Feeding horses treats??! Will they still respect us?

[banny]

Can feeding horse treats have a bad effect on your relationship?

Ok so i've been feeding my pony treats. I generally only give her one when she has done something i have asked her to do or when i first see her in the day and when i say goodnight at night.

I've had her just over a year now and have recently been really pleased with how our relationship has been going. When i got her there were a few things that she was completely frightened of, just the usual like fly spray and clipping. However i have reassured her and within a very short time she just stood still. She really trusts me and in most situations believes me when i tell her everything will be ok. Also if i tell her off about something and smack her (which isnt very often as she has excellent ground manners) she is really taken back by it and behaves herself. In the herd she is a very dominant horse. Generally to get her to do something she doesnt want to do i have to convince her she wants to do it as forcing her to do something just ends up in a argument.

So in summary i know she trusts me and have been thinking that she respects me.

HOWEVER i have been reading a book which goes through all the negative things about feeding treats. It basically says that a horse can't respect you for this as you are handing over food and the fact that there lips touch you is disrespectful as they would never be allowed to do this with the alpha of the herd. It also said that if you look around a yard about 7/10 horses dominate their owners rather than the other way around.

Its all stuck in my mind since reading this as obviously we the human have to be the dominant one, and i have been happily sailing along thinking that i was. Then on the other hand i think the very fact she lets me ride her, move her around anywhere i like from the ground and she obeys me when i tell her times up when she is grasing in hand even though she is dying just to have another few hours of chewing that lovely grass. So i'm starting to think, give her a break shes such a good girl and the occasional treat really does but a big smile on the face.


So what do you do? Also does it matter how much more dominant we are compared to our horses or that we are just that little bit more dominant than them?

[Perfect Pony]

Think it depends on the nature of horse and rider, a lot of horses nip when it comes to treats, all the horses i have had have been given treats but understand not to nip, they can be cheeky but not nip or bite! Its an element of respect!
Shadow checks my pockets every nite for treats and he doesnt nip he just wiggles his nose near my pockets, like cummon mum i know u have some, and he only gets treats occasionaly!

[Trewsers]

OH and I give ours a treat after we've worked them in the school - which I think they deserve:D They are most definitely NOT in charge of us because of this - they both have full respect for us and we work well together.:)

[teabiscuit]

no i don'tthink they won't respect you if you givet hem treats, honestly:rolleyes: some horses get nasty and nippy if they get treats but most are good.i think some people can be miseryguts about these things, its like people who say ignore your dog when you get back home-they should wait for you you're the boss etc, IMO one of the best things about having a dog is the welcome they give you when you get home.ok whinge over

[Esther.D]

I feed treats, not all the time, but they do get them and I have never had problems. Incidentally the thing about the lips not touching the alpha doesn't sound right....they certainly mutual groom...the issue here is the alpha horse always has to GIVE PERMISSION before a horse lower down the ranking can touch them. Therefore by deciding when to give treats and not allowing them to beg for them you are keeping the alpha position. I also allow Rupert to groom me, but I always initiate it, I start to scratch him first, like an alpha horse would.

[Daffy Dilly]

I no longer give any food, grass or anything, by hand as it progressed to the point where I felt that a playful nip was being taken too far. The only time he gets food by hand is either for the vet, or when he's being clipped/trimmed, and so it's more of an incentive to get him to stand still and keep him occupied.

One of the other two on the yard is fine. You can give him loads of treats and he wont nip. But Daffy in particular out of the three is rather bad mannered as it is.:rolleyes:

[ponylover88]

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[Jessey]

I feed treats but not all the time, I always use their 'wait' command before, so they have to give me something (a gesture) before they can have the treat, so they always kind of earn it and show respect by not just trying to grab.

J x

[sidesaddlelady1]

Can feeding horse treats have a bad effect on your relationship?

Ok so i've been feeding my pony treats. I generally only give her one when she has done something i have asked her to do or when i first see her in the day and when i say goodnight at night.

I've had her just over a year now and have recently been really pleased with how our relationship has been going. When i got her there were a few things that she was completely frightened of, just the usual like fly spray and clipping. However i have reassured her and within a very short time she just stood still. She really trusts me and in most situations believes me when i tell her everything will be ok. Also if i tell her off about something and smack her (which isnt very often as she has excellent ground manners) she is really taken back by it and behaves herself. In the herd she is a very dominant horse. Generally to get her to do something she doesnt want to do i have to convince her she wants to do it as forcing her to do something just ends up in a argument.

