What does bitted riding offer that bitless doesn't [Archive]

tazzle22

21st Dec 2005, 10:42 PM

It also more or less rules out driving; I've yet to meet a driving horse that could be safely driven bitless

mmmmm not sure of your experience of driving bitless but we have been doing it for a few years and not hurt anyone yet ;) . My instructor says if she had been put on vehicle and handed the reins she would not have known Taz was bitless. Taz wears a dr cooks open bridle.

here is Taz doing a display where we went through a "curtain", over tarpaulin, over bridge .... and through a gazebo...

included weave through cones , did ten second halt ........... and a 20m one handed circle !
Sorry re sizes pics differ ... not to good at them :rolleyes:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/EMWDemo130805-00006.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/throughthegazebo.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/100_1946.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/100_1947.jpg

she will be taking santa to xmas party for nursery and pensioners day centre tomorrow in town.... unperturbed by traffic in town or country.

and here she is within two minutes starting a warm up for a lesson ... and I think it demos that she is getting "on the aids" which some people say is not possible in a bitless bridle.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/tazdrive4.jpg

Steering is as good as a bitted bridle IMO ( well depending on horse and driver lOL) and we are regularily practicing cones obstacles now with 20 cm clearance.

Wally

21st Dec 2005, 10:47 PM

But the show secretaries and rules at higher level will not allow bitless driving!

KarinUS

21st Dec 2005, 10:48 PM

Taz is a really really good looking horse! :eek: Love the markings and nice legs! What kind of horse is he?

tazzle22

21st Dec 2005, 11:02 PM

well maybe not yet Wally ;) ............. but since competition for rosettes is not our aim in life that will not bother us too much.:) We do this for pleasure (although that does not mean to say we take driving itself any less seriously :) )

Thanks Karaina ... Taz is a welsh cob mare ( name is confusing LOL) unless I use her "posh" one .... Maenerw Princess Di .

She is a rescue horse that used to be afraid of men, saddles and whips ( as well as the usual traffic, white stones, drains, ...... well just about anything LOL). So all in all doing not too bad now :cool:

tazzle22

21st Dec 2005, 11:23 PM

mmmm thought I had posted but is seems to disappeared so try again...

here are some other "scary" things we do :D

linked first one as just cant get it small enough no matter how many times I reduce it !!!!!!!!!!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/emwdemo130805-00064.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/canIbeatent.jpg

and she is not always quite so "glam" Karina ;) especially this time of year.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/DSC00017.jpg

Wally , could I ask you how you would define a driven horse as a safe one given your statement that you had not met a safe bitless one ?

Wally

21st Dec 2005, 11:28 PM

My thoughts are, if you cannot control a horse with a noseband, you cannot control a horse with a bit. I know for a fact a bit and a scared horse don't make the slightest difference in control.

In a lot of cases you have better control as you take away the fear of pain which a bit can often cause!

I will ride any of ours in the indoor school without a bridle. Will drive without a bit in the school. Scared ridgid of insurance companies out on the road!

tazzle22

21st Dec 2005, 11:41 PM

agree re bit will not stop a scared horse !!! sounds like you and I share the principles that bit does not mean "control" .. and ? agreeing that better "control" bitless not less.......

re insurance ...... I VERY carefully checked that as previous company wouldnt even have dr cooks ridden when I double checked on origional verbal OK ( did think on taking them to task as they accepeted hackamores:p )

However have treble checked before taking out with current insurer that they accept Taz driven in dr cooks bridle. Given that is becoming far more accepted generally these days that bitless does not equate less "control" I think that in a court case it would not necessarly be such an open and shut case as it might have been say 10 years ago.

I am now puzzled then though wally because you say that you had not known any driven horse that could go bitless .... yet you say you drive bitless in the school.??? Question then also remains .... how would you decide a horse WAS safe driven bitless ( well as safe as any equine can be :cool: )

Kanuma

22nd Dec 2005, 12:25 AM

I personaly dont like bitless.

