Snaffles with shanks?

[horsecrazychick]

Can a plain snaffle with shanks be used english? I /think/ it's just western, but wouldn't it work the same as a kimberwicke snaffle anyway? My TB gets heavy in your hands and sometimes completely ignores the bit(in a plain snaffle, slow-twist snaffle, or corkscrew). He really likes the snaffle piece in his mouth and the shanks give me more leverage and control- he hates any kind of solid bit and I don't want to put barbed wire in his mouth, so is my bit ok for english? If not, what english bit would act the same way? Thanks

[Styric]

A snaffle with shanks is no longer a snaffle. It's either a pelham or gag, both of which should be ridden with two reins anyways.

If your TB is getting heavy in your hands and ignoring the bit, instead of upgrading the bit like you've been doing.. do NOT upgrade to barbed wire!!
All you'll do is numb him to harsher and harsher bits until he's given up on being ridden, and is tossed away as untrainable.

Instead, reschool him. Check his teeth and back to make sure there's nothing hurting.

When you're sure there's nothing paining him, go back to the basics.

Work on engaging his hindquarters, his ability to respond and your riding skills. Once he learns to carry himself, maintain a correct pace and you learn to release when he gives even a slight response, then pulling will resolve itself.

Lots of hill work, hacking, raised poles and strengthening exercises so he is capable of holding himself up.

A bit is not for leverage or control. It is a communication device. If you need a handbrake, then you and your horse need help from a qualified instructor to show you what you're doing wrong. A horse should NEVER require a wire bit, and if he does, something is very seriously wrong.

I went through this with my horse, and have just restarted him in the basics. It was mostly my bad riding that did it too, once he understood that I was going to release and give, and not brace, he practically sighed in relief. We haven't reached the point most horses are for warming up yet, but he's now much softer, happier and doesn't pull like a tanker. Reschooling, and taking lessons with a coach who emphasizes quietness and lightness has changed everything. Just switching to a more severe bit wouldn't have done it, just hidden it for a few weeks. Yes I upgraded to a bit slightly tougher, but only for reschooling and only under the surveillance of my instructor to make sure I ride with a lighter hand. It is not permanent, and I will be going back to a baucher or french link snaffle when we have reached the point where we both can ride in it in a dialogue, not a monologue.

[horsecrazychick]

Actually I'm not really looking for a harsher bit. Previously, before I bought him, he was ridden in a double twisted snaffle or something pretty harsh. Obviously I don't want to put something like that in his mouth, which is why I'm looking for the right bit. I've ridden him in plain snaffles and french link snaffles too, but he doesn't pay much attention to them- that's why my trainer wanted me to find a stronger bit than those to sort of re-shape his mouth since it is rather hard right now and him getting away with ignoring the bit is just making it more numb. That's what my trainer said atleast, and it makes sense to me... The bit that I'm riding him in right now looks somewhat like this-
http://www.stall-am-jacobshof.de/Gebiss3.jpg
(the bit in the pic is upside down though)
I don't think this one's meant to be ridden with double reins, because there'd be nowhere to attach them. Is it meant for neck-reining maybe?

[horsecrazychick]

Actually I'm not really looking for a harsher bit. Previously, before I bought him, he was ridden in a double twisted snaffle or something pretty harsh. Obviously I don't want to put something like that in his mouth, which is why I'm looking for the right bit. I've ridden him in plain snaffles and french link snaffles too, but he doesn't pay much attention to them- that's why my trainer wanted me to find a stronger bit than those to sort of re-shape his mouth since it is rather hard right now and him getting away with ignoring the bit is just making it more numb. That's what my trainer said atleast, and it makes sense to me... The bit that I'm riding him in right now looks somewhat like this-
http://www.stall-am-jacobshof.de/Gebiss3.jpg
(the bit in the pic is upside down though)
I don't think this one's meant to be ridden with double reins, because there'd be nowhere to attach them. Is it meant for neck-reining maybe?

[horsecrazychick]

Oops, sorry about that. I messed up and now I can't figure out how to delete one of them.

[Angel2]

That looks to me like a variety of a weymouth which in English should be used with a bridoon as a double bridle.

[horsecrazychick]

really? I don't know what a weymouth or a bridoon is.. But I thought this was a pretty common bit? A majority of the horses at the gymkhanas and barrel racing events around here are in these- although some of them have harsher mouthpieces such as a thinner or twisted snaffle.

[Holly B]

I would call that an American Gag or a American Curb or something like that, but, as you can probably tell, I'm no expert! I'm almost certain it's an American/Western design, not a bridoon or weymouth. I see no resaon why it can't be used for English style riding though. :)

[Pink's lady]

It's a tom thumb bit and they are fairly severe. They're a western bit and they are NOT meant to be ridden with a contact:eek: the amount of leaverage that can applie is emense. The leverage applied with a kimblewick is now where near as severe.

If you're not willing to take him right back to a snaffle for reschooling (personally I'd have him in a bitless (Dr Cook probably) until he's re-schooled), the best thing would be a Dutch gag. One of these

http://www.horse-tack-and-equestrian-clothing.com/assets/product_images/AC_4_112.jpg

You need to ride with two reins though - have the 'normal' rein on the biggest ring, which just makes the bit a hanging snaffle. The 'curb' rein (although there's no curb chain, so not strictly true) should be on the lower hole. That way you can ride as normal with a normal snaffel and only need to use the leverage in emergencies.