So in summary i know she trusts me and have been thinking that she respects me.

HOWEVER i have been reading a book which goes through all the negative things about feeding treats. It basically says that a horse can't respect you for this as you are handing over food and the fact that there lips touch you is disrespectful as they would never be allowed to do this with the alpha of the herd. It also said that if you look around a yard about 7/10 horses dominate their owners rather than the other way around.

Its all stuck in my mind since reading this as obviously we the human have to be the dominant one, and i have been happily sailing along thinking that i was. Then on the other hand i think the very fact she lets me ride her, move her around anywhere i like from the ground and she obeys me when i tell her times up when she is grasing in hand even though she is dying just to have another few hours of chewing that lovely grass. So i'm starting to think, give her a break shes such a good girl and the occasional treat really does but a big smile on the face.


So what do you do? Also does it matter how much more dominant we are compared to our horses or that we are just that little bit more dominant than them?

A bit of bribery and corruption works wonders with horses:) Use treats as a reward for good behaviour, hard work or to show the horse you are pleased with him. Never give them to naughty horses. And stop giving them if the horse starts nipping although I have never known a horse who nipped solely as a result of being given treats unless he was allowed to mug his owner for ***-bits.

As far a dominance is concerned, the horse has to understand that you are in charge. A horse with dominance issues of his own can be dangerous and needs to know his place. This does not mean you should bully him.

[banny]

I agree with all of these comments, thanks guys. I think if we give treats when we choose and not when the horse asks for one, that in a way is showing them we are more dominant as the decision is ours not the horses.

Also it is often said that hand feeding treats can lead to biting. I dont agree with this as a horses mouth is so sensitive that i dont believe they cant tell the difference between say a carrott and a finger. My horse once nipped my finger, i naturally took a big breath in which made my body language enough for her to know she had done the wrong thing. Since then i can near enough brush her teeth with my finger and she knows not to bite it.

[Wally]

I don't make a habit of it, feeding by hand can make some ponies nippy. BUT it all depends upon your relationship with them. The Icelandics might ask you very, very politely for a sweetie, but never nuzzle or push you.

[nicolaj]

Banny, what book were you reading, think I have come across something similar in a magazine, but can't remember the author.

I did think when I read it seemed a bit odd, because on that basis, you shouldn't be giving them feed at all, could present a problem at dinner time!

I believe in feeding treats randomly when they have done something good as a reward, but backed-up with a lot of praise and fuss, so they associate the two. Hopefully then they don't expect sweeties all the time!

Food rewards are used a lot in animal training without problem, think it is more about how you handle it i.e. not allowing the animal to be 'nippy'.

[banny]

It is Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks, its a really good book. There are two different opinions of it in the book. The one i am talking about is in the section about having to be the dominant leader and having them respect you. There is also a different section on this subject which talks about the use of treats in training. I have found treats to be really useful when i was trying to get my horse used to clippers, prior to that she had to be sedated.

[Kalypso]

I'm such a pushover, I give Mia an apple every day when I walk into the barn :o She also gets treats after a good ride, but not one in which she was a complete brat. Although, honestly, horses don't think that way. By the time she's been unsaddled and brushed she doesn't know why I haven't given her a treat - is really only to make myself feel better :rolleyes:

However, she never nips or anything. If I don't open the stall door and call her over, then she doesn't stick her nose out for a treat and she would NEVER dig around near my pockets or anything as she's get a big shove and a 'NO'. She does nicker at me when i get close to the stall though :p She's amazingly well-behaved now. I didn't used to give her as many treats when I first got her because she was testing me and we were still establishing the fact that I was in charge ;)

[Peace]

As I remember (it's been awhile since I read the book), Kelly Marks also objects to the use of treats during training, particularly clicker training. Her theory was that clicker training was developed to use with predators (dolphins), who naturally associate behaviors, like hunting, with food. Constant grazers, like horses, don't think in terms of modifying their behavior for a food reward.

I think that's an interesting take, but I don't really agree with her.:)

It seems to me that, whether wild horses modify their behavior to get food or not, domestic ones learn to do so very quickly. Even horses who aren't clicker-trained do, e.g. horses who learn to walk from the field into their particular stall at supper time, or horses who learn they must back up and wait before their human will put food into their troughs.

And I think food rewards in clicker training give the human a good interspecies communication tool for "shaping" equine behaviors more precisely than is possible without them.

