No respect!

[Desiree]

If anyone has any suggestions, please offer them, I need help!

My fiance trains standardbreds (harness horses) and they are an incredibly intelligent breed. We have a two year old filly (just turned two) who we have had since she was an early yearling.
She is very smart but has no respect to go with it (for me at least). We have always been kind and gentle with her and not rushed her with anything.
However, she is still hard to catch, not because she's scared, but because she knows she can! Once we have her, she's an angel (mostly) it's just trying to catch her that is the problem.

I tried Join-Up with her and a couple of Parelli methods, but where most horses will come and check you out when they're sick of working away from you in the round yard, she will just turn and strike, throw her head and confront you!

She's not so bad with my partner, but with me she is just an absolute terror! I don't know what to do, I've never hurt her or been over kind, the only thing I can think of is that she resents me trying to be her 'superior'! Are some horses just 'born' into the position of the Alpha mare?

I'm only 5'3" so as she's growing she's becoming scarier for me to catch... any suggestions PLEASE!

[Bebe]

Hi

It sounds like this filly has a typical case of the terrible two's.

To start with, Iwouldn't try catching her at the moment but would work on her on the ground using a halter, long leadrope and dressage whip. Work on getting her to lead correctly, her head at your shoulder (I prefer shoulder to shoulder personally). She stops when you stop, walks when you walk, turns when you turn. May take a while to get there but keep at it. The whip is there simply to keep her out of your space, if she barges you, use the handle to bump her in the chest or to use the whip as an extension of your arm to ask her to move out of your space. If necessary you can touch her with it but it isn't there to hit her with.

Also, work with her to get her to the point of where she will allow you to touch her all over with no objections. Start slowly and take it at her pace but don't back off to the point of where you let her dictate what you can and can't touch.

Once you can get her to do all of the above from just a movement of your body, a word or any other cue you decide to use, then go back out into the field and work on catching her.

All the above is designed to get her to trust you, and you to trust her. When done correctly it also teaches her that she should look to you for what to do rather than make that decision herself.

Once you can do all of this, then take her out in the field and have a go at catching her. (You can do this without all the preparatory work but it sounds like you've already tried it so the above work may be the thing that makes a difference). You may need to leave a whole day free but you have to keep at it until you catch her. If it makes it easier, remove all other horses from the field. Now, walk up to her shoulder with a non-aggressive posture (rounded shoulders, cast-down eyes, curled fingers). If she lets you touch her, fantastic, pet her and leave - come back later and try again. If she moves off, take up an aggressive posture (stand tall, throw your shoulders back and make hard eye contact). Make her keep moving for as long as it takes. Similar to join-up but you don't want the horse to run, keep it to a walk (usually called walking down). It may take 2 minutes, may take 2 hours but keep her moving. Once she starts to lick and chew or any of the other signs of join-up, she can stand and you approach her again. Repeat until she lets you catch her. When you do catch her, give her a scratch, treat, etc and let her go.

You may need to do this repeatedly, or you may have done it already, but its the one surefire way I've found of re-training a difficult to catch horse (used to ride one who would chase around the field for half an hour, you'd then catch him and he'd race around the field for another half hour with you in tow, this worked with him). The trick is to be persistent, stay calm and make being caught a nice experience.

Hope you can solve the problem.
Amanda

[katyptaty]

Hi

i would re-iterate everything that amanda has said. very sound advice. she will now be feeding off your growing fear and seems to have no idea about social interaction and horse 'conversation'. it's the same with a friend of mine who has a 4 year old who is MASSIVE and full of beans, with no respect for personal space of other horses or people.... she is only about 5'3'' too..... so you are not alone!

take a look at clicker training or at least the theory of it - positive re-inforcement, meaning praise for good behaviour, nothing for bad behaviour. Company Of Horses are the UK's clicker trainers and have been very helpful to me in the past. Clicker training has been around for 30 years or so and is used to train dolphins, donkeys, dogs etc. It allows you to 'speak' a language the animal understands by actions, hence letting them know what is acceptable behaviour and what you expect from them. maybe email emma. i am sure that she will be pleased to offer advice.

Company of Horses
Turpins
Thorndon Cross
Okehampton
Devon
EX20 4NF

Office Tel 01837 861 154
Mobile number 07775 657 424


Ben-Emma@companyofhorses.com

http://www.companyofhorses.com./

definately try approaching in the field... making much of her when you get near her, then leave her. Maybe even sit in the field so that she gets used to you being there.

good luck! i am sure that she will soon come round with a little more training. These babies just don't know their own strength!

[floppy]

TTEAM..
i have this book about trianing icelandics from foals and training them should they come from iceland and they use TTEam methods which show you numerous ways to trian the horse to be caught.

[Desiree]

I have done all the trust exercises prescribed to me by a friend skilled in Parelli and they are pretty much identical to your suggestions!