Incidently, Holly B, this is an American gag. It's action is similar to the Dutch, but more severe
http://www.saddlery.biz/pp/Horse_Clothing/Horse_Bits_Stirrups_and_Spurs/images/products/Horse%20Clothing/D152P1.jpg

[Lindsey_S]

Actually I'm not really looking for a harsher bit. Previously, before I bought him, he was ridden in a double twisted snaffle or something pretty harsh. Obviously I don't want to put something like that in his mouth, which is why I'm looking for the right bit. I've ridden him in plain snaffles and french link snaffles too, but he doesn't pay much attention to them- that's why my trainer wanted me to find a stronger bit than those to sort of re-shape his mouth since it is rather hard right now and him getting away with ignoring the bit is just making it more numb. That's what my trainer said atleast, and it makes sense to me... The bit that I'm riding him in right now looks somewhat like this-
http://www.stall-am-jacobshof.de/Gebiss3.jpg
(the bit in the pic is upside down though)
I don't think this one's meant to be ridden with double reins, because there'd be nowhere to attach them. Is it meant for neck-reining maybe?

The bit you have a picture of is called a 'tom-thumb or colt breaking bit' it is a western bit, and uses one set of reins to neck rein the horse.

Maybe try a jointed pelham, I would think that it would work like the tom thumb

[BeachRiding]

Pink's Lady- oh my gosh! I just realized my horse is in a tom thumb bit! I had no clue! my instructor wanted me to ride in it to have better control, thanks for posting that! I will try to get my horse back in a snaffle! Grr, I didn't think my horse was in a harsh bit...Thank You so much!

[Pink's lady]

my horse is in a tom thumb bit! I had no clue! my instructor wanted me to ride in it to have better control, thanks for posting that! I will try to get my horse back in a snaffle!

Good for you;) If your instructor complain, tell her/him that control comes from trust, respect and correct schooling, not by putting a load of metal in their mouth;)

[BeachRiding]

I just read this on the internet! My poor horse... I feel so bad!

Tom Thumbs are VERY harsh and a commonly misunderstood bit (this bit is sometimes called a western snaffle or shanked snaffle). People tend to think they are mild because they think it is a snaffle, because the mouthpiece is jointed. In fact, it is a leverage bit, not a snaffle at all, and when you pull back on both reins at the same time, the joint pushes into the roof of the horse's mouth, causing a gaping mouth, and the sides of the bit squeeze the jaw in what is referred to as the "nutcracker" effect. Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain. A true snaffle is a "direct-pressure" bit (as opposed to a leverage bit), meaning that the rein is connected directly across from the mouthpiece of the bit allowing direct contact with the corners of the horse's mouth; a pound of pull on the reins creates a pound of pressure on the side of the horse's mouth. A leverage bit has a shank, which stretches above and below the mouthpiece, with the reins attached at the bottom of the shank. A pull on the shank creates leverage with the horse's mouth as the fulcrum. The ratio of shank above the bit to shank below the bit dictates the amount of leverage created. If there is one inch above the mouthpiece and two inches of shank below the mouthpiece, the bit has a one to two ratio; one pound of pull creates two pounds of pressure on the horse's mouth. In a leverage bit, the horse feels pressure on the poll, cheeks, chin, mouth and palate. The only time I would use a Tom Thumb is with a small child riding a big insensitive horse that needs the extra leverage. A regular curb bit is milder. I would suggest using a regular snaffle or a side-pull or if you need a little extra brakes, try a kimberwicke.

[BeachRiding]

Thanks Pink Lady! You have saved my horse from many more years of pain with a clue-less rider.... I feel awful... And I was wondering why he wouldn't turn to one side, it was probably the pressure from the bit causing him pain,which is why he would toss his head... Gosh, I will go by myself a snaffle before I ride again!

[Pink's lady]

You'll probably find him hard to control to begin with if he's used to a tom thumb- a snaffle will feel very different. If he's sore in the roof of his mouth, a french-link
http://www.statelinetack.com/media/slt/images/products/detail/standard/original_imgs/in733154_1942f.jpg
would be best as they don't pivot up wards. If he prefers the poll pressure (and some horses do) an kimblewick would help
http://www.saddlery.biz/pp/Horse_Clothing/Horse_Bits_Stirrups_and_Spurs/images/products/Horse%20Clothing/D145P1.jpg
They have poll pressure and a curb action, but very little leverage and as a mullen or ported mullen (don't get a straight bar - they leave no room for the tounge), it has no effect on the roof of the mouth.

Also, a snaffle in some horses mouths aren't 'mild' if they are the wrong shape for the mouth. Your best bet would be a french-link (make sure it's not a Dr bristol, which looks very similar, but the joint in the middle is at an angle and cuts into the tounge).

[BeachRiding]

Also, read this article:

http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm

[BeachRiding]

Just saw your post Pink Lady! Thanks, so should I buy a french link and a snaffle? Use the french link first and then downgrade to the snaffle? I am so confused...His mouth is probably very sore right now...

