Pedal Bone Rotation & Barefoot

[Bay Mare]

My friends' horse has been diagnosed with a 5 degree pedal bone rotation. He has been intermittently lame for some time now and is now on box rest with a view to shoeing him in heart bar shoes when the vet is happy for him to start working again. I am assuming (though partly sceptical) that this is a correct diagnosis.

Can anyone on here tell me how a barefoot EP would approach this? I haven't seen him (though am hoping to go and have a look when I get some time) so can't comment myself and am not really experienced enough anyway to make a proper judgement.

Has anyone gone through this with their horse?

I've recommended barefoot to her but don't know enough myself to explain things to her. She's naturally more inclined to follow the vet's advice but I'm trying to get as much info and advice as I can for her. I've already posted on EE. I'm worried (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing :) ) that she's going to end up either with a field ornament or without a horse at all if she keeps on following conventional advice. Thankfully she's insured as she's had so many vets out and investigations done, he even went away to be checked out and nothing concrete ever came of it and now they've come up with this!

Ta x

[MelanieD]

I'm not an EP, just a total hoof anorak who spends far too much time reading, so could be talking rubbish but here's a few random things I can remember.

Pedal bone isn't really rotated as it's still at the end of the leg where it should be, it's the hoof capsule that has rotated relative to the pedal bone, caused by the attachment at the laminae being destroyed. Some farriers apparently try to leave the heels high to try to re-align the pedal bone, totally cr*p idea which doesn't work, new connection has to grow in from the top and leaving the heels high just causes more pressure at the tip of the pedal bone against the sole.

I think an EP would just do the usual trim, live sole plane etc, though some of the markers they trim to can be a bit more difficult in laminitis cases so some stuff comes down to experience. Pretty sure the toes get rolled more than usual to stop the old damage pulling on the new growth, there's a laminar wedge with healthy inner wall growing behind it so can take much more off the toe after the new healthy inner wall has had some time to grow in than you'd be able to take off a normal foot.

Very likely to need to use sole mate pads, think in some cases it's better to cut an area out of them around the end of the pedal bone so that they support the rest of the foot without putting pressure there. Can be left on for up to 72 hours at a time in bad cases.

Diet needs dealing with, get rid of all sugary stuff, molassed feed, carrots, rich grass etc.

If there's a digital pulse then keep the horse still (box rest), and for 3 days after the pulse is gone. After that movement is good, possibly with sole mates on, but don't force them to move, should be moving around without any bute as they may do more damage if they can't feel pain and know it's a good idea not to do too much.

Usually the new hoof will grow down properly attached to the laminae so effectively cure the rotation. Won't see concavity until the 'new' hoof has grown down quite far. There are some pics of horse with more rotation than 5 degrees that have been de-rotated at www.hoofrehab.com.

[Gill]

I think Melanie has said it all really, and given the best possible weblink to find good info.

My pony had quite bad laminitis a couple of years ago and was brought back to soundness with good hoof care and trimming. You need lots of patience as the new hoof grows down! The pony grows a good looking hoof then the next year grows an even better tighter one. My vet was rather unsure but is coming round to the barefoot view and even talking about taking the shoes off her little driving pony this winter.

Heartbars? I'm inclined to think that the hooves will never really heal if these go on. The pony might seem sound but the problem will not go away long term. Then I am no expert.

[Bay Mare]

Heartbars? I'm inclined to think that the hooves will never really heal if these go on. The pony might seem sound but the problem will not go away long term. Then I am no expert.

Yes, that's what I was thinking and why I'm worried for her.

Oh, and, sorry, forgot to say that he isn't laminitic and hasn't had laminitis if that makes a difference to the treatment!

[chev]

A friend of mine has a cob mare whose pedal bone rotated as a result of laminitis. Heartbars did make a huge difference to her; but she had over 12 degrees of rotation, and thin soles, so the shoes were used to relieve pressure on the sole which was causing a lot of discomfort. Leaving her barefoot made her very uncomfortable.

Her recovery was fairly slow; she had the shoes on until she stayed sound without, and then she went back to being barefoot again. Once barefoot she made faster progress.

[Jessey]

All of the above :D but another way to explain the comparison is: if you look at the foot, the bearing/contact area is almost just the same to a heart bar shoe (round the wall and down the frog), so barefoot and heart bar will have similar effects BUT when you put a shoe on, using nails you put weak points into the hoof wall and open it to minor infections etc, where as barefoot, gives the nec. bearing area to encourage good growth without encouraging any other problems.

That is in very simple terms but it might help your friend understand enough to want to learn more ;) :D (and I'm not saying that anyone needs it explained in simple terms its just that sometimes we get all to technical about these things and can loose the point if we are not all up to speed on the goble-di-gook terms :p )

J x

[eventerbabe]

my Bonnie has 5-7 degrees pedal bone rotation and NO way ON EARTH would i allow her to go barefoot. she's my second laminitic pony, and neither of them could bare to walk without shoes on. if your friend really does want to go barefoot then the kindest way to do things would be to put on heart bars until fully recovered then take it from there as chev's friend did. might be worth contacting the laminitis clinic about this aswell as they are the experts and can advise much better than most vets can.

Heartbars? I'm inclined to think that the hooves will never really heal if these go on. The pony might seem sound but the problem will not go away long term. Then I am no expert.
Come and visit my pony then :) . she has been on heart bars for about 9 months now (and barefoot behind), 100% sound, pedal bone realigned and she's enjoying life and getting back into work. it was difficult when we were coping with the poor growth produced during her laminitis attack but to cope with that my farrier was coming every 2 weeks at one point to re-shoe her and take off that little bit more growth. within 6 months we had 'grown out' the poor laminitic hoof and she's now back to good, solid hoof wall and her feet are looking better than ever. leaving them barefoot when growing out this damaged hoof would be a major concern to me as it just falls off. bonnie would lose nearly half her hoof if she lost a shoe as the foot just crumbled. i will admit that i was hesitant to put her on heart bars but they aren't long term, just til she's 100% back to work and then we can experiment with other things :) we were recomended to try Imprint shoes (plastic ones that glue on) but they do not work and i wouldn't recomend anyone waste their money on them. cost us £250 for 2 front heart bars and they fell off within 3 weeks :mad:

I'm worried (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ) that she's going to end up either with a field ornament or without a horse at all if she keeps on following conventional advice.
can i just ask what's wrong with 'conventional' advice? it saved my pony's life and i have 100% faith in it. if your friend is at all concerned about what her vets are saying then get in touch with robert eustace (www.laminitis.org). they even have an x-ray referal service for rotation/fonder and he will recomend a treatment plan.
EDIT: just read this thread again. can i just say IF a digital pulse is present then the horse must be box rested with frog supports (buy them from equilife or i can tell you how to make some yourself ;) ). medication is bute, ACP and asprin. ACP and asprin help restore blood flow to the feet. its not wise to leave a horse unmedicated as the pain can stress them and (a) make them very depressed and (b) make the laminitis a million times worse. once horse is sound and off frog supports and meds they then need a further 30 days box resting and only then can you think about turn out. during the 30 days box rest, they are generally left barefoot and just lightly trimmed.

