Strasser trimming???

[hApPiNeSs]

what is it? ive heard a lot of people on NR on here talking about it - a lot dont seem to like it, so sorry if im opening a thread of mass debate here :o

im gathering its a type of barefoot trim?

[No_Angel]

its a type of barefoot trim, i have heard a few things about it being very invasive.

[Esther.D]

There have been some interesting responses re this recently so come on people, what about a nice friendly reasoned debate on the trim. I know very little about it - is anyone out there using it/have info on it? All I have heard is bad things so lets balance it with some good things?

Not talking barefoot generally here - lets just keep it to Strasser if we can and see how it goes.

[KarinUS]

Yes, it's a barefoot trim. I think Strasser is a German veterinarian. She wrote several books on the subject and has a clinic specilizing in hoof rehabilitation. The cases that are handled in her clinic are very serious. Her set-up is very specialized (hence clinic rather than barn).
She also trains people to do a barefoot trim based on her guidelines. People that get certified in this are called SHPs (Strasser Hoofcare Professionals).
The SHPs promise to trim by her guidlines. Of course horses and situations vary so the way to understand this is really as a guidline- not as in Strasser does this type of surgery on horses in her clinic so SHP trimmers should chip away like that in the field... :p
There seems to be a little bit of a difference in how SHPs are viewed in different parts of the world. Perhaps the SHPs in Europe have been a bit less flexible in their approach? Not sure how much of the bad reputation is actually first hand experience or somebody repeating a negative comment...?

I have employed an SHP and was delighted with her knowledge, skill and sensitivity. :) We have learned so much from her and found her to be very open minded. Not only did my horses hooves get better but due to the better alignment his whole conformation improved. I can not say enough good things about it.

I am sure Strasser has a website. Google Strasser Hoof Care (http://www.strasserhoofcare.com/)

As usual of course any method is only as good as the person applying it. ;)

[esse]

I think one of the problems that I see here in New Caledonia and in Australasia in general is that Strasser practitioners are very rigid in their practices and make very high demands of the horse keeper to alter the horse's environment. Then when the horse's environment is not altered to Dr Strasser's high standards, the trim, which appears to be rigidly followed, is too invasive for the conditions the environment the horse is kept in - result, lame horse. Probably not the intention of the trimmer, but the result of the trim and the environment combined.

Other barefoot trimmers from other schools will compromise, and make more attainable suggestions and recommendations about horsekeeping practices.

I am sure that Dr Strasser's trimmers are excellent if they have the facilities and environment for their trim to "do its job" but reality has to come to the fore and most of us cannot install vast lengths of rubber floored walkways and other conveniences. We have to manage with what we've got which in my case is a couple of hectares of dusty grassland with not a level square metre on it, no stable, no special walkways or flooring - just hard-packed earth - and a desire to ride three or four times a week. So a trimmer from another school is going to suit me much better than a Strasser trimmer ever would.

[Wally]

I have managed barefoot for endurance rides with nothing more fancy than a grass trim, 50 mile endurance rides and sound as a bell.

Strasser does have it's place for some horses though. The trim the farrier taught me to do on laminitis cases looks just like a strasser trim on a non laminitic foot.

[Giveitago]

have seen nasty things happen to strasser trimmed horses. There are brilliant farriers around who will trim your horse/pony perfectly, you don't need to 'buy in to' any particular method. I heard that Strasser trimming is banned, please check it out!

[Giveitago]

yep, low heals for a laminitic can be very helpful but remember, not for all.

[esse]

lisa, there may be "brilliant farriers" around where you are but that unfortunately does not apply to everyone - don't forget that forums such as these are international in scope.
Where I am there are no farriers full stop. The trim is either mine or the trackways. I let the trackways do most of the work then I smooth off the chips and check that everything is level.

[Yann]

I don't think Strasser is banned (not in the UK anyway), but the welfare organisations are on the lookout for cases where horses have come to harm as a result of these trims. My problem is that the theory behind it appears to be completely out on a limb compared to accepted wisdom and horses are put through a lot of suffering because of the severity of the trim.

There's a well reasoned comparison between Strasser and more conventional trimming methods at http://www.barefoothorse.com/ on the strategy page.

[Gill]

Everybody interested in working their horses without shoes will have something to say about 'The Strasser method' and I have heard some really terrible tales.

However, if you read her book it is really informative, even if rather dictatorial in how she likes the trim done.

I have personally seen a pony with terrible feet restored to perfect soundness with a so called Strasser trimmer though, and no drastic route to be so.

That is all I can say really.

