Barefoot trimmer out yesterday, now Sugar is lame.

[Unbridled]

Sugar was doing really well this last week without her shoes. She was even trotting on the gravel (in hand) on Monday. Then the trimmer came yesterday and he rolled her hoof more and rounded out the toe a little more than before. Her hooves look wonderful...but now she's sore! She seems uncomfortable even at a walk and she is lame on gravel. When I tried to lead her down the gravel drive to the pasture she took two steps, stumbled and then refused to walk any more. Even with Easy boots on she refused to walk and seemed a little "off." Is this normal?? I know that the trimmer took off some more than last time and now her soles are really coming in contact with the ground. She is not sore at all until the very end of toe (on the sole) and there is a small stone bruise on the right-hand side. There is no heat in either hoof.

One thing that might have contributed to lameness is that when YO led her back to the pasture yesterday he tied her to the back of his truck and made her trot the whole way. I'm very mad about this since he knows I'm trying to build her up gradually as she was very sore on the gravel when her shoes were first removed. :mad: She came up the drive to the barn this morning (very slowly and obviously sore) but refuses to walk back down, so I left her in the stall for the night. Her vet is coming on Tuesday for her coggins anyway, would it hurt if I wait until then to have her feet checked? Should I leave her in the stall until she is no longer sore? HELP!

[shandy84]

I would contact the trimmer and ask their advice, it is very hard to sdvise without seeing your horses feet. Over here we have numerous products you can put on the hoof and sole to strengthen it maybe that would help?

I would say even if the trimmer did an excellent job the trotting will have had an effect if the ground is hard enough it could just be a concussion lameness

[Unbridled]

I would contact the trimmer and ask their advice, it is very hard to sdvise without seeing your horses feet. Over here we have numerous products you can put on the hoof and sole to strengthen it maybe that would help?

I would say even if the trimmer did an excellent job the trotting will have had an effect if the ground is hard enough it could just be a concussion lameness

I will do that. Thanks for the advice.

Another question: how would you address this situation with the YO. He doesn't believe in barefoot trimming except in extreme situtations and he was against my removing Sugar's shoes. I know that he's just going to blame the lameness on her lack of shoes, not on his treatment on her. But I'm paying $400 a month so that this horse can be well cared for. Surely that should extend to leading her gently while she is in transition from shoes?

[shandy84]

Is she on a full livery? If not how did he come to lead her out in such a way and how far did he have to lead her?

I personally wouldn't be happy to him disregarding my wishes, but then that is why I tend to not settle in yards very easily as all YO's seem to think they are the expert on your horse :rolleyes:

[Unbridled]

Is she on a full livery? If not how did he come to lead her out in such a way and how far did he have to lead her?

I personally wouldn't be happy to him disregarding my wishes, but then that is why I tend to not settle in yards very easily as all YO's seem to think they are the expert on your horse :rolleyes:

She is on full livery so it is his responsibility to put her up and lead her out when I am not there to do it. Generally I am there for the trimmer (I like to be involved), but yesterday was a really busy day for me. I got there in time to lead her up but could not stay until her feet were done. The problem is that her pasture is about a quarter mile down a sloped gravel driveway. When I lead her to or from the field I always walk it--especially now that she is barefoot. But YO is lazy and to him it's easier to tie them, two at a time, to the back of the truck and lead them down that way. When she had shoes it wasn't a big deal, but now that she's in the transition to barefoot I've been really careful about how she's treated. She has only just gotten where she isn't tender on gravel and even volunteered to do a bit of a trot when I was bringing her up on Monday--but that was only for a few steps. He had her going at a trot the entire way to the field. And this is not the small pieces of gravel, either. This is the big chunky granite pieces of gravel--not easy on tender hooves to trot on. :mad: I told him to please walk her gently down after her trim, but he just kind of laughed and made a snide comment about how I "baby" her. He made a similar comment two weeks ago when she came up with a stone bruise; I left him a note to please watch her for lameness and he said something the next day about me and my "little notes."

Edited to add: Have you ever heard anything about soaking sore feet with water and vinegar? Does this really work?

