them. I read elsewhere that the man himself is said to be unhappy at the use of the term, but is unable to do much about it because he's sold the rights to PNH in the UK and France. That does have rather scary implications; not least for PNH itself.

Demson

5th Oct 2005, 06:33 PM

Apart from Hunting I have never seen such a mixed discussion that often turns argumentive. I mean I have yet to go onto a thread and see realms of anti showjumping comments that get more irate as more opinions are produced, same as for eventing and dressage and le trek etc...

However I am very much open to be shown how wrong I am, Just show me where these other opiniated threads on other equine disciplines are and then I will agree with you but until then I stick to my opinion. ;)

chev

5th Oct 2005, 06:35 PM

That's the thing. They don't become argumentative or get so personal. Critisism is levelled, answered, and we move on. I can send you some links to some threads that illustrate the point but I'm not sure what it would prove, to be honest.

Demson

5th Oct 2005, 06:40 PM

That is just what I mean, other disciplines are discused in a better manner but Parelli and Hunting seems to raise people hackles.

chev

5th Oct 2005, 06:44 PM

Agreed. Which is why I keep asking that the threads are kept civilised.

Can I take it then that those participating in Parelli-related discussion, regardless of whether they use Parelli's methods or not, will now play nicely? (And I mean that in no derogatory sense whatsoever....)

janet hakeney

5th Oct 2005, 06:55 PM

It can get a bit like the Arabs and the Israelis. Each side denies the others right to exist at all, and both feel that they have historical rights to the same territory. Little compromise is offerred or given on either side as both feel threatened and backed into a corner.

David80

5th Oct 2005, 07:07 PM

But there are aspects of Parelli's marketing that worry me... this equine ethology being one of them.

I am not so sure that you can lay that at Parelli's door. Looking at the body language and the fact they made themselves absent after their sessions makes you wonder. Usually they are around for the whole day and make themselves available to everyone, not so this year.

I think this is more to do with the UK management striking off in a different direction and obviously money orientated. I read somewhere, was it here, that the UK franchise is up for renewal. So here is a thought, could this EE route be a way of avoiding the franchise route?

They seem to be getting things in place. I was looking at their new equipment range and it is not of the same quality as the Parelli rope, in fact some of the 3rd party stuff is better than that.

Francis Burton

5th Oct 2005, 10:58 PM

janet hakeney wrote:
"I can go back through posts on half a dozen different websites to where people have described themselves as 'trained equine ethologists' (I don't know if they are or not = supposed) They have posted that equine ethology is just the study of wild horses in their natural environment and any other use of the phrase (ie applied equine ethology...or the recentNH use of it) is an anathema. I have been at internet conferences where similar things have been said."

Janet - A couple of months ago, I posted on IHDG about the appropriation of the term "equine ethology". I never described myself as a "trained equine ethologist", because I am not. As far as I'm concerned, the phrase "applied equine ethology" isn't a problem at all because it is exactly what it says on the tin. However, I do have misgivings about its use as the new name for PNH.

My first and very minor concern is about the confusion this is liable to cause. If one sees an event advertised with Equine Ethology in its title, one can't be sure now if it's science or Parelli without looking more closely.

My second concern is potentially more serious. By calling itself Equine Ethology, the organization makes the implicit claim that its teachings are grounded in the scientific study of ethology. (Advertising literature may make this claim explicit - I don't know.) Many of them may well be, but some may not. How are people to know what is sound and what is dubious? Are all statements about equine behaviour to be taken on trust, or are students given pointers to published research and encouraged to develop a critical faculty with which to evaluate new ideas? That's why I asked the question earlier about the extent to which Equine Ethology actually involves the study of equine ethology.

I don't think these concerns are totally unreasonable, do you? :o

To be honest with you, I am suspicious of some ideas in PNH - specifically those which emphasize the importance of dominance. These ideas are widespread (almost ubiquitous in the States), and are by no means confined to Parelli. However, it worries me that these tenets, which rationalize certain attitudes to horses and ways of handling them, may be given spurious legitimacy by reference to ethology, either implicitly or explicitly. It would bother me if any organization did this - I don't have a particular axe to grind with Parelli.

cvb

6th Oct 2005, 10:01 AM

I thought the Parelli term was NaturalHorseManship - with capitals to show that it was special?

Linda

With the capitals and the dots, it is a trademark. But the term itself - natural horsemanship - is not "owned" and could not be !

