Ferdi Eilberg at Solihull

[David80]

The other Solihull thread has got a bit bogged down on the Ethology name so thought I would start a new one.

Ferdi's session was not what I had expected. I thought it was going to show the progression from PNH to producing a dressage horse. Instead a short time was spent with Charlotte, then he concentrated on his daughter Maria.
It did not strike me that he had any knowledge of PNH. Also the Parelli's were noticeable by their absence!

He commented that Charlotte's horse was calm and laid back. I don't know if that was a compliment or veiled criticism. When Maria came in her horse was very uptight. Is that what they encourage in a dressage horse. Sorry, but it is an area I know nothing about.

After seeing all the Parelli horses in the morning I was surprised that Maria did not have the confidence to lay the reins down on his neck when told to by her Father.

The other thing I noticed was that her horse was trailing his hind slightly through the sand. More noticeable on the left rein.

[kimdouglas]

Hi David,

I know from talking to a lot of the members that they too thought that Ferdi was PNH and that they were going to see the "finished" product so to speak! The first 2 minutes into his lesson with Charlotte I knew that he was not PNH and didnt have the first clue about why WE were all sitting there! It was annoying to think that whoever scheduled him for the conference hadnt informed the ticket holders! For me...I moved away from this type of training because I found it confrontational and lacking. Dont get me wrong...I have nothing against Ferdi or his son and daughter but its not something I would have chosen to witness.

The tightening of Charlotte's horse's noseband was when I "shutdown"...the persistant instruction to concertina her horse like a musical instrument was just plain aggressive which ever way you dress it up...it also contravened everything that Pat and Linda teach us about riding and relationships with our horses. Sunday for me was even worse...the poor highly strung, terrified youngster that the son was riding was ready to explode, Im just glad that the audience had the savvy to not clap for too long or too loud. When the whip came out and was being used on the horses front legs to "help" him perform his movements I just thought thank god for the "choices" we now have to train our horses!!!

I still thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the conference and hope that things will iron out over time!!
Kim x

[janet hakeney]

David I do not disagree with your observations at all. There is a lot I would like to say but have to restrict myself to expressing supreme optimism that in two or three years time it WILL be possible for them to put on a show with named Grand Prix dressage riders whose horses are accustomed to the Pareli system and show the benefits of it.

Think of what you saw at the weekend as a starting point which you will be able to reference in future to judge just how far we have travelled in merging 'natural' and 'normal'

[Demson]

I thought it was wrong to tighten the noseband, hold the horse together and push the horse on from behind...sounded like classical dressage not PNH. The following day I thought the performance was better but have to agree that the young horse Michael (the son) was riding was very insecure with all the strange surroundings etc but you can't blame Ferdi for that. I have just put in my re-subs for level 2 liberty and on-line and find my pony is pretty much relaxed in scary situations...BUT...I could not guarantee he would behave in the same circumstances.

With reference to Ferdi tapping the horses legs , he did not hit the horse but give gentle taps...or so it looked that way to me. The horse did not seem stressed and was not on a tight contact. I thought the Dressage though not PNH was still brilliant

It did mention in the programme that Ferdi was appearing but no..it did not mention that he would not be using PNH techniques...

On a personnal level I was disappointed that the show was basically the same on both days. The previous two years I found the Sunday to be exhilerating but not this time.

Also with all respect to Silke and her fantastic relationship with her horse I do feel she needs to alter her display and change the music...

A lot was focused on EE and they did attempt to explain the logic of using EE but being hard of hearing and being restricted from viewing the screen I was left feeling non the wiser. Guess I need to do some reading LOL

My friend complained to Pam and was told that they were experimenting and trying to combine different types of horsemanship hense bringing in Ferdi EIlberg.

My disappointment was on the demo's during the interval. 90% of the time the headphone were not working and by the time they realised I missed the concepts of what they practised..instead I went for a coffee.

Edited for spelling

[Naturally]

My friend complained to Pam and was told that they were experimenting and trying to combine different types of horsemanship hense bringing in Ferdi EIlberg

See, this is where I am deeply concerned. Most PNH students know that they can go and see a traditional/classical trainer anywhere. Why would they part with their hard earned money for a Parelli Conference and want to see classical dresssage training???? Nothing against the classical stuff, but, well, it's not Parelli. It's like going to a concert to see INXS and getting Mozart. ;) Doesn't mean it can't be appreciated, but it's just not what you've paid for.