[KarinUS]

You can find some articles and comparisons on the Horse's Hoof (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/articles.html) site.:

How do I chose a trimming method? (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/helpmethod.html)
There's no such thing as a Strasser-Style Trim (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/NoSuchThing.html)


There's tons more but these two should give you a good overview in response to the original question. :)

[Stella2]

I think one of the problems that I see here in New Caledonia and in Australasia in general is that Strasser practitioners are very rigid in their practices and make very high demands of the horse keeper to alter the horse's environment. Then when the horse's environment is not altered to Dr Strasser's high standards, the trim, which appears to be rigidly followed, is too invasive for the conditions the environment the horse is kept in - result, lame horse. Probably not the intention of the trimmer, but the result of the trim and the environment combined.

Other barefoot trimmers from other schools will compromise, and make more attainable suggestions and recommendations about horsekeeping practices.


what are the ways in which they believe people manage their horses environment in order to make the trim viable?

[KarinUS]

The above article "no such thing as Strasser style trim" explains the Strasser Method of horse keeping.

[Bay Mare]

I don't think Strasser is banned (not in the UK anyway), but the welfare organisations are on the lookout for cases where horses have come to harm as a result of these trims.

No, as Yann says, it isn't banned but (also as Yann said) the welfare organisations are investigating cases where horses have been Strasser trimmed. One case in particular was being looked into because a horse had to be PTS as a direct result of a so-called Strasser trim (not my evaluation of it, I'm only repeating what I was told by an official). When I (Saff) went barefoot I was actually approached by a representative of one of the welfare organisations to find out more about what I was doing. Unfortunately the bad Strasser trims are giving barefoot as a whole a bad name. Strasser = barefoot to a lot of people.

The Laminitis Trust doesn't recommend Strasser at all and I have to say that when I was researching barefoot my reaction both gut and intellectual was that the Strasser trim, as being described in the literature that I was reading, was far too invasive for long term use. There are too many stories of the problems that it's caused for my liking. I certainly wouldn't go down the Strasser route.

[KarinUS]

If you read up on the Strasser Method you will find one thing to really stand out and that is how much importance she places on MOVEMENT. For the hoof to get healthy (and stay healthy) the hoof requires movement. A horse that is very sore from being trimmed radically will not want to move. Hence anybody trimming a horse in such a way already violates Dr Strassers first rule.
Strasser's ideas are much more complex than 'cut A and B'. Anybody taking only part of her findings and applying them without considering all other factors will indeed do harm... but that is not necessarily a reflection of the whole system.

[Yann]

Karin, the links you posted earlier appear to be broken?

[KarinUS]

Karin, the links you posted earlier appear to be broken?

Oh no. That's too bad. I thought they were great articles. I went to the www.thehorseshoof.com main page and their server seems to be down right now. Bad timing... :(

Thanks for trying to read them though. Hopefully it will be back up in a little bit?

[Mehitabel]

i'd like to read them too - i've never heard anything positive about strasser, just bleeding feet, almost resected hooves and crippled horses. will try again tomorrow.

[KarinUS]

Thanks for your interest. It looks like the site is back up. :)

[elise]

This is an interesting thread. I haven't done much research in Strasser, but I have looked at some of the before and after photos. Both my horses are barefoot and have been for quite some time. My paint used to wear shoes when he was ridden more regularily because he tends to be fairly tenderfooted, mostly on gravel. But other than that both of them are sound with no particular barefoot trimming method. So I shall keep reading!

[Bebe]

http://www.ukhsu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=332

Anyone of a sensitive nature is probably better off not reading this, it's the case report of the current Strasser court case, given by a farrier who gave evidence at the trial.

This is why Strasser has a very bad reputation in the UK and hopefully will soon be banned.

[Casey76]

I read quite a lot about the 'Strasser trim' whilst researching for a laminitis presentation I was going to give a couple of years ago.

Now bearing in mind that this was a couple of years ago, and things may have changed; the one thing which struck me was that Dr Strasser often advocated completely rebalancing the whole hoof in 1 go, even if it meant removing live sole and other structures.

Obviously the majority of these cases were severe remedial cases/severely laminitic, but I can't imagine that any horse or pony having that much work done all at once will feel comfortable straight away.

The trim that Karin and her SHP are doing appears to be a lot more sympathetic than the "drastic" trim needed(?) by the remedial cases, and her (Karins) horses are sound and happy and improving in hoof quality. And I guess that's what counts in each case - having happy horses ;)

[Yann]

The case Bebe has posted sadly isn't the only one I'm aware of, and just one horse being caused horrific and unnecessary suffering in the name of a method is one too many.