[Kalypso]

WillieLove...the french link is a type of snaffle :)

The definition of a snaffle is a bit which puts DIRECT pressure with the reins -in other words, no shanks, the reins are connected directly to the bit. A curb bit is a bit that has leverage, shanks, and the reins do not directly connect to the bit. That's a very general definition, but gets the basic point :)
(oh was going to add...some snaffles aren't broken, and some curbs can be broken...many people think that the definition of a snaffle is a 'broken' bit, but that's not necessarily true :) )

A Tom Thumb is only as harsh as you make it. It isn't really an extremely harsh bit unless you are really heavy with your hands. I ride Mia in a Tom Thumb and she's perfectly fine, but I DO only neck rein in it, if I'm riding her english or direct reining, then I uusally use a full-cheek snaffle.

[Pink's lady]

A french link IS a snaffle;) A snaffle is any bit that doesn't have curb. leverage or poll pressure. I'd try him in a french link, and if he likes it, keep it. It's actually imilder than a single jointed snaffle.
Belows a bit about snaffle bits to help you decide:

You have three main mouth piece types -

no joints - mild and difficult to do damage with, but a lot of horses don't like how it squashes the tounge.
http://www.tdssaddlers.com/ProductImages/17957.JPG

single jointed -again mild, but some horses hate how it pivots up and hits the roof of the mouth. It also 'nut-crackers' on the lower jaw
http://carrollcountytack.com/catalog/images/stubben_eggbutt.jpg

double jointed - very mild and has a more even pressure. Puts pressure on the tounge and bars and lips almost evenly and no nut-cracker. Some horses don't like how it puts more pressure on the tounge and bars than a single-jointed. Some designs (i.e Dr Bristol and some 'bean' links put a lot of tounge pressure.)
http://www.statelinetack.com/media/slt/images/products/detail/standard/original_imgs/in733154_1942f.jpg

Then there's the multi-linked, the waterford - which prevents the horse taking a contact and stops pulling. Not suitable for if you want them to accept a light contact and horrific if you saw with your reins.
http://www.vtosaddlery.com/prodimg/dbwaterfordlr.jpg

Then you have two different types of cheek edges -

the eggbutt - which prevents nipping of the lips and holds the bit still in the mouth.
http://www.moonrakerqh.com/tack/gfx/bit-25-5340.jpg

or the loose-ring - which some horse like because they can play with it more, and it gives the rider a bit more 'feel'. But it can catch the lips as it slides
http://www.tackroominc.com/catalog/images/BJPLooseRingSnaffle.jpeg

You also have different cheeks -

the D -ring - useful for steering
http://budblankenshipfoxtrotters.com/deeringsnaffle.jpg

and the full-cheek - this one's an eggbutt, but you can get loose ring and also totally fixed (called fulmars)
http://www.vitavet.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/212118.jpg

For course, you get all kinds of mixes and variations of material, shape and size.

This site (http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#bit)will tell you all you could ever want to know about bits (and nosebands etc)

[BeachRiding]

Wow thanks so much Kalypso and especially Pink's Lady! My horse never used to respond to the single jointed snaffle, because his mouth has been used so harshly he is unresponsive... but maybe he will like the french snaffle? what would be better for cheek edges on a french snaffle? Would I have more "control" with one that holds the bit in place or the loose one? which do horses seem to prefer? and lastly will the D-Ring help alot? I ride western just to tell you... Thanks so much for your time!

[horsecrazychick]

Thanks for all the replies- and I'm gald this board is helping some other people too. The dutch gag is what I was going to use on him because I was able to borrow it from someone but it didn't fit and I don't really have the money to go around buying bits until I find one I like. I've tried the kimberwicke but he hated it and the french link snaffle, which he ignored. Since I've had him he's been ridden in all sorts of bits, but the one he was used to before I got him was the twisted wire snaffle(or something like that).


Is it definite the bit that I'm riding him in now(the same as the pic I posted but the shanks aren't really curved at all) is hurting him???? It doesn't seem right, because this is the best he's ever been. He's light in my hands and happy to keep a nice topline, never opens his mouth or tosses his head or anything. The other day I was cantering and decided to just drop the reins. He kept the exact same speed and balance without changing his topline and I turned him in aabout a 10m circle without the reins. Does this really sound like a horse that is in pain and hates his bit? He doesn't even freak out anymore like he used to when the sun starts to set. I ride him with a light contact- enough that the reins don't droop, but probably not enough to change the angle of the shanks and in my opinion I have quiet hands. I'm not trying to argue with you guys because you know a lot more than I do, it just strikes me as odd that my boy is so happy and now I find out he's in a cruel harsh bit. :eek: :(

[Kalypso]

Just my own experience...but I very much dislike the loose-ring bits because they tend to catch on the corners of the horse's mouth. Every time I rode Mia with a loose-ring, she was really unhappy and would have small cuts on the sides of her mouth (both sizes we used, so it wasn't a 'fitting' problem).

I ride Mia in a full cheek snaffle because the straight cheek pieces put a bit more pressure on the sides of the mouth when you ask to turn, which in turn aids with turning.