[virtuallyhorses]

If she is sore in the toe area, the trim probably went a little too far into the sole. There is always a judgement to be made when trimming a new horse - to go for the best shape possible which may make the horse a little sore or to be more patient, be more conservative, in working towards the shape you want and give the horse more time to adjust. Most will be conservative but just taking off an extra millimetre or two can be the difference between a sore horse or not.

Barefoot horses soles do bear weight and come into contact with the ground. Over time you will notice that the toe area develops a callous in a half moon shape near the toe (about the same time the whole sole will often become more concave) and the sole in general will harden and increase in depth.

Like you I would be really pee'd off if someone trotted a newly trimmed horse over rough ground - especially a horse that is very new to barefoot anyway. I suspect that this is your problem. This could have caused some considerable bruising of the live sole. I am a bit concerned though that she doesn't want to move even with boots on - perhaps she doesn't realise yet that the boots protect her but do keep an eye on her for a week or so - look for any increasing lameness - call the vet or the farrier out if you think that any of the bruising is becoming an abcess.

:( This is such bad luck when you are starting out on the barefoot transition. I'm not familiar with livery yards so can't really help there - but if you are paying good money to have your horse cared for I would certainly express my displeasure. Livery horses are NOT the YO's property, they are in his care. If you want to dye your horse pink and teach it to play the piano that has nothing to do with the services you are paying for.

[Unbridled]

If she is sore in the toe area, the trim probably went a little too far into the sole. There is always a judgement to be made when trimming a new horse - to go for the best shape possible which may make the horse a little sore or to be more patient, be more conservative, in working towards the shape you want and give the horse more time to adjust. Most will be conservative but just taking off an extra millimetre or two can be the difference between a sore horse or not.

Barefoot horses soles do bear weight and come into contact with the ground. Over time you will notice that the toe area develops a callous in a half moon shape near the toe (about the same time the whole sole will often become more concave) and the sole in general will harden and increase in depth.

Like you I would be really pee'd off if someone trotted a newly trimmed horse over rough ground - especially a horse that is very new to barefoot anyway. I suspect that this is your problem. This could have caused some considerable bruising of the live sole. I am a bit concerned though that she doesn't want to move even with boots on - perhaps she doesn't realise yet that the boots protect her but do keep an eye on her for a week or so - look for any increasing lameness - call the vet or the farrier out if you think that any of the bruising is becoming an abcess.

:( This is such bad luck when you are starting out on the barefoot transition. I'm not familiar with livery yards so can't really help there - but if you are paying good money to have your horse cared for I would certainly express my displeasure. Livery horses are NOT the YO's property, they are in his care. If you want to dye your horse pink and teach it to play the piano that has nothing to do with the services you are paying for.

Thanks for the reply. :)

I went back to see Sugar this evening and she seemed a little better. I put the boots on and led her out and she made the decision to go back to the pasture--although I did lead her in the grass flanking the driveway rather than on the gravel. She still seems a little off even with the boots, though. I called the trimmer and he said keep an eye on her and call him back Monday; he will come out and look at her feet if need be. He suspects the trotting over gravel was probably the source of the problem. I asked about putting anything on the sole of the foot but he said better to leave her be a couple of days and see how she does before considering that. My vet is coming Tuesday to give Sugar her coggins test. If she still seems sore I think I'll have him check her feet just in case.

I'll be glad when this transition period is over, though. Just when I thought we'd gotten past it and now I'm stuck watching her tiptoe over hard surfaces. On of the other boarders (who also has a barefoot horse) was teasing me because she says I wince at every step Sugar takes. She said she did the same thing with her horse, at first. So I guess this is just a phase we'll have to get through. :rolleyes:

[galadriel]

I have to say, I'd be pretty ticked if someone tied my horse to a truck AT ALL in order to lead it somewhere. That sounds like asking for a major accident right there. Much less leading at trotting speeds. Geez.

[Unbridled]

I have to say, I'd be pretty ticked if someone tied my horse to a truck AT ALL in order to lead it somewhere. That sounds like asking for a major accident right there. Much less leading at trotting speeds. Geez.