The whole approach appears to be dogmatic and prescriptive, all hooves are carved to the same angles, and horses have to live a completely 'natural' lifestyle however unsuitable or inappropriate that actually is for the particular horse concerned. Having learned a bit more on the subject in recent times I've been quite shocked by the pictures of some of the trims, much too much of the foot is being removed. It's very telling that you can read about case studies that have had shoes off for more than two years and are still unable to cope with gravel and stony surfaces. That is a massive indictment in my book.

The foot does not have to be carved and hollowed out in one fell swoop, it can get there by itself in comfort given enough time and patient and careful trimming. Karin, I'm guessing your trimmer has never made your horses sore or drawn blood, in which case she is doing a great job, but too many Strasser followers apparently aren't. A Strasser trimmed horse recently had to be withdrawn from a Mark Rashid clinic because it was so footsore, yet the owner and trimmer who was apparently also present didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

Horses do not have to be made to suffer in the cause of going barefoot. They have no choice in the matter and live in the moment, imposing unnecessary suffering on them in the name of some future goal is deeply immoral IMHO.

[Jessey]

My guys are barefoot and fine with it, I think strasser is not so bad, some of the principles are quite logical etc but when it comes to a chronic case it seems to mee that they jump in and do too much too quickly, the 'cure' is often so agressive - strangely I can't find some of the scary photo's that were one the net a year or two ago!

J x

[Yann]

I agree, some of the principles are fine and don't differ a deal from other barefoot proponents. However some of the theories on hoof form and function and the way they should be applied to a de shod foot put Strasser way out on her own.

[KarinUS]

Karin, I'm guessing your trimmer has never made your horses sore or drawn blood, in which case she is doing a great job, but too many Strasser followers apparently aren't.

Oh, absolutely not. I think you all know how much I coddle DJ, Bixby and Minose. Of course we wouldn't use any trims that draw blood. As far as I know we have only two SHPs in Texas and they work closely together. I was told by my SHP that the requirement for healing would be movement - and movement is not likely if the horse is hurting.
I think DJ had one week after the shoes came off where he seemed ouchy but remember that in the years before that he would be lame every time he lost a shoe as well. He has been fine ever since and other than that first week we always rode (although using BoaBoots on rough trail rides).

[Bebe]

I was told by my SHP that the requirement for healing would be movement - and movement is not likely if the horse is hurting.

Very true, on both counts.

Unfortunately a lot of the SHPs in the UK (not all) don't seem to understand this and cripple the horse in the name of gaining mechanism and then prescribe forced movement.

[drookitsheep]

I have to say, I'm quite surprised by the Strasser website - it's not at all what I was expecting. I don't know much about barefoot or about Strasser, but I'd have thought the Strasser website would have been an ideal platform to explain the whys and wherefors behind this new (to me!) and (it seems) pretty radical method. I was hoping to find this on the Strasser site itself and I was disappointed not to find much actual content about the method on the site. Am I looking in the wrong place on the Strasser site? Genuinely, I don't mean this as a snidey comment, but more or less all I seem to be able to find is an online store. Can someone redirect me? I'd quite like to read about it "from the horse's mouth", but all I seem to be able to find is third party info.

[KarinUS]

The Strasser training is a bit different from most natural trimmers in that it takes SHPs about 10 months to complete it versus a week or two with a lot of the others. So it's not really something you can get together in a page. It's not really meant as a do-it-yourself approach of trimming. You could check out their European site and see if they have more info there?
I have her book and thought it gave a good overview. Perhaps you can find someone local that can loan you the book?

[MelanieD]

None of the other methods let trimmers qualify in a week or two. For EPs it's at least 4 5 day courses with a lot of trimming practice and homework and a tough exam at the end. Usually takes months if not more than a year. AANCHP has multiple courses and requirements to study with multiple instructors as well, and takes months to get the required experience.

Reasons I wouldn't have anything to do with strasser trimming are:
The invasive stuff - not all trimmers do it but it's still considered acceptable in some situations by the majority of strasser trimmers and it is a part of the method. It's unnecessary as results that are just as good can be achieved without doing anything invasive.
Too much focus on the angles and shape the foot should ideally fit, other approaches focus more on what the foot needs to be trimmed to right now to allow it to heal without forcing it to a particular shape.
Too much must live out 24/7 without rugs type stuff. My horses like their stables when the weather is horrible. One is utterly pathetic and doesn't cope without her rugs. Our fields get muddy so being in part of the time to dry off is good for their feet. One of my stables is huge with a concrete floor, if I put a bed in only half of it and assorted edible things all over it then it's actually better for their feet than being out.

[KarinUS]

None of the other methods let trimmers qualify in a week or two.