However, I've noticed (and this might be just Mia) that she doesn't listen to my neck-reining aids very well in the full cheek :confused: She neck reins very well, and without much contact, in the Tom Thumb, but when I ask her to neck-rein in the full cheek she runs right throught it. *shrugs* Maybe it's just her ;)

[Pink's lady]

Unfortunatly your going to have to reschool him to get used to a lighter contact and bit. It will take time, but you'll get there and it'll be rewarding. It's not that he can't feel you pulling on the reins, it's just that he's not listening.

If he has problems steering, than a D-ring or a full-cheek would be best. I would probably get him a eggbutt version. In terms of control, it makes no difference.

Do you ride western? As in no rein-contact neck-reining type western? In which case most of above doesn't count a you have little or no contact. It's a totally different ball game. I don't know much (anything:rolleyes: ) about western, but I wouldn't have him in a tom thumb.Something with a curb but no joint would be best. If possible, I'd still re-school to ride in a french-link.

[Kalypso]

horsecrazychick: as I said, the Tom Thumb is really only as harsh as you make it :) No, your horse doesn't sound like an unhappy horse who is in pain. Then again...some horses have been known to be stars and go right through pain.

A shanked bit is really not made to be used when direct reining. Curb bits are usually used more for neck-reining because the shanks can actually make the cues for turning confusing for the horse. Especially with a Tom Thumb. It can be quite a harsh bit if you are pulling on it a lot, which is why I only use it when riding western and neck reining (although I will admit, when Mia acts up I WILL direct rein with it).

But...as for the answer to your original question...what I have been told is that no you aren't supposed to use a shanked bit in English riding, and I seriously doubt a Tom Thumb would be acceptable as an English bit :eek:

[Pink's lady]

Sorry, we've gone way of topic:o ;)

I ride him with a light contact- enough that the reins don't droop, but probably not enough to change the angle of the shanks and in my opinion I have quiet hands.(


You've hit the nail on the head here - a bit is only as severe as the hands holding it. If he seems happy in it, thats great, I just wouldn't use it on my horse as she would go mental and kill everyone - she's got such a soft mouth that even her french link is too much:rolleyes: You're problem will occur when you do need to take a stronger contact (for mor collection etc)

But the point is that you want to school him out of harsh bits - which you could do with a dutch gag.

The other possibility is that parts of his mouth are dead and can't feel anything - that can happen with an area in the roof of the mouth when jointed leverage bits are used. If he's had everything under the sun shoved in his mouth, it's a possiblity. :(

But basically, if he seems totally happy, then leave it. Just bear in mind it IS a severe bit and you can do a lot of damage with it. And it's not dressage legal.;)

[BeachRiding]

ooh, sorry I sort of hijacked your thread horsecrazychick! But I thank you for making it as it has helped me...lol I will only hijack one more post...lol

Okay now I am just really confused! snaffles are used in western and people do neck rein with them,so ,wouldn't with a french link you still be able to neck rein? I neck rein and I use direct reins! My first four lessons ever were english so I still hold my reins english and use direct rein even though I am riding western(yes,I do get funny looks!) My horse is trained to neck rein (not to well though) and I either neck rein him or use direct rein depending on what seems to work best! So, is a French Link my best option?

This is what my horse does in him current Tom Thumb bit.

Stopping: A bit hard
Turning: awful on one side,great on the other!?
Backing up: He tosses his head high in the air and runs through the bit
He does everything the article said would happen! I still feel awful for punishing him when he was just confused! What's worse is that he used to go good in a bitless but now he completely ignores it after being in the Tom Thumb!

So, my ultimate question is about the French Link. and I again apologize for using your thread horsecrazylover.

[Kalypso]

Yes, of course you should be able to neck rein in a snaffle :) I think Mia is just weird :rolleyes:

It sounds like he doesn't like the Tom Thumb at all...just one question, do you use the Tom Thumb when direct reining? That may be why he doesn't do well with turning. When neck reining, you really only use the reins to turn (and your legs/body position) and really only use the bit for stopping, etc) but when you direct rein, you put pressure on the bit, and when you put direct pressure on a bit with leverage...well, it can be a lot of pressure :eek:

I'd say the French Link is probably your best bet right now, go for it and see if he likes it! :)

[horsecrazychick]

That's fine Willielove, I don't mind. :D

Pink's Lady- I think it is a possibilty that parts of his mouth are sorta.. dead. He's 17 and we're not too sure about his past but as far as I know he's probably raced, then did polo, then did jumping, then western, and somehwere along the way he must've gotten some dressage training since he knows all these lateral movements that I can't pronounce. So he's definitely been through lots of riding and who knows what was put in his mouth or who was yanking on his bit.

I will look into finding him a dutch gag and it the mean time sort through my bits at home until I find one that will do. The hackamore idea appeals to me but you can't ask a horse to come onto the bit without a bit, can you? I'd better find a bit that is acceptable for dressage since he is listed for sale as a 'dressage horse'. Now that I think of it, maybe I should find a dressage saddle too so he doesn't have to always be ridden bareback. :o I wish I didn't have to sell him in the first place... :(

[Katie_85]

I would try him in an argentine snaffle before you try a regular ring snaffle. You are going from a bit (granted a lousy one) with shanks, to no shanks at all, you might find tht on a tough mouthed horse that you have no brakes. I would go for the argentine with a curb strap (leather) until you get him respecting you, then if you ultimately want a ring snaffle you can work toward it. Here's a pic of an argentine: https://www.showstoppertack.com/images/products/Prod2022.jpg?312

[horsecrazychick]

Hmmm... But how would that bit work any differently than the one I have now?

