counter canter - novice explanation

[Dummer&Drummer]

hi i had my regular flat work lesson last night with my dressage instructor, and she is lovely and i really enjoy these lessons - they are hard as despite my horse being 10 his knowledge of flat work is about age 5 :)

the lesson left my disheartened and very frustrated - i did not understand what my instructor was asking me to do really.

we are working towards counter canter and the exercise was to canter down the long side of the arena but to come in and then go back out towards the centre. i sort of understand that on the slight bend of coming in (in my terminology) he would have been on the wrong leg. Bit confused about what i should be doing/achieving

very basically i knew where i was cantering (direction) but should i have been doing anything with my weight, legs, should his head have been facing out, keeping the canter so he did not break into trott to change legs, i dont know bit confused, (my instructor is quite technical in her terminology)

is counter canter the wrong leg, but on purpose :rolleyes: very BASIC words and help please

[Arabesque]

Wrong leg purposefully- yeah I thought so. At the most basic level... anyone?

[Dummer&Drummer]

i think that the snake exercise described above is the very begining of working towards counter canter and it is only the LAST PART of the TURN BACK to the long side that is the counter canter part (wrong leg bit) - which we actually broke back into trott for (so did not do it anyway :) - it is not just a case of keep him cantering though on the snake - or is it??? should i not be putting my weight different to help him stay on the same leg and not change - i know the snake should be a subtle bend in (not really a turn) and use legs as opposed to reins to bring him out then in

from the straight line (the start of the long side) should my weight be put into the outer stirrup and inner leg push over to the outer leg to bring him out, but to keep him going as well so he canters the last bend and does not break to trott, as just for that part he is on wrong leg - (see very basic terminolgoy) :) - have i got the idea from what the horse should be doing??? dont get what i need to be doing???

the exercise is not as easy as just canter the snake bend or is it???? should his head be looking slightly one way but we going the other?? confused cos i dont understand

[Perfect Pony]

this is what i was taught! its usually done on a figure of eight to practice!
Counter canter is when the horse is cantering on the wrong leg but on purpose but is perfectly balance un like when he is usually on the wrong leg!
I use it a lot for show jumping!
This is what i was taught, when doing the figure of eight when you go across to change the diagonal to keep canter on that leg your aids should not change and you should keep yourself where you are telling the horse that u dont want him to alter his stride!
However if u wanted him to do a flying change and change his leg you need to distribute your weight to the outside rein when changing, keep your legs on and dont let him cut the corner!!!
This is a really usefull exercise that my instructor has me do all the time in prep for show jumping!
So it comes into practice in the ring when you change rein towards the next jump and is very good against the clock!
All the rider has to do then is decide if you have enough time for a flying change or not, if not opt for counter canter!!!
This is how i have been taught it anyway and its worked well for me for years!!!
Not sure about dressage or anything tho, so sorry this probably wasnt much help!!! :o

[Bertie]

I thought counter canter was when you do a shallow loop down the long side (M, B, F side on right rein for example).

It's where you change your bend to the opposite side but remain on the other lead leg.

For example on the right rein, you pick your canter up at K, then at C go deep into the M corner and canter shallow loop down the long side at the middle point between B & X (not sure of letter) you change your bend to the left bend but stay with a right canter lead, then at F change back to right bend with right lead leg.

If that's wrong please correct me :)

[MeMe]

Counter canter is just simply cantering on the wrong leg, on purpose, although it should remain balanced and unhurried.

Bertie's description is how I would introduce CC to a novice horse, riding Shallow Loops is very effective the figure of 8 is good, but requires alot of counter canter for a novice horse and isent really advisable, as its likely to create change.

[Bertie]

I've done a very rubbish diagram of what I was trying to say hope this expalins it - again if wrong please correct

[cvb]

i think that the snake exercise described above is the very begining of working towards counter canter and it is only the LAST PART of the TURN BACK to the long side that is the counter canter part (wrong leg bit) - which we actually broke back into trott for (so did not do it anyway :) - it is not just a case of keep him cantering though on the snake - or is it???

