Ever decreasing circles

[Yann]

I have a problem with the good old 20m circle, I set off on a reasonable line but before I know it the horse is veering inwards and I have to try and steer / push him back out again. I know it's me as each horse I've ridden in the school has done the same thing. Any hints as to how I can improve the situation?

[floppy]

inside leg with outside rein!
and use your outside rein to hold the horse out, the inside rein to help push him out with the aid of the inside leg to push him out and the outside leg to hold him out.. dont worry i have the same problem 99% of th etime!:D i always practise circles at walk..but more detail i will have to get back ot you on that as i have to go

[Bebe]

Hi Yann

I think this is a problem most people have, I know I do, so I wouldn't worry too much.

Circles will become much easier as you learn to get the horse working forwards into the bridle and on the aids (on the bit). This takes a lot of time but hope it gives you some glimmer of hope that it will get easier!

Anyway, a couple of things that helped me (other that inside leg to outside rein) are:

If your horse starts to drift out on the circle, think of riding a square instead. Helps to keep the horse from drifting and usually produces a better circle. If the horse drifts in, think of riding a diamond shape.

Split the circle into a grid of 4. Ride each quarter of the circle as an individual movement. If one quarter doesn't go so well, forget about it and move to the next one. Ride to your markers too, a 20m circle starting at E should hit G (on centreline 5 metres or so (could be wrong on that, may be 10m in from track, just head for midpoint between two opposite letters) in from C and between H and K), then you should be on the track at B (that's your first and second quarters), third quarter goes to D (in from A and on centreline between F and K) and then you should be back on the track at E where you started, that's your final quarter. Sounds technical but isn't so bad when you're in the school and can see the letters.

Hope this helps
Amanda

[FRED]

Hello Yann, I had just the same problem, as time went on I became much more relaxed and this was probably the cause of the problem for me, being tensed up. I did a little work with out stirupps and this was a big help.
I did find that once the horse went off line, every time we got to the same spot he would do it,and some times I would loose balance.

We would change rein if this happened,and it worked.
I also noticed that if a horse ever shied, {very rare,but it has happened}every time we got to that particular spot,the horse would go off line.So again changed rein and this did the trick.
I had some challenging horses in the manage,I found a quick walk
for a few circles then going into trott also helped, eventualy I was doing 20m cicles and going over the poles too and being asked to slow, my confidence became so much improved, I do find that when I change horse that I take a while to adjust.
Good luck and hope there may be some help in this.
Best wishes from Fred

[floppy]

mid point = X

ehm i was also going to write last night that if you ever get the chance to ride circles on a freshly, whats the word..., ploughed(?) arena this will help imensly with circles because once you ride in an arena that already has tracks around it the horse tends to follow it and it can be difficult to get the horse (if its a riding school horse) to go eslewhere but round the track. But this isnt always possible..i know..but it does help with circles and pushing the horse into the corners of the arenas...also if the horse is moving forwards correctly and not using his back leggies to do the work its hard to go round with a horse that isnt going round so make sure you have accomplished the horse bending his WHOLE body too.

Other than the legs you have to bring your inside shoulder back and your outside shoulder forwards so you too are going round in a circle...not just the horse...a horse cant go round in the circle if you are sitting dead straight and not going round with the horse because then he will get the signal that he should be going straight and not round...

[Bebe]

I'm not sure how much good bringing the shoulders around would do for a beginner rider. It's far too easy to overdo this, especially when you don't have an independent seat. What happens is that the rider often ends up collapsing their ribcage on the inside, offsetting their weight and actually making the horse fall in or pop a shoulder. The riders shoulders should mirror the horses, and if you look at the bend of a correctly ridden horse on a 20m circle, it isn't all that much so you don't really need to worry about it at first. It's handy to keep in mind, and will become useful, but if you're at all worried about your position, I wouldn't panic too much about it. The thing I found much more useful at first was to always look between the horses ears (was told to look around the circle at first, just made my head turn and again, my offset weight unbalanced the horse).

It depends which image works for you.

You could try imagining that the horse ends at the front of the saddle. This eliminates the worry of having to deal with the horses neck (which I think most riders would agree that we focus on it too much when really, all we need to do is get the hind end in gear). It really helped me get better accurate circles to imagine this.


Agree with being able to ride in a freshly raked arena, really helps you to get the horse into the corners and if you look back at your tracks, they tell you so much about how the horse is going.

Good luck
Amanda

[ros]

Falling in on circles is one of those things I think everybody has problems with at one time or another. It seems to be largely a balance thing - either the horse isn't sufficiently experienced and well-balanced, or the rider mucks it up for both of them!