[MelanieD]

Many laminitic horses do recover barefoot, and very well. There's a lot more to it than just taking the shoes off, the trim has to be right and if they aren't comfortable even on soft ground then you need to use pads, and it's a good idea to use them even if comfortable on soft ground. Even many farriers and vets think the right thing to do for a laminitic is to take the shoes off and use frog supports (Sole mates with the pedal bone tip area cut out can be used as an alternative).

Heartbars can help as long as they are done right, trim must be balanced and no leaving the heels high, the frog support part must actually do something, reapplied regularly and with a plan to go back to normal shoes/no shoes eventually. Bar shoes aren't great for the overall health of the feet so wouldn't want them as a long term solution. Heartbars done badly are pretty useless so need to make sure the farrier is a remedial farrier who really knows what he's doing.

The traditional approach keeps them in for 30 days to try to not cause further damage to the laminae from movement. The barefoot approach lets them out sooner after the digital pulse is gone because movement encourages the feet to grow and recover more quickly. It's important that they don't have bute when let out as then they won't hooley around and do damage as they can feel how much is too much. It's a judgement call when to let out and when to bute (but turned out on bute too soon could never be a good thing) and not everyone agrees on the best way. Barefoot approach wouldn't withhold bute while there's active lami (pulse etc) the horse is in so not moving around and the pain is bad.

I'd prefer the barefoot and faffing about with solemate pads approach as the hoof wall grows so much faster barefoot, especially with pads, so time taken to grow in a 'new' foot and recover is much quicker. Plus you aren't nailing into an already damaged hoof with a white line that's open to infection.

A bad attack of laminitis will leave a laminitic wedge, with new healthy inner wall growing in behind it. Once that inner wall has had some time to develop (not sure that it would do very well with shoes on, inner wall is generally thin in shod horses) then it's not too much of a problem if the old damaged wall lower down chips off.

Barefoot and heart bars aren't similar. Heartbars do at least give frog pressure if done right but a bar shoe imobilises the foot more than a normal shoe which isn't good, and the pressures on the hoof wall aren't the same, weight is carried on the outer wall, not inner wall when when shod.

Rotation without laminitis sounds a bit suspicious. Either there has been some non-dietary form of laminitis, or there's something wrong with the trimming causing the pedal bone to appear rotated, either a lot of flaring, very high heels or both. A good vet should be able to tell the difference between that kind of thing and true rotation but conversations with some vets around here make me suspicious that some don't have a clue about feet.

If it's some form of mechanical laminitis then advice should be pretty much the same, but might get away with being a little less strict with the diet eventually. If it's just high heels/flaring/bad trimming then getting an EP to have a look would be the best thing, or at least change farrier.

[Bay Mare]

Many laminitic horses do recover barefoot, and very well. There's a lot more to it than just taking the shoes off, the trim has to be right and if they aren't comfortable even on soft ground then you need to use pads, and it's a good idea to use them even if comfortable on soft ground.

Thank you Melanie, you put it a lot better than I could :) Having seen Saff through her 'pasture' trim and her 'HP' trim I can say that there is a world of a difference between the two. Even though she had her backs off (pasture trim) for many months before I took her 'properly' barefoot, there weren't half the changes in her feet that have occurred since she's been having a HPT.

can i just ask what's wrong with 'conventional' advice? it saved my pony's life and i have 100% faith in it.

I am glad that you were happy with conventional advice and I am glad that it worked for your pony but I have worked in (human) healthcare long enough to know that you can't blindly accept something just because it's conventional. Although the Laminitis Trust is a very worthy organisation they aren't, as yet, open to the barefoot philosophy. I firmly believe that they should research barefoot more thoroughly (they've obviously gone :eek: at Strasser and I can't help but feel that they're lumping all barefoot into one box) even if they find out that it isn't the way to go in the long run. The more I learn about barefoot (I'm not including Strasser which I don't agree with) the more I believe that conventional 'wisdom' needs to be challenged.

Apart from the fact that I believe that shoes and farriers aren't the ONLY (or necessarily the best) way to go, the fact is that the vets and farriers have been messing her and her horse around for far too long. I only want to give her ALL of the options to do with what she feels best. I know that if he were my horse I would have an EP out to have a look and give their verdict.

Thank you for your replies, I'd love to hear more especially if you've got experience in barefoot and 'pedal bone rotation' :)

[Bay Mare]

Rotation without laminitis sounds a bit suspicious. Either there has been some non-dietary form of laminitis, or there's something wrong with the trimming causing the pedal bone to appear rotated, either a lot of flaring, very high heels or both. A good vet should be able to tell the difference between that kind of thing and true rotation but conversations with some vets around here make me suspicious that some don't have a clue about feet.

Mmmm .... I was wondering about that. I'm meeting up with her next week so will try and find out more. I never thought to ask who her farrier is (duh) ... must do that!

[shandy84]

All I can say is that my OH has come across a number of cases where people with laminitic horses and ponies which have been seen to by an EP and he was so absolutly disgusted by the work done and the mentally some of these practitioners have. If you have pedal bone rotation from my OH's own experience barefoot is not always the kindest way for your horse.

Yu may end up with a sound horse but when the foot crumbles they will be in a lot more pain as they already have the laminitus to cope with you also have to take into account that most shod horses are lame after having shoes pulled when there is nothing wrong with them, how is it right to add more pain to a horses life, personally I would go 100% with the vet, mine is a very open minded vet and has suggested a lot of homeopathic and non conventional treatments for us so if he told me something was best for my horse I would do it.

I cannot see why easing the horses pain by putting the shoes on while in recovery and then exploring barefoot options when he is sound is such a bad idea, I honestly feel it would be kinder on the horse due to the extra pain not shoeing him would cause

[Yann]

most shod horses are lame after having shoes pulled

I'm no hoof anorak, but that's simply not true, not in my experience anyway. They might find rough surfaces more difficult, but their action can actually improve with the shoes off.

Why will the foot crumble? The only sure way to improve the health of a poor foot, if the horse or its circumstances can manage it, is to take the shoes off and allow it to function fully without the restriction imposed by the shoe. I've seen this happen myself with more than one horse, and any farrier worth their salt with tell you the same thing. As far as I can see the main thing with a laminitic is to minimise the risk of recurrence by tackling dietary issues, and then encouraging the new attached hoof wall to grow down and stay attached by tackling any infection and the shear forces caused by the flaring hoof wall at the toe. If this can comfortably be acheived with the shoes off then it's likely to happen more quickly. The extra stimulation will improve the blood flow in the foot and encourage the sole to thicken and provide more support to the pedal bone. But the comfort of the horse should be the paramount consideration.

