Stallion material? comments?

[kunama]

He may be small but what do you think as stallion material? He is two in this pic , and now nearly three will jump 3ft loose, and has exceptional temerment still, so any comments good or bad?

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c142/reductivani/trib.jpg

[FudgieFoo]

How big do you expect him to make?

What are his breeding lines?

Is he currently out with mares?

Also at rising 3 he shouldnt be jumping. it will cause all sorts of problems in the longrun.

[KarinUS]

1. Do you have a view from the side rather than top?
2. What breed is he. The 'experts' will probably want to compare him to that breed standard.

[notpoodle]

dont know anything about breeding im afraid :D but i think he's pretty! his back looks a bit long though.

julia

[kunama]

The loose jumping was his one discrepancey , he jumped out of the feild.

He has no blood lines, but dont be too appauled, surely it should be about his quility not his sire's name.

i think to compare him to a type he'd be a working pony / working hunter pony, he moves dead straight and like a mini warmblood, all up hill and round.I jave shown him in hand twice and he came home res champion the second time. I hadn't thought of keeping him entire but people at the show keept asking if he was covering mares this season to wich i replied no as i will not do anything with him like that unless he passes a stallion gradeing as a four year old. His temperment is sooo good nothing fazes him.

He is currently out with a gelding but is on amixed yard and will behave around mares.

i do not have a better photo yet , but yes in this one he was on an 'out' rather than up stage .

he stands around 12.2hh so i'm hopeing he'll get to 13hh , do you think there is much call for pony stallions?

[Pink's lady]

Other on here will agree with me - stallios used for breeding should be of exceptional quality with no fault. Otherwise it's just irresponsible.

It's hard to tell from that photo, but he doesn't seen to be a shining example of a stallion, and I suspect that many peole have asked about covering because he's coloured.:rolleyes: Some people will use anything if it's couloured:( Having said that, there appears to be nothing 'wrong' with him, although he does look a little long in the back.

Of course, it might be the photo and he may be perfect. However, a stallion often has to lead sad and isolated lives. It's lovely that he's getting out with geldings (as it should be) but what happens if you have to move him? -very few places will take stallions.

[Samantha1980]

Please excuess my ignorance (and spelling) but can you get him stallion graded if you dont know what breed he is? My friend owns a stud and when her stallion went to be graded they had to know his breeding (shetland) so they could grade him on I suppose Shetland standards. This is just how I thought it worked but then this was for a certain breed.

He is a very nice looking pony though. What do you call him?

[linz20]

He Looks Quite Nice. I've Wrk On A Couple Of Studs. And You Need The Blood Lines Or People Aren't Interested. Plus If He Is Registered The Society(which They Need To Be Really) Will Know His Blood Line.

Linz

[Kanuma]

he looks nice but i wouldnt keep him as a stallion. he has no bloodlines thus getting him graded will be impossible whilst he looks a lovely little chappy.
at 13hh for a showring he would be considered as a childs pony, but at most county shows no one under the age of 16 can handle or ride stallions so you will have a problem, and i believe that at local level it is normaly 18 years old! so you would be limiting what you could do with him, limiting his resale value as no one wants a stallion as a kids pony, and limiting him to a lonely existance.
so in essence whilst he is a nice looking little pony he is not nice enough to breed from

[Skyhuntress]

No. I mean he's cute, but he's not an extremely shining example of the pony breed, and with no bloodlines whatsoever, you'll have a hard time getting him approved and an even harder time getting mare owners to breed to him when there ARE so many quality stallions who DO have exceptional bloodlines and talents.

There are far too many people in the world who are like "ya, my colt is cute, let's keep him a stud" and thne you get foals who are "ok" but havent' really inherited anything because the actual sire is useless and his one talent is that he has a nice personality with cute looks.

Now for all I know, your pony might be exceptional. It's hard to judge comformation on a 2 year old, because they are still growing. He does appear to be a little over the knee at the moment, his pasterns look overly long and he looks bum high. On the plus side, he's got a very cute face, I like his neck and shoulder angles and he looks like he'd be a mini power house when you got him under saddle :)

In your position, I'd geld him. Personality isn't enough to keep a colt a stud.

[chev]

For grading he'd go up for grading with CHAPS, where known breeding is not an issue. My coloured cob stallion went for grading with CHAPS with no idea at all of his breeding. It's marked on conformation, temperament, movement and so on but some do feel that the grading doesn't really give such a great idea of quality anyway. Lots of less than brilliant stallions do pass and are licenced. Grading means his offspring could be registered with CHAPS with him down as sire.