Francis Burton

7th Oct 2005, 03:32 PM

Following on from what cvb wrote, a third concern about the Equine Ethology name would be if it interfered in any way with people using the phrase "equine ethology" in the usual sense. For example, would it stop anyone from organizing and advertising an Equine Ethology Conference? To my mind, that would be highly undesirable, but I don't know what the implications of a trademark would be. Surely it wouldn't restrict conventional usage of the term? :confused:

(Incidentally, I think it was Natural Horse-Man-Ship (with hypens or dots) that was trademarked, at least according to the title of the Western Horseman book.)

cvb

17th Oct 2005, 10:15 AM

I just got back from a week away to find a long email from Parelli Uk responding to feedback about the conference. I am in catch-up mode so appreciate it may have been posted elsewhere... but most interesting !

not sure about quoting it - as it went out to members only so not sure what the position is. But just the fact that they are responding actively (and quickly) is interesting.

Naturally

17th Oct 2005, 11:02 AM

I think it's called "damage control" CVB. You will also discover that Parelli UK and Equine Ethology are not actually the same thing, or at least, not for long.

cvb

17th Oct 2005, 11:11 AM

Naturally - you can't say stuff like that and not explain ! :p

I know the "story" is that Equine Ethology is the general term and Parelli is the brand, but that tale does not explain why Parelli UK are trademarking Equine Ethology ! Wonder if I should pose some questions, like whether future "shows" (note - its not a conference !!) will include non-parelli approaches ??

Demson

17th Oct 2005, 12:46 PM

It is fine to let anyone know about the contents of the letter as I have had confirmation of this form the EE.

However a lot of people think the letter is more on the self defence rather than the real explanatory route.
The way it is worded can seem this way and also there were questions that were raised and the answers had not been included.

For this reason I sent of an emial and recieved a very prompt reply from BIll Crawshaw who in his email explained everyhting in a much better way. I think they should have asked Bill to write the first letter and not PR...

Personnaly I have had no problems getting replies to all of my emails and IMO that is because I have stayed level headed and not rushed in all angered and thinking irrationally and I tried to see objectives from all angles. Others who have sent irate emails (as they have said they have done) have yet to recive a single reply.

Hopefully we shall now start to understand more about what is happening and decide on which path we want to continue on..

Mossy

17th Oct 2005, 10:07 PM

Can you specify your abbreviations as to alot of folks on this site, me included, EE means Enlightened Equitation, ie Heather Moffat!

Chablis

18th Oct 2005, 02:58 AM

There's nothing wrong with marketing in my view, per se. As long as that marketing does not impinge on the welfare of the horses involved. It's then up to the individual to decide whether or not to part with their cash. But there are aspects of Parelli's marketing that worry me... this equine ethology being one of them. I read elsewhere that the man himself is said to be unhappy at the use of the term, but is unable to do much about it because he's sold the rights to PNH in the UK and France. That does have rather scary implications; not least for PNH itself.

That's an interesting point, Chev. PP is not happy (from what I've read/been told by friends/contacts) AND the UK/Australasia contract runs out soon and it will revert back to the main PNH area so that it doesn't get stuffed up again.

I can't confirm this, we just have to wait and see what happens.

From what I understand is that Equine Ethology (the UK stuff not the general term) has changed dramatically from what the PNH method is all about hence the original posters question. I'm very glad I didn't save up and attend the UK conference as I would have demanded my money back (after travelling all the way from Australia as some students have done).

Did anyone film the conference? In particular, Charlotte's lesson with Ferdi?

Chablis

18th Oct 2005, 03:06 AM

To be honest with you, I am suspicious of some ideas in PNH - specifically those which emphasize the importance of dominance. These ideas are widespread (almost ubiquitous in the States), and are by no means confined to Parelli. However, it worries me that these tenets, which rationalize certain attitudes to horses and ways of handling them, may be given spurious legitimacy by reference to ethology, either implicitly or explicitly. It would bother me if any organization did this - I don't have a particular axe to grind with Parelli.

Actually this is a concern (dominance) for PNH as well as they don't want people dominating their horses so are no longer using this term. Neither are they using disrespect etc. I attended a workshop recently and the most important part of the workshop was inforcing how important rapport is with your horse and how you can have your horse want to be with you and not because you have forced it/given no choice.

Part of the Parelli message is to use NO fear, force or intimidation yet how many people do without realising it?

They are teaching giving the horse freedom of choice, the ability to say yes or no and if the horse gives you a no, how can you provide incentive so that the horse wants to play with you?

Very enligtening workshop. At the end I could see big improvements in everyone's relationships with their horses. They started off discussing theory and then people simply went and sat with their horses in their yards for 20 minutes and did nothing.

Students had to wait for their horse to come to them without any coercion (sp) and touch them first before they were allowed to take them out of the yard. Some horses took 2 minutes some 10 minutes and one took 3 hours!

The aim was to have the horse touch YOU first (curiosity) and not have the horse just put up with you because you would cause them to be uncomfortable if they didn't let you catch them. They have changed level 1 and 2 assessment to reflect this.