[shandy84]

In my OH's experience which is a huge amount, the majority of horses that have their shoes pulled are footsy and may be lame for a week at least if they have more severe feet problems then longer.

The earlier comment of farriers leaving heels long on laminitics is incorrect, it is actually the farriers aim to bring the heels a bit lower and bring the toe in.

The majority of horses have their feet crumble up to the nail holes at least, in a laminitic because you already have hoof damage you risk more breaking than with a healthy foot being left barefoot.

"if the horse or its circumstances can manage it, is to take the shoes off and allow it to function fully without the restriction imposed by the shoe."
I never said I disagreed with this just that I felt it was in the horses bect interests to be pain free before this was attempted as it could make him more uncomfortable than he is already.

"and any farrier worth their salt with tell you the same thing"
If thats a dig then it missed as I said I don't have a problem with barefoot but feel the horse should be pain free in the feet for it not to be cruel to attempt it!

I have no peoblem in horses being barefoot I wish mine could be, I just feel that the welfare of a horse should come first and I honestly believe just in case barefoot doesn't work out for the horse, and shock horror some can't go barefoot, then it would be adding to his pain if it didn't work for him and the owner may miss the pain he feels for being the laminitus, also simple things like the vet needing a trot up to assess lameness may come back inaccurate until the feet have hardened to cope with concrete and this could all affect the horses wellbeing :(

[Yann]

But the comfort of the horse should be the paramount consideration.

Read my lips! :)

If thats a dig

Absolutely not.

My observations were based on having seen 5 different working horses at our yard have their front shoes off including my own, none went lame and at least one was certainly sounder as the shoeing job was way too short at the toe and had gone into the white line.

I'd be interested to know more about the 'disgusting' jobs by EP's on the laminitics you describe - in what way was that the case? Well trained as they might be many EP's haven't been at it that long and I'm not sure how much of the current training is actually focussed on dealing with seriously diseased feet.

Incidentally our farrier keeps Gem's heels down and trims the flare at the toe aggressively and she's 100% sound and happy.

[shandy84]

I will find out the exact details for you, the sketchy bits I remember was that they only did a tny bit of rasping and left the foot completly unbalanced, long in the toe and basically they were a state when the farrier came to look at them as the foot had collapsed. The worse bit though was that even though the animal was grossly overweight and the vet had diagnosed food related laminitus, the EP tried to say it didn't have laminitus it was just sore from poor shoeing and the horrors of putting a shoe on, they convinced the lady to take it off medication and it was not put on a diet.

Only when the laminitus became more severe did she contact her vet not knowing why - she hadn't consulted him - and he immediatly got my oh's boss out who is very well respected in veterinary farriery.

Strasser trimmers are also guilty of the same practice from what I have learned of them.

I know why people don't like shoeing horses and I don't disagree with that but I feel the training at the moment is nowhere near enough that they should be honestly allowed near a foot, farriers train for four years and have blocks at university, any mistakes and they are out, also the barefoot groups are not overseen by a regulative body, I just really wouldn't trust someone having heard too many horror stories and knowing the little amount fo training they undergo. Barefoot is better (and cheaper) if your horse can cope unfortunatly mine do too much roadwork, and Bramble has a problem with the growth that happened when her feet were forming which makes her lame on hard ground without shoes, I wish this wasn't the case.

[Alibi]

I feel the training at the moment is nowhere near enough that they should be honestly allowed near a foot, farriers train for four years and have blocks at university, any mistakes and they are out, also the barefoot groups are not overseen by a regulative body, I just really wouldn't trust someone having heard too many horror stories and knowing the little amount fo training they undergo.

How can you say that? Do you know what the training fully consists of? Have you spoken to an EP about their training and knowledge?? As my OH is undergoing the training at the moment I personally know the amount of work he having to do to become a KC La Pierre qualified EP and I think you would be very surprised. I would rather have an EP look at my horses feet than any farrier in the area.

Currently there is not a regulative body for EP's (I think there has been talk about it, but not sure what's happening a the moment) but if you or anyone hear any "horror stories" about an EP or someone acting as an EP then it can be reported to the UK Administrator justine@cwmllwchwr.eclipse.co.uk this e-mail is available on KC's website (www.equinepodiatry.net), along with KC's e-mail address.

Barefoot is better (and cheaper) if your horse can cope unfortunatly mine do too much roadwork, and Bramble has a problem with the growth that happened when her feet were forming which makes her lame on hard ground without shoes, I wish this wasn't the case.


Barefoot by a farrier is cheaper than having shoes. Barefoot by an EP is more expensive. Its £40 for the visit / trim, which to begin with is every 4 weeks, then if conditioning is done effectively by the owner and the horse does not encounter any problems in time length between visits can be extended, the end result is to get the horse to self trim and to be checked every couple of months by an EP to make sure everything is ok, then it could be said that barefoot by an EP is cheaper than shoes. The hardest part for most people is to commit to the conditioning in the first couple of weeks / month (depending on the horse). I had to walk one of mine in solemates for 20 mins a day, doesn't sound too bad but when you have to strap the pads on walk for 20 mins then take the pads off its more like an hour's time and some people just don't have the time, which is why in some cases keeping the shoes on a horse is better.

As for barefoot horses not being able to do much roadwork, mine can do 2 hours a day easily, in fact its really good for them, it trims their hooves & stimulates them to grow at the same time, I just wish I had more time to walk them out!

How about getting a qualified EP out to see if they can do anything with Brambles feet? there's a list on the website.

As for the laminitic case, I would get a EP out who is experienced with a case like this (Richard, Alun, Karin or Trevor).

[Big Ears]

Rose had laminitis from April 2004 till back in work December 2004. she was box rested for 6 weeks then turned out on sand but xrays in August showed further rotation, so back to box rest, then turn out on sand. she was x rayed in December, shoes on, back in work, she now works for 2-3 hours at walk.

She was unable to go barefoot before laminitis as she feels the stones and we are very stony hard ground here. I wouldn't even consider letting her go barefoot again unless we lived somewhere else. We tried her all four, then shoeing front only but she was too sore.

She was shod this week and her feet are perfect, no rings, good and strong growth, look like new, nothing to show she has had laminitis. She has been lucky. Best advice I got was from one vet, laminitis website and my farrier who trimmed her radically (having seen the x rays) and suggested packing her feet with shavings while she was on deep litter to give more support and never to pick the feet out while she was on box rest. Did the trick. He always kept saying, no another six weeks, she is still tender, no shoes yet just wait a bit longer.

[MelanieD]

Most shod horses aren't lame after having their shoes pulled. Any horse with healthy feet is likely to at worst be a bit ouchy on stones for a while. My horse has serious problems with her feet and was pogoing around the field sound and acting like a total idiot within a week :D If your OH is pulling shoes and trimming and then seeing every one of those horses being footy maybe he needs to modifiy the way he's trimming them? It is actually quite common for farrier trimmed horses to be footy after a trim, depends on the individual farrier of course.