Don't even get me started on that, seriously. I've had several discussions with YO on this practice but his answer is always the same: "It's only just down the driveway!" Usually, he doesn't bring her up or put her out--I think maybe he's done it three times since spring, since usually she stays outside and when she doesn't I'm there to bring her in--but whenever he does I always tell him to lead her by hand. Does he? No. Like I said, though, when she had shoes on at least I didn't have to worry about her feet getting torn up, but now...

The problem is that this barn is literally the only game in town. I'm having to drive 45 minutes to her as it is, because in my own area most everyone owns horse property, so there aren't any boarding facilities nearby. The only other livery in the area just fired their stable manager because he killed one of their stable horses through neglect and seriously injured a boarder; they don't have anyone but a single stable hand to look after 15 animals. Definitely not a situation I want my girl going into. Most of the other boarding facilities are either just pastures or are people looking to earn a little cash by renting out stalls at their private barns. You know the type of places that don't even require coggins tests. Not to mention the fact that this place has the best facilities and on-site trainers. Literally the only problem is that the YO is an insufferable know-it-all, good ol' boy southerner (if you live in Florida I'm sure you've met the type). But the problem is I don't really have an option to move her, so how to I broach the subject so that he will really listen to me but won't get ticked off?

[galadriel]

If a horse were to trip while tied to a truck going that fast, it would fall and be dragged. He'd be liable for vet bills AND for any permanent damage to the horse (loss of use, loss of performance ability), and probably trainer's bills to get past the emotional trauma. Point it out that way, and he may reconsider. Is a few minutes' convenience with thousands, maybe tens of thousands of dollars? Hitting someone where their wallet is can make a difference, even when nothing else does.

[virtuallyhorses]

...I'll be glad when this transition period is over, though. Just when I thought we'd gotten past it and now I'm stuck watching her tiptoe over hard surfaces. ...

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the transition period can be 6mths or even longer ... of course they make progress all the time and some horses seem to cope with anything within a few weeks.

[artemis]

I would remove my horse where the YO did not respect my wishes. And certainly with such dangerous practices.

I have two ponies that are never shod & have never been lame when trimmed. Surely a lame horse after trimming means that the trimmer doesn't know what he is doing. If you cut your toenails down to the quick you would be sore too.

[Pondrider]

Hi Appy Luv,

I would be outraged if I heard that any YO had treated my horses as you say yours has been! :mad:

Leading your horse out to pasture is part of your YO's duty of care to your, and any other, horses boarded with him - it is terribly unsafe to tie horses to a truck anyway, let alone the fact that you say the horses are tied up two at a time together AND to a moving vehicle. :eek:

Please point out to the YO your concerns and inform him in writing that you will hold him personally responsible for all injury, veterinary fees, and associated costs incurred to your horse - there is a very real danger of 'hidden' injuries here as well that may require treatment such as physiotherapy at a later date.

I would certainly consider that the trotting on the gravelled drive is likely directly responsible for your mare's discomfort - the best person to speak to in the first instance would be the trimmer who attended your horse: if you respect them enough to let them loose on your horse, then listen to his/her comments now before making any further decision.

The early days of transition are the most important as they pave the way for all that follows, and the speed with which the beneficial internal changes in your horses feet occur dictates how long transition takes.
The flip side of this is that if the horse is forced to do something that makes it uncomfortable, transition can be impeded or delayed. Your YO may have done more damage to your horses feet / musculo-skeletal structure than is immediately apparent. :(

I personally have found my TB mare's six-month transition frustratingly slow: but considering how weak and poor her feet were (she was shod as a yearling and raced early) we have come an amazingly long way. The look on my Vet's face when I told (and showed!) him that my mare was now sound and being given good marks in Dressage competitions as well as hacking out on the roads, and trail Hunting barefoot, was priceless :D

If the YO persists in using unsafe practices, vote with your feet and move your horse before a potentially fatal accident occurs.