You need to remember NOT to motor-bike. If you lean your upper body in it just makes things worse.

Shoulders? I was always told to turn my shoulders slightly to the inside. It DOESN'T WORK. If you do that you'll find you automatically advance your outside hip, which signals to the horse that you want it to move to the outside. Then it ends up falling through the outside shoulder, and you use your inside rein to try and pull it back on course, and bingo! confusion reigns.

If you concentrate on advancing your inside hip a little (without leaning in) and leave your shoulders to do their own thing you'll find your horse will turn much more easily. I know - I had exactly the same problem.

[floppy]

today i had a dressage lesson and my instrcutor suggested anew thing to me for my circles..
he suggested trying to do a circle in the centre of the arena instead of at the neds and also made me do a series of circles down the middle..you can fit 4 10 m circles down the centre of the dressage arena.

What i meant by shoulders is that i always use to sit too squarely on the hrose and my trainer taught me last year that i need to bring my shoulders round..because blocking the horse going round. Your upper body has to turn slightly to help tell the horse what he/she is suppose to be doing.Its what i was taught to (by 3 different people) I do not mean over doing the shoulders so you are motorbiking in the corners...ah nevermind i seem to be havign problems trying to explain this in writing.

[Bebe]

Hi Floppy

I know what you mean about things being hard to explain. With the shoulders thing, I always leave my outside shoulder behind on circles and my instructors spent ages shouting at me to bring it around. To anyone who just heard that without seeing my ride, they may have thought it was wrong but it made sense to me and made an immediate difference to the horse. Some things are just hard to explain without doing it yourself so others can watch. Plus explaining anything purely in text is hard.

Amanda

[ros]

This circles thing is a pig, isn't it!

For all those people who, like me, have been taught for years to turn their shoulders with the horse, can I just ask you to try this experiment? It's very easy and if you get different results from me, then that's fair enough.

1. As you're riding along, maybe on the road or track or maybe down the long side of a school - whatever - just try advancing one hip (if you're in a school, preferably the inside one!); just poke the top of your hip forward, and you'll feel a little more weight on that seatbone. Does your horse respond by moving to that side, even slightly?

2. Stand on your own two feet and move your shoulders to one side then to the other. When I do it, I find that moving my shoulders naturally, without thinking about it, causes my hips to rotate slightly in the same direction; I actually have to make a conscious effort to move my shoulders WITHOUT my hips following.

So what happens when you turn your shoulders on a horse? Logically, if you turn your shoulders to the right on the right rein, your hips will swivel ever so slightly in the same direction, and the horse will feel more weight on your left seatbone - and will usually move to the left - drifting to the outside of your circle!

I'd be interested for feedback.

[floppy]

Originally posted by ros

I find that moving my shoulders naturally, without thinking about it, causes my hips to rotate slightly in the same direction; But sometimes people dont do this and have to be told to do it.
this is what i mean! but people dont try this until someone has told them...because they dont know.
one of my problems is i have only ever learnt how to ride in every language other than english so i find it hard to explain sometimes in english (even though english is my mother tongue)

[ros]

Hi Floppy -

I'm not sure from your last post whether you agree with me or not. If I'm on the right rein, say, I would normally be told to bring my left shoulder forward a little, so I'm twisting my shoulders round to the right to mirror the turn.

What I'm saying is, if I twist my shoulders to the right, it automatically advances my LEFT hip, so my hips are swivelling in the same way as my shoulders. This is the confusing bit, because if I do that I'm ACTUALLY signalling to the horse that I want it to move over to the LEFT! On a right-hand circle I should be advancing my INSIDE hip a little. It's as simple as that.

I was shown this very clearly by Heather's friend Sue in a lesson. On one of Heather's schoolmasters, I headed straight down the long side of the school in trot. Sue told me to turn my shoulders slightly to the inside, nothing more than that - no legs, no reins, just turn my shoulders. What happened was Shoulder Fore! (a sort of forerunner to Shoulder In). That proved to me just how powerful an aid turning the shoulders could be, and it also proved that if I wanted my horse to turn to the right, I certainly shouldn't be turning my shoulders the same way

[floppy]

i agree with you. :)

if you advance your hip on a circle your shoulders go with not greatly but they do so you do need to move your shoudlers too..unless you are riding in a straight line. then your shoulders dont move.
If you didnt move your shoulders slightly you would be twisiting your back .anwyay will finish this later i have to go look at a house!