Bits of foot that break off that easily aren't really up to supporting the weight of a horse anyway. I'd agree totally with lami horses needing shoes if the alternative was to take the shoes off and kick them out to hobble around in pain. With correct use of boots and sole mate pads they aren't in any pain and recover more quickly (6 months to grow a 'new' foot is typical) than if shod.

If you think farrier training and registration is so excellent explain how there are so many bl**dy awful ones around in the UK? There are some good ones, and I'd assume your OH would be one of them, but there are many rubbish ones as well. That bit I mentioned about leaving the heels high would be one of the examples of a bad farrier :rolleyes:

The work strasser trimmers and what EPs do is very very different (the only thing they have in common is lack of shoes), about as different as a farrier and a strasser trimmer. If you have the name of the EP you OH has seen several mistakes from then please report them, address in Alibi's post. Either someone is calling themselves an EP when they shouldn't or there's an EP in your area which is not behaving very well, either way needs something done about it.

[Gill]

My pony's feet did not 'crumble without shoes'. They were trimmed by my lovely, qualified farrier every couple of weeks until they could go longer between trims.

He currently has 150 barefoot horses in his care and is very straightforward and sensible, though thinks a lot about what he is doing.

Everyone must do the best for their animal, as they see it. I cannot see it as kind to nail shoes onto an already damaged foot, and my choice has been correct for us.

[chev]

Everyone must do the best for their animal, as they see it.

Exactly. A bad farrier will do far more damage than a good EP, and vice versa. What you do depends not just on the most suitable method, but also on whether or not you can find someone qualified to do that.

I try to listen to as many points of view as possible; but choices will always be limited by circumstance as well as other factors. What works for one horse in one area is not neccessarily the answer for another living elsewhere.

All of mine are barefoot and mostly manage fine; but if any of them reached a point where they managed better shod than barefoot, then I'd shoe them.

[Big Ears]

i am sure Rosie could manage barefoot if the terrain here was not so stony. We are on chalk with lots of flints and they are very ouchy. She just cannot walk on it barefoot at all, she hobbles.

I tried her for about 4 months but it was clear that she was unhappy. Molly is even worse, she just doesn't work on that ground at all well. But when I was in Scotland I used to ride an Arab highalnd cross who was never shod in his life and had really strong hard feet and never felt a thing.

[MelanieD]

i am sure Rosie could manage barefoot if the terrain here was not so stony. We are on chalk with lots of flints and they are very ouchy. She just cannot walk on it barefoot at all, she hobbles.

A barefoot trim and the right conditioning can turn a horse that can't cope with that kind of ground into one that can, and hoof boots protect the sole much better than shoes. OTOH if she's sound and happy in shoes and you are happy with her being shod then there's no reason for you to want to go barefoot. Shockingly, I don't think all horses should be barefoot :D

Situations where there's not a good trimmer or farrier that can cope with barefoot (rather than just a pasture trim) then mostly better to stick to shoes, or if the owner doesn't want to faff about with boots and conditioning work it's better to stick to shoes. I've no problem with shoes on horses that have healthy feet that just aren't up to the work their owner wants them to do, personally I'd go for conditioning and boots as much as possible but shoes can work too. Where I disagree with shoeing is leaving them on all year for years at a time, feet do adapt to shoes and while a lot of horses cope with that loads do need a break from shoes regularly to keep the feet healthy. Also, most hoof problems can be fixed more quickly with a proper barefoot trim (and appropriate conditioning work) than with shoes, some like navicular can recover to the point you'd never know the horse had it. When my horse went from one that was sound with or without shoes to one that "needed" shoes I decided it was time to get very worried about the condition of her feet.

[shandy84]

I have spoken to my OH and he has said that the cases of horses turning up lame are normally if the foot is of poor quality or if it has a condition of the feet such as laminitus. So I was wrong in my suggestion earlier :(

I don't believe the trainign is long enough nor is it overseen well enough any move to regulate the body of trimmers, would be strongly welcomed by myself and many I know. I also feel an apprenticeship scheme such as the farriers have is the only real way of gaining the true knowledge of working with a horses feet, that is in no way saying they learn nothing, just that I feel supervision by someone more experienced for a number of years is the best way to get rid of any possible problems.

Bad farriers do exist thankfully I know of only a couple locally, but at the end of the day nothing is done to stop them, owners need to clue up and the farrier body could do with coming out of the dark ages a bit and listening to their customers. I know of a local farrier who is making a move to see this happen and he has a lot of support in the area.

I personally would want a longer training period before I let an EP near my horses hooves, I will pass the link onto my OH and see if he cn send a message regarding the trimmer he delt with, apparently it wasn't a strasser trimmer although the lady had considered it at one point.

Can I ask where the difference is between a pasture trim as you call it and a barefoot trim, as I was speaking to my OH and he was interested as to the method used, he is very open minded and does not discount some trimmers are good at what they do he just worries about the repercussions when they do a less great job.

My OH will be the only person to do my ponies feet just because I honestly know he has their best interests at heart and I know that he won't beat them or be aggressive with them if they do something wrong, I am lucky in this way, if we go barefoot it would be great, I think time will tell there, but I still believe a horse in pain would be better left to recover, if there are barefoot pads the horse could wear at all times that would make it less of an issue in my mind of causing more suffering, is there anything like this?

[Big Ears]

I suppose all I know is that the vet recommended shoeing and so did the farrier, so she had special shoes post laminitis and her feet are now in excellent condition, very strong, good growth, no rings, nothing wrong with them. My farrier is extremely good, does a lot of remedial work, very patient, never rushes jobs, very good with the horses, and since he has come to me for 10 years + I have total confidence in him. Rosie is the only one who is shod as she is the only one in work, and hacks out for about 3 hours at a time. The paths round here are very rough, and I remain to be convinced that even if I took onboard how to go barefoot that she would be ok. If we were further up the countyw here it is sandy soil, and much softer, might consider it more.

[MelanieD]

I don't believe the trainign is long enough nor is it overseen well enough any move to regulate the body of trimmers

From knowing only the number of courses they do I'd be saying exactly the same. But, I was the first official customer for a newly qualified EP and I was well impressed with how much he knew and he's had a few months more experience of some quite complicated cases since then.

Bad farriers do exist thankfully I know of only a couple locally, but at the end of the day nothing is done to stop them, owners need to clue up

Agree totally, it's amazing the number of people who think their farrier does a good job because the shoes still haven't dropped off three months later :rolleyes:

I personally would want a longer training period before I let an EP near my horses hooves, I will pass the link onto my OH and see if he cn send a message regarding the trimmer he delt with, apparently it wasn't a strasser trimmer although the lady had considered it at one point.

Sorry if I'm saying something obvious here.. Is he sure it was an EP and not just a random other trimmer? EP is a specific name for someone who'se trained with KC LaPierre and quite a few people do make the mistake of thinking it's a general name for anyone who trims. If it was someone calling themselves an EP then it's well worth letting Justine know about them.