He's at an awkward age to be honest. There is a huge demand for good quality coloured pony stallions (like Aquila's Dancer) and no doubt you'd have an awful lot of enquiries if you did stand him at stud, simply because he is coloured. You need to ask if you'd be keeping him entire if he was plain dark bay though - colour is not enough to warrant keeping him entire and with no known breeding, you're at a disadvantage already.

But for me, no, he's not really quite good enough at the moment; he is a little upright in the shoulder, his neck a little weak, his head is a bit too coarse for a pony stallion imho, and he is long in the back.

He does have lovely short cannons and a good bum; but if he was mine I'd be gelding him, sorry.

Tis a tough decision - I have a yearling sec B right now who was bought with the intention of keeping him entire, and even then I find myself thinking very hard about whether he's really up for the job.

[kunama]

Don't panic guys i'm not delusional! i am waying this up very carefully , at the moment being entier is not affecting his quality of life , which is the main reason he is still , the minuite his temperment starts to deteriorate(if) they will be off. I was not aware that stallion gradeings for CHAPS was just a registory thing i thought it was on the quality of the horse and not on its markings and i agree VERY strongly that only the very best should be bred from and was going to use the gradeing as a guide to his quality if he made it that far. i was also unaware that handlers and riders had to be 18 for county shows. I thought it was 11, oh well , i'll see if i can get some better pics so you can see how he's filling out but i am concerned that his back is a little long too.
Equaly though i love my pedigree's i do think that a horse should not be bred from for its bloodlines either, i have seen plenty of nutters by 'good' stallions with pedigrees as long as your arm. It should be about the quality of the individual(which i'm not saying he has) not who his sire and dam are.

[Mehitabel]

Equaly though i love my pedigree's i do think that a horse should not be bred from for its bloodlines either, i have seen plenty of nutters by 'good' stallions with pedigrees as long as your arm. It should be about the quality of the individual(which i'm not saying he has) not who his sire and dam are.


i think it needs to be both. the trouble with a pony of unknown breeding is that you have no idea what he has lurking in his genes. horses often do throw back to their grandparents or even earlier, so if you don't know what they are, you can get nasty surprises if he was a cross between two very diferent types, and not the product of several generations breeding of similar types.

[kunama]

very good point.

[chev]

I was not aware that stallion gradeings for CHAPS was just a registory thing i thought it was on the quality of the horse and not on its markings and i agree VERY strongly that only the very best should be bred from and was going to use the gradeing as a guide to his quality if he made it that far.

It's definitely not just a registry thing; horses are marked out of ten on several different standards (can't remember it all, it's a long time since my cob was put forward) - movement, conformation and temperament being three of them. They must achieve a certain mark to be graded - so it is some guide to quality.

The problem with CHAPS grading is that some feel (and I confess I'm one) that they are rather too forgiving; faults are not always penalised as they should be, especially in those categories where the number of horses put forward is still small (ponies, native types and traditionals being the main culprits). I wouldn't rely on CHAPS grading as a guide to quality, although I'd use a graded stallion in preferance to one not put forward.

i was also unaware that handlers and riders had to be 18 for county shows. I thought it was 11, oh well , i'll see if i can get some better pics so you can see how he's filling out but i am concerned that his back is a little long too.

They don't. They have to be 12. He can still be shown under saddle by someone of 12 or over, he can be driven, and he can be shown in-hand - my potential stallion will likely mature at around 12.2hh, but he will still go out under saddle at least. I do feel very strongly that stallions should have some kind of performance record if they're to be used for breeding, not just an in-hand record. His back is unlikely to look any shorter as he gets older now. Horses mature from the legs up, so his back is actually the last part to stop growing. It's also the case that stallions' growth plates tend to close more quickly than geldings' - all to do with testosterone and its effects - so geldings tend to end up leggier and slightly lighter than stallions, who usually mature with more chunk but shorter legs. So if a colt is slightly long-backed to start with, keeping him entire means he has a greater chance of staying that way, whereas having him cut sometimes means that he evens out better.

Equaly though i love my pedigree's i do think that a horse should not be bred from for its bloodlines either, i have seen plenty of nutters by 'good' stallions with pedigrees as long as your arm. It should be about the quality of the individual(which i'm not saying he has) not who his sire and dam are.

Yes and no. Given the choice between a decent stallion of unknown breeding with a good record and lots of equally decent progeny and a stallion who can trace his ancestry back to the bronze age but no talent and average progeny - well I know which I'd choose. But that said, there are still the risks that Mehitabel points out, and the fact that certain lines do tend to throw certain characteristics - and by knowing what background and breeding a stallion has, I have a better chance of choosing one that should nick well with my mares. Bloodlines and pedigrees fulfill much more than just snobbery. ;)

[kunama]

I didnt know that cutting him may help with the back thing, but i do have to say it is a poor photo of him, i definately do NOT want him to go to a gradeing and pass just because he is in a minority. i will take more pictures this weekend and post them so you can have a better look. it'd be nice to know what you think he's worth?

[shandy84]

I personally wouldn't stand him at all, there are far too many unregistered foals going for nothing money at sales and you couldn't command a high fee for him mainly because of bloodlines but also because he hasn't done anything yet.

I am a firm believer that if you keep a colt entire he must be given a job because if not from what I have heard that is when they can become unruly. TBH I can really imagine him looking striking under saddle or in harness. Good Luck with your decision

[Wally]

How can you grade for action where there is no bred type mentioned? Hackney vs Welsh A???? what is the judge looing for??

[kunama]

Shandy84, he's staying entier at the moment because he is sooo quiet you'd never know he is entier and yes i want to see him do some thing i did not mean just put him up at stud, he would have to have ,
passed a gradeing and got a high score
been compeating succesfully in whatever dicipline he turns his hoof too
retained a temperment that is one suitiable fo a childs pony , as due to his hight that is what he is

Wally , what is the judge looking for? i think we'd all like to know the answer to that one! i have often wondered how judges judge , particularly in large mixed classes. a very tricky job made harder by people like me eh!!!

[Wally]

I was asked to judge a show class, I had to pick the "best" There was a Pure Shire, a Pure Highland, a Shetland a Warmblood jumping mare of fantastic breeding, erm there was a TB ex racer and Arab just to mention a few, now tell me how to pic the best?????

[kunama]

i do not know how you do it !!!!!!!

I love talking to the judge after a show particularly a good one that gives you a realy objective opinion! Gives you some thing to work on for next time.
Can't stand it when they pic thier freinds tho. I was at a show recently and this horse was in almost every in hand class, it won every class because they are freinds with the judge, it was in the ring with a pure bred county standard welsh D, and a fortnight later one of the horses it 'beat' went out and won at a county show. It wasn't even totally sound!!, it is a shame as it puts people off showing. i'd rather come last in a class because i'm rubbish than win because i know the judge.

[blackhorses]

I think he is a lovely looking pony, but to be honest I would not breed from him, even though he has a nice temprament now once he starts covering mares that quite often changes thier temprament and you would probably not be able to keep him with geldings only mares. You also have to think of where you would cover mares - have you got space to keep other peoples mares, you would need the stallion blood testing and swabing for various diseases every year, you would also have to ensure mare owners do the same - which most mare owners are reluctant to do because it costs money especially for ponies. Also most insurance companies charge higher rates for stallions. I speak from experiance as I breed horses and it can be a nightmare dealing with other peoples animals. Also we bought a TB stallion a year ago, he was so quiet and really calm as he had never covered a mare before, you could do anything with him and be around other horses without him batting an eyelid, after he covered his first mare it dawned on him that he was a stallion and he would not eat and spent all day running round his stable,he destroyed 3 stable doors and spent all day screaming which drove our other 2 stallions mad, we ran him with a mare to see if he would calm down and he would not stop humping her and he started to get vicious with her! We had to seperate him after 3 weeks and had to isolate him totally from other horses, as he would not eat anything and looked like an RSPCA case despite being on a dustbin full of weightgain mix a week and good grazing!. I know this is an extreme example but it can happen. You should think long and hard before you go down the breeding route with a horse and the later you leave gelding him the harder it is for them to forget they are a stallion.

[chev]

blackhorses, I totally disagree. I too have owned stallions, who covered mares, and worked extensively with studs who kept stallions. Most (not all, obviously, but definitely most) stallions were happy turned out with a gelding or two, and none became any less 'nice' or manageable once they started stud duties.

The last stallion I owned was cut at eight after an extensive career - he covered in-hand and ran with mares. He was cut in late autumn and turned out with a mixed herd of mares and geldings the following spring - no problems at all.

Current YO has a gelding who was also late cut after a very busy career as a stallion; he doesn't tolerate colts too happily but is absolutely fine turned out with mares and geldings.

A stallion who is brought up with manners and treated fairly, like a horse, not a 'stallion :eek: ' will nearly always remain a pleasant horse to be around whether he covers or not.

If a previously nice stallion becomes less manageable later in life I'd be inbclined to think it's down to his lifestyle - not the fact that he's entire.

[Kanuma]

must agree with chev, 2 of my geldings were cut late one we know has offspring, whilst both are larger then the other geldings, both ar as soft as butter, they are turned out together and with several other geldings, stan was cut at 5 i think but whilst he is difficult to introduce to others and gets overprotective of mares he has bee turned out with other geldings no problem has taken a shine to 2 of them and can be seen grooming a little sec a gelding who was cut a few months ago
Rian was cut at 7 he has offspring, he has the stallion crest and manners around mares, but you can handle him with a peice of string around his neck! my little brother has handled him no problems and he is much much easier to handle then anything els on the yard!

ive got a friend who also has a gelding who was cut at 8, he is a sweetheart and is currently being handled and ridden by an 8 yearold! he is 14.2hh

[kunama]

I totally agree with Chev and Kanuma, any stallion is a horse first and though they need to be treated with respect should not be trated to much different from any other horse. I think any horse would go loopy if keeped seperate from others, not riden , handled by people who are afraid of it e.c.t. There was a welsh D stallion on our yard who was turned out with another stallion , covering mares in hand and being shown in hand and under saddle and he retained his temprement the whole time , bar the odd love noises to mares on the yard! I will keep tribble entier untill (if) it begins to affect his temperment ,( at the moment there is a little girl who weighs all of 4.5 stone that sees to him under supervision) untill then i will keep you up dated on his development , because all objective comments are grately recived!!

Took some pics of him troting today, but will not be able to download till monday so look out!!! One day entier or not Tribble will rule the world, well no one's told him he's not 16.2hh!!!!!!!

[blackhorses]

This was an example of what can go wrong, I have 2 other stallions which are both run with mares and are so easy to handle we just cover visiting mares with a headcollar on and we can put little children on the back of our Arab with no tack and he will just follow us around. Most of the stallions I have encountered at most other studs have been kept in the "traditional" way ie. completely isolated from people and other horses as people are scared of them, and surprise surprise they go mad.
Our TB had come from a racing background and we found out after we bought him that he was beaten at his previous home and had not been let out of his stable for a year! We gave him a year to settle into a normal life but he could not cope, I am not saying that it happens to all stallions but be aware thier personality can change.
Also alot of people still have this strange attitude towards stallions, there are no shows in Cumbria that will take stallions we have to go out of the county and it is becoming harder to find shows that will even take entire yearlings let alone adult stallions.
I have a gelding who was gelded at the age of 5 having covered mares, we had him done because he was also beaten by his previous owner who had bought him for the whole matcho image of having a black stallion, he was quite an agressive horse when he was entire so we gelded him and now he is really quiet but doesn't like men.
I was just trying to put aross that owning a stallion can be a disadvantage and is a big responsibility we have 6 foot high fencing around all our paddocks just incase there are any mares in season near by as even a quiet stallion can be tempted and could get loose! I'm not saying that entires are a bad thing at all you just have to be more aware of other horses and peoples attitude to stallions, not everybody sees them as just a horse as they should be.:)

[chev]

I was just trying to put aross that owning a stallion can be a disadvantage and is a big responsibility we have 6 foot high fencing around all our paddocks just incase there are any mares in season near by as even a quiet stallion can be tempted and could get loose! I'm not saying that entires are a bad thing at all you just have to be more aware of other horses and peoples attitude to stallions, not everybody sees them as just a horse as they should be.:)

Do agree with that :D

But comments like "even though he has a nice temprament now once he starts covering mares that quite often changes thier temprament and you would probably not be able to keep him with geldings only mares." really didn't come across like that, especially when kunama was asking about the colt's suitability for use as a stallion, not about managment issues.

[kunama]

I quiet agree with blackhorses opinion that stallion owners need to be aware of others attitudes, and act responsiably abouth how they are kept. If i did not feel i could facilitate for a stallion big or small i would not consider it at all. I do apreceate some management comments but it's not realy an issue yet and if it becomes one i.e. if he started covering mares, then there is already a stallion owner o our yard who's brain i can pic, still any tricks of the trade would be nice!

i will down load pics later as camera is chargeing and you can get an idea of how he moves.

Also any ideas on ways to thin that shrub thats his mane as haveing tried pulling it wich he HATES i am a bit stuck, how do you use a thinning comb?

[santana]

you got a pic of his head ???????? and From the front????? soi we can see his chest , legs ect
rosie

[kunama]

Have a look at the thread 'more pics of my not so potentail stallion', there are no pics of his chest but you can fit a hand width and a bit between his front legsand he is straight, i'll take some pics of them on sat for you and post them there!