Can you tell how cross I am on your behalf????? ;)

[Unbridled]

Thank you everyone for your replies and advice. :)

virtuallyhorses: I am aware that the transition period can be a long one. The problem I am having is that Sugar has suddenly regressed when before she was making progress. She was perfectly fine walking in hand on gravel on the Monday before the trimming...now she literally hobbles. That is not normal even for a barefoot horse.

As I said earlier, moving my horse is really not an option unless I want to take her somewhere even worse (there are a frightful few options in my area). But I am definitely going to speak to YO about this. I am glad I gave it a couple of days, though. I'm calmer now and have had time to plan what I will say.

Galadrial, your advice about bringing money into the conversation is excellent. I will point out to him that he will be held liable for any injuries he causes (whether he likes it or not). I think I'll also threaten move my horse if this practice continues. I think the threat of losing a boarder will be sufficient for him; he is very much about the money.

Also, I have decided to have the Ultimate Barefoot Trimmer out to check on Sugar's feet. This is the trimmer who taught my own trimmer how to do it; he's written a book on the subject and does a lot of clinics, so it will be interesting to see what he says on the matter. He will be at the barn at 10:00 tomorrow morning and hopefully we can get those poor hooves sorted out. Although I am really inclined to believe that it was YO not trimmer that made Sugar lame, at least the Master Trimmer might be able to give me some advice as to how to ease her discomfort. My vet is coming on Tuesday for Sugar's coggins and strangles, so I'm going to have him check her feet as well.

I'll keep you guys posted as to her progress and, again, thanks to you all for your advice. :)

[Greentchr]

May I suggest having the 'Ultimate Trimmer' and the vet speak to the YO about his practice of trotting behind a truck on gravel? Wheras the YO has little respect for you (it's probably a 'man' thing as well as a southern thing ;) ), he will be more inclined to listen to both your farrier and your vet. Having the vet attest to the danger will also make it more likely that the YO will quit- the vet is considered an 'expert' in the eyes of the courts, and if something should happen as a result of his actions, it would be considered negligence since he had been previously warned. Having other owners speak out against it will help your case also. Have you been able to connect with other owners in the facilities? How about speaking to the trainers and having them put their 2-cents in? I have found that when speaking to 'know-it-alls', and especially lazy ones, that the more ammunition you can shoot with, the better chance that you will be listened to, however grudgingly.

[Bebe]

One thing that might have contributed to lameness is that when YO led her back to the pasture yesterday he tied her to the back of his truck and made her trot the whole way. I'm very mad about this since he knows I'm trying to build her up gradually as she was very sore on the gravel when her shoes were first removed. She came up the drive to the barn this morning (very slowly and obviously sore) but refuses to walk back down, so I left her in the stall for the night.

Sorry but this is not the trimmers fault, this is your fault for allowing your barn owner to use this method to turn your horse out. Even if you don't like it by staying at this barn knowing this goes on you are allowing it to happen.

My personal opinion on this is that if you can't/won't move yards and can't guarantee your barn owner won't stop this practice for turning out or bringing in is that you should have your horse shod. It's only going to come up sore everytime this happens and it's not fair on the horse or the trimmer who will ultimately end up being blamed for it being sore.

Each horse transitions differently but the key is for exercise to be controlled and taken at the horses pace. Every time the horse is pushed out of it's current comfort zone to the point that it is sore you're taking two steps backwards.

[Unbridled]

Sorry but this is not the trimmers fault, this is your fault for allowing your barn owner to use this method to turn your horse out. Even if you don't like it by staying at this barn knowing this goes on you are allowing it to happen.

My personal opinion on this is that if you can't/won't move yards and can't guarantee your barn owner won't stop this practice for turning out or bringing in is that you should have your horse shod. It's only going to come up sore everytime this happens and it's not fair on the horse or the trimmer who will ultimately end up being blamed for it being sore.

Each horse transitions differently but the key is for exercise to be controlled and taken at the horses pace. Every time the horse is pushed out of it's current comfort zone to the point that it is sore you're taking two steps backwards.