Anyway, I've never met a treat-trained horse who seemed to complain about it.;)

[Roseanne]

I think where it gets out of hand is when other people give your horse treats and then they start expecting and "rooting" from everyone. I really don't like this, and have to own up to forgetting my manners one time, and giving another owner's horse a polo without asking her permission, and she quite rightly told me off!

Treats as reward for good behaviour and the occasional one, for instance if you haven't been in to ride but call in to say Hello, then a carrot or a couple of Blue Chip treats, can't do any harm?

Roseanne

[Francis Burton]

Can feeding horse treats have a bad effect on your relationship?
It can if you happen to teach the horse bad manners. It's all too easy to do. However, it certainly isn't inevitable.

HOWEVER i have been reading a book which goes through all the negative things about feeding treats. It basically says that a horse can't respect you for this as you are handing over food and the fact that there lips touch you is disrespectful as they would never be allowed to do this with the alpha of the herd. It also said that if you look around a yard about 7/10 horses dominate their owners rather than the other way around.
Oh dear, here we go again! :( Can you say which book this was?

Its all stuck in my mind since reading this as obviously we the human have to be the dominant one, and i have been happily sailing along thinking that i was.
It sounds like you were doing just fine. I sincerely hope the nonsense (by the sound of it) you have been reading doesn't persuade you to do things which could sour your relationship.

Then on the other hand i think the very fact she lets me ride her, move her around anywhere i like from the ground and she obeys me when i tell her times up when she is grasing in hand even though she is dying just to have another few hours of chewing that lovely grass. So i'm starting to think, give her a break shes such a good girl and the occasional treat really does but a big smile on the face.
Well there you go then. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :D

Also does it matter how much more dominant we are compared to our horses or that we are just that little bit more dominant than them?
For what it's worth, I don't bother with all that dominance stuff. If it happens, it happens, but I don't see the point of turning it into a big issue. It's better to concentrate on the really important things - like being a person your horse can trust and giving her the best chance to learn to behave as you want.

[Alice25]

My cob only gets treats very very occasionally, but this is because he is a very greedy boy:rolleyes: When I got him he had previously been given lots of treats throughout the day, and as a result he was rather nippy and pushy. I did feel guilty about cutting down his treats at first, but it has made such a difference to his behaviour, and when he does get a treat, he really appreciates it.

My shetland pony is not food-obsessed like him, and as she is quite nervous I do slip her a treat from time to time:) However, I do it very sneakily so Alfie doesn't notice, and even then I feel quite guilty about it:o But, every horse is different, and I see no problem in giving them treats as long as they keep their manners:)

[chewitmonster]

Silver is very lucky if I feed him a treat by hand. I have heard of these ideas before and they have stuck in my mind. If hes been fantastic then he tends to get a polo in his dinner or something. The main reason I hardly feed by hand is that he gets very nippy and expectant. He gets a hug and a cuddle which he likes and doesn't seem to miss them. You can tell when someone has been sneaking him treats...mainly my mum :rolleyes: xxx

[Skyhuntress]

I think treats are wonderful...so long as they are just treats and don't become a habit. A horse shouldn't EXPECT treats-which is where the nippiness comes from-but as a reward for good behavior or a good ride, it's ideal :) and it can really strengthen a bond between a horse and rider ;) After all-bribery works!

[arabianbaby]

i don't think horses become nippy/disrespectful from treats. i think they get that way from having no respect to start with. he was VERY nippy when we got him and a week of no handfeeding cured that. now he gets treats a LOT. and hugs, walks, talking, singing to and worked a lot. i can hold a carrot in front of him and tell him to wait, back up, bow, follow me and back up again. he is very patient and understands it's up to me when he gets it. it's to do with your whole relationship with the horse. you can't pinpoint one action and think it will affect what you do the other 99% of the time.

[EmmaC2]

I am another soft touch I'm afraid. My boy gets quite a lot of treats but I would stop straight away if there were any signs of him getting nippy.

[wanabe]

Gosh, I take a couple of sliced-up apples and a bunch of mini-carrots to each lesson and give them to my lesson horse when I first greet him, after I've brushed him and checked his hooves, and again after the lesson! I haven't noticed it's done any harm.

[banny]

I have never started a post before which has had so many replies!! THANKS EVERYONE

I have decided to continue feeding my horse treats. I am going to try something one of you guys mentioned which is letting her see the treat but not letting her have it until she does something for me, like back up and wait. I think if she can control herself not to take the treat until i tell her to then that has got to be a clear demonstration of who is the leader and that she is a very well mannered pony.

I will let you know if she can manage to resist temptation!