[Demson]

When Dave Stewart introduced Ferdi on the Sunday afternoon, he said they would like to show you the end result..I suppose they mean the end result of PNH training and then introduced Ferdi and his son and daughter.

Would it not have been better to have Ingela come back in on her grey horse and show us her horse performing piaffe and passage with only a bit of string for aids?

There was a lot of mixed reactions and a lot of people walked out o n the Sat and Sunday showed a lot of empty seats. :(

[Naturally]

If it's any help I have it on good authority that public opinion has been duly noted on this. ;)

[janet hakeney]

Would it not have been better to have Ingela come back in on her grey horse and show us her horse performing piaffe and passage with only a bit of string for aids?


You liked my little grey horse then did you Demson?

[Demson]

Like...... :eek: what an understatement...what a stunner, you must be such a proud mummy...

I had to pick my jaw off the floor when I saw him and that was before he performed a beautiful Piaffe and Passage. Gosh I can't even get collection..LOL

What is the horses name? being slightly deaf don't help LOL

[janet hakeney]

His name is Negatiw...Tiga to his friends. I have had him since he was two...now eleven. I imported him from Portugal and he has been my stud stallion until 12 months ago when we gelded him so he could do more demos and stuff (the liberty gets a bit too interesting otherwise, and I have another young covering stallion now) He also gets more company and chill time in the field with the other horses as a result.....sort of like he had his family then got the 'snip' :)

Ingela is now borrowing him for demos...this was his third one with her. She adores him, and he is the father of her colt Xippy who you might have seen at the conference in 2003 as a foal.

[cvb]

thought it was wrong to tighten the noseband, hold the horse together and push the horse on from behind...sounded like classical dressage not PNH.

Demson - do you really mean "classical dressage" here ? Cos if so its an interesting view, and not one I would entirely agree with.

just have to direct you to http://www.classicalriding.org/home/whatis and see where that says or implies anything about nosebands etc ;)

Of course what you see in practice in ANY discipline is not always achieving the aim... but then that is not unique to classical dressage, PNH, or any other area...

[Demson]

I am not getting into a debate of what is classical and what ain't, that just leads to the conversation again going off topic.. :D

[David80]

Well, glad I am not the only one who was dissatisfied with the afternoon sessions.

Just moving on from this, is anyone now tempted to attend the next one at Chester. For me it is going to be another 100 miles, plus fuel costs. Will be on a bank holiday w/e with all the traffic jams, out in the open so what about rain, and no Parellis?

Any thoughts?

[kimdouglas]

I know that for me the next conference will be a "maybe"! I'm just gona sit tight and wait and see what the schedule will offer. I wouldnt mind so much the Parelli's not being there as long as we get to see the likes of Inge showing us some of her work with Janet's Lusi's, or a lesson with Silke or Dave doing one of his demo's. All I want is to be inspired....

Kim x

[cvb]

I am not getting into a debate of what is classical and what ain't, that just leads to the conversation again going off topic.. :D

Demson - not trying to take you off track, just trying to clarify what you meant ?

I wasn't at the conference, due to a clash with other commitments, but Am curious about what went on. If only to make a decision about attending future events.

I've always been inspired by previous conferences, but have also found Mark Rashid's clinics to be equally amazing. As anyone does with limited cash, you have to make a choice about where to spend it. It costs me about the same amount to watch a Parelli conference or ride for Mark (its not quite a straight comparison as Mark's clinics are longer so the absolute cost is higher.)

[Demson]

Sorry cvb, I thought you were questioning me personnally, obviously not.

Let me start at the beginning which may or may not help those who did not attend the conference.

PP spent just over 2 hrs talking about the principles of PNH and EE, Then after a short break LP came on and give a great talk on fluidity.

So we had endured approx 4 hrs of listening to principles of using horsemanship naturaly rather than with the mechanics of modern society.

We were then introduced to Ferdi Eilberg who is renowned for trianing the Olympic team to gold status and in his field a true professional. However the problems came when he started his performance by giving a lesson to Charlotte. However this lesson did not have any resemblance to Natural Horsemanship but was in every way directed at Classical Dressage. Or rather the basics of it. My understanding of classical dressage is that of the horse being trained to move with Rhythm, balance, tempo, collection and engagement using a pacific training method to creat a harmonic set of movements in the dressage arena with the rider.