[rachil]

Following on from your advice to advance the inside hip when bending, does it then follow that to avoid the circle becoming smaller and smaller - as I think Yann was talking about - it is just a question of more inside leg/outside rein?

I've been sitting here advancing hips/shoulders and look forward to trying this out on a horse rather than my chair at work! Do you think it will work on a school horse?

[Bebe]

Rachil

In theory, advancing the hip should work on all horses, even the greenest youngster. But, from past experience, it doesn't always. Most horses have never been taught to recognise this as an aid and have learnt to ignore it, or have never put two and two together to realise that this aid comes before the others. With a little patience and persistence, you can reteach them to respond to this first.

If nothing else, you should feel a slight difference when you do it.

I was taught this on well trained school horses and found that if I forgot to take the seat aid off, we ended up doing 10m circles over and over!

And yes, if the circle gets smaller than you want, use more inside leg to outside rein. Think of the inside leg being a concrete support that the horse must step around. You don't keep it on all the time but this image can help to keep the horse properly bent. Then, if you find the horse drifting in, apply the inside leg in time with the inside hind (to get the hind legs to move over to the outside you need to apply the aid as it is in the air or as opposite hind lands. To get more push underneath, you apply the aid as the hoof reaches the furthest point of extension when on the ground. Closing your eyes helps you to feel this).

Often, if you catch the drift before it really begins, a gentle squeeze on the inside leg followed by a gentle closing of the outside rein is all you'll need to correct it.

All is easier said than done, as usual!

Amanda

[ros]

Yes, Amanda's probably right - a lot of school horses may well be immume to correct aids, but you should get at least a little feel of a turn, I reckon.

I'd like to go back to Yann's original question, which I think referred to that rather panicky situation when the horse starts falling in on a circle rather than just a general reduction of the size of the circle (correct me if I'm wrong, Yann). "Falling in" is a horrid feeling, and I don't think the horse enjoys it much either. I believe it's mainly due to lack of balance on the part of the horse, made worse by the rider leaning in in an attempt to stay with the horse, which is a natural reaction. That's what I meant by "motorbiking". It's usually happened to me in canter, which is a faster pace, and therefore more difficult for the horse to maintain his balance. I think it helps to take things slowly, establish balance in a slower pace first, then do small amounts of the next pace up, and steady up immediately things start to go wrong. My own experience has been that it's very hard to regain balance once you've lost it. TOO MUCH inside leg might make things worse by increasing the pace; taking with the outside hand might also have the effect of making the horse flex to the outside, which would make his balance even more precarious.

[Bebe]

Just to clarify, if the horse starts to fall in mildly, a gentle holding inside leg and closing of the outside rein, which isn't the same as taking with it, not in my mind anyway, should be enough to stop the problem before it starts. Closing the inside rein involves a momentary closing of the fingers around the rein. The hand doesn't move at all and you release as soon as you feel a slight response. The horse shouldn't flex to the outside at all.

If you get a rapid falling in then it's probably best to slow down or even halt, regroup and try again. There's no point continuing with something that is incorrect and puts you in the position of feeling ineffective and insecure. In a lesson, you may not have this option but the instructor should be able to help you rectify it before it reaches this stage.

Amanda

[Yann]

Thanks for all the advice, there is certainly some food for thought here... I certainly have problems motorbiking, particularly at trot and canter, it's a hard habit to break after years of cycling / biking. To try and (over)compensate, my instructor has me raise my inside shoulder, which seems to have helped me avoid collapsing. I'm well aware of the idea of advancing the inside hip, but they don't teach that where I ride unfortunately. I've tried it on a couple of the horses with limited results. I get told to turn in slightly instead.
Visualising the circle and parts of the circle more strongly using the letter markers is a good idea, up to now I've been a bit approximate, really just using the size of the school to plot my route. Pony avoidance doesn't help at times either:)
The falling in never tends to be dramatic or out of balance, just annoying. I do try to push out with the inside leg, it depends on the horse how effective this is. I was going to try things out a bit in my last lesson, but (un)fortunately I ended up on my spotty friend rather than the usual schoolmastery bloke, so had to concentrate rather more on keeping him going than I have become used to lately:)

[floppy]

if you want to conquer motorbiking have a lunge lesson with no stirrups and no reins in walk trot and canter..you hold your arms out to the side liek a scarecrow...that shoudl do the trick :)

[Yann]

Fortunately my spotty friend is a great lunge horse so I actually did some work without reins and stirrups this week... but like many things it takes a while to loose old habits:)

[Pam2]

Sometimes if you 'think' of riding a SQUARE instead of a circle - it works - sounds odd but it does.
Pam