another critique please!!

[AllEquestrian]

could any one of you please critique these photos? my position mainly, but if you want to say something about the horse thats fine!

walking;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras058.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras059.jpg

trotting

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras062.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras063.jpg

[Cheko]

[COLOR=Navy]In all the pictures, you appear to be looking down instead of up and straight ahead. Your hands seem to be too low and your arms almost straight. In the picture where you're trotting, you seem to be rising too high and again not looking up and ahead with arms too straight. Try sitting with your seat deep into the saddle. Raise your hands a bit so as you can bend the elbows. This gives more flexibiity in your hands and arms and shoulders. (Tuck your seat under you) and sit tall. Nice looking horse so sit tall and proud. COLOR]

[AllEquestrian]

thanks for everything you said :)

[Styric]

They did a pretty good job with your position, and I'm not sure if this will help as I'm no expert, but I've taken the liberty to mark your pictures the way I was shown by an old instructor. I've found this super good at showing a few areas you could improve :) It's mostly common sense, as well as super interesting. I personally like critiquing my own photos, though I end up feeling like a crap rider :rolleyes:

Again, I'm no expert so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong:

Anyways, first off, your horse is behind the vertical. He's also not accepting the bit and is 'broken' down his neck as well as on the forehand.

Here, I'll show you:

http://styric.no-ip.org/images/critiques/varras1.JPG

The orangish line is the line from his poll to his jaw. The yellow triangle shows generally where his jaw is connected to. Ideally, it would go from his poll, to his jaw, to your hands. The purple line shows the vertical.

http://styric.no-ip.org/images/critiques/varras2.JPG

Here, the red line is the impulsion line, and where it's going. The green line is level. Generally, you want the impulsion line above the green line so the horse isn't moving downhill (on the forehand). When this happens, the weight is lifted off the front legs and eases their carrying burden immensely.

http://styric.no-ip.org/images/critiques/varras3.JPG

Here, the blue line shows the energy output from his legs and where it's going. Ideally this would also be the poll.

This is kind of a bad angle, but here's another picture done the same way:

http://styric.no-ip.org/images/critiques/varras4.jpg

[AllEquestrian]

so i need to work on getting him to accept and move up to the bit, working more from behind and lightening his forehand?

[Styric]

Exactly, though accepting and working up to the bit and lightening the forehand is all the same thing, which is working off the hindquarters. That brings everything into place usually. Ride the horse tail to ears, not ears to tail... :) And that's the tricky part :D It all works great in theory, but actually getting out there and doing it has me stumped some days.

And since I'm totally paranoid these days, it'll also take alot of the load off his deep flexor and the navicular area of his front feet. But that's my personal demon :)

[Styric]

Oh and by the way, he's a lovely boy, what breed?

I adore his face.

[vimto92]

I think you look good! Your horse is nice too.

All I am going to say is :

If my instructer from today saw you he would go "shorten up those reins you dont want washing lines!"
Your reins look good in the last picture.

[Tangle]

Personally I like longer than average reins - helped by the way piggy fat mare takes anything other than a VERY light contact as an invitation to lean.... :rolleyes:. In this instance the horse is already slightly behind the vertical, which suggests to me the contact is a little too strong for the impulsion that he has at this point in time.

In general you don't look bad at all. For refinements I'd agree with quite a lot of what's already said, but I wonder how much of it is coming from your core posture: if you look at the two pictures in profile (the 2nd walk or 1st trot) it looks as though you're torso is tipped ever so slightly forward in each of them. If you allow your shoulders to come back a little more that might well sort out lots of the issues with your arms :).

Styric - interesting way of looking at pics. Am I right in thinking that the yellow triangle is from bit to hand to "highest point on neck" - hence (in an ideal world) should be poll?

[AllEquestrian]

styric - hes a belgian warmblood from belgium! (well we're in belgium :p ) hes lovely. an amazing jumper, just needs a bit of work on the flat, mainly in the canter, and as shown in the pics on lightening his forehand. ive been working at it, but ive only had him 3 weeks on monday!