One horse didn't want anything to do with the owner so the instructor had the student do approach and retreat and then when the horse looked at her, to simply walk away and leave the horse alone.

She progressed to then giving the horse food and then walking off. While everyone was in the arena, she worked on building rapport with her horse. It was beautiful to watch.

Amazing how a different choice of words can make a big difference.

Demson

18th Oct 2005, 06:52 AM

EE is just an abreviation of Equine Ethology

Naturally

18th Oct 2005, 07:09 AM

[QUOTE=cvb]Naturally - you can't say stuff like that and not explain ! :p
QUOTE]

lol CVB, it's not playing fair is it. :p I've sent you a PM, but for the sake of putting something here, it is suffice to say that PNH students (IMO) have been mislead (by EE) to think that EE was a progression of PNH. As it turns out, it is not one and the same, and in the future the two programs will be exclusive, after contractual arrangements have disolved I believe.

A vast number of PNH students have "walked" with their memberships and will await until things are back on track for PNH to rejoin - which WILL happen. As far as I can tell, all those who have "walked" are the devoted and dedicated and interested in maintaining pure Parelli training.

That's probably raised more questions than answers, but the best I can do ;)

chev

18th Oct 2005, 07:11 AM

And Enlightened Equitation... Good job Heather didn't trademark it... ;) :p

Demson

18th Oct 2005, 07:35 AM

cvb

18th Oct 2005, 08:44 AM

Can you specify your abbreviations as to alot of folks on this site, me included, EE means Enlightened Equitation, ie Heather Moffat!

Mossy - if I forgot some, my apologies - as I actually started writing EE and then expanded it for exactly the reason you mention !! "Our" use of EE for Enlightened Equitation way predates any use from Parelli.... :)

Chablis

27th Oct 2005, 03:51 AM

JUST IN CASE........Please if you reply with negative comments please don't make the thread into a battle field. I don't mind opinions as that is what keeps threads going but to get argumentive is silly and pointless. I am not against or for EE as yet but I am interested into where it will lead. So my thread continues.... :D

PNH members have not been misled over the new Equine Ethology system, maybe kept waiting for information but definately NOT misled.

A lot of people got hostile and irate (which is not how you should react) and sent in hostile emails that were rightly ignored. Those that stayed level headed got replies to their emails with good information.

On the Coco site we received a letter (which was sent out to members a few days later) which was missing some answers and did seem to be excusing what was happening with Ee vs PNH and also on the outcome of the Ferdi Eilberg demonstration.

I then sent off an email and got a reply that give a shorter but more informative explanation and it did make a lot of sense.

The main gist is that PNH was all for the EE system but then pate an dlinda decided that they wanted their name Parelli to stay and also decided against some of the changes being made. When this was refused (because using the term PNH as a trademark suggests horsemanship belongs to Parelli and it doesn't so it just could not be done) however for this reason Pat pulled out and thus EE became seperate to PNH. PP has a contract with the UK which runs out in October 2006 and it is thought that he may not renew this contract thus no more Parelli UK and we would have to continue our path through ParelliUSA. Hopefully PP does renew th econtract which will allow people to choose the path they wish to take more easily as a lot of people may find it too difficult.
I don't find the EE a bad thing all together as anything that teaches people to interact with horses in a more natural and understanding way can't be a bad thing. Also havig Dave Stewart and Charlotte Dennis there can ensure that the right principles are followed.
It is going to be very interesting to see what happens over the year and especialy this time next year.

IMO I find people are saying a lot when they don't really know much and are quick to bad mouth. If the EE centre was encouraging old fashioned methods of tying horses down and reining them in etc I could understand but they are not.

Again if anyone went to the Oen Day I'd love to hear about it, any information helps us to understand what is happening and if it is a good thing or not..

I can see where you are coming from Demson. But the fact is they need to let students know what is actually happening instead of leaving them in the dark or in some cases, very polite emails were sent to them asking for answers only to have the senders attacked by a certain person.

This is NOT acceptable. A lot of students feel they have been misled, you have only to look at the reason this thread was created.

We NEVER received anything like you received on the Coco site.

I am a very dedicated PNH student and find that the service provided since the UK end took over is shocking! I've had lot's of friends end their Savvy Club membership because of it!

For a while we weren't even receiving the benefits that we are paying for in the Savvy Club. Do you think this is fair?

To keep PNH alive (for us in Australia) a group of friends and I (1) Created a website so students all over Australia could keep in touch (2) Created a monthly newsletter to cover LOCAL news (incidentally now covers many states) and (3) Arranged Christine Corbridge and Fiona Darling are also travellling to us to teach us.

Demson

27th Oct 2005, 06:35 AM

Hi Chablis

can I just say that alll the Coco's received was ONE letter which was also sent out by post to all members. The other correspondence that I received were emails that were pesonnally sent to me and I got very good replies within 1-2 days as I kept my emails calm but direct. Others who sent in hostile emails got no response or when they did it was more on a busines level with not much explanation.