Can I ask where the difference is between a pasture trim as you call it and a barefoot trim, as I was speaking to my OH and he was interested as to the method used, he is very open minded and does not discount some trimmers are good at what they do he just worries about the repercussions when they do a less great job.

Pasture trim varies a lot but usually the worse ones don't remove flare well enough, remove too much sole and some trim too short or not short enough, depends a lot on the individual farrier but it's usually not a trim that's aimed at a working barefoot horse. A good barefoot trim is usually balanced using live sole plane (aanchp don't call it that I don't think but are using a lot of the same markers), mustang roll around the edges so weight is on inner wall not outer wall, no live sole ever removed. The trim should be pretty simple for a farrier, the biggest difference is knowing what conditioning work will improve the various structures and when boots or sole mate pads can help. There's some interesting stuff at www.hoofrehab.com and Pete Ramey has an excellent book, but is quite basic with lots of pictures, good intro to barefoot though. That's on amazon.co.uk. KC LaPierre has a book with loads of useful stuff in but isn't the easiest book ever to read, lot more technical than the Pete Ramey one. Justine sells it, the email address is in that link earlier, or I could lend you mine for the cost of postage. A farrier that can do a good barefoot trim and give advice on conditioning is usually very popular so it's well worth learning a bit about it.

...if there are barefoot pads the horse could wear at all times that would make it less of an issue in my mind of causing more suffering, is there anything like this?

There's sole mate pads, they are brilliant things, make sore horses comfortable and can even help improve feet that aren't sore. They are kind of hard black spongey things about 2cm thick that compress with the weight of the horse and distribute pressure, for a laminitics you can cut out the area around the tip of the pedal bone. They are okay to be left on for 72 hours at a time but do need some time without them to get some air to the foot to prevent softening of the soles and thrush.

[shandy84]

Thankyou for your reply. I suppose being with a farrier makes you more paranoid to the cowboys out there, there has been a local irish man going around shoeing illegally and trimming horses for people and my OH' lot are called in to clean up after his mess, it does make you worry about people who have not undergone a long apprenticeship. I still feel a governing body would be an ideal move forward for the barefoot industry.

It is horrible to see bad farriers and it is down to owners to learn a little more unfortunatly the bad farriers seem to find the novice owner as an easy target and they can only know so much, hopefully in time they will be seen off.

He was sure it was someone claiming to be an EP I will get him to mail the name to her in case it is someone being a cowboy using their name.

The information about the trim is really good thankyou, I will have a look on the site and look into getting the book, for myself as much as for him, thankfully he isn't a ridgid farrier he is willing to use my herbal remedies and go with less conventional ideas I may cook up, this would just be another thing like that which could hopefully help him become a better respected farrier.

So in theory if the horse suffered on the ground you could take them off in the stable for a little while. I must admit I didn't realise these pads were available, this does make the transition for an unwell horse to barefoot more acceptable as no more stress would be put on the horse.

Thankyou for your information, I may come across as pig headed, if you met some of the so called trimmers around here you would see why, but I am willing to learn new things and am very interested in looking at the site

[MelanieD]

Forgot to add the link for KC LaPierre's site: www.equinepodiatry.net

Sole mate pads are the brilliantest thing ever, they are on that site in the shop part (Justine sells them in the UK). As well as keeping lami horses comfortable they can be used during excercise, even if it is just walking around for 20 mins in bad cases, to get heel first landing in sore horses, help keep sore horses comfortable, great for helping weak digital cushions to develop, very useful if any part of the foot is too low and not getting enough pressure to encourage it to grow (like frog too high and overgrowing due to extra pressure while heels aren't getting enough pressure to encourage them to grow), and managed to help improve my horse's feet even though she had basically okay and comfortable feet at the time. They can be used 72 hours at a time or during turnout for really bad feet, or just for 20-30 mins excercise a day to improve feet that aren't bad enough to need them all the time.

[Yann]

It really amazes me that more farriers aren't getting in on the act rather than being defensive about the whole thing. They already know most of it, have ready access to a far wider client base and the whole thing is much cheaper to operate (no gas / forge / van etc):D

[shandy84]

Maybe it's the way that all the bumf on barefoot is so anti farrier, it doesn't really warm them to the idea :)

[eventerbabe]

It really amazes me that more farriers aren't getting in on the act rather than being defensive about the whole thing. They already know most of it, have ready access to a far wider client base and the whole thing is much cheaper to operate (no gas / forge / van etc):D
i really don't know what sort of farriers you have down south, but up here my farrier is very up to date on his barefoot research. he's coming out in 2 weeks and i will print out this thread and get his opinion on whats been discussed. i've had many discussions with him myself over articles and statements i've seen banded about on barefoot sites.

My pony's feet did not 'crumble without shoes'. They were trimmed by my lovely, qualified farrier every couple of weeks until they could go longer between trims.

He currently has 150 barefoot horses in his care and is very straightforward and sensible, though thinks a lot about what he is doing.

Everyone must do the best for their animal, as they see it. I cannot see it as kind to nail shoes onto an already damaged foot, and my choice has been correct for us.
treatment, in the end, comes down to how severe a case of laminitis it is and what advice we are given. my farrier re-shod bonnie every 2 weeks at some points to make sure she was comfortable and that we were gettign rid of all the poor growth. but its a dangerous thing to say that those of us who have followed the shoeing route are being 'unkind'. i, personally, think it is unkind to leave a horse with rotation (and hence in a lot of pain) barefoot with the bone so close to the sole. you then run the risk of degradation of the tip of the pedal bone due to there being no support or correction as is offered by heart bars.

[Bebe]

I don't believe the trainign is long enough nor is it overseen well enough any move to regulate the body of trimmers, would be strongly welcomed by myself and many I know. I also feel an apprenticeship scheme such as the farriers have is the only real way of gaining the true knowledge of working with a horses feet, that is in no way saying they learn nothing, just that I feel supervision by someone more experienced for a number of years is the best way to get rid of any possible problems.

Send your OH on a course and then ask him again if he thinks the training is enough, honestly, it is far, far more intense than most people realise. The trim does differ too, maybe not hugely but it is different to a pasture trim in a couple of ways.

I'm currently reading Hickmans farriery as part of my training and the lack of detail with regards to the trim seriously shocked me, yet this is the main text book used for apprentice farriers. It's seriously lacking in up to date research and methods and the content is very thin with regards to the function, anatomy and health of the foot.

I don't think the "bumpf" on barefoot is anti farrier in any way, at least not the stuff I read. What I do think is currently happening is that the people who are drawn to barefoot go to it because of bad farriers - their horses have hoof problems which farriers aren't helping or have caused, horses that can't hold shoes, etc, etc so this gives a skewed perspective on farriers if you're reading it from the outside so to speak.

