Monty Roberts

[Jacquie]

I was shocked to read the contents of this link regarding Monty Roberts.
http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/shyboybs.html
Although I don't follow his methods of NH training I have nothing againgst his techniques.
However, I'd certainly have a different opinion if the information on this link is correct.

[notpoodle]

i dont know enough about monty roberts to be able to comment but the website where the article is looks like a general consumer complaints type site ie. is probably not censored and you will only find one-sided arguments/complaints on there

julia
x

[Jacquie]

i dont know enough about monty roberts to be able to comment but the website where the article is looks like a general consumer complaints type site ie. is probably not censored and you will only find one-sided arguments/complaints on there

julia
x
I understand that Julia, but what bothers me is how there's many references to pictures in the book regarding Shy Boy's distress and injuries and also shoes and a freeze brand noticed on apparently 'wild' horses - surely anyone who owns that book can see for themselves whether or not those statements are true?

[chev]

Check out the date on that 'case'. It was the result of a feud between Monty and someone that ended up with all sorts of (mainly groundless) accusations being made, and has no real merit at all.

Imho what Monty did with Shy Boy was wrong. He proved in one way what he set out to prove, but whether it was in the horse's best interests is another thing.

Don't take what's said on that site as gospel though - it's biased, one-sided, in several places groundless, and several years old.

[katefarmer]

I think there is a bit of truth in this website - but we must bear in mind we're talking about the USA where there are lawsuits about absolutely EVERYTHING, and for some people everything is either all black or all white!

My mentor, Richard Thompson, knows the people who own the land and horses where the Shy Boy documentary was made - and there were lots of things that weren't shown on film as they would have "spoiled the story".
(Not really anything that awful, I don't think - just things like Shy Boy was not completely "raw" - he had been worked in the round pen and basically halter trained before the documentary. But then time is money with film crews, and I guess everyone wanted to be as certain as they could be that it would work as quickly as possible! I believe Shy Boy was also caught and tethered with the other horses overnight, then released again the next day - I mean, you don't want the star of the show to disappear into the darkness never to be seen again, do you? Lots of things like this, plus, I think, some irregularities about how long the equine support acts worked at a stretch etc.)

There are also certainly parts of his book (especially the first one) that show a fair degree of "artistic licence" - Roberts himself says some of these were changes made by the publisher to spice it up and unauthorised by him, but he doesn't seem to have done anything about it! However, a lot of this is about details of his upbringing and family, and claims of what he did - and not really anything directly to do with his techniques. Whether or not he was beaten by his father, how and where he learned his techniques, how well he really knew James Dean etc. are not strictly relevant to his training methods today.

Personally, I think he's done a lot to create awareness of alternative and more horse-friendly approaches to training, and has created an entertaining show that takes the message of a more sympathetic approach to animals to a broader market than just horse people - and that has to be a good thing.
If his past has been embroidered for the sake of a good story, he's not the first to do it, and he won't be the last!

I think those who are serious about really learning about equine behaviour and psychology, and how to use it in practical terms will find Monty Roberts a bit superficial and lacking in real understanding of the equine mind quite quickly - but there are plenty of places to go to find out more for those who want to go into more depth.

On the down side, people sometimes get the impression that that's all there is, and dismiss alternative/natural methods accordingly - which is not so good.

I think he's had credibility problems in the USA in recent years (mostly because there IS some truth in the allegations in this website) and has very much been overtaken by Parelli etc. for the general horsy market.

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Crystal Fire]

I respect Monty for introducing so many people in this country to new ideas and opening many minds.
I downloaded the book written by his relatives "Horse Whispers and Lies" when they made it available free on-line. (I could email if anyone wants it, but it's a mess because I ended up having to copy and paste the flippin' thing!). I have to admit that it made interesting reading! I had an email from his Aunt once and she said words to the effect of "If we are lying then why hasn't he sued us?". Certainly some of the evidence they quote is pretty incontestable. So, personally I don't believe a lot of what is in Monty's books, but I respect the contribution he's made to the horse world.