Ferdi Eilberg was demonstrating with Charlotte but as rightly so people were expecting a level of dressage obtained using PNH techniques and didin't get it. Ferdi Asked charlotte to hold the horse toghter and push from behind and he then tightened the noseband much to people's disgust.

The conference was based on "The Foundation to Performance" and Ferdi was there to show the end result. It was a tthe point of the thigtening of the nose band that seen a lot of people walk out.

I only seen him with Charlotte as my friend had to leave early as she was off to a Ballet performance "Yawn" not my scene...and I seen her off and made my way to the ladies room. Another Coco though tI had walked out in disgust when I hadn't.

The next day was roughly the same, PP worked with a level 1 horse and talked about horsemanship as he knows it and Linda give a lesson to a level 1 student which was very interesting.

However after dinner it was another performance with Ferdi (this time with his Son Micheal riding a Show jumper and his Daughter Marie riding dressage)and I noticed a big show of empty seats. I decided to watch the entire performance (so made my ladies room visit early)...I noticed that though he was a traditionalist in the field of Dressage he did use very good horsemanship.

Ferdi spent more time with his daughter and while doing so he made it clear that the horse was never to be blamed for mistakes and insisted praise be given when the horse did well. Teh horse was never nagged into too much repetative work and was constantly allowed to stretch and relax. (not always seen in dressage riders)

Yes he did tap the front of the horses legs just below the level of the chestnut to help his daughter perform the passage. However he didn't use unneccessary force and instead showed a good level of horsemanship. When concentrating on his son he used similar principles.

Now the problem was (I think it was this) is that Micheal and Marie were not riding the PNH way and it didn't help when at the start of the show Ingela came on riding a Luisitano called Tiga and performed Piaffe and Passage first in a headcollar and then with only a savvy string around his neck.

Maybe people expected a similar performance with Ferdi ...I dunno.

So the Ferdi Eilberg on a dressage sense was in my view brilliant but on the Natural Horsemanship side of riding portrayed through PP is was ...not PNH simple as that...Correct me if you think I am wrong...not sure the best way to say what I mean...

Someone came up to me and said ...

"I paid my money to see PNH.....not Classical Dressage. If I wanted to watch Dressage then I would have gone to a Dressage Seminar"

This is the first time that the conference has caused such a stir and it will be interesting to read the response from PP or the team (who ever is gonna deal with this) that is if they are gonna respond to it..

[cvb]

Demson

the recent 10th anniversary of "Classical Riding Club" in UK seems to have generated some ...er... heated discussion just amongst themselves about what it is and isn't ;)

Plus the term isn't "universal" - e.g. what we call "classical" here is "baroque" in Sweden.. and classical means something different to them (more "normal" dressage).

hence the question - as you say, it wasn't personal !

I guess the one thing you can say is that Ferdi's slots in the conference have generated discussion - but whether it is the discussion that was wanted for or hoped for... I guess unless PNH UK or the Parelli's comment we won't know ?

It would be a shame if it had a longer term adverse effect on the viability of the conferences. The BHS do have conferences but don't tend to get the breadth of audience that Parelli has done. Even if its only for the "coming together" of all the horsey folk and networking and so on. I know the big events do this to some degree - but not for discussion and so on...

[Crystal Fire]

I suppose I can sort of see the point. If people were led to believe that they were going to see "the end result", then they would have expected it to be the end result of Parelli training. Ferdi obviously isn't demonstrating this. Even if some people found it interesting I would have thought many would have prefered to have seen more from Parelli students and instructors. After all, this is the major annual event.
It's not the first time something similar has happened. When David O'Connor was riding Charlotte's horse over jumps at a Savvy Conference some years back there were walkouts (not graffiti though! :D ). I think the reasons were similar, it was clear that he wasn't showing the results of Parelli work, and the way he was riding and his tack would never have been used by someone who had reached the top levels in PNH. What made me sad that day was that out in the stall was Stormy, and Silke's two friesians - it was two then, and people would much rather have seen more of them. At the time the comments were similar "This isn't what we got into Parelli to see".
I just think it's a bit of a shame that the major event of the year should have this negative stuff surrounding it. I don't go because I'm not interested enough, but it's still sad.