How would you feel?

[Shiny McShine]

I was just wondering how you would feel and what you would do in the following situation.

Your horse goes lame and you call the vet out, a very young vet attends to your horse and quickly diagnoses the problem and tries to treat it. You don't feel confident about the diagnosis so you call out a different vet (from same vet surgery) who treats the problem differently, and you are happy with what they have done but they won't comment on what was done by the other vet.

The next day your horse can't bear weight on the leg at all, lies down and struggles to get up, is depressed and won't eat. Vet advises you take the horse into the surgery for x-rays. On veterinary inspection they tell you your horse has a 50-50 chance of recovery....

[intouch]

I'd give the vet a 50/50 chance............ Sounds bad, more info required. :mad:

[LMS]

I agree, we need more info here.
Sounds like: the first vet is new & lacks field experience, vet schools are always up to date & the second vet has field experience but may have missed new info.

When my mare almost died last year, the first vet said it was guttural pouch mycosis (fungal infection of the pouch). 4 weeks later his partner came and disagreed with the diagnosis and claimed it was a guttural pouch empyema (bacterial infection of the pouch).
I spoke with both vets and told them to come to a conclusion & be upfront with me because that was nonsense!
Ended up the first diagnosis was the correct one as it was confirmed after going to the veterinary university for a thorough exam.

Please don't be shy & talk to both vets and let them both know you're concerned by their different diagnosies. You need to make an educated decision and they need to present their cases to you very thoroughly in order for you to come to one.

LMS

[MissFliss]

Oh, Shiney, that sounds awful! Is it your boy who is in the hospital? I'd feel gutted!

How different were the two vets treatment? How invasive were the procedures? I'd be concerned if they were radically different and involved different medication/surgery etc.

The good thing about the horse being in hospital is that often the medical staff will work as a team, thus the diagnosis can be better.

Best of luck,

MissFliss

[Shiny McShine]

The horse in question isn't mine, but I am very concerned as the owner is my best friend. The horse is a 15 year old mare.

Initially the horse was mildly lame, still walking on the leg but obviously had quite severe pain in the hoof when palpatated. The vet that first viewed her immediately suggested it was an absess and dug a hole in the sole of the hoof in order to let it drain (despite the fact she never saw any signs or pus, she insisted it would drain out). We were told to poultice the foot to draw out the abcess which we did. We both felt uncomfortable about the manner of the vet and what she did, but figuring we knew no better about the situation than her... we went with it.

3 days later I find the horse is unable to bear weight on the leg. My friend's father happens to be a vet, but he is no longer involved in general practice and is very busy. He managed to have a look at her, and thought that the small hole dug by this vet had done more harm than good, he suspected that the initial lameness was a stone bruise, but it had developed into an abcess as a result of the probing.

We call out another vet (the owner of the surgery, because we do not want the young vet again, and no one else is available). He does exactly what my friend's father suggested, we feel more satisfied that she should recover, with the vet advising that she should improve within the next couple of days.

However, the very next day my friend discovers that her horse is in distress, is advised to send her in to the clinic and gets the 50-50 prognosis, with the vet thinking that she has an infection in the pedal bone.

Knowing very little about such problems as I have always been blessed with healthy animals I don't know what to think. :(

[KarinUS]

Could it have been an infection of the pedal bone from the start and neither the abcess nor the stone bruise diagnosis was correct?
If so then blaming the young vet won't do you any good.
If it was my horse I just would be devastated and see what kind of treatment options are available. There's not much else to do, right?
I would probably focus my energy on doing what I can to get my horse better rather than waste too much time seeking blame. Abscesses and stone bruises are just a heck of a lot more common than infections of the pedal bone. I am not surprised both vets assumed more likely explanations while the horse was still just slightly lame. Similar symptoms have turned out to be an abscess in my experience.

I hope the horse will get better soon. :) How is infected pedal bone treated?

[LMS]

Oh my! Not good!
I know one cannot turn back time but one can learn from it.
If I'd been in this situation, I would not have let this young vet do the procedure without my farrier's input and an x-ray.
Both professionals have a different view and along with the x-ray you then come up with a course of action.

Unfortunatly for this vet, now that the two seasoned vets have been involved, this young one has put himself between a rock & a hard place (along with the rest of his faculty).

Does your friend (horse) have insurance? She may need to report this incidence to the vet. school's board.

I really hope her horse pulls through.
LMS

[Naturally]

Hi Shiny,
Fistly, can you get an Equine Vet, as opposed to a regular all round vet? (or maybe you have, I don't know)

Secondly, When my horse was diagnosed with acute colic he was give only a 50/50 chance of recovery IF I could get him the 4 hours drive to surgery. The vet thought I had no chance of getting him on the float, but I knew I could....and so we did.

We made the trip and I was then told he only had about 20% chance, but I had come this far and decided to take it.

In surgery I was told that he probably only had about 5% chance of surviving if we bought him out of the surgery, we took it. Sadly he died a few hours later, but it was worth the shot and I got to say good bye to him alive rather than on the table.

The bottom line for me was.... a) I did everything I possibly could b) I took him to the most experienced equine vet hospital I could c) I gave him every chance I could to make it. As devistated as I was at losing him (still am) I know that I left no stone unturned and I am glad for that.

I don't know if that helps, but for me, as long as I did the best I possibly could then it had to be enough.

Good luck to you and your friends.