Umm...did I say it was the trimmer's fault? I was merely stating the facts: the trimmer came out, the horse was trotted down a gravel drive, and the horse became lame the next day. Also, I think you are being very harsh. I already stated that I told the yard owner to walk her down in hand. I trusted that he would do it; he didn't do it. I have since dealt with that situation and it will not happen again. I never blamed the trimmer for Sugar's lameness. The only reason I asked the other trimmer to take a look at it is because he has more experience and specializes in lame or unsound horses. My regular trimmer knows I had him out and he has no problem with it; I never blamed him for anything and we still have an excellent relationship. I honestly have no idea where you picked up the idea I was going to verbally attack the trimmer. And to insinuate that I am not properly caring for my horse by not moving yards is ludicrous and also offensive to me. There is literally nowhere else in this area where she would get any level of real care. I have addressed the problem with the YO and, yes, I did have to get firm with him. However, the matter is now resolved and the horse will not be led that way again.

Thanks Galadrial for the excellent advice, by the way. I used the liability issue as a talking point and it worked very well. :)

The Ultimate Trimmer was out this morning, by the way. His diagnoses was that although the other trimmer had taken off a bit more hoof wall than he would have liked (since Sugar has only been without shoes for few weeks) ultimately the cause of the lameness was trauma. Since her soles are still thin from being shoed so long, she did not have an adequate amount of callous for her to trot on gravel without some painful repercussions. He is fairly confident we will not have an abcess however, although obviously he couldn't make any promises. But he showed me some Boa boots and helped me to size a pair for Sugar's front feet. Size one fits her perfectly and, even better, once she had them on she was no longer lame, even on gravel. He told me to leave her in the field barefoot, but for the next three weeks or so whenever I take her out of the field I am supposed to put the boots on. After three weeks we will start weaning her out of the boots. He also said that he thought she would be sound to ride (gently, of course) in the boots within a week or so. He told me that keeping her moving is the best thing for her, because it helps to encourage hoof growth, so I will be working her in hand until she is able to be ridden--though of course we will take things slowly. He also said Sugar has very nice, hard feet and that once this trauma is cleared up she should be just fine barefoot. :)

Has anyone else used Boa boots? Sugar's reaction to them was amazing--much more dramatic than with the Easy Boots. She was literally hobbling without them on the concrete barn aisle, but once we fitted them the trimmer asked me to trot her toward him and I did and Sugar didn't seem to be uncomfortable at all. She didn't even seem to notice the boots were there, after the first few strides or so.

[galadriel]

I used the liability issue as a talking point and it worked very well. :)

Good to hear that this is changing! It really did sound like a huge accident waiting to happen.

Boa boots (and Old Mac's) are getting more common. They're essentially horsey sneakers. Once she's doing well again, you can still use them if you want to, say, go for a ride over rocky ground or on roads.

[Unbridled]

Good to hear that this is changing! It really did sound like a huge accident waiting to happen.

Boa boots (and Old Mac's) are getting more common. They're essentially horsey sneakers. Once she's doing well again, you can still use them if you want to, say, go for a ride over rocky ground or on roads.

LOL. Yeah, I think I actually scared him a little. I wasn't rude or angry about it, but I just told him that seriously I was concerned about the practice and did not want my horse involved in it. And since I didn't want my horse involved I would hold him personally liable if anything should happen to her that caused her an injury while he was doing it. I also shamelessly plagiarized your post and pointed out to him that if she stumbled and fell while tied behind the truck--which she is more prone to do while barefoot--that she would be dragged and seriously injured. I really got firm with him on the issue (usually I'm sorry to say I am a pushover) and I think that startled him as much as anything. Thanks for the excellent advice. :)

[galadriel]

I also shamelessly plagiarized your post

Well, the whole point of posting that was so you could use it if you needed to :) I'm glad it's not going to happen!

I have often been a pushover in my personal life...but make things even uncomfortable (much less dangerous) for my animals, and I'll turn into a tiger ;) Having to stand up for my critters has actually helped me develop some more assertiveness in other areas. It's strange how we can be so much more protective of others than of ourselves.