[Kalypso]

You see where the d's are next to the actual bit? You can attach the reins there, and not at the bottom of the shank, so the bit would work like a snaffle rather than a curb (not as harsh then). But there's also a place to put the curb chain. I think....

Katie, is that bit supposed to be used with double reins? It looks like a good bit for Mia...would be softer than the Tom Thumb but would still allow me to use the curb which is what she needs...but I'm nervous about using double reins. Can you use it with just one? :confused:

[love4horses]

Well, this evening I went riding in my new bit. I don't know exactly what you would call it but it has 7 3/4 in. shanks. I have heard long shanks are used for Tennessee walkers and that is what my horse is of course. This bit is not quite a snaffle, but it is a western style. I was using a curb bit, and then switched to the tom thumb both of which she would always bite at. With this bit she never did any of that. She was very responsive and "Whoaed" when I told her to and quickly at that. It cost enough though, $32.

Here is a picture of it.
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/bit.3.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

[Pink's lady]

Okay now I am just really confused! snaffles are used in western and people do neck rein with them,so ,wouldn't with a french link you still be able to neck rein? I neck rein and I use direct reins! My first four lessons ever were english so I still hold my reins english and use direct rein even though I am riding western(yes,I do get funny looks!) My horse is trained to neck rein (not to well though) and I either neck rein him or use direct rein depending on what seems to work best! So, is a French Link my best option?


Like Calypso said, Yes, of course you can neckrein in them - neck reining is all about the rein pressure on the neck and the riders legs, seat and back, so the bit has little to do with it. But his direct reining with a snaffle bit should be much much better. His stopping will probably be difficult to begin with and you will have to take up a contact to stop (rather that use you weight and kift your hands like you should be doing with the shank).

Remember, the french-link may quite possibly have no effect on him - if he's used to an awful lot of pressure, then he's just going to ignore it. He can be schooled to listen though - make it a project;) Of course, he might not like a french link at all, in which case you will have to play with the mouth-peice types, and possibly use something with curb action, unitl you find something he's happy with.

Love4horses - that's still a wastern bit and you should definitly NOT be riding in a contact with one of them. With 7 3/4 shanks (:eek: ), the amount of leverage you can apply with it is horrific. The whole POINT of them is so that, with heavy western reins, the horse can feel the very slightest lift or movement of the reins. It's designed to applify any movements. SO a contact with on of them is going to be far to much pressure. Of course she's going to respect it and listen - it probably hurts (like a tom thumb). Having said that, the mouth peice part is batter and won't hit the roof for her mouth so badly. Looks like a Myler barrel. But in actual fact it's almost identical to a tom thunb, but with even longer shanks and no curb.

[Kalypso]

I'm a bit confused by the 'I've heard long shanks are used on Tennessee Walkers' comment...shouldn't the length of shank/type of bit used on a horse be determined by the HORSE itself and not by what breed it is? Using a type of bit just because 'everyone else' does just doesn't seem right? :confused: Not really trying to argue, just trying to understand the logic behind that statement.... Or is it because of the type of riding you do with the Walker? If you are riding English and using a direct rein, then I completely agree with Pink...that shouldn't be used for direct reining. It does look a lot like a Tom Thumb, just with a few variations in the design...

[Styric]

If he prefers the poll pressure (and some horses do) an kimblewick would help
http://www.saddlery.biz/pp/Horse_Clothing/Horse_Bits_Stirrups_and_Spurs/images/products/Horse%20Clothing/D145P1.jpg
They have poll pressure and a curb action, but very little leverage and as a mullen or ported mullen (don't get a straight bar - they leave no room for the tounge), it has no effect on the roof of the mouth

That's what I changed to. Uxeter kimberwick with a low port :) Going back to a baucher or eggbutt once he's light and responsive but he seems to really like this one.

[Pink's lady]

'I've heard long shanks are used on Tennessee Walkers' comment...shouldn't the length of shank/type of bit used on a horse be determined by the HORSE itself and not by what breed it is?

Absolutly agree BUT, the reason long shanks are associated with that breed of horse, is that is how they are ridden and show (along with the dodgy feet and the too-far-back saddles:rolleyes: ) However, they should still be ridden with a loose rein . And I bet only the higher level horses are ridden with bits like that - I'd imagine most are ridden in a normal snaffle or a very short shank.

So the bit is designed for the disapline, NOT the breed. And if you (love4horse) are riding english, not saddleseat (or whatever its called) then you should be riding in an english bit (i.e you ride with a contact). Believe me, we have a whole range of barbaric and torturous bits exclusivly for english riding;)

[cvb]

Can a plain snaffle with shanks be used english? I /think/ it's just western, but wouldn't it work the same as a kimberwicke snaffle anyway? My TB gets heavy in your hands and sometimes completely ignores the bit(in a plain snaffle, slow-twist snaffle, or corkscrew). He really likes the snaffle piece in his mouth and the shanks give me more leverage and control- he hates any kind of solid bit and I don't want to put barbed wire in his mouth, so is my bit ok for english? If not, what english bit would act the same way? Thanks

OK - so let's go back to the start again, after a long and illuminating discussion on bits etc ;)

I take it you want a bit you CAN ride "english" in, i.e. WITH a contact ?