Ahem. Sorry but I guess you do not know all of the other trimmers then. For example Martha Olivo has a 1 week Hoof Groom Certification Course. I see people advertise their services all the time after finishing the course. Membership in organizations like AANCHP is completely voluntary and not a requirement at all. Any trimmer can make up their own training program. It's nice that some (like the AANCHP) do but it doesn't mean all of them do. It's also interesting to note that in AANCHP's program: "Most training time occurs in Independent Study on the student's own (or client) horses." In other words you attend a clinic before you work on your own (or on client's horses) for 6 months. Then come back for more training. That doesn't necessarily indicate months and months of training IMO. And yes, they have a mentorship program but when I inquired last year the fact that there was no mentor available in my area did not seem to be a hindrance in completing the program. ;)

[MelanieD]

Sorry wasn't very clear, was talking about the main non-strasser methods in the UK which are HPT and AANCHP, didn't want anyone to get the impression that strasser was the only method that involves months of training. One week long course to be qualified to trim any horse is just stupid IMO, though probably enough to be able to trim a straightforward case.

So how does strasser training work? Is that months of full time study because I thought that was all courses and some home study as well? I take it 10 months isn't considered enough training to be doing the more invasive aspects of the trim?

[KarinUS]

So how does strasser training work? Is that months of full time study because I thought that was all courses and some home study as well? I take it 10 months isn't considered enough training to be doing the more invasive aspects of the trim?

I don't know how it works in the UK. It seems like a lot is different there. My SHP here worked as an apprentice to an experienced SHP before she could go out on her own as well as the clinics and home study you mention.

[drookitsheep]

Had a look for some more info and found some articles by Dr Strasser here - www.ibem.org.uk I also had a look on her own www.hufklinik.de site - it's in German only at the moment. Despite having a degree in German, I will have to resort to sitting down with pen, paper and a dictionary to look up all the scientific/horsey terms (and the everyday German words I've forgotten...!) to be able to understand a bit better!

Also found the link Yann posted very interesting with the comparison of trims - the pics on that site were really useful.

[Yann]

Found another interesting site and article about the approach at http://www.thenakedhoof.com.au/html/article-TransitionToBarefoot.htm

[MelanieD]

Have been doing some reading on these sites and while it's not all bad there are quite a few things I really don't like.

Abcessing being considered a normal part of transition (http://www.ibem.org.uk/articles%20for%20website/Hoof%20Abscesses.pdf). Abcesses are usually because of infection getting in, maybe through weak white lines. Also can get abcesses from overdoing the amount of work. Most abcesses are avoidable by disinfecting the feet and not overdoing it.

http://www.ibem.org.uk/articles%20for%20website/NO%20SHOES.pdf "For most horses the transition from shod to barefoot means some amount of stress and discomfort" most horses with healthy feet whose only problem is being used to shoes shouldn't be in much, if any, discomfort and not for weeks or months as this article suggests. Horses that aren't comfortable can be helped with boots and pads, but this strasser article even thinks boots are a bad thing that keep the horse moving comfortably but don't let the hooves heal (wrong!). The assumption that's it's okay for a horse to be in pain during transition is what puts a lot of people off barefoot. Apparently trimming once a week is essential for deformed hooves, have seen plenty of EP trimmed deformed hooves that have recovered very nicely without trimming anywhere near that often.

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/WhatIsTrim.html "if the horse is trimmed for optimal, complete healing, they can become very sore, and so they need to be maintained in a hoof clinic situation." HPT and AANCHP can manage complete healing without making the horse sore enough to need to be in a clinical environment. It's just causing pain to the horse when it unneccessary and there is a less invasive way. Paragraph above that seems to think a horse can't heal and be comfortable at the same time - wrong!

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/trimsteps.html#steps Heel height totally determined by a measurement, so this is meant to fit every horse/pony in every situation? Other methods look at the height of frog and sole to determine heel height and don't invade live sole to force heel height to the 'correct' measurement, but then the sole is so carved out (cutting concavity, another thing I don't like, if there is excess sole at the sides of the frog is usually there to stiffen the sole due to problems elsewhere, once it isn't needed it'll exfoliate all by itself) according to that page and pics on the site you wouldn't be able to work out where the live sole should naturally be anyway. Often if the horse has flat feet lacking natual concavity the sole is already too thin and the last thing you want to be doing is removing even more of it.

[Yann]

Well said, and my sentiments exactly as far as the pain and discomfort issues go.

There are quite a few horses going barefoot at our yard, not one of them has been made to suffer for it, and all of them are in work. I'm not aware of a single abcess either. The constant use of the word 'healing' worries me, too much end justifies the means there for my liking. There's absolutely no need to hack a foot into a predetermined shape to make the horse sound and happy, which it what it seems to amount to:mad: