Restless horses hacking?

[Skib]

OKay its the weekend and a lovely day - so people will be riding rather than on the internet. But at some point, I'd like some advice please on how to establish control of a horse with too much forward energy.
When I was handed my favourite mare yesterday the previous rider told me she'd been too eager and hard to manage. I thought nothing of this till we got to the place where we usually canter, and she was raring to go. But I was with a new escort who said the ground was too hard.
I held her back till he said we could canter, then let her go and boy did she run. I couldn't stop her or even slow her till the very end of the stretch - not helped by the fact that the rest of the ride did not follow. After that, I found it very hard to settle her.
I rode her in a little circle to get her attention back on me but my escort ticked me off. Said circling would help her go faster on the straight? At one point I got a controlled trot out of her but that was only an interlude.
I would like a lot of suggestions please about what I should have done to calm her?
She wasnt dangerous. She kept to the track. She has a lovely canter. But she had no brakes. She offered canter at any moment even on the tarmac, and when we got to the sand canter stretch (the normal canter place) she was off again, again on her own and unstoppable till she got to the end.
Yet seen from her point of view, she was only doing what I had asked her to do the previous time we went out. She offered what I asked for last time when I was out with a young instructor who knows me well and we cantered faster and farther than usual, partly for fun as a joke, but partly to educate me, to show me I could now ride like that.
The difference yesterday was that I was out with other people and an instructor who regarded me as incompetent. Which basicly I suppose I was. Because the mare had taught me that she had the upper hand.

[Big Ears]

put it into context, it was a colder day, frosty, the mare hasn't probably had as much work as the ground has been hard, and has been standing in more so she is fresher and more active

even Rosie Posie who is very laid back managed to have a kangaroo bucking session last weekend, as she is only ridden at weekends now, and is in at night, well fed and feeling well up for it.

so it isn't just your control but the horse was feeling more wizzy. it is a problem with riding school horses that they associate certain parts of a ride with a speed - I never ever do the same thing in the same place with Rosie so she never expect oh this is where we trot, this is where we canter. This is where I buck mummy off! I used to ride an old horse who was very wizzy and I deliberately NEVER cantered him where he wanted to or expected to as he would cart you - i would choose other places.

you have the problem that being part of a ride like that you aren't able to dictate what you do, and the horses also tend to 'expect it' and over ride the rider instructions a lot of time.

i would have also circled if run away with so i think you were right though Humphrey, the old fellow, could gallop very well in a circle as I found out when we did 4 circuits of a field one day before I could stop him - no point in aiming him at a fence as he was an ex grade A and would just have popped over a 5 bar gate without turning a hair!

[Harry Hobbes]

I would like a lot of suggestions please about what I should have done to calm her?Okay; but just remember, you asked for it.
I'd like some advice please on how to establish control of a horse with too much forward energy.
Before I get into tips and techniques to help you resolve the immediate problem, you should understand that we need to address the underlying issue with this horse. From your post, it appears that this horse is not a “happy hacker”; that it is not calm and relaxed while hacking. Obtaining that calmness and relaxation should be the primary training objective. In other words, one trains the horse to the calm and relaxed while hacking. I suspect that this is not on the agenda when you’re hacking with your group, so I won’t go into how to accomplish this unless you wish that dissertation.

So how to resolve your immediate problem of influencing a horse that is running away with you? (Yes, the horse is actually running away with you: if it is moving off and not responding to your cues, it is a runaway, regardless of gait.)

First let’s establish the premise: You cannot directly control any sound and healthy horse; you can only influence its actions; in other words, influence it to cooperate. (If you don't believe this, then grab hold of one of its feet, and control that foot for the next hour; or, pull back on the reins to get it to stop when it’s not cooperating.)

One influences the horse first with cues, and if that does not work, then by using the horse’s body/strength against itself so that it learns the futility of not responding. If the horse is non-responsive to your cues, then you need to progress immediately to using the horse’s body/strength against itself.

In the situation you describe, there are several methods to use the horse’s body against itself so that it decides that it is in its best interest to slow down, and become responsive to your cues:

Number one: Pick up one rein and bend the horse’s head right or left about eight to 12 inches, and hold that bend until such time as a horse transitions down to the speed that you want. Repeat as necessary.

Number two: Using the same rein action as in number one, above, put the horse in a circle and allow the horse to dissipate its emotional energy by riding in a circle. In other words, the course goes round and round and round until it figures out it’s not getting anywhere; and at that point and time it will change what it was doing, typically it with transition down.

Number three: If you have the space and time, let the horse run to its heart’s content. One merely gives the horse its head, on a loose rein, it allows the horse to run. This is the technique that we typically use on open ground such as range land where the horse is overly excited, and needs to dissipate its emotional energy. Of course, this requires open space suitable for galloping; and a rider that can stay in the saddle at the gallop.

Number four: Pick up one rein, and put the horse in a one-rein stop. Repeat as necessary.

Of the four techniques listed above, the best from the horse’s perspective is number three; because you are allowing the horse the time and space to learn to manage one of its instincts so that it no longer feels the need to run away; and the horse learning to manage its instincts goes to the very foundation of a developing a solid citizen.
When I was handed my favourite mare yesterday the previous rider told me she'd been too eager and hard to manage. So the previous rider is riding a horse that he/she does not know how to influence. (Analogous to flying a jet fighter that one does not know how to manipulate.)
I held her back till he said we could canter, then let her go and boy did she run.
This is good from her perspective: she's resolving her problem as Mother Nature programmed her.
I couldn't stop her or even slow her till the very end of the stretch - not helped by the fact that the rest of the ride did not follow. After that, I found it very hard to settle her.
At this point, I would have turned her around and galloped her back the other direction when whence we came – at full speed. Then, after she transitioned down (or slowed down sufficiently), I would turn her around again, and galloped her back the original direction - again at full speed. About the third time she galloped back and forth, the horse will begin to see the futility of all that galloping. At that point, the horse would be much more responsive to my cues. We use this same technique in mountain and hill country for the same “control problem” by galloping the horse up and down hills. About the third time the horse goes up the hill, the horse comes to the conclusion that it would rather walk on calmly and relaxed. No fighting, hitting, jerking on the mouth occurred, so the horse had no fight with the rider; it was fighting itself, and it learned not to.
I rode her in a little circle to get her attention back on me but my escort ticked me off.
So you performed technique Number two, above. Very good.

Too bad the "escort" is more concerned about achieving his/her agenda, than getting cooperation from the horse (and your enjoyment of the ride).
Said circling would help her go faster on the straight?
Balderdash!

Ask this "escort" to prove the proposition. And you should carefully scrutinize his/her premise. (If you ask this of the escort, he/she will probably look at you with that "deer in the headlights" look.)
But she had no brakes.Yep.

Automobiles have brakes; airplanes have brakes; bicycles have brakes; but animals do not have brakes; which is why it is so unproductive to attempt to apply brakes on any horse. Step on the brake pedal (pull back on its mouth), and the horse does not stop. Why not? Because a horse is not a mechanical object with brakes.

What animals do have is will power; hence the need to influence their actions. (Such as influencing a horse to stop.)
Yet seen from her point of view, she was only doing what I had asked her to do the previous time we went out. She offered what I asked for last time when I was out with a young instructor who knows me well and we cantered faster and farther than usual, partly for fun as a joke, but partly to educate me, to show me I could now ride like that. This demonstrates the downside of never breaking the pattern.

When you establish with the horse that there are few patterns, and many new things to encounter, the horse will learn to adapt to changing situations; but more importantly, it will learn to be responsive to you in different circumstances, and depend upon you for cues/leadership in new situations. In other words, the more new things that you and the horse do, the more the horse learns to depend upon you leadership. This is good.The difference yesterday was that I was out with other people and an instructor who regarded me as incompetent.
I think "escort" is more descriptive of this person; "instructor" implies that the person is ready, willing, and able to teach something. Clearly, this is not the case.
Because the mare had taught me that she had the upper hand.Hopefully she also taught you that she has no components labeled "brakes"; and that if you want to be successful with her, you need to influence her will.

Best regards,
Harry

[pedantic]

Sigh, so many people saying different things, escort says one thing someone else says something else, thing is different horses respond to different things just like people plus everyones ability weakness's and strenghts are different as well, once my daughters Hafflinger sets her neck NOBODY could bend it, my Po can canter with his head bent round if he wants and if you keep up the pressure he bucks, if I feel he is getting too upset to the point of bolting I stick his face into a hedge or brick wall if available, I would rather handle his bucking and rearing than flying across a field with bucks thrown in for good measure.
Seem to be finding so many different opinions with everything horsey, some poo poo my treeless saddle, everyone thinks their farrier, chiropractor whatever is the best and better than anyone elses, should use this feed or that feed.
If it isn't your horse to do what you want with then unfortunately you will have to do what the "escort" tells you, if he hasn't got any sensible orders then maybe time to try a different riding school.

[Skib]

Thank you big ears for putting it in context and harry for a real riding lesson full of wisdom.

Forget the instructor - I wont be going out with him again. Someone asked to visit and ride with me on a day when my regular people were away. This guy shouted out too when she cantered off, and that accelerated her.

The bending and emergency rein, I know about. But I have never had to use. A bit like an emergency stop in the car, I reserve them until real danger. Our track loops round – about 4 miles, so it is leading nowhere
It was more that I didnt know what to do when she stopped. Turning her and making her go back again is a great idea. Thank you. I couldnt be angry. But I wanted there to be consequences. I will do that next time. And take back control.
I wasn’t worried while cantering. But I was nervous she might do it again heading home, this time towards a dangerous situation where there were cars and roads. So I refused to trot as we returned to the yard. And wasn’t sure whether to ride in my usual soft way or shorten the reins and stiffen up.

Obtaining that calmness and relaxation should be the primary training objective. In other words, one trains the horse to the calm and relaxed while hacking. I suspect that this is not on the agenda when you’re hacking with your group, so I won’t go into how to accomplish this unless you wish that dissertation.

If you have time one day, harry, yes please. I usually ride alone with a co-operative teacher, so I can do intelligent stuff with her. I've taught her to back up and to do transitions with the least little touch (as in NH and as I am taught in my lessons). This mare is a favourite of mine because she does offer movement. But I don’t want to encourage her to take off without proper permission.

And what you already wrote me has been great.

[Harry Hobbes]

The bending and emergency rein, I know about. But I have never had to use. A bit like an emergency stop in the car…There's a major misconception extant regarding these two maneuvers; they are not only for an emergency; and they are not fast and dangerous unless the rider performs them fast and dangerous.

Here's the $64,000 question: What's the difference (when driving an automobile) between a normal stop and an emergency stop?

Understand the fundamental difference in its predominate aspects, apply it to the equine training context, and you may very well be miles ahead of your instructors.

While we all thinking that question over, I'll explain something relevant to the issue:

Both the bend and the one-rein stop are basic and fundamental "influence" (i.e., indirect control) maneuvers. Either can and should be used in an emergency to slow or disengage the hindquarters, but although one may use them in an emergency, they are not "emergency maneuvers" - they are influence maneuvers for everyday riding. The premise in the "emergency stop" context is that if you condition yourself and your horse to bend and transition down, then when the flag flies, both your and your horse's response will be automatic (i.e., conditioned responses).

But before these maneuvers are conditioned into the horse and rider, we do them slow and methodical, which gives the horse plenty of time to realize that something is happening, and mentally work though its options. So if Missy bolts forward because the big scary Jack Rabbit jumped out from under the Sage Brush, I casually pick up one rein and bend her slightly (six inch maximum) until she thinks through the problem and transitions down. (Actually, she no longer jumps because of Jack Rabbits; it's those horse-eating llamas that freak her out now.)

In fact we train the horse for both the bend and the one-rein stop first at the halt, afterwards progressing to the walk, and then the faster gaits when the horse and rider are proficient at the walk. Then, one of the last things we do before starting a road/trail ride (or any other work), is to check the bend and disengagement of the hindquarters with the one-rein stop. (Just like we "check the brakes" before we drive on to the M1.)

So if you pick up one rein and slowly apply a slight bend (say an eight-inch bend over a five second period: "one one-thousand, two one-thousand,…five one-thousand") and then hold the bend until the horse responds properly, the effect is not a dramatic blast-off, blow-up, or fight; it is an exercise - an exercise just like any other exercise that you and the horse must work through. When the horse does that for which you offered the bend, then you give the horse the universal reward (the release).

One gets into trouble with these maneuvers only if one has not conditioned oneself and the horse for a bend, and then pulls the horse significantly and fast. In other words, one gets into trouble with highly reactive (quantitatively speaking) actions. (similar to slamming on the brakes of an automobile.)

Notice that I differentiated between "bend" and "pull". Do you understand the difference? (It is a very important difference - the difference between influencing the horse and trying to control the horse; and the latter usually ends with a fight or a wreck.)

I'll be so bold to say that the folks that are telling you and the remainder of the world that a one-rein stop is only for emergencies do not understand the inherent difference between those two words (in the equine context), the underlying training principle, and the difference in application; and therefore cannot differentiate between those actions when working with the horse.
It was more that I didnt know what to do when she stopped. Turning her and making her go back again is a great idea. Thank you. I couldnt be angry. But I wanted there to be consequences. I will do that next time. And take back control.Why not try to be influential? Remember: you cannot stop a sound and healthy horse from moving (if you could, then you'd definitely be in control); you can only change its mind - if you are influential.

The consequences should be in the form of her having to do much more of the running than she really wanted to do; on the order of: "Gee! You really want to run? Okay then. Let's keep running! Go! Go! Go!

You give her much more of what she did than she really wanted to do; until she gets to the point where her actions and demeanor are saying: "Alright already! Can't we just slow down?". Of course you then say: "Oh, you really don't want to run off any more? Okay, let's walk." (Tootsie learned this training technique two years ago when Bonfire would not stand still for grooming: Mr. B. wouldn't stand still, so he then had to move so much that he just changed his mind and wanted to just stand there and get brushed.)
I was nervous she might do it again heading home, this time towards a dangerous situation where there were cars and roads. So I refused to trot as we returned to the yard. Anytime the horse rushes, put it to work doing something, so that it makes the connection between rushing and working. (The galloping exercise in my first post above is an example of putting the horse to work.)

When returning to the barn, it is best to return slow and relaxed, because we do not want to train the horse to rush back home. If the horse starts rushing once you've turned for home, then you have to intervene in a way to influence the horse not to rush. Because the horse is pointed toward the barn, it is not a good idea to cause the horse to rush even more while pointed toward home (by asking for a gallop when pointed toward home), unless you can rush right past the barn and out the other direction from the barn, and keep on going.

Or, if the horse rushes back to the barn, immediately go to work on riding exercises for about 30 minutes at the barn, so the horse understands that rushing back results in more work.

One of the basic exercises that I do anytime the horse rushes to turn into the barn premises, is to ride right on by the entrance; say about 100 meters past. Then, reverse and ride right on past the entrance again another 100 meters. I ride the horse back and forth past the entrance to the premises as many times as it takes to get the horse responsive and not rushing. Usually this requires no more than ten minutes of riding back and forth. (This is just another variation of the Cloverleaf Pattern.)

It's amazing how quickly they catch on that if they rush, they work more.
And wasn’t sure whether to ride in my usual soft way or shorten the reins and stiffen up.I realize that it's a cultural difference, but you should try to ride on a loose rein at all times until you ask the horse to do something different. In other words, the reins (and your legs) are only for cueing a change; they shouldn't be used for nursing/nagging/constraining the horse; nor as an emotional (security) crutch for the horse or whomever.

If you are riding along a path/trail/road, the horse should be doing the last thing that you asked without your constant hanging on her mouth nor squeezing her flanks. You pick up the reins and cue the horse to do something, and then when she does it, you drop the reins and leave her alone - and just ride balanced. This applies to gait, speed and direction.

For example, when I ride Missy across the prairie, I ride on a loose rein. I look at the point way over yonder where I want to go, and if I feel her deviate from the direct path, I pick up one rein and bend her back on to the path; then I drop the rein. When they are first learning the discipline to not change directions on their own volition, all horses bounce left and right and are all over the place - zig-zagging hither and yon. But as I consistently correct every deviation from the path, the horses learn the discipline of following my feel (of where I'm looking). The next thing you know, the horses are traveling a direct path across a trackless prairie - the path to the point that I'm looking.

I'll get to work on that other dissertation.

Best regards,
Harry

[Harry Hobbes]

How to Train the Horse for Calmness and Relaxation While Hacking

Horses are natural wanderers, and spending a lot of time traveling over territory is very much in their genes. Horses that are kept out in pasture or open range are typically calmer and more settled than horses that live their lives in confinement.

So the key to getting them to relax is to cater to their natural need to wander by traveling often and far; by getting them "out of the house" so to speak. (This is why Tom Booker was always riding his young colts out on the open range in the movie "The Horse Whisperer".)

The key to obtaining calmness and relaxation in the horse while hacking is to make hacking very much an experience of traveling, with some amount of wandering (i.e., exploring), rather than a short duration performance activity engaged in once in a while for the pleasure of the rider. In other words, make every hack a training exercise wherein you are, or are simulating traveling over many miles in the open, so that your horse may realize the benefits of satisfying its instincts.

Some techniques to achieve this are:

1. Exposure to many different stimuli. This means that you ride with the intent of exposing the horse to many different sights, sounds and experiences, rather than avoiding them. You make a point of it. If you see something happening over there, ride your horse over there to see what's going on; and let the horse soak it all in. If you encounter a stream, ride in it/across it. If you can ride under a bridge, do so; or across the bridge; or both. If you encounter a ditch, ride across the ditch.

2. Exposure to different places (and things). Go exploring with your horse. Try to go over different routes without analyzing the routes beforehand, so that you are truly exploring while riding. If you ride into an area that has no safe way out, reverse course and explore a way around the area. Test many different routes.

You accomplish this by riding to different places via different routes. This very much relates to breaking the hacking pattern, and going in new directions, to new places. It also gives your horse a job to do not unlike certain aspects of moving cows on the range, and requires it to think.

3. Ride twenty miles. At least once per month (twice per month would be better), you should ride fifteen to twenty miles across country or over various travel routes. This is the most effective way to settle any horse.

A sound adult horse should easily be able to carry you twenty miles in about three-to-four hours of alternate walking and trotting (trot two miles, walk one, lead one mile, etc.). If your horse is stabled, then twenty miles is about all you want to ask of it, because it will not be in optimum condition (because of all that standing around in a small enclosed area). (Whereas, a sound and range-conditioned ranch horse, such as those you encountered on your holiday to the U.S., can do thirty miles or more in a day's work.)

4. Train in the open. Train your horse for your normal school movements and exercises out in an open area, such as a heath or meadow, rather than in an arena. Ride the horse out to the open area, and train out there, away from the normal equestrian training area. Anything that you do in an arena can be done in an open field. (I learned to trot circles on the side of a slope on the open range; and we teach nervous horses to trot and lope circles out on the range, in the open.)

5. Stand your horse. Periodically, while far from the stables, stop your horse for 20-30 minutes and watch the world go by. For example, stop your horse at an intersection where you can get out of the way of traffic, and you and the horse just stand there and relax. (You stay mounted.) Your horse may not want to stand still and try to walk off because it is nervous and wants to get moving (toward home of course), so you'll have to practice circles with the horse at that spot until it is ready to stand still. Then just stand there and watch the world go by; on a loose rein of course.

When your horse will stand in place for 30 minutes at a busy intersection without correction, you will have a fairly relaxed horse; a horse that is not prone to bolt off. (Note: Standing still means that it doesn't walk off/leave. It does not mean that it isn't allowed to shift its weight and move its feet to get comfortable while its standing there.)

Close

By doing number three, you also accomplish number one and some amount of number two; so number three is the best solution for this training. But if you cannot do number three, then you can still accomplish numbers one, two and four; it'll just require many more rides; and number five can (and should) be done with any of the other four.

But whichever technique you choose, you should always strive to ride the horse so that it works up a healthy sweat every time. That is, it gets a good physical workout. So if you ride for only one hour, you should mostly trot, with some loping.

The upshot is that the horse should experience a lot of "wet saddle blankets" by doing a lot of traveling (mostly on that loose rein that we wrote about earlier).

Use these techniques and ride a lot of miles with the horse, and you'll end up with a calm and relaxed horse with which to hack; and you'll have few of the problems that most people encounter when hacking.

Best regards,
Harry

[Big Ears]

Harry I think Rosie cob has read your post. We go out for 2-3 hours each time hacking, and go lots of different routes - we tend to box her and make her walk home from wherever. So often like on Sunday she starts off from somewhere she has never been until she reaches a point where she recognises where she is - with great sigh of relief.

She stops about every 10 minutes to take in the view - we have to stand and look in all directions, clocking it all, then when she is ready, off we go again. She is the most placid hack, totally bombproof even when pheasants fly up under her! but she wants to go up every gateway, every driveway, look in every garden - had a lot of bother preventing her from going into a farm to check out the cows which were in the yard. She is so nosy.

I let her stand and stare whenever she wants. She has a very good memory and can work out exactly how far we are from home. She never gets anxious and just does her equine tourist bit wherever we go. We went to the beach once and the tide was in, so we rode round the town centre, up housing estates, along the shop parade, and she loved it as she is very nosy - went past an amusement arcade, wanted to go in and play poker!

[Skib]

Harry. Thank you very much for both these posts. I need time to go through them and even more time to ride with them.
About the "emergency" stop. You are so right. I didnt understand at all. Your post taught me a great deal and I need to think it out.
However, at this point, I have to confess (since you are taking so much trouble to teach me and others who read these posts) that I dont understand what is meant "by disengaging the hind quarters" of a horse.
The reason I delayed thanking you for the first post was that I was searching this site and my books for the answer. I am not the first to ask, but the only references I can find show ground work where someone is teaching the stationary horse to shift his hind quarters away from them. And I cant picture what is meant if the horse was in flight?
Most of what you explained was new to me. I had not understood what you have explained, that a slight flexing of the neck might slow the horse. I may even have accidentally used this remedy. At one point there was a fork and if she had continued straight ahead we might have ended in the road. So I asked her to take the right fork, just a touch on the right rein and my left leg back, and miraculously she took notice, took the right fork and shortly afterwards came to a stop. I guess that illustrates all you said, about the horse coming back to you by responding to a normal cue?
But can you describe please what might happen if one gently bent the neck to one side when on a track which had no fork? Will the cantering horse leave the track and start a circle? If, say, there is tarmac to one side of the sand track and a ditch on the other, my main thought is to keep her on the sand.

[Tootsie4U]

I dont understand what is meant "by disengaging the hind quarters" of a horse.
...the only references I can find show ground work where someone is teaching the stationary horse to shift his hind quarters away from them. And I cant picture what is meant if the horse was in flight?

I'll give this a go until Harry chimes in.

Disengaging the hindquarters is a yielding exercise. Its somewhat an advanced yielding exercise because the horse won't yield his hindquarters if he isnt yielding in all other places of his body (including his mind!!!)

As with any and almost all exercises, it is easier taught on the ground which is why you have seen it in that context. But, as with the emergency one rein stop, its not automatic. It has to be conditioned in the horse until it becomes an *automatic* response. Not until you have the horse disengaging 110% on the ground should you try it in the saddle and then put it into practice in real life conditions (when the horse is in flight).

Disengagin the HQ looks like a very obvious pronounced stepping under of the nearest hind leg (when you are on the ground). More than just a leg yield or even turn on the forehand. The hind end almost snaps away from you and the neck is bent to the inside of the turn.

The theory of disengaging the HQ is that if the HQ are disengaged (essentially going sideways), the horse cannot go forward. He cannot step sideways this way while still going forward. So, its a good thing to practice for run aways.

For more detail, John Lyons teaches this as a fundamental part of his NH techniques. Try googling under his name with a focus on Disengaging the HQ. At least until Harry gets here to fill in the parts I left out.

[cvb]

Hi Skib

What Harry et al say is all good. But you are/were also in a situation where you are on a school/hired horse, and there is a ride leader. This limits what prevention and preparation you can do to train this horse, and yourself, to do (or not do) certain things.

So some added ideas:-

Harry said Number one: Pick up one rein and bend the horse’s head right or left about eight to 12 inches, and hold that bend until such time as a horse transitions down to the speed that you want. Repeat as necessary.


Right - now will you ask for the flex, you can also stroke the horse with the other hand. This does two things - allows the horse to make the bend, and also calms both horse and rider. It can start being a really small stroke at the wither - like a massge just in front of the saddle across the mane. Keep it slow and calm. Ideally you should be able to calm enough to make the stroke bigger and on the neck itself. This is good for when you have control but the horse is still "uptight".

If your horse has a stiff and a soft side, start with the flex to the soft side as they will probably brace on the stiff/hard side.

and don't forget to breathe ;)

My mother used to distract my old fellow from trotting off at a particular corner by feeding him a polo :cool: it got the flexion as described above, distracted him, and got him past the flash point :D

Talk to them - tell fairytales, sing songs (not so easy in company)

Lots and lots of half-halts - this fits in with Harry's comment about riding on a loose rein (or take that as a light contact).

I also used leg yield and shoulder-fore quite a lot - distract them and make them WORK !! I would be weaving to and fro across a straight track - straight lines tend to allow a horse like this to brace and accelerate.

If the reins slip, bridge them. I was taught a method I think steeplechaser use to keep the head and neck soft in canter - this prevents the brace-and-go tendency as if their head and neck are soft they can't do that ;) I may have to demo that sometime rather than describe it....

[ajhainey]

I think you did the best you could given the way group rides on school horses are - there is a limit to what can be done in a group ride on a horse you don't own. I have had success with both force (sheer terror heading into forest leading me to ask very harshly for a stop and yell DON'T YOU DARE!) and the 'get a response to any aid and you get your breaks back' (nice clear path - asked for more speed and confused the poor chap into slowing down I think)

I am intrigued by this comment though?

"I couldn't stop her or even slow her till the very end of the stretch - not helped by the fact that the rest of the ride did not follow."

The only time I have really feared for my brakes was when others have accompanied me on my charge for the hills? In fact if one of the horses does bolt off in our group they always are asked to return to us, never us go after them, and certainly not at anything above a fast walk? So I'm interested you think she would have been better if the others had cantered with you? Why?

aj xx

[sidesaddlelady1]

OKay its the weekend and a lovely day - so people will be riding rather than on the internet. But at some point, I'd like some advice please on how to establish control of a horse with too much forward energy.
When I was handed my favourite mare yesterday the previous rider told me she'd been too eager and hard to manage. I thought nothing of this till we got to the place where we usually canter, and she was raring to go. But I was with a new escort who said the ground was too hard.
I held her back till he said we could canter, then let her go and boy did she run. I couldn't stop her or even slow her till the very end of the stretch - not helped by the fact that the rest of the ride did not follow. After that, I found it very hard to settle her.
I rode her in a little circle to get her attention back on me but my escort ticked me off. Said circling would help her go faster on the straight? At one point I got a controlled trot out of her but that was only an interlude.
I would like a lot of suggestions please about what I should have done to calm her?
She wasnt dangerous. She kept to the track. She has a lovely canter. But she had no brakes. She offered canter at any moment even on the tarmac, and when we got to the sand canter stretch (the normal canter place) she was off again, again on her own and unstoppable till she got to the end.
Yet seen from her point of view, she was only doing what I had asked her to do the previous time we went out. She offered what I asked for last time when I was out with a young instructor who knows me well and we cantered faster and farther than usual, partly for fun as a joke, but partly to educate me, to show me I could now ride like that.
The difference yesterday was that I was out with other people and an instructor who regarded me as incompetent. Which basicly I suppose I was. Because the mare had taught me that she had the upper hand.

Turning into a circle has always been the recommended method for dealing with a bolting horse. It sounds as though she was a bit "corned up", although wind or frosty weather can wind horses up.

[Harry Hobbes]

We went to the beach once and the tide was in, so we rode round the town centre, up housing estates, along the shop parade, and she loved it as she is very nosy - went past an amusement arcade, wanted to go in and play poker!Bill Dorrance (while on his deathbed) told Pat Parelli: "Never, ever knock the curiosity out of a colt."

Glad to hear that you also are operating from Tom's advice.
...I dont understand what is meant "by disengaging the hind quarters" of a horse. The power to move forward originates in the horse's hindquarters. (The front end basically carries most of the weight.) This is why we always want the horse straight when running a race, jumping, performing most Dressage movements, or doing anything that requires speed and power: for power and speed, we want the horse's backbone straight. The fundamental reason that jockeys keep even contact on a Thoroughbred during a race is to keep it straight, so that it can engage all of the power of its hindquarters, and thereby run faster.

Whenever we "untrack" the rear end from the path made by the front end, we reduce the power that the horse can apply to its forward movement. The result is that the horse cannot run quite as fast and cannot apply quite as much power in the forward direction. When we untrack the hindquarters to the extent that Tootsie describes above, we say that we have "disengaged the hindquarters". In effect, we have restricted the horse's ability to apply power in the forward direction. If we disengage (i.e., "untrack") the hindquarters far enough, the horse cannot maintain forward movement in the least.

You can experiment with the same maneuver on yourself: Run down a straight line by crossing your left foot over in front of your right foot (or vice versa). See how far you can run when you are crossing your feet over one another. If you can run 100 meters while crossing your feet over one another, you win a cookie.

But you won't be able to do it far and with power, because you are using your body against yourself.

Both the bending and the one-rein stop disengage (i.e., "untrack") the horse's hindquarters to some degree: the bending a little, and the stop a lot. Hence, the horse loses power, and is as effective moving forward as you are crossing your foot in front of the other while running.

This is why these are the primary techniques to influence a horse's ability to move forward.

Bending and disengaging the hindquarters are fundamental techniques that are used and taught by EVERY modern natural horseman that I have observed, studied, have trained with, or am aware of (and that's a bunch of people). The techniques are that fundamental and universal; and are among the first things that we learn to do with groundwork.
...I can find show ground work where someone is teaching the stationary horse to shift his hind quarters away from them.
This is the initial training for disengagement of the hindquarters.

The indicator of a quality disengagement is the horse's inside rear leg stepping clear in front of and over the outside rear leg; and this is the goal to train for. On the contrary, if the horse is merely side-stepping with its rear legs, and not crossing over, it is still braced and not yielding well. One needs to get the horse to perform quality step-overs; on the ground, before mounting up. (This is what I meant when I wrote about "'check the brakes' before we drive on to the M1").
And I cant picture what is meant if the horse was in flight? As Tootsie indicated, one has to get the horse slowed down before asking for the complete disengagement, else the horse may very well topple over.

This is why we bend a fast moving horse, rather than immediately apply the one-rein stop. Once the horse slows sufficiently, then we can apply the one-rein stop if we want the horse to completely stop. But the slowing down always originates with the bending.

So here's the second $64,000 question: What's the difference (when driving an automobile) between slowing down and stopping?

Here's the hint: While riding, EVERY one-rein stop begins with a bending; but then progresses to additional aids. So when you bend any horse, you are doing step one of the one-rein stop.
So I asked her to take the right fork, just a touch on the right rein and my left leg back, and miraculously she took notice, took the right fork and shortly afterwards came to a stop. I guess that illustrates all you said, about the horse coming back to you by responding to a normal cue?I'd say that you bending her gave her a cue to think about without the constraint (and associated building of her emotional excitement) produced by pulling back with both reins.
But can you describe please what might happen if one gently bent the neck to one side when on a track which had no fork?
There is a thread posted two days ago regarding a couple of runaway horses that went down a narrow path totally out of "control". The riders fell off (and one got stepped on). This happened because the riders did not know how to bend their horses to either a slower pace or to a stop.

When one gets into trouble wherever there is no room to move laterally, the ONLY safe thing to do to get control of the situation is to bend the horse to dissipate the forward motion. (Note that I wrote "control the situation", not control the horse; one controls the situation by influencing the horse.)

Envision this: The horse continues to travel down the path, with a bend to the left or right, but its forward motion diminishes until it loses all forward motion. We haven't left the path, but the forward motion ceases. In other words, we've stopped the horse.

The reason that we bend only about eight inches, is that we do not want to bend to such a degree that we pull the horse off the path (and over the cliff, etc.) We want the horse to stay on the path, while it is losing the ability to apply the power of its hindquarters in the forward direction. So it does not matter that we cannot go to the left or right; we remain on the path as the horse loses forward motion. If the horse deviates too much left or right, we ease up on the bend and allow the horse to stay on the path; then when it recovers its balance, we continue the bending, until it slows to the speed we want, or it stops for us.

As it stops all forward motion (but is still dancing around), we can then apply a one-rein stop if we wish, even on a narrow path. But we must get the horse to lose forward motion before asking for the stop.

But please do not misunderstand me: in a runaway situation, if I have room to circle a horse, I'll do that.

So here's your next experiment: Run down a straight line with your head turned to the left (or right). See how far you can run when your head is turned. If you can run 200 meters with your head turned, you win another cookie.
Will the cantering horse leave the track and start a circle?If you bend it far enough, she will start to turn into a circle. This is why we do not bend too much, unless we have room to circle.
If, say, there is tarmac to one side of the sand track and a ditch on the other, my main thought is to keep her on the sand.So when you bend her, and hold the bend, you may have to adjust the amount of bend dynamically (give a little, or bend a little more) so as to allow her to travel where you want, and stay away from the dangerous places.

Incidentally, part of my training regimen with Missy is to pick up one rein (while standing still) and ask for a bend until her nose is at my knee. I hold that bend until she disengages her hindquarters and steps over. Then I release. I do not use any leg cues whatsoever. I do this because I want Missy to learn that my picking up one rein relates to her moving her feet laterally. So she has learned that when I pick up one rein and hold the bend, she is to step her hindquarters over.

How do you think this could be used while riding?

By the way, have you folks figured out the answers to those questions I asked above?

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

What's the difference (when driving an automobile) between slowing down and stopping?


Well I'm not sure why the "when driving an automobile" is in there, cos isn't it the same ?

There are a number of different way - I might simple let the car slow itseld e.g. when going up a slope, or simply through friction. In this case I just take my foot off the gas/accelerator (see I'm bilingual :D)

Same with a horse, only I expect the horse to maintain pace unless I say otherwise. So I might ask them to stop accelerating.

In a car, I might change gear and slow that way. With a horse I might ask for a transition (within a pace or to another pace).

Or I might apply the brake.

All of those apply to slowing. To stop a car I might either slow enough that there is no forward movement, or I might apply the brake and take it out of gear (disengage the car's hindquarters ;) )

Or do you drive differently over there ?

[Skib]

I do find this very interesting. And though I ride riding school horses I have the luxury of going out alone with an escort. Yes, in winter the horses get used to a one hour circuit on the track, but I can take this mare on a two hour ride to places she doesnt usually go. And vary it for her. I can also just stand and wait if I want. I can do pretty much anything I want. So over the next few months, I am going to try these things.
About the emergency stop? Yes all that is different is the abruptness with which it is applied. I know they are not exact, but I do find the comparisons with driving are useful because I've been driving for years and am competent. Whereas horses are new to me. Someone taught me how to slow a horse going home downhill a week or two back, using hands and leg co-ordinated, neither too much, he compared it to slipping the clutch in slow traffic.
Harry, there is a culture difference between us and you in the USA. I wrote to the BHS about learning to ride in old age and said that as a driver I expected to learn how to stop and start the horse, how to steer, how to go backwards and forwards and how to increase and decrease my speed. I told them that in the USA riders learned all these things. But not here. In the UK one doesnt learn to back up (no reverse gear!!). One doesnt learn faster and slower within the same gait. The emphasis in UK riding lessons is on learning the gaits and transition between the gaits. And, though I have seen photos of Dorrance et al turning their horse's heads towards their boots, I have never seen anyone, either student or teacher, do this on a UK horse.
Since I have, ever so gently, shown two of the horses I hack on how to back up, I will now try this, equally gently.
Very interesting the way you describe slowing the horse down first, and not using a lot of physical force. I dont pull on both reins simultaneaously, just one at a time, but I have been told that the horses ignore my requests to slow down because I dont pull nearly as hard as most of the riding school clients. So I have tried harder contact having all the wrong idea.
My preferred horses do move (as you describe in the USA) and keep moving until shown otherwise. I am relieved that you think this a good thing and not a cause of the problem. But even out hacking the decision is usually taken to trot or start cantering, with the emphasis on the gait. And I've taken pleasure in teaching the horse to be super responsive and move into trot or canter. (Me showing off ) In view of what you say, I'll pay more attention to speeding up and slowing down within the gait. Particularly when cantering, I dont think we have ever experimented with that.
Thank you all who replied - because now I look forward to riding that horse again.

[Harry Hobbes]

There are a number of different way - I might simple let the car slow itseld e.g. when going up a slope, or simply through friction. In this case I just take my foot off the gas/accelerator (see I'm bilingual )In other words, you cease applying normal operating energy necessary to maintain speed, so the vehicle responds by slowing down.
Same with a horse, only I expect the horse to maintain pace unless I say otherwise. So I might ask them to stop accelerating.So if you stop riding (i.e., stop putting energy into your seat), the horse slows down, and eventually stops.
Or I might apply the brake.And if you held brake pressure until the vehicle achieved the speed you wanted, then you'd release the brake. If you wanted a stop, you'd hold the brake pressure until the vehicle came to a complete stop. So in essence, slowing or stopping is a time/pressure equation wherein the two factors have an inverse relationship; and you work through the equation with muscle memory in the moment.

Apply brakes gently, and the vehicle has time to respond without experiencing significant stress. Slam on the brakes, and the vehicle literally screams (and sometimes goes out of "control").
To stop a car I might either slow enough that there is no forward movement, or I might apply the brake and take it out of gear (disengage the car's hindquarters )The "bend" essentially takes the vehicle partially out of gear; how far out of gear depends upon the degree of bend.
Or do you drive differently over there ?I've noticed that the folks that operate in Aggression Mode while driving their automobiles: "Jack Rabbit" starts with the accelerator, jerky turns, and braking hard to slow/stop, tend to treat their horses with the same aggressive approach: Kick the horse to get it going, jerk on its mouth, and haul back hard on its mouth to stop it.

Aggressive mode is a good way to ruin both vehicles.

About the emergency stop? Yes all that is different is the abruptness with which it is applied.It's that time/pressure equation again: How much pressure versus how much time you invest.
Since I have, ever so gently, shown two of the horses I hack on how to back up, I will now try this, equally gently.The nice thing about hacking alone, is that the Cultural Police (and their auxiliaries) won't be there to interfere with your training; and I won't rat you out.
I have been told that the horses ignore my requests to slow down because I dont pull nearly as hard as most of the riding school clients. It's that cultural thing again: The horses have not been trained to slow/stop with a light cue; rather, they have been trained only to respond to force (i.e., hard pulling). You are being advised to conform to the cultural correctness.

But occasionally training alone will allow you to experiment with those successful training techniques from other cultures, and then you can apply them if and when you wish while hacking in a group. And experiment is a thing that you and your horse should do together; it's a real relationship-builder.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

Skib

I have to try and behave when I go out on "commerical" rides rather than on my own horse, as I have a strong drive to get the horse to go nicely - and sometimes thats just not fair to ask !

So I set a sensible level - what is the horse physically capable of, what is required for my safety.

But I WILL work within a pace (especially canter) - and mostly the ride escorts have never noticed ;) I will ask the horse to respond to light aids. I will ask them to be soft (within their limits).

You do have to be a bit pig headed - like your experience of asking for trot and being told to be firm(er) when you didn't get it straight off. Of course this is harder when you are a repeat-rider, but on holiday hacks I tend to develop selective deafness (within safety limits of course !)....

For example, I remember hacks on road surfaces where the ride leader has gone off at a spanking trot and I'm just not prepared to match what they do cos of the concussion to the horse and me. So what if I fall behind - THEY as ride leader have a responsibility to keep an eye on me. if they don't notice, they are not doing their job. If it is a big ride, I am also aware and take into account what the riders around me can cope with. So if a horse gets hyper when "left behind" and the rider couldn't cope, I would modify my behaviour appropriately.

[sidesaddlelady1]

Don't know if anyone's mentioned this but try consciously relaxing your back and seat muscles. You won't be so tense and it may well relax the horse as well. If you are tense the horse may think you are frightened(even if you aren't) or angy and then he may be afraid himself and be saying to you "Get me out of here before the dragon gets me"

[Skib]

This is a thank you to the people who took trouble to guide me and give suggestions. It has taken some time because I needed to ride before replying.
I have now ridden that same horse again three times.
And it has made so much difference for me to understand the meaning of disengaging the hind quarters and how to bend the horse.
All you good people who have done it lots of times may not be surprised, but from the point of view of me and my escort it had a truly amazing effect.

As the mare started jogging about and asking to head back home, I stopped and drew one rein back, just a tiny fraction and slowly as Harry describes. And it was like I had put a pin in a balloon. It deflated her. I didnt need anything else. She just walked calmly home, putting herself in my hands.

I have not yet taught her all that is set out in this thread. But it changed me too - that you gave me the skills needed to regain her attention. My teachers seem possibly a bit agrieved that so much of my riding comes from this Board, but you people have been a real life saver to me.
I hope you will all have a very good year, and your horses too.

[pedantic]

Brill, I love a happy ending :p .

Just come back from 3 hour hack, coldish and got snowed on, luvvly jubbly :D