She is perfect once you have her, she will walk with you, stop on command, does her trackwork like an old horse and is fine with grooming - she will let you all over her, pick up her legs, shoes wonderfully - like I said she's very smart. And in the day paddock she's very easy to catch because she knows when she comes in we feed her.

In the yard, it's a different story. When catching her, I take the submissive stance but she just runs up and down her yard, pretending she doesn't notice me - stops to pick at grass and turns and trots away when I get near, but the more I persist the more aggressive she gets. In the end I cant be in with her unless I'm standing on the side rail! My partner has a little trouble on the odd occasion but generally she is good with him to catch. He is also the one who works her in trackwork.

My friend suggested that because she's so strong of will and she's gotten to trust me so much that now she considers me a subordinate and therefore me trying to get close is an act of insubordination that would be returned with agression in the herd situation (she did spend her time as a weanling and earling yearling in the paddock with a couple of old ponies and a few other young ones). I'm begining to think she may be right...

My partner has also suggested that when she is aggressive, to respond in kind - rush her and throw my arms up to try and regain some equality... This sounds logical (she's not the type of horse to take fright at anything)

Any response to these suggestions? (Thank you all for your previous advice!):)

[Bebe]

Sounds like your partner is right, she thinks she's your boss and as such, ignores you when you ask her things. May be time to get more aggressive (in horsy terms at least) and start demanding that she does things.

I agree with your partners suggestion to respond in kind when she gets aggressive, especially if she invades your space.

Watch her carefully when you work her, she may be asserting her dominance over you in tiny ways that you aren't noticing, doing things that you would ignore or not even realise another horse does. Watch for her invading your space slightly (pretend you have a bubble around you and don't let her in unless invited), hesitation when asked to do something, putting her head high and trying to intimidate you, etc. If you notice her doing these things, knock them on the head straightaway - push her out of your space very firmly, demand that she does what you ask now, not 3 strides/seconds later, etc. She's probably the kind of mare that will keep testing to make sure you are on your toes.

I'd suggest taking a whip into the yard with you and when you have to get more aggressive in order to catch her, and she gets aggressive back and kicks out, threatens to bite or whatever, use it! You will only need to use it once but the message will be there. A more dominant horse would not let a youngster behave towards them in this way, you shouldn't either.

I dislike hitting horses but resorted to it once with my mare when I first got her. She was very defensive over food and would chase off the pony she shared a field with, knocking me over in the process once. After several weeks I resorted to taking a crop in with me and when she charged over to get her food, and attempted to shoulder barge me, I hit her on the chest with it. She had a thick winter rug on so there was more noise than anything but she has never charged since and just yesterday I fed her a feed in the middle of the field with 3 other horses (I wouldn't normally but she's lame and couldn't make it out of the field) and she didn't even **** an ear at the others. I can also lead her on a headcollar with the leadrope in one hand and feed bucket in the other, she may look at the bucket but I only have to say "no" or "manners" and she continues on her way.

Good luck, sounds like this mare is feisty (the best ones always are!).

Amanda

[ros]

The food idea is one I've used a couple of times and works very well, but I wasn't going to suggest it immediately.

If you've got a situation where the filly thinks she's boss, you obviously need to establish that she isn't. It certainly doesn't sound as though she's at all untrusting, since defensive behaviour usually involves turning away rather than coming at you full on - that's just plain naughty.

I don't particularly like hitting horses, especially youngsters, but I think Amanda's right. If she's scaring you on purpose, you have every right to be aggressive back, just as an older horse would. With naughty behaviour like this you can do one of two things - ignore it or retaliate. It's up to you to judge, and if you think ignoring her isn't safe you must retaliate.

If I were in your position I'd have the filly in a field or some large space (I don't think a round pen is big enough or natural), with me and a bucket of feed and a lunge whip in the middle. I'd make sure she knew I had the feed.

If she stays away, fine. Walk around, carrying the bucket, let her see it. If she follows, fine. But the minute she tries to take the feed from me I growl and send her away with my voice, and if she doesn't take any notice I get much bigger and spread my arms and claws (yes, shades of Monty!) and move sharply towards her, and if she still doesn't back off, or if she tries to threaten me, she gets a smack on the chest or bottom or whatever bit happens to be handy that won't do any damage. And we carry on like this until I can walk right up to her with that bucket and tell her to back off and she damn well does! She needs to know it's my feed and she's b------ well not having it. Now I'M the boss.

I like it because even baby horses understand that food is important and will be guarded. I don't send her away for no good reason, and I don't threaten her unless she breaks the rules, and she doesn't blame me for guarding my bucket.

[floppy]

in this article i just read it says you have to make being caught fun. Not to just catch the horse everytime and make it work or learn new thigns but inbetweeen to catch just to feed a bucket with a bit of grain in or a few carrots and just go for a little walk or give it a groom or something...just thgouth i would share that with you :)
but the most effective food is carrots or grain in a bucket ebcause carrots make a soudn when you snap them in half and grain makes a sound in a bucket...