You say that in his shanked bit he is comfy, responsive etc. And it has a jointed mouth piece right ? But he was less happy in the Kimblewick ? Was that an unjointed (straight or mullen mouth) bit ?

The "equivalent" would probably be a jointed pelham - but thats one mixed up bit with all sorts of different actions. The Argentine Snaffle that Katie_85 suggests is similar to a jointed pelham. You really need to be clear as a rider how to use a bit like that, or you'll just confuse the horse completely.

Katie_85, I notice that what looks like the small rings for the curb strap are quite low vs the mouth piece - so is this a "true" curb strap or merely a strap to stop the shanks rotating ?

The dutch gag is similar but with no curb - a lot of people ride with one rein only - if you want to retrain this horse towards dressage I'd ride with 2 reins as it will ease your ultimate transition to a normal snaffle.

Kalypso - my fave bit is a loose ring french link (actually a lozenge to be more precise) - I've used it on various horses and never had the problems you have ! Sounds like you had a nightmare ! I like it as the bit is more mobile in the mouth. The horses have all seemed very happy in them as well.

But do remember the bit may not be the only reason he gets heavy etc. By changing the bit, you may simply alter his head set - and not any other "problem" (rounding his back, lifting his tummy, moving his weight back etc etc).

[Kalypso]

Kalypso - my fave bit is a loose ring french link (actually a lozenge to be more precise) - I've used it on various horses and never had the problems you have ! Sounds like you had a nightmare ! I like it as the bit is more mobile in the mouth. The horses have all seemed very happy in them as well.

I wonder if Mia's mouth is just really sensitive then? :confused: May well be. If I were to use the loose ring again, I'd get some of those little black donut-like pads that go between the sides of the mouth and the rings, maybe that'd help :p :D

[cvb]

Well, this evening I went riding in my new bit. I don't know exactly what you would call it but it has 7 3/4 in. shanks. I have heard long shanks are used for Tennessee walkers and that is what my horse is of course. This bit is not quite a snaffle, but it is a western style. I was using a curb bit, and then switched to the tom thumb both of which she would always bite at. With this bit she never did any of that. She was very responsive and "Whoaed" when I told her to and quickly at that. It cost enough though, $32.

Here is a picture of it.
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/bit.3.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

love4horses.

I'm confused - why did you adopt this bit ? The barrel mouthpiece will give a bit of flexion without any nutcracker, but boy are those LONG shanks !! :eek: it may be the kind of but that is used for TWs, but surely it is used in certain circumstances (show ?) and when the horse is at a certain level of training ?

This kind of bit would requite a well trained horse and a very light touch. I'd struggle to see it as a "training bit" or even a schooling one.

My understanding is that you shouldn't use a curb bit to "fix" a problem - you want all the training, cues, acceptance etc to already be there from your basic training ...

[cvb]

I wonder if Mia's mouth is just really sensitive then? :confused: May well be. If I were to use the loose ring again, I'd get some of those little black donut-like pads that go between the sides of the mouth and the rings, maybe that'd help :p :D

Kalypso - if it aint broke....

Yes, bit guards might help. My first pony was an appy cross (silvie) with THE softest skin on her mouth.... and no brakes :rolleyes: I got very into bitless with that pony :o You could be getting the same thing ? Were the cuts radiating out from her mouth - like the wrinkles had split ? Thats what Silvie used to get. I used salt water washes and all sorts, but she just had really soft skin :(

We did loads of work on brakes - but I have photos of me doing Xc on her in a hackamore :p I must have used a bit but its such a long time ago... ah the grey cells stir ...I remember using a fulmer snaffle, with keepers....

If the Tom Thumb works and doesn't cause the cuts on Mia, perhaps a fulmer, or a cheeked snaffle might work as well ?

[ilostmymarbles]

well i have to admit i don't know much when it comes to bits and i have never used anyhting more severe then a pehlem or a 'dutch gag' (or three ring snaffle as it is apparently called now in every tack shop i've been to).
My arab came to me with similar problems after being razed round indoor jumping courses for years when he didn't know what a trotting poles was:eek: . He was then in the dutch gag and a hole pile of other completely useless gadets and had a ridicoulously hard mouth. So i changed his bit to the hanging cheek snaffle and was reschooling him and it has done wonders.
http://www.thesaddlery.co.uk/product_thumb.php?img=images/aberconwy_hangingsnaffle.jpg&w=50&h=50
(hope the pic works)
Its called a hanging cheek snaffle and, though it still has poll action it's alot kinder then other poll action bits. I found it a miricale worker. though i have to admit, i never tried a hackamore.

[Kalypso]

This kind of bit would requite a well trained horse and a very light touch.

Yes, VERY light! As in, hardly any contact at all! A quote I saw somewhere about a long-shanked bit said something along the lines of "a very gentle pull of the reins with a long shank can cause more damage to the horse's mouth than a harsh pull on a snaffle bit"...so be wary! :)

Are you neck-reining? If so, then it isn't so bad, although you should have been fine in a curb with shorter shanks. It might be that your horse doesn't like the 'traditional' curb bit with the ported mouth, so you may want to try different curbs with different mouth types (port types).