This alone shows that as with horses there is a right and wrong way to approach a situation and most people reacted as most do and that was to get angry first, shout out without thinking then start to clam down and only then start to think rationally. Just the opposite of what PP teaches us.

I too was fed up and felt like exploding but I know that is not the right way to go about anything.
Here in the UK we, myself included are not impressed with the EE in the way they kept everything from us. All we were aware was that PNH had moved from Devon to bigger premises NOT that the EE was going to take over PNH.

I myself will continue my route and learning curve through PNH as this is what inspired me to start and it is what works for me and my horse.

I missed the open day at the NEEC and I wanted to go so that I could see first hand what it was all about and have a more indepth view. Now I can't do that..

I won't be resigning as Coco or cancelling my membership unless it in someway stops me from continuing with PNH and at the moment it doesn't.

It is great that you have a community built up by yourselfs and the subject of doing the same has been mentioned here in the UK. Whether someone takes on the responsibility I don't know. I certainly can't as I have too much to do anyway.

We are waiting of news from the USA to see when they start a Savvy Club for the UK..Time will tell...

Cheers

Dawn

cvb

27th Oct 2005, 08:33 AM

I finally gave in and emailed in a question myself to "info@" email address. I did get responses, but was ultimately referred to Bill C (who seems to be away at the moment ?).

I guess I have two reflections - one is that the lack of clarity from the UK team is because they don't actually have a crystal ball so don't know all the answers themselves. They may have a "vision" but the devil is normally in the detail and this may not all be worked through yet.

No "excuse", just a possible "reason" why we are not getting full and transparent explanations !

However, my less charitable feeling is that they are seriously underestimating their membership. They seem to be forgetting that we are all out here in the real world with real experience of business, training etc etc. I happen to work for an awarding body - so I would struggle to accept a suggestion, for example, that the name change was to improve acceptance by colleges. Changing a name alone would NOT do that - changing more - the remit, the objectives, the requirements, the assessment etc etc etc might make the difference.

I feel I am being fobbed off with "its just a name change" when it seems highly likely it is WAY more than that :mad:

Jacquie

27th Oct 2005, 10:22 AM

I am not so sure that you can lay that at Parelli's door. Looking at the body language and the fact they made themselves absent after their sessions makes you wonder. Usually they are around for the whole day and make themselves available to everyone, not so this year.

I think this is more to do with the UK management striking off in a different direction and obviously money orientated. I read somewhere, was it here, that the UK franchise is up for renewal. So here is a thought, could this EE route be a way of avoiding the franchise route?

They seem to be getting things in place. I was looking at their new equipment range and it is not of the same quality as the Parelli rope, in fact some of the 3rd party stuff is better than that.
I totally agree David80. The EEC seem to be pushing Parelli out the back door. I was a Savvy club member but since this turn around I've cancelled my membership (still following PNH though). However, a few days ago I received some mail from the EEC explaining there reasons for the change and also putting in a price list of their new EEC course fees.
Strange how they're suddenly targeting ex Savvy club members isn't it? :rolleyes:

Francis Burton

27th Oct 2005, 10:52 AM

How do the two organisations/branches differ in terms of philosophy and practical horsemanship?

Yann

27th Oct 2005, 11:19 AM

I would guess that there isn't any difference - from the outside looking in this does appear to have been a commercial move to make the whole thing more mainstream. Hence the proposed BHS training tie in and the addition of non parelli displays at the conference, I gather there's more dressage on offer at Wrexham soon again.

It does appear to have been badly handled though.

cvb

27th Oct 2005, 11:32 AM

How do the two organisations/branches differ in terms of philosophy and practical horsemanship?

The mission statement (ex-PNH UK a.k.a. EEA) is to raise the level of horsemanship in the UK and around the world

I am guessing this mission is shared but the how to go about it in Europe is where the differences start to come in.

from what I have heard there seems to be a risk in that trying to broaden the reach (e.g. through different instructor qualification routes, different suppliers for equipment etc) the depth gets sacrificed.

If there are limited instructors do you increase their numbers by making the journey less rigorous ? Or do you find better ways to support them through the existing journey ??

if the equipment is expensive, do you open the market up to increase competition and reduce prices that way ? or do you keep the market closed but offer a less expensive and lower quality option ?

those are the kind of choices that seem to be being made...

The basic horsemanship principles may be the same... but the values behind them seem to be different, which means the practice is different as well.

Mark Rashid sometimes comments along the lines of living your life the way you want to be with your horse. These kind of life choices are a reflection of the kind of choices we make with our horses. We will all choose the path most appropriate to us. "Different" does not necessarily mean better/worse ;)