As far as the EP that worked on a laminitic, it would be worth knowing who this person was (or emailing Justine with details) so it can be investigated). At one time there was one or two people who had attended workshops but not got anywhere near to qualifying who were trimming and passing themselves off as EPs. It's actually very easy to check who has or hasn't qualified as an EP as all EPs are listed on KC's website. EPs themselves aren't against some sort of regulating body either.

Even at my early stage of training I would want to have any laminitic horse taped into solemates (take them off once a day to give hooves a breather but put back on until horse is comfortable without), horse would be stabled on a deep bed also. The trim would be to put the hoof in balance and I'd probably want to be trimming on a little & often basis to keep the horse as comfy as possible rather than doing it all in one go. Vet would be involved too.

[shandy84]

I have made a point of telling people before and I will again hickmans is not the farriers bible it is one fo many many books they refer to, so don't jude a four year apprenticeship on one book! I think you take it as with any course the learning comes from different sources.

In regards to sending him on a course and it being enough it's not point blank because in a week/two weeks etc the experience of four years cannot be gained.

I have done a lot of research this week into barefoot trimmers and the different types etc and nowhere has a site been anything but critical and rude about farriers, making any farrier that is openminded enough to want to know more say why the hell should he.

I cannot feel that under at least two to three years anyone is proficient enough to handle my horses vital organ, even if it is on the outside :)

[Yann]

I have done a lot of research this week into barefoot trimmers and the different types etc and nowhere has a site been anything but critical and rude about farriers

Can you point me in the direction of some of these sites, because I've done the same and that hasn't been my experience at all. Certainly not people like KC LaPierre and Pete Ramey who are farriers by trade themselves and neither of whom claim that all horses can go barefoot, or should go barefoot, unless I've missed something.

[Bebe]

In regards to sending him on a course and it being enough it's not point blank because in a week/two weeks etc the experience of four years cannot be gained.

I didn't say you gain the equivalent of 4yrs experience, what I meant was that if your OH attended a course he'd know what the training involves rather than just speculating upon it. Actually, the training isn't quantified in hours or weeks, it's a minimum of 160 hours supervised training but the student is expected to gain experience by going out in the field with qualified trimmers, transitioning their own horse and in the later stages trimming other horses to gain experience (just as an apprentice farrier does). They also have to complete an in depth set of modules as coursework, all of which are assessed, pass a mid-term and final exam and then pass a practical and written exam in order to qualify. Most people take 18 months to qualify. When you think that there are no shoeing/blacksmithing skills involved I think this compares pretty favourably with a farriers training.

Most of the trimmers who are making waves on an international scale are also farriers who just choose to no longer shoe horses, so the anti-farrier sentiment isn't coming from them. KC LaPierre is actually giving a talk at the farriers college in Hereford (sorry, not sure what it's proper name is) this week and gave a talk to 28 qualified farriers not so long ago. He's also had a few farriers attend 5 day workshops to learn the trim, surely something that wouldn't be necessary if it was the same as a pasture trim?

As far as the apprentice scheme idea goes, there just aren't enough qualified barefoot trimmers out in the field at the moment for this to be feasible. It's common for students to spend several days out and about with EPs (though it's at their own cost and in their own time) but to do it on a longer term basis just isn't viable at the moment. You couldn't send a student EP out with a farrier either as the philosophy is so different, it just wouldn't work well. I also have concerns over the farriers apprentice scheme as it stands anyway, from an outsiders perspective it seems that the standard of training this provides is hit and miss. If an apprentice is placed with a farrier who trims & shoes to a high standard and can also teach well then it's brilliant, but what happens to the apprentice who's sent to a great farrier who has no teaching skills or patience, or to one who's not up to scratch? Are farriers assessed on a regular basis to ensure that 1) they're still shoeing horses up to standard (what's the point in passing on poor skills?), 2) they're able to provide sufficient training to the apprentice and 3) that the apprentice feels they're getting a good quality of training? As far as I can work out this isn't the case but maybe I'm wrong.

[shandy84]

Are farriers assessed on a regular basis to ensure that 1) they're still shoeing horses up to standard (what's the point in passing on poor skills?), 2) they're able to provide sufficient training to the apprentice and 3) that the apprentice feels they're getting a good quality of training? As far as I can work out this isn't the case but maybe I'm wrong.


Yes they are :) They have an independent assessor come out at least three monthly. They also have to renew their licence and continue to take exams yearly I believe to prove they are still a competent farrier :) The training they can provide is judged by the uni as well as the guy who checks on the apprentices and any problems are reported and go to pannel and the farrier training is called to account for what is going on.

Hope that helps. I can understand the need for more EP's to make an apprenticeship scheme possible, perhaps in the future it will be a more possible course of action. MY OH has been advised not to go o any other courses until he qualifies so not to confuse him but would be interested in learning more when he is qualified the talks seem an ideal introduction when the time comes.

As it is he has read up on the methods used over the internet and has come to the conclusion that at this point his trimming on paper doesn't sound any different, time will tell. I obviously have had an impact as he has pulled our horses shoes this weekend for better or worse (so far so good) and is testing the ground a bit with them as so to speak, Bramble especially as she has had so many feet problems.

Both girls have had feet stay in one piece, no chipping as he already does the roll on the feet regarding loading on the inner wall (hope i've quoted that right) apparently the roll makes it better? Bramble was a little unsure the first two days (not sore) and is fine today, so fingers crossed, if it works he may end up doing more trims than shoeing :)

[Bay Mare]

Woah! I'm away for a few days and the thread morphs into a 'barefoot' v 'shoeing' thread :eek: Oh well, I'm usually the one that goes off at a tangent :D

Obviously I'm pro barefoot but would never say that I wouldn't ever have shoes back on. If there were a situation where it was the only option then of course I would do it. I do hope that the situation doesn't arrive though :)

Someone on another thread said something about not arguing with an eminent vet's standpoint on things (can't remember exactly what was said, I was skimming through, catching up). Anyway, I have to disagree on that. Just because he's highly thought of in veterinary circles DOESN'T mean that he's perfect and doesn't mean that some of his beliefs aren't wrong.

The only way that we progress is by looking at new methods and by challenging current thinking. Look at the eminent paediatrician whose viewpoint put grieving mothers in prison for murdering their babies! The majority of people believed his assertions, he was at the top of his field after all, the police, the courts, the judge and the jury all believed him. Him and his viewpoint has now been discredited. I see it every day, people who are 'the best' are proved to be wrong or at least not to have necessarily the best way of doing things.

I think that it would be great if farriers looked more closely at 'barefoot'. A lot, unfortunately, are threatened by it but that is just being closed minded. Our farrier was a decent enough farrier who did an ok job. He nailed the shoes on really well! He DIDN'T, however, do anything for the crack up the front of her hoof. In fact when we looked more closely at his trim we (my trainer, not the EP) saw that the trim was causing the crack because the foot wasn't balanced. When I had her shoes taken off he warned me about the crack, the crack that he had held together with a shoe and hadn't actually managed to fix. I am happy to report that the crack is now growing out!