But if you are riding english, or trying to direct rein in any way, you might want to rethink this bit :eek: ;) Of course the horse stops VERY quickly, any amount of pressure on those shanks applies A LOT of leverage and pressure to the pole and the mouth! Not trying to be mean, or to tell you that you are wrong, or arguing...or anything! I'm just wondering if you realize exactly how that bit works and what it's doing when in your horse's mouth? :)

CVB: Yep, I use a full cheek broken snaffle when I am riding her English. But, for some reason she just won't neck rein properly in a snaffle (loose ring, d-ring, or full cheek)...it's infuriating! It isn't necessarily breaks I have a problem with, it's the turning. She tends to want to go where SHE wants, hence the use of the full cheek :D (I do have problems with breaks when hacking, so when hacking she gets either the Tom Thumb or a short-shanked, low-ported curb bit - only use the curb bit very seldom so when I do use it, she only needs a touch to get her to listen!). Am thinking of trying my hackamore with her today...I'm just a bit nervous because 1)not sure how she'll 'listen' and 2) I realize how harsh it can be if I get nervous and get heavy with my hands :rolleyes: :eek:

[Katie_85]

1- To the person who put that atrocious bit on the Walking Horse- Do you know how to ride your Walking Horse? The only TW who should be ridden in that bit is one who is being showed by a trainer who knows what they're doing.

Pink's Lady- "Absolutly agree BUT, the reason long shanks are associated with that breed of horse, is that is how they are ridden and show (along with the dodgy feet and the too-far-back saddles )"

Ummm, no, not even close to being right. TW's often need a shank in order to get the best headset. It's a matter how how the rider takes a contact, which is much different to how an english rider takes a contact. As far as our saddles being too far back, they sit in a perfectly natural place on the horse's back. Our horse's aren't expected to canter sideways or jump over things though either. :rolleyes: And the dodgy feet? Pads, you mean? Padded horses are a minority, they are only show horses, not a good representation of most of the TWH's in the world. And as far as dodgy goes....that's only your opinion, not really understanding how pads work. Also, you shouldn't be advising this person to get an english bit and take an enlgish contact with a Walking Horse. They don't work that way. This isn't just another breed, it's another way of going. And Saddleseat is a form of English, by the way.

cvb- Those little rings aren't for the curb strap, it attaches on the snaffle ring.

[Holly B]

If you have problems with a bit rubbing the corners of the lips of a sensitive horse, I find vaseline or human skin moisturiser rubbed into the corners really helps. :)

[Pink's lady]

Katie, thought that might ruffle a few feathers.;) To be honest, I know absolutly nothing about TWH's - I've never even seen one in the flesh - yu coud probably count on one hand the number of TWH in Britain:rolleyes: . From what I have seen, which is all high class showing, I don't like it - it looks extremtly unnatural and uncomfortable - at least for a non-TWH. Maybe it's fine for the breed - they're very highly bred. Do that to a warm-blood or a TB and you'd get done for cruelty. And I do realise that not everyone rides like that;)

And Love4horses only mentioned her horse was a TWH recently. So maybe the do need to be riden differently. Maybe they can't ride english style. But from everything else that's been said, she appears to be trying to school her to ride english. And that means that high head carraige isn't wanted AND she will be riding with a contact. Which makes the TWH bit totally unsuitable.

If love4horses is wishing to school her in the TWH way, then everything that's been said has no bearing.

P.S - what is Saddlseat then? I thought it was the way TWH and other gaited are shown?:confused: ? Or are you saying that that style of riding is counted as english? :confused::eek: You Americans have a whole host of different show names;)

[love4horses]

Hold your horses.;). I should have put it before, but my walker is almost to the point of voice command. I don't ride english. This bit doesn't tug at the corners of her mouth and I don't believe any I used has ever done that. Would you think that if the bridle and bit is fitted poorly then maybe that is when it cuts their mouth? I ride western (trail riding to be exact :) ) . I have seen things, now this is in my state of Tennessee where the Tennessee Walkers originate from, that they have special bits with long shanks, and they call it a walker bit(informally named). My horse does carry her neck arched and her tail raised when I have her in a slow rack, but yet I don't use a tight reign like english riding does. She doesn't neck reign, but as I said before she is almost to the point of voice commands. I can also tap in the sides to go certain directions. I don't know if this clears anything up, but it might help :).

[Kalypso]

my comments about the bit cutting the horse's mouth weren't aimed at you, I was talking to another girl who was asking about loose ring and full cheek snaffles, etc....just in case that comment was to me ;)

That does clear things a bit, at least you don't put much pressure on the horse's mouth if you don't take much of a direct rein. Still, it is an awfully long shank, it would make me very nervous to use it...but each to their own :)

[Katie_85]

Pink's Lady- Shame about the number of walking horses in Britain, they're such a great breed of horse. As for the showing being unatural, so is high level dressage, so is jumping, etc. You can't really pick on just this one discipline. And the bit about her wanting to school her English-- that's just the problem. She can't do that. If her horse is gaited, it's not going to take kidnly to being asked to trot round like an english horse. Although she explained herself in her last post so this is really a moot point. ;) TWH's are shown English (Saddleseat) and Western a lot of times too. Also versatility, bareback, and yes, they can jump. We call Saddleseat "english" in the walking horse world because it's just a lot easier to say, and people always know what you mean. If a TWH trainer asks you to bring him an english saddle and you bring him a GP or a dressage saddle, you are going to get a very funny look. It's just understood.

love- If your horse is a trail horse and she racks, you really don't need that bit! :eek: The argentine is going to give you a good result and is a much easier bit on her mouth.