[Desiree]

Thank you for your wonderful responses! I will see her tomorrow and try out a few of your suggestions...

I think your right too about the good ones having attitude - we have a gelding in our stable who has just turned four and is already a multiple Group One winner, and he knows it! He isn't nasty, in fact he's a big sook at times, but if he wants to go left, we go left! If he wants food, he lets us know about it!

I hope this means the filly will be as good as she's showing herself to be in trackwork!

We get a new filly on Monday who is apparently a handful - yet another challenge! I'll keep you posted with my *hopefully* successful progress!

PS her name is Dainty - in stature, but certainly not by nature!;)

[AndaCroy]

My sujestion would be to go out to the pasture and wait around, then when she decided to come to you make her go away and don't let her come to you untill she shows signs of respect to you. Good Luck -AManda

[Desiree]

Dainty has conceeded!

All it took was one day of hard work and she was mine...

My partner caught her and took her into the round yard, I went in with my lunge whip and free lunged her for about fifty minutes.
At the begining she kept stopping and wasn't taking any notice of me, then when I insisted she work, she came at me with both front feet - after which I cracked the whip above her head and she sort of stopped and went 'what the hell was that'.

She went back to working off the near leg for a couple of rounds and then decided she was jack of it again, and as she turned to come in and get agressive I cracked it again, and waked rapidly toward her hind quarters, and she quickly got moving again.

After that she worked like a dream with out having to crack the whip again and if she looked like stopping, I'd walk quickly at her and she'd get going again. She still turns toward me every now and then when she's running and gives me that " I'm really not happy with you" look but a quick "Don't give me that" and she goes back to it.

After we'd finished, I turned my back and she walked straight up to me, I led her out to her paddock and has been fine with me since, both catching her and working her...

I think I might have been trying too hard not to be hard on her and she took advantage of it. Now she seems to have some respect because she recognises that I'm one of her "bosses"...

She's out in the paddock at the moment cos she got a cold, but we bring her back in on Saturday.

Thank you for your suggestions, everyone...

[katyptaty]

how fantastic!

as you say, it sounds like there was no respect there before.
It's very easy to be lenient on horses as we don't want to 'spoil' them but sometimes reasserting your authority works (despite the fact there is supposed to be a 50/50 relationship between horse and handler). this would happen in a herd situation and in the field so as long as this assertion is done correctly, the horse will quickly learn appropriate behaviour around you!

bet you find yourself wanting to deal with her all the time now, just cos you can! i would!

brilliant

[B W]

Well Desiree: Sounds like joining up really worked for you and your mare. I've written lots of things on NR about joining up because I think it is so wonderful. There have been those that don't think too much of it but in your case it was necessary for safety for you and the horse. Your mare is VERY smart so it was difficult for her to give up her alpha mare position to you. She will probably always need a confident rider. When I started reading your first post and saw where she was striking out, I thought of a saddlebred at my barn that was doing that. She is very young and the trainer worked with her for 3 months and then sent her out to pasture to be brought back in 6 months for more of the same. You are bringing your horse along slowly which is great. Keep up the "boss mare" thing.

[fizz21]

I hope your fillys cold goes away

Can I please see a pic of her

[lleeaannee]

Your message sounded so much like the attitude of William. He has in the past been described as evil! But he's not, he'd just never had any boundaries set. I hate to say but eventually I lost my temper with him. He had a habit of biting kicking and barging. One day he kicked me so I bloody well kicked him back - hard! He sometimes has a go still but nowhere near as seriously as before. I have also joined up with him recently. I was reluctant to do it at first because we have no round pen and I hadn't done it before. In the end i thought i'd give it a go and fenced of some of his field with electric fencing. It took longer than the books say but in the end it worked and the feeing was fantastic!!

Oh and by the was William is a little over 11h!!

He's (almost) an angel now and even my 10 year old cousin can bring him in from the field now.

Here's the little devil!!

[Desiree]

Hi everyone

I managed to get hold of a Parelli video and started the seven games with her, and it worked like a dream. Now she comes to me in the yards or paddock, lunges around and over and through things, she's really responsive.

We turned her out just before Christmas and just bought her back in. Unfortunately, she went lame. We checked her out and found a small abcess which we drained, but she didnt get any better, so our farrier had a look and she had one the size of a golf ball under her frog.

So now she has very little frog left , but it's growing back quickly and she's walking a lot better. The vet says she'll be back in work in about a fortnight. Until then, we're going to swim her on a bungee to get her fitness up.

I can't seem to attach a photo, but if you can send me your email address, I'll post ya some of her and our other SB colt - he's gorgeous.


Cheers
Desiree