[Yann]

I've got the book (found it in a bargain bookshop :D ) so I've looked up the pictures they've mentioned. Yes, the horse is rearing, but the rope headcollar it has on is clearly not tight on its head. You can't even see the fetlocks in the next picture they refer to, and in the one after you can but the 'swelling' is clearly feather.

The morals of what was done with Shy Boy might be questionable, certainly the pressure of having the thing filmed and getting a result was never going to be helpful in that respect. However this article seems a little scurrilous to say the least. I don't think anyone necessarily has the moral high ground here either, the trainers who were involved with the 'In a Whisper' competition for example have nothing to be proud of.

Whatever the man has or hasn't done he has made a huge contribution to the world of horses and the way they are dealt with. He doesn't sell a system, which is why he'll never be as big as Parelli for example, but an approach and and some accessible techniques that anyone can adopt with very little difficulty or expense. There's still a great need for that kind of message out there.

[Jacquie]

Whatever the man has or hasn't done he has made a huge contribution to the world of horses and the way they are dealt with. He doesn't sell a system, which is why he'll never be as big as Parelli for example, but an approach and and some accessible techniques that anyone can adopt with very little difficulty or expense.
There's no denying Monty has made a huge impact on the horse world. He was the first NH trainer I remember watching doing 'join up'. However, I'm not so sure I can agree with your last statement after reading this link. :rolleyes:
http://www.montyroberts.com/acad_training.html

[chev]

Wow. That's a scary price. Bears out what I feel about most branches of NH being rather over-priced and over-marketed. :(

[Mossy]

a freeze brand noticed on apparently 'wild' horses
That may not be as unreasonable as it seems. The Dartmoor Hill ponies all belong to somebody and are branded. At the annual drift, the new ones are branded with the owners brand. Precisely how untouched wild foals and yearlings are convinced to stand for branding is not something I propose to discuss here! They are then let back out onto the moor for another 12 months.

[Yann]

However, I'm not so sure I can agree with your last statement after reading this link.

LOL! No, not cheap, but comparable with the price of courses run by most other well known professional trainers, bearing in mind that they're in dollars.
What price a week's training course with the Parellis I wonder? :rolleyes:

If you're going to try it yourself at home it doesn't need to cost a penny.

[Francis Burton]

Precisely how untouched wild foals and yearlings are convinced to stand for branding is not something I propose to discuss here! They are then let back out onto the moor for another 12 months.

No doubt to ponder for a while on humans and how nice/horrible they are, so that next time they should meet they will know how to behave!

[Jacquie]

LOL! No, not cheap, but comparable with the price of courses run by most other well known professional trainers, bearing in mind that they're in dollars.
What price a week's training course with the Parellis I wonder?
If you check it out I think you'll find Monty's courses are in line with Parelli's prices. Take for instance the Bombproofing your horse, this three day course costs $700 (£400.00) which is around the same price (give or take a few pounds) as PNH three day courses. So I should imagine the pro rota fee for a weeks course would be the same.
If you're going to try it yourself at home it doesn't need to cost a penny.
I disagree, it doesn't matter what method of training you follow, you still need to purchase certain items to get started. ;)

[chev]

If you're going to try it yourself at home it doesn't need to cost a penny.

Not sure I agree with that either. I think, if you want to follow any NH method, you first need to have at least a couple of lessons. Maybe that would help avoid the many situations where someone who hasn't really understood it fully ends up chasing a confused, exhausted horse around in a pen thinking they're joining up, or whatever.

And after saying that, when I started to use Parelli with first of all May, and then Lili, I spent nothing. I made the carrot stick, and the halter, and the rope, and got a friend to show me the basics.

Any method will cost as much or as little as you want; but generally, if you want to really learn, and really use it, then you end up paying out.

[Francis Burton]

... you still need to purchase certain items to get started. ;)
What items? When I started with horses, I didn't even have a headcollar - it was just me and them! :D

[Jacquie]

What items? When I started with horses, I didn't even have a headcollar - it was just me and them! :D
How ever did you manage to learn from scratch how to handle horses without even the basic items such as an headcollar and lead rope? Your obviously one of the very few Francis that didn't need any help to get started. :)