I have to say that barefoot (whichever flavour) could do more for promoting their methods in that they could publish case histories etc to show how it helps with navicular etc. There are still people out there who haven't even heard of it and think that it's just for when you stick your horse in a field for a long period of time.

With regards to the pasture v EP trim I have to say that Saff was 'barefoot' at the back for about 9 months before having the HP trim and there weren't really any changes in her foot. Since having the HPT her foot has changed A LOT. I never really believed people when they said that the changes would happen almost overnight but they have. It's fascinating to track the changes.

All I would say is that people need to be open minded and at least educate themselves about the different methods (I knew bugger all about feet apart from the usual anatomy stuff) before coming to a conclusion. As the old saying goes DON'T KNOCK IT TILL YOU'VE TRIED IT :D

[eventerbabe]

Bay mare, if you take issue with one of my comments then please PM me. i stand by what i said. NOBODY on here is as qualified to recomend laminitis treatment as Robert Eustace. My vets follow his treatment plans and they WORK. to me, it seems unfair and cruel to go round the houses dabbling in this and that when theres a treatment plan out there that will get them back on their feet quickly. and with the BEVA doing their laminitis survey, hopefully this will be expanded further.

Did you know the romans found that shoes actually PREVENTED laminitis? the incidence of laminitis in their shod horses on long marches was miniscule compared to those that were unshod.

Everyone is entitled to treat their horses how they feel is appropriate. mine are shod and i have no plans on changeing that. but what i hate is the way people try to ram things like barefoot philosophy and other 'natural horsemanship' topics down your throat. and your critisism of farriers is blatantly unfair. what sort of farrier did you use?? EVERY farrier i have had to my horses has been more than competant to deal with whatever problems they have had. My current farrier is more than open to barefoot (i've printed this out for him to see, and am interested to see what he has to say on this) but the climate in this country means that barefoot is NOT an option for all horses. i am in total agreement for RECOVERED laminitics to go barefoot. if their feet are stabilised then i can't see any problem with that. but during an actual episode its far more comfortable for them to have on such things as frog supports or even imprint shoes.

[Bebe]

As it is he has read up on the methods used over the internet and has come to the conclusion that at this point his trimming on paper doesn't sound any different, time will tell

KC doesn't publish info on his trim on the internet because he doesn't think it's appropriate (you can't really learn how to trim a horse from an article). There's info in his book and on his DVDs but it really is best to attend a talk and then go to a workshop if you think it's something that is worth learning more about.

KC does have an article that's due to be published in BEVA soon and has also been published in several trade journals in the US, these articles might be available on-line.

Did you know the romans found that shoes actually PREVENTED laminitis? the incidence of laminitis in their shod horses on long marches was miniscule compared to those that were unshod.

I've read this recently and find it incredibly hard to believe that this statement can be verified. I also seriously doubt that shoes can prevent laminitis given that most cases of laminitis are caused by toxin overload within the body. It's just not a scientifically sound argument.

As far as Robert Eustace goes I have no doubt that he has a highly specialised knowledge but I know too many people who have had personal experience of following his advice with less than desirable results. No-one is perfect and people do get things wrong.

The problem with the horses hoof at the moment is that no-one truly knows 100% how it works. IMO KC is about 80% of the way there (with published, eminent researchers who have the same findings to back up his theory) but that still leaves 20% which is theory - open to being proved or disproved.

[eventerbabe]

No-one is perfect and people do get things wrong.

The problem with the horses hoof at the moment is that no-one truly knows 100% how it works. IMO KC is about 80% of the way there (with published, eminent researchers who have the same findings to back up his theory) but that still leaves 20% which is theory - open to being proved or disproved.

EXACTLY. there are treatments that robert eustace recomends that may not work, SAME as there are treatments advocated by barefoot fanatics that also may not work. hopefully, if enough people participate in the laminitis survey, the BEVA will be able to collate ALL treatment methods and give us a definitive guide as to how to treat laminitis.

As the old saying goes DON'T KNOCK IT TILL YOU'VE TRIED IT
i could say the same about the shoeing route. YOU haven't tried this route (as regards a laminitic horse) so don't really have any grounding to slate it.

[MelanieD]

NOBODY on here is as qualified to recomend laminitis treatment as Robert Eustace. My vets follow his treatment plans and they WORK. to me, it seems unfair and cruel to go round the houses dabbling in this and that when theres a treatment plan out there that will get them back on their feet quickly. and with the BEVA doing their laminitis survey, hopefully this will be expanded further.

Just because Robert Eustace is an expert doesn't mean he's always right or that there isn't another treatment that works as well or better. Barefoot is a treatment plan as well, and one that often works better, there's not more "dabbling" involved in a barefoot method of treating laminitis than in any other method.

Did you know the romans found that shoes actually PREVENTED laminitis? the incidence of laminitis in their shod horses on long marches was miniscule compared to those that were unshod.

Yeah, heard about that :rolleyes: article in horse and hound. Romans used tied on shoes so not the same as modern horseshoes, more similar to hoof boots really. I'd love to see a scientific/historical reference for that particular 'scientific study' on laminitis :D

but what i hate is the way people try to ram things like barefoot philosophy and other 'natural horsemanship' topics down your throat.

Noone is trying to ram barefoot down your throat, go be happy with your shod horse and don't bother reading barefoot threads if it bothers you that much to see people discuss it :D If you have a really good farrier then you are very lucky, not everyone is that lucky. Also some problems that can't be fixed with shoes can be fixed barefoot, and others can be treated either way but corrected much faster without shoes. I had one of the best farriers in my area shoeing my horse, her feet were still getting worse, since she's been without shoes and trimmed by an EP they've done nothing but improve. I agree that barefoot isn't appropriate for every horse, but shoeing isn't either.

...but during an actual episode its far more comfortable for them to have on such things as frog supports or even imprint shoes.

The point you seem to be rather determined to miss is that barefoot horses can also wear frog supports or sole mate pads for support if needed.

[MelanieD]

Yes they are They have an independent assessor come out at least three monthly. They also have to renew their licence and continue to take exams yearly I believe to prove they are still a competent farrier The training they can provide is judged by the uni as well as the guy who checks on the apprentices and any problems are reported and go to pannel and the farrier training is called to account for what is going on.

Is it just farriers taking apprentices that are assessed? Would be shocked if some of the ones in my area are being assessed and getting away with that quality of work, but they don't take apprentices which would make sense. Unfortunatly it seems the assessment doesn't always work, my previous farrier teaches at a college, and while in most ways he does a very good job he also seems to have decided that horses don't need their bars and now there are loads of young farriers in my area who also get over-enthusiastic with the hoof knife when trimming the bars :rolleyes:

As it is he has read up on the methods used over the internet and has come to the conclusion that at this point his trimming on paper doesn't sound any different, time will tell. I obviously have had an impact as he has pulled our horses shoes this weekend for better or worse (so far so good) and is testing the ground a bit with them as so to speak, Bramble especially as she has had so many feet problems.