I think you are describing a shallow loop off the long side in canter. As such the initial turn is in "correct bend" for the leg but you gradually move onto the reverse "rein" and then back again. It should be smooth and gentle with no abrupt turns. You can start with a really small loop to get the idea and build up.

should i not be putting my weight different to help him stay on the same leg and not change - i know the snake should be a subtle bend in (not really a turn) and use legs as opposed to reins to bring him out then in

the horse has to stay in balance. Often the weight aids we need are much more subtle than we think and just by, for example, looking in the direction we want to go. our weight changes enough. I would be a bit concerned that if you ACTIVELY move about you will throw him off balance and hence not maintain the canter through the "counter" part of it.

let's break this down

from the straight line (the start of the long side) should my weight be put into the outer stirrup and inner leg push over to the outer leg to bring him out

At this stage all you are doing is asking the horse to come off the track. Exactly the same as if you asked for e.g. a 20 m circle at B or E. So you know this one already ;) Just ask for the turn, quietly, calmly.

but to keep him going as well so he canters the last bend and does not break to trott, as just for that part he is on wrong leg - (see very basic terminolgoy) :)

yes you will need to maintain impulsion.

now you have made the turn off the long side, straighten up a little so you aren't just riding a circle ;). Now you want to start heading back to the track...

should his head be looking slightly one way but we going the other?? confused cos i dont understand

Well actually the horse needs to be "straight" - but it all depends at this stage on what he can manage. YOu may find that initially you need to use counter-flexion to help him out, then progress to "straight" (on the curve) and so on. (* see later for counter-flexion exercises to prepare for this).

So, you are in, say left lead canter but are heading on a slightly right curve. Its only for a very short while as now you can curve back to the left again to join the track once more. In the shallow loop exercise the "counter-canter" part is only for a small section of the middle of the loop.

Now - what aids you maintain during the whole loop again depends on what you have been taught to do. As canter is not symmetrical, when you are on a particular "leg" your inside leg is likely to be slightly advanced compared to outside - this is simply a mirror of the horse's pelvis and movement. So you want to maintain the same "leg" and hence your leg position is not going to change much. You may need to rebalance slightly to get the horse to turn to the "outside" (i.e. back to the track). But as I said before, it may be enough to simply look where you want to go. This will alter your upper body just slightly (rotate from waist rather than tipping or twisting).

Is this making any sense ??? I'd start with a tiny tiny loop first, and build up. Another way to do this is to use a half-circle off the track and incline back to track. Ride a stride or two straight on the track in counter canter and THEN ask for trot. (NB don't collapse to trot as soon as you hit the track !).

anyway back to the "*" point - counter flexion. I find a really useful exercise is to ride trot figure 8's with counter flexion. So I might ride a trot circle on right rein in correct flexion. As I go through the middle of the "8" I will maintain the right rein flexion but ride a left circle. When I initially do this I may only ride a few steps before changing the flexion to left and correct for the circle I am on. Repeat so that you have tried counter flexion on both reins. It is a really useful exercise both for horse and rider as it supples the horse up but also really makes the rider think about their aids, co-ordination, intent etc :D

Shadow Dancer - asking for a full circle in counter canter is quite a lot if the rider and horse have not done it before ! Some horses naturally have very good balance in counter canter but others really struggle. The loop and half-circle exercises allow you to check this out before you try something harder ;)

[Perfect Pony]

meme- figure of eight isnt 'wrong' its just the same but more for showjumping as its working on a larger counter canter area!!!
I do agree that figure of eights are not so good for the young horse learning counter canter, however they dont have to be big, for example in my show jumping schooling i practice changing the rein on all sizes with very very sharp turns keeping him steady and balanced and this can only be developed from starting larger and gradually getting smaller!!!
Thses shallow loops are good but i dont use them for show jumping im more likely to go across a diagonal!! Especially on grass!!!
Im not big on dressage so dont know about that but am i correct in thinking that you shouldnt do a flying change in dressage??? :rolleyes:

[cvb]

bertie - exactly but you can make the turn on and off the track even smoother ;)

Shadow dancer "am i correct in thinking that you shouldnt do a flying change in dressage???"

well it depends what you asked for !! If you ask for counter-canter then you are asking them NOT to change. If you ask for a change, thats what you want.

If you've ever seen a dressage horse "skip" across the diagonal doing tempi (every step) changes, you'll know they DO want horses to change - but only when asked ;)

[Perfect Pony]

oh, im not very in tune with dressage so i dont really watch it!

[cvb]

oh, im not very in tune with dressage so i dont really watch it!

no problem :D would rather people asked than not !

[MeMe]

I dident say it was wrong altogether SD and being an ex showjumper on the junior team and competing at a high level, Im well aware of what showjumpers do, I dident always compete in dressage solely.

I simply said for a Novice horse the movement requires to much counter canter and would encourage the horse to change, I would not advise introducing a horse to counter canter with the figure of 8 movement, a shallow loop is much more appropriate.