[love4horses]

Kalypso, I hope you don't think I was aiming that at you. It is just I was thinking about the whole thing and was trying to make myself understand what "I" wanted to say :LOL. Katie, very well said!

[Kalypso]

Kalypso, I hope you don't think I was aiming that at you. It is just I was thinking about the whole thing and was trying to make myself understand what "I" wanted to say :LOL!

sounds like me, thinking 'out loud' so to speak ;) :D I just didn't want YOU to think that my comments were aimed at you...but I think we understand each other now! hehe :p :D

[happy herman]

Actually I'm not really looking for a harsher bit. Previously, before I bought him, he was ridden in a double twisted snaffle or something pretty harsh. Obviously I don't want to put something like that in his mouth, which is why I'm looking for the right bit. I've ridden him in plain snaffles and french link snaffles too, but he doesn't pay much attention to them- that's why my trainer wanted me to find a stronger bit than those to sort of re-shape his mouth since it is rather hard right now and him getting away with ignoring the bit is just making it more numb. That's what my trainer said atleast, and it makes sense to me... The bit that I'm riding him in right now looks somewhat like this-
http://www.stall-am-jacobshof.de/Gebiss3.jpg
(the bit in the pic is upside down though)
I don't think this one's meant to be ridden with double reins, because there'd be nowhere to attach them. Is it meant for neck-reining maybe?

this bit is a tom thumb and while folks call them a snaffle with shanks they aren't. a snaffle does not use leverage.

[Styric]

well i have to admit i don't know much when it comes to bits and i have never used anyhting more severe then a pehlem or a 'dutch gag' (or three ring snaffle as it is apparently called now in every tack shop i've been to).
My arab came to me with similar problems after being razed round indoor jumping courses for years when he didn't know what a trotting poles was:eek: . He was then in the dutch gag and a hole pile of other completely useless gadets and had a ridicoulously hard mouth. So i changed his bit to the hanging cheek snaffle and was reschooling him and it has done wonders.
http://www.thesaddlery.co.uk/product_thumb.php?img=images/aberconwy_hangingsnaffle.jpg&w=50&h=50
(hope the pic works)
Its called a hanging cheek snaffle and, though it still has poll action it's alot kinder then other poll action bits. I found it a miricale worker. though i have to admit, i never tried a hackamore.

Actually that bit is a Baucher and I thought it didn't have poll pressure because of the round ring the rein connects to. The only way it would have poll pressure is if it locked the rein in place so that it didn't slide. As it is, when you draw back on the reins, they simply slide around the ring and act as a snaffle.

[Holly B]

Both Baucher and Hanging Cheek Snaffle are correct names for that bit... they are referred to as either or both in various magazines/catalogues I've seen them in. They do have some poll pressure, though it is only a very small amount. A lot of people like them as the poll pressure isn't harsh, but instead encourages the horse into a nice outline... there's a well known rider who rides in them a lot for this reason, but I can't remember who it is... might be Sylvia Loch or someone like that. Obviously it's not the same for al horses, but many like them. If you imagine someone pulling back on the reins, the reins would slide to the very bottom of the bit, which would cause the bottom end to raise very slightly and the smaller end with the smaller hole would therefore be pushed downwards a small amount, causing the headpiece of the bridle to be pulled down on and therefore pressure. I think this must be where the poll pressure comes from (think similar to the way a dutch gag/continental snaffle works but waaaaay less exagerrated due to the fixed rings instead of loose rings and much less leverage). :)

[Styric]

Hmm this is interesting, as I'd always thought that it didn't.



http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle/round_baucher.gif

This bit is usually falsley described as creating poll pressure. Most baucher bits don't. In order for it to put pressure on the poll, the ring which the rein attaches to, needs to have a drawn-out oblong shape so that the rein stays at a certain position on the ring. If the ring is oblong, the rein will want to stay at one end, and thus pulls this end up towards the hand/rein. If the ring is round, so that the distance from the mouth bars to the rein is constant at all angles, the rein will slide.

http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong :) Happens all the time!

[Holly B]

It's probably me that's wrong! :D However, the picture seems to showing something different to what it is saying! It is showing a small amount of movement forward and perhaps slightly downwards as well, so wouldn't that create a small amount of pressure on the poll? And, even if the rein wasn't fixed in a slot, wouldn't it slide to the bottom then stay there as the mouthpiece part would stop it sliding any further, effectively fixing it in a certain position? Websites/books/magazines often seem to give advice that goes totally aganst one another... so confusing! :rolleyes: :)

[Styric]

Good point. I'm buying a baucher sometime in the next couple weeks.. I'll step up the time and tell you what I notice about it.

My horse has definite responses to poll pressure, so we'll see.

[Holly B]

Thanks Styric, should be interesting! :)