The trims are similar to what a lot of farriers are doing already, depends on the farrier, some are doing trims that are not at all similar. The big difference is knowing what kind of conditioning work using different surfaces, boots and pads to improve the feet rather than just see they are sore and decide they must need shoes. Good luck with the barefooting! Are you on IHDG? Think I might have replied to you on there without realising who you were.

[shandy84]

He may well have read other sites which promoted the barefoot viewpoint :) good that he was willing to look though hey? ;)

I personally feel what has put me off barefoot for so long is the way that everyone slates all farriers when talking about it, I happen to know a number of very good farriers and also some bad the only thing I wish is that people didn't tar all farriers with the same brush.

I wouldn't like to take the chance of trying untested treatment methods on my horse when she is seriously ill, I'm just a bit too paranoid of regretting the decision? I am sure there are benefits and drawbacks as with everything.

I would be interested to know the conditions that you suggest a farrier cannot treat but a barefoot practitioner could as a matter of interest.

As far as I know only training farriers are tested except if the farrier in question is taking courses to advance their training in which case they will be tested :)

Yes I am on the forum, felt a little wary posting another barefoot thread on here as this one was going so strong :)

[MelanieD]

I would be interested to know the conditions that you suggest a farrier cannot treat but a barefoot practitioner could as a matter of interest.

Not so much that a farrier can't treat these but it's more difficult to do with shoes, and quite often the solution in shoes is to use shoes to compensate for the problem rather than get rid of the problem completely, a farrier doing a good trim and the right conditioning work could do just as well as any barefoot trimmer.

Lots of navicular horses come totally sound barefoot, including ones that were lame in bar shoes or wedges and had changes on x ray, Pete Ramey claims to have 100% success rate with navicular so far. Underrun heels are really difficult to completely straighten up when shod, barefoot they sort themselves out pretty quickly (my farrier got no improvement in 8 months and he was no useless one, after 6 months barefoot fatso had her heels where they should be). Problems like weak digital cushion and flat soles can be fixed much more easily and quickly barefoot. Much easier to get rid of flaring. White line disease is much easier to get rid of barefoot, soak in clean trax 'wellies' and good trimming much nicer than resections etc. Lots of nasty and persistent cracks grow out barefoot (my horse had one so bad it looked like two different feet stuck together, wobbled and had a massive chunk missing at the bottom, after getting worse over about 18 months it improved as soon as the shoes were off and the inner wall started thickening and healing, now the top is growing down and you can barely see what's left of it it's so tight).

I wouldn't like to take the chance of trying untested treatment methods on my horse when she is seriously ill, I'm just a bit too paranoid of regretting the decision? I am sure there are benefits and drawbacks as with everything.

Totally understandable. A lot of the people who try barefoot have already tried the more conventional treatments first and try barefoot because nothing else is working. Main drawback of barefoot is that it is a lot more work for the owner if the horse has problems, clean trax soaking is a pain in the backside then need to keep up with borax or something to prevent re-infection, taping sole mate pads on and taking horse for walks and missing out on riding is a pain, have to faff about with boots, serious danger of turning into a total hoof anorak :D

[royalequus]

Don't know if this helps, but my mare was diagnosed with rotated pedal bone and thin soles in both front feet about 4 years ago. She has never had laminitis, but was lame at the time of diagnosis. Initially she was fitted with heart bar shoes which made her even more lame, so these were taken off and normal shoes put back on. She then continued to be 'unlevel' for a couple of days after shoeing and would suffer from foot abcesses every couple of months.

Then nearly 2 years ago I took all her shoes off as she had a bad abcess and I was getting really annoyed with having to take shoes off to treat them all the time. She got 1 more abcess about 4 weeks after this and since then she has never had a foot abcess (touch wood!). Her feet have never been in better condition, she is never lame and she has good growth and her soles are hardened. She is trimmed by my normal farrier (who is very good) and has been throughout all of this. When I ride I put a pair of boa boots on as she can be a little foot sore on gravel, but otherwise she is fine.

You need to do what's best for your horse, but going back to basics and keeping everything simple has more than helped mine. I have to say I would not go with any radical foot treatments at all and just a normal trim and tidy up has made the world of difference.

[doris]

My pony had bad laminitis last year. However, she was x-rayed and showed some rotation, but not enough to worry my vet unduly. She was on box rest and medication for 6 weeks during which she had her shoes off. When at last she was sound without bute, she was moved to a bare pen with shelter. I decided not to have her shod again as we do not do much road work, or much work at all in fact. However, as it was her first trim after laminitis, he trimmed her far to 'robustly' to put it mildly, with the result that she literally couldn't walk at all, even on soft going. The vet came out and padded her feet which she had to keep on for a week. On vets advice, I didn't have her trimmed again for 12 weeks, so much for trimming back hard, especially the toes and trimming very often. My vet said it would do her no harm to have a bit of growth on her feet.
My farrier is very good, don't get me wrong, but this particular pony just cannot stand a harsh trim. She has been hobbly again after trimming and I had to have a good discussion with my farrier, who I want to keep by the way. The recognised way is to trim the toes back a bit hard I know. But what's the use of doing this if the animal literally cannot walk for about 6 weeks after trimming! He now trims off a very little bit every 6/7 weeks, doesn't take the toes back and my pony can walk out and I can now ride her round the stony fields and down the lane with no soreness. It has taken a year to get her to this stage, but her feet can now wear down a bit naturally and she seems quite happy. The only thing we cannot get rid of completely is seedy toe and white line disease. Any ideas anyone?

[MelanieD]

Trimming too much off is never a good thing, with or without laminitis. Clean trax is brilliant stuff for getting rid of WLD. Can't remember her email address but it's Justine Jenkins who sells it, have a look at the barefoot forum on www.enlightenedequitation.com there's a discussion about it going on at the moment and it's senjj on there that sells it.

[Yann]

Where is the farrier taking stuff off the toe? He should be relieving the hoof wall but not the sole as I understand it, which shouldn't be making your pony sore. Taking anything off the sole reduces the support to the pedal bone, which needs all it can get. Our little loan pony is a chronic laminitic and the farrier has never to my knowledge touched the sole at the toe, he does trim the heels well down though and leaves the foot looking pretty balanced and tidy. We've just taken her front shoes off and he left the hoof wall clear of the sole at the toe. She seems very comfortable with this and hopefully with the right trimming and regime her feet will benefit. She'll also hopefully be more comfortable for longer as the heels will be able to wear and won't get as long in relation to the toe as they did with shoes on.

I'm no expert on this but so long as there isn't a recurrence of the laminitis and the toe isn't allowed to flare and put mechanical pressure on the laminae then my understanding is that if the infection is dealt with then hopefully good attached hoof wall can grow down and the foot heal. Gem's feet weren't as bad as I was expecting in terms of infection and separation (as far as I can tell anyway) and I've been scrubbing and soaking them in borax. As she has a habit of standing in buckets this isn't too difficult:D