[Dummer&Drummer]

god so boggling :) but making head way i think. counter canter, is purposely asking to go on the wrong leg or to stay on the same leg going into an opposite bend.

it is a shallow loop we have just started on as it just an introduction to counter canter.

shallow loop, so....i am going to look where i am going (hence will subtly keep a tiny bit of body weight out or in right place, confused, going on the principal of looking where i am going, as can relate to that, oh no no no i did a round of sj looking where i was going and we got all the right different strike offs/flying changes :rolleyes: help. am i going to change the position of my legs for the opposite bend? or was it the looking in other direction AND legs moving, and tweeking of the other rein that made him do a flying change


how do i get him to stay on same leg round the opposite bend - do nothing, so not asking for flying change??

good about the figure of 8 in trott asking for canter flexion, ill try that tonight - hoping to practice the shallow loop after as well

[Dummer&Drummer]

when trotting the figure of 8 with counter flexion, do you not have his head slighlty looking out, so half way through the figue or 8 do you change the rein counter flexion??? or were you telling me to purposefully not change it to subtle him up so he does the same counter flexion in both circle directions (eg spliting the figure of 8 into 2 parts, he looks outwards on the 1st circle and inwards on the 2nd bend in a figure of 8 keeping him on the same rein)

[Dummer&Drummer]

on the shallow loop can you give me a list of things i am NOT going to do (eg so he does not do flying change)

and list of thing i AM going to do

this way my little pea brain maybe able to read both and suss it out a bit more clearly

thank you - i know what counter canter is now, which bit relates to the shallow loop, sort of thinking the more i do on the shallow loop the more i am going to ask him to accidently change legs (im quite a strong rider) and need to maybe doing less and just ride him on as smoothly as possible and see what he offers :rolleyes:

[cvb]

when trotting the figure of 8 with counter flexion, do you not have his head slighlty looking out, so half way through the figue or 8 do you change the rein counter flexion??? or were you telling me to purposefully not change it to subtle him up so he does the same counter flexion in both circle directions (eg spliting the figure of 8 into 2 parts, he looks outwards on the 1st circle and inwards on the 2nd bend in a figure of 8 keeping him on the same rein)

Ok. riding a circle on right rein with right flexion. I come to the X and KEEP right flexion but ride a LEFT circle. Somewhere round that circle I will change from RIGHT FLEXION to LEFT - so now I am on left circle with left flexion. As you pass through X (presuming horse is settled and soft), keep the LEFT flexion but turn onto RIGHT circle. Somewhere on this circle change from LEFT to RIGHT flexion...

repeat ;)

It does not really matter where on the circle you make the change. When my lot were getting good at this I would ride a complete circle in counter flexion, and then either (a) change back onto the other circle without changing flexion (so now I am automatically on correct flexion for the circle I am on) or (b) as I went through X I stayed on the same circle but changed to correct flexion, then NEXT time through X I changed rein but kept flexion, and so on.

things i am NOT going to do

LOL - in theory he should not change lead unless you ask him to ! So that it one thing NOT to do ;)

Now - if you were in trot or walk, how would you ask for a particular lead of canter ?

So say you are on left rein, left lead, and doing a shallow loop to get right counter-canter for a few strides. If I was going to ask for right canter I would..... ?????

And you know you DON'T want to ask for right canter so you're NOT going to are you !!!

things I AM going to do

Carry on maintaining left lead ;) which means

left hip slightly advanced vs right, and left leg on the girth.

But make a turn to the right which means you need to look to the right, which will bring shoulders slightly around ;)

A lot of this is rider-problem rather than horse - we tend to get a bit "programmed" that the horse has to bend and look the way he is going. There are some things you can do in trot to work on this - like the counter flexion circles...

Do you do shoulder-in/fore or quarters-in (that is deliberately ! LOL) ? if so, then have a play with renvers http://www.ridinghabit.com/guide/lateralwork/renvers.html
(also this looks useful http://pages.sbcglobal.net/bielikov/dressage/D-10.htm)

as it requires similar rider co-ordination... don't worry about being "dressage perfect", just have a play with it.

The other thing is to steal something from the showjumpers - you quite often see them warming up in canter and asking the horse to flex both ways rather than only in the direction of their lead. At this level I wouldn't try it in on a circle - ride up the quarter line or centre line and ask for just a little flexion both ways. (the wall or fence gets in the way on the track). Again it gets away from this idea that the horse goes where his head is pointing !

[Dummer&Drummer]

Oh cvb, my brain hurts now.

figure of 8 flexion stuff - got it, understood

the rest is not lol :)

to change canter leads when jumping i look which ever way which moves shoulders and move legs accordingly - but that is the same as what you told me to do below - ok, how do YOU ask to change canter lead, is it not move legs and look where you want to go, but that is the same thing to bring him back on to the long side???? oh i want a wooden rocking horse

if i dont ask him to go right - we gonna do a 20m left circle surely and if i ask him to go right the way my brain is thinking he gonna switch legs - how do i get him back to the track if i leave legs in left canter position and dont tweek right rein - lost myself havent i :)

[Dummer&Drummer]

lets put it another way - How do i stop him from changing canter leads to come BACK in off the loop on to the long side if i am going to
look where i am going (moving shoulders and weight subtly)
move legs to turn, so inside leg goes forward outside leg squeezes to inside leg
tweet reins the way i want to go

is this not all stuff to change canter leg

[cvb]

ridingtomy00

to change canter leads when jumping i look which ever way which moves shoulders and move legs accordingly

ok - but I bet when you do that there is actually quite a big weight move AND you move your legs as well.

Difference here is that your bottom half is going to be doing e.g. left lead canter and your top half is going to be turning right :cool:

how do YOU ask to change canter lead, is it not move legs and look where you want to go

OK - simplistically yes. But remember that asking a horse for a transition from once pace to another is NOT the same as asking them to stay in a particular pace. So asking a horse to "please canter right" is not the same as "maintain canter right".

but that is the same thing to bring him back on to the long side????
nope because instead of saying "turn right and take right lead" you are going to say "turn right and maintain left lead" - which is something different.

One thing about exercises like this is they demand a whole load more clarity from the rider. How about this one - in trot turn up the centre line. Go straight. Now cue for a chosen canter lead. Do you get the one you asked for ? Quite often we use a short-hand and just say "canter please" and expect the horse to adopt the "correct" lead because of the context of the question e.g. I am on a corner on the left rein, so it must mean left lead. Whereas we should actually be more specific "canter left lead please".

I had an instructor who got me doing a counter canter exercise on a SERPENTINE :eek: It was fiendish and I still can't really recall exactly where all the lead requests were. It was all through walk simple changes, but at one stage I was asking for counter canter on the loop of the serpentine. So the horse was bending and going one way and I had to request counter canter. What was more amazing was I got it !! :p

[cvb]

lets put it another way - How do i stop him from changing canter leads to come BACK in off the loop on to the long side if i am going to
look where i am going (moving shoulders and weight subtly)
move legs to turn, so inside leg goes forward outside leg squeezes to inside leg
tweet reins the way i want to go

is this not all stuff to change canter leg

and why are you moving your legs ???!!!! You don't want the horse to flex around the "inside" leg in this case, you just want them to take a particular direction. Remember you need that "maintain canter lead X" to still be in place ;)

EDIT: tweet the reins... TWEET the reins ??!?!?!! :eek:

[cvb]

http://www.mindspring.com/~jonknop/horse/109601.htm

and from another site 5. Counter-Canter. This is a movement where the rider, for instance on a circle to the left, deliberately makes his horse canter with the right canter lead (with the right fore leading). The counter-canter is a balancing movement. The horse maintains his natural flexion at the poll to the outside of the circle, and the horse is positioned to the side of the leading leg. His conformation does not permit his spine to be bent to the line of the circle. The rider avoiding any contortion causing contraction and disorder should especially endeavour to limit the deviation of the quarters to the outside of the circle and restrict his demands according to the degree of suppleness of the horse.

[Dummer&Drummer]

cbv - got it thank you - on left rein, legs will ask to stay in canter left and upper body will tell him to go right - dont move legs - thats what i wanted to know :) phewwwww

mmm on reflection, that sounds pretty hard, rubbing your tummy and patting your head, gonna be hard as my legs will naturally want to follow the direction to turn and we want them to stay in a left canter position whilst upper body turning right

- but actually at my level of learning counter canter we not 'turning' right cos it is just a shallow loop


THANK YOU :)

[cvb]

No problem :D

Its difficult cos they teach you this whole load of rules (horse must flex to the inside, look where he's going, inside leg etc etc) and then all of a sudden you get to break the whole lot :eek:

[Dummer&Drummer]

thank you all, i did it last night. i cheated a bit, my horse is very uninspired in the all weather arena and tends to leave his breaks on, so i got a lead, a girl was cantering round the all weather so i sneaked in behind for a canter lead, but we did out shallow loops, several times and stayed on the WRONG leg in the RIGHT place :) i can see shallow loops are a good basic start, cant imagine getting my horse to stay in canter on the wrong leg on a 20m circle, but im sure we will both be doing that in time

anyway thank you, i now understand the basic principal of how to do this now with my body - after lots of hard work from you guys :)