In this instance the horse is already slightly behind the vertical, which suggests to me the contact is a little too strong for the impulsion that he has at this point in time.

i agree with that 100%, but i think i should be pushing more rather than having less contact.

i feel that he gives a nicer ride when ive got less of a contact.
but sometimes i do shortern up cos he can be quite spooky, and in a canter he gets quite strung out with little contact...

[Tangle]

For 3 weeks you look really good :D.

Sorry if my previous post was unclear - it wasn't necessarily a suggestion to lengthen your reins, more that there needs to be a balance between the length of rein and amount of impulsion in order to get a good contact.

I would still say that for the impulsion you have in the pics there is too much contact (weight in the reins), which he's showing by coming behind the vertical. And I'd totally agree that the best way to solve that is to get more impulsion (allowing him to decrease the contact in the same length of rein by lifting his top line more) rather than increasing the rein length :).

How is he in responding to your seat? Can you control his pace in walk and trot without changing the reins? I've just been watching too many show jumpers that are cranked in at the front so much they're canter has become four beat (inside front before outside hind). Not tryind to say that's what you're doing, I'm just always paranoid when people say/imply they shorten their reins going up a gait in the school :o

[AllEquestrian]

he responds alright to my seat, and really quite well to my voice (im quite a "cluck-y" and "woah-y" rider !) so i can speed up/slow down in walk and trot without overtly using my reins or legs. altho i obv. maintain a contact in the reins and have my legs somewhat "on" his sides.

but the thing is that hes an out-and-out show jumper, its all hes known really (somewhat similar to me), so in a canter i find he goes much better, more balanced, etc, when im in a more foreward position, i.e. the one id be in round an sj course, not like a jumping position or anything (not out of the saddle constantly), i think some people describe it as a "rising canter"! although im working on getting him used to me in the saddle at a canter

i dont think i crank him in, and his canter is defo 3 beat, its just as you can see in those pics, i ride with quite long reins, and in a canter he has more "power" (he has a really powerful canter!) so i need more contact to contain it.

[Styric]

Styric - interesting way of looking at pics. Am I right in thinking that the yellow triangle is from bit to hand to "highest point on neck" - hence (in an ideal world) should be poll?

Sort of yup, it looks at where the horse is breaking over, which usually means high point :) Hence the term 'breaking at the poll'. When they break further down the neck, that's just as much a refusal of the bit as lifting their head up really high, and actually much much more difficult to correct.

I personally like this way of looking at the pictures as it makes perfect sense and really gets you thinking. Though this method isn't perfect, it helps you spot the basics. Another point to keep in mind when doing it: a horse doesn't have to be tucked with a perfect frame to be there, in fact being above the bit slightly is recommended, especially in extended gaits. Being completely on the vertical at all times 'locks' their jaw and doesn't give you the softness.

I've also done this on lots of other pictures, and found that alot of upper level dressage riders aren't really doing that well either. Look at this certain very high level dressage rider:

http://styric.no-ip.org/images/critiques/Anky-300.jpg

[Tangle]

Thanks for that - did cross my mind that I can't think of any photos of any high level riders currently competing that would pass this test :(.

Still got a couple of questions, but I'll start a new thread in "training of the horse" rather than completely hijack AllEquesrian's ;)

edited to add that new thread is here (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?p=707359#post707359), for anyone interested

[laura jeanne]

I'm just wondering about the red impulsion line and the green vertical line. If the red line is above the green one, it seems like his head would have to be up much further- is that right? How did you figure out how to draw the red line?

[AllEquestrian]

well its good to know its not just me getting it wrong! :rolleyes:

[Tangle]

It might be worth considering what you want to acheive with your boy - the photo Styric posted is of a combination currently winning gold medals in international competitions. His quarters are more engaged, although could be more so (and you can easily find others where his hind legs are trailing) but you can see that, by this analysis, he's noticeably on his forehand and any review will show he's behind the vertical / overbent.

Watching the olympics (and looking at photos of top level competitors) you can see that riding strictly according to a classical ideal doesn't appear to be what's winning competitions. You'll rarely see a photo of a horse that has it's hocks stepping well under, isn't on it's forehand and isn't behind the vertical. Whether that's good or bad, right or wrong, if you have strong competitive ambitions, then the advice for achieving your goal may be different to that given in this thread so far....

Wherever you're taking him, enjoy him - he looks like a lovely boy :)

[Styric]

It might be worth considering what you want to acheive with your boy - the photo Styric posted is of a combination currently winning gold medals in international competitions. His quarters are more engaged, although could be more so (and you can easily find others where his hind legs are trailing) but you can see that, by this analysis, he's noticeably on his forehand and any review will show he's behind the vertical / overbent.

Watching the olympics (and looking at photos of top level competitors) you can see that riding strictly according to a classical ideal doesn't appear to be what's winning competitions. You'll rarely see a photo of a horse that has it's hocks stepping well under, isn't on it's forehand and isn't behind the vertical. Whether that's good or bad, right or wrong, if you have strong competitive ambitions, then the advice for achieving your goal may be different to that given in this thread so far....

Wherever you're taking him, enjoy him - he looks like a lovely boy :)


You said it better than I ever could. How I critiqued it is more for what I believe to be riding. Once I was shown that as well as some more basic information, I've been officially hooked onto the ideals of classical dressage. It's much more expressive, light and much more beautiful.. and seems so much farther than I can achieve, though if I can get even a little bit of it it's worth it.

The fact of barely being able to find a picture of a champion rider that isn't on the forehand or overbent makes me sad.

So it's entirely up to what you want to do.

[bexj]

What an interesting thread - thanks all!! :D

[AllEquestrian]

personally, i have no dressage goals whatsoever! other than i want to work on his flatwork to improve our jumping. because it is jumping that im more interested in, and he is better at!

i've been told that hes been doing 1m20-1m30 courses, and ive done courses of up to 1m25 (but obv. not on him, as ive only just got him) but in my humble opinion i think his flatwork needs to be better, particularly his canter, to be able to jump courses of that height.

so basically im just working on our flatwork with jumping in mind, rather than dressage as it were.

[Ross]

I would say that your lower leg is slightly too far back, and you are tipping your hands over so that they're on top of the reins. Your hands are too low, and look very 'set', though the photos may be deceptive; also having your hands down there is tending to make you tip forwards slighly.

I think you might be better off forgetting about the front end for a bit, and getting him to work through from behind. But you really need someone on the ground to help. I found a good trick was to have a lesson, but get someone to video it for you - that way you get double he value :)

Ross

[AllEquestrian]

i dont think my lower leg is too far back at all, is there not meant to be a line from hip to heel?

i do however agree my hands are too low, im not sure whether im tipped forward or just leaning forwards slightly (its the jumper in me!)

[casey]

I hate critiquing photos, But will say hand on heart, that you'll never get around a 1.30m course with reins that long. In a couple of photos, as Ross said your hands look set. I agree.
I dont believe being a ahowjumper should be an excuse for tipping forward. The horse is eg. 60% on the forehand. Add a saddle that sits us closer to the shoulders then the rear and you are looking at a horse that, unless ridden with impulsion is basically on the forehand. So sitting upright can only make the horse's life easier. :)

Good luck on your future ventures. :)

[AllEquestrian]

oh no i dont ride with reins like that when i jump :eek: no no no

dont believe being a ahowjumper should be an excuse for tipping forward

not an excuse, just a reason ;) . i am and shall be working on it further. i have been working on getting him lighter in front, but have only had him a short period of time.

thanks :)

[claire hodgson]

but remember, 'dressage' means 'training'. And as you know, the more effective flatwork you do, the better the jumping will be as well. Good luck with it ..

[AllEquestrian]

more piccies if anyones interested:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras064.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras061.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/helena88/varras060.jpg

[RustyMary]

Thanks very much AllEquestrian for putting up your pictures for critique. As a completely new rider I find this kind of thing incredibly helpful but there would be no point in putting pics of me up as I am of course doing EVERYTHING wrong:rolleyes: ! I need to see pictures of people doing it mostly right and just having bits pointed out. I have private lessons and don't get the chance to see other people riding (my RI is 8 months pregnant so obviously isn't riding at present!) so it's so useful - thanks everyone.

[AllEquestrian]

aw thanks for saying thanks! and don't worry we all have to start somewhere, its taken me 10 years to get this far! and ive still got so much to learn :eek: but then everyone does - we never stop learning with horses!
and you're very lucky to be having private lessons! ive only had a private lesson once or twice in my life!