[LMS]

Hi Shiny,
The bottom line for me was.... a) I did everything I possibly could b) I took him to the most experienced equine vet hospital I could c) I gave him every chance I could to make it. As devistated as I was at losing him (still am) I know that I left no stone unturned and I am glad for that.

I don't know if that helps, but for me, as long as I did the best I possibly could then it had to be enough.

Same here.

LMS

[Shiny McShine]

Karin, Yes you are quite right, however I'm not trying to place blame. I am only saying that we felt uncomfortable with what the first vet did, and as a result, if anything I blame myself for not stepping in and saying something. As I am no veterinary expert I had no idea, and still don't know whether any of the action/diagnosis taken by ANYONE involved here was or was not correct. I was just trying to convey the situation and I am upset right now.

I don't think my friend has insurance and I don't know what she is going to do, but I know how awful she will be feeling right now. I'm waiting to hear the result today, as she was in there last night.

All the vets we had out were equine vets. I'm hoping it's not too serious, I'm not even sure what the real diagnosis is yet. They thought it was an infected pedal bone, but still waiting to see what the x-rays show up.

Fingers crossed for Silver to pull through.

[KarinUS]

Karin, I'm not trying to place blame. I was just trying to convey the situation and I am upset right now.


I understand. :( Not a good situation to be in. I can only speak for myself but it usually makes me feel better when I focus on taking action and trying to resolve things rather than wonder about 'what ifs', etc. I would be very, very upset, too.

Let us know what the prognosis/treatment is. I actually am not too thrilled about either one of the vets if they tell you the chances are 50/50 before they even see the x-rays or have properly diagnosed what it is. Terrible bedside manner (if equine vets can have bedside manners?!)

[mayS]

i think it's ok to be upset but it's not ok to blame everythign that went wrong on the one vet.

I am not a vet, but I do try to learn what I can. From what I know, it is not unheard of for an abcess to form from a stone bruise. Digging the abcess out IS the best way to handle it in the foot.

Out of curiosity, how did the vet determine the pain was from an abcess inside the hoof capsule? Did he do any nerve blocks? Or other tests?

I'm sorry the problem was more severe and the pedal bone was affected... however I don't think the bone infection appeared literally overnight or was caused by a vet doing a normal probing for an abcess.

You've got to understand sometimes horses do go lame. Sometimes they suddenly do fall unexpectly ill. Sometimes within a few days a horse goes from being healthy looking to needing a costly surgery. And with any surgery there are risks, both during the surgery and afterwards.

I really am sorry your friend's horse is so sick and needs surgery.... but try to focus your energies on positive things and not hating a particular vet because of a gut feeling.

[jumper-4-joy]

Maybe their diagnoses were slightly different, and they used medications that didn't react well with each other, causung pain.

[Shiny McShine]

Well, I went in and visited Silver at hospital yesterday, she seems to be doing better, thankfully!

They x-rayed the foot and found that the pedal bone was shattered! When the vets operated to clean it out they were amazed that she had only just started becoming distressed, as she had obviously had the broken bone for over a week! We always knew she was tough but not that tough!

So it was neither stone bruise, nor abcess! The vet surgery did confirm that the young vet we got out first should have been more thorough, and that if she had have realised the problem before she went probing then the infection could have been averted, but because it was an unusual situation, as horses with such an injury will exhibit a lot more distress from such injuries she couldn't have known better, and only the most experienced vet probably would have picked up on it.

Poor Silver is pretty depressed, she is not a stable animal (she lived out semi-wild for the first 6 years of her life), but she still managed to down a carrot :). She will have to stay in the stable at the vets for the next week or so, and has been fitted with a plate/shoe to hold the foot together and keep the area clean.

She had knots in her gaskins from holding all her weight on her back end for the past 3-4 days, so we gave them a massage, and she was very content with that! She can put weight on the problem foot now, but can't walk on it yet obviously.

We don't know yet whether she will ever be ridden again, but that is the least of anyones concerns, we are just over-joyed that she is still with us. It will still be touch and go for a while, but there is hope. Provided the antibiotics work and the foot stays clean so it can all heal up then she should be fine!

[claire hodgson]

blimey, how awful.

Glad the horse is doing better.

I think this is always the problem with horses (or, indeed, people) who bear pain better than others; the 'wimps' are more likely to get diagnosed and treated quicker than the 'stoics'. Also, of course, as others have said, bruising/abcess are more likely diagnoses that a shattered pedal bone ... Poor girl!

[Big Ears]

Rosie went lame in April 2004 and was holding up her front hoof typical of an abscess. Vet came out next day, poulticed for one week, still lame, tried nerve block, isolated it to below fetlock. Was concerned it could be the pedal bone. Took her in for x rays and turned out to be laminitis, in one then in both front feet. However, of course, with her not being immobilised we probably did more harm to the laminitis as her symptoms were more like an abscess. just bad luck.

Big Ears donkey died of colic - found her 8am vet out at 830, in hospital 10=1030, in surgery 1230 onwards, brought her out of surgery but had to be pts that night. If I had known how much she suffered post operative, I would have had her pts at home - she suffered so much as donkeys are so stoic about pain, by the time they show symptoms they are far gone. Poor love.

[LMS]

I wish Silver, your friend and you all the best. Sliver sounds like a trooper, she deserves all your encouragement.

Good luck,
LMS