Please dont jump on me i have my reasons, ive seen a hell of alot of damage done to horses bitless, maily by hackamores in the wrong hands (im not saying it doesnt happen with bits ive just seen more happen with bitless bridles).
ive seen one horse sold on by an owner who trained her bitless, sold as completely broken and a novices ride. i know for a fact that when a bit was introduced she flipped and nearly killed her rider, this was all because the previous owner never told anyone she hadnt had a bit in her mouth.
ive seen that same pony bounce from home to home as no one is willing to give her a permanant home when through no fault of her own this mare has never done any schooling, never been anywhere, cant be competed because she cant jump, children are scared of rideing her and parents dont want children on her. it breaks my heart to see her but im in no possition to buy her!
i know right now that if i put stan in a bitless hed adjust no problems at all! the problem does not come from the fact that they are bitless, but the fact that not many people want to take on something they cant compete, that is difficult to insure, that will only work in a halter and knows nothing else, it is so difficult to sell them on if they have never had a bit in thier mouths, they are more likely to end up in problems! (dont say it will never happen, circumstances change).
one of my pet peeves is young children and hackamores, the amount of pressure you can apply woth one of those if you are heavy handed (and young children tend to be as thier seat isnt that independant and they often dont understand why pulling is bad). it realy must hurt thier noses and poll.

(sorry if this doesnt make much sense im tired, its 12.30 at night, ive been traveling since 6am, have been in the car all day belgium to northwales in one go is tireing, yet i cant sleep, it doesnt make sense to me but i cant make it make sense!)

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 12:44 AM

This isn't exacly what i was thinking off :(

LOL, i know about the tack requirements in showing, dressage and jumping as well i think (Wife used to work for the BSJA) not that i'm interested in competing.

Riding club classes usually have tack police check you before they let you enter the ring, if you don't have the right tack for the class they don't let you compete.

As for finess with the bit as opposed to bitless, i feel thats down to training. After all, what are you doing with it anyway you steer with your legs and make transitions with your legs/seat. (Half halts ? do you need them if the horse is listening to you ? but then thay can be done using the seat as weel.)

I agree heavy contact is down to the training of the horse.

I have heard of some dressage comps that allow bitless, i belive the first 5 places went to riders using halters.

Anyone know anything about the Parelli statement ?

tazzle22

22nd Dec 2005, 12:50 AM

without jumping on you kanuma ;)

bitless does not always mean a hackamore or rope halter ... and I agree have seen much damage done with these peices of tack used incorrectly .. maybe almost as much as with some bits :rolleyes: ( as you acknowledge)

sad about that pony..... really down to poor managment rather than her bitlessness. any sudden change like that will cause problems ut in such a sensitive area as bitting a horse for the frst time ...............:eek:

There are some horses who cannot have a bit in their mouth for various reasons but there are equally many more who choose to go that route ..... some, like Taz ,( and wallys horses ?) can have a bit in if that is chosen.

There are increasing numbers of horses managing perfectly well without bits in and really it is only the rulings of the FEI that influence many more riders to keep bits in.

As wally says (sorta and I rephrase)........ I think riders should earn the right to put a bit in a horses mouth... the most sensitive area I think we would all agree. One should not rely on it to "control" a horse .... and one should have the hands and seat to be light enough to never use the reins to balance ......... something I have yet to achieve at all paces !!!!

You may be right about competition bods not wanting a bitless horse ...... but then again if one felt so strong about it and were selling such a horse one would target endurance or NH buyers surely ????

I cannot speak for others ... but if circmstances changed and I could not have Taz at all I know several people who would have her in a flash ....so I have no worries there.... and connections that could target sell if if all that failed.... and if that failed she will have a bit in ( just does not like it quite as much !)

have a good slepp

I must get off to bed as we are playing santa tomorrow LOL ..... or should it be Ho ho ho

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 12:50 AM

tazzle22

22nd Dec 2005, 12:54 AM

yes we have rather gone off what I think you meant rik .... but I just could not resist the bitless driving /safety statement :o

were you in fact sorta hinting at the thought that bits are thought by some to be a requirement for extra finesse / collection / being "on the aids" ..... these thought by some to be impossible to achieve bitless.

are you asking if you can get some thing extra with a bit?

Shiny McShine

22nd Dec 2005, 01:01 AM

This isn't exacly what i was thinking off :(...

...Anyone know anything about the Parelli statement ?

As I understand within Parelli biting the horse in a snaffle is not the end of the training process, as I understand they progress from there into a curb bit and after that into more refined liberty riding (no bridle or rein at all).

The snaffle bit is hence a training tool for establishing more refined lateral flexion, and the curb is later introduced to establish more refined vertical flexion. This progresses to a horse that can be ridden in a very refined way at liberty. At least this is my understanding.

I hope that helps.
Regards,
Shiny.

KarinUS

22nd Dec 2005, 01:06 AM

My thoughts are, if you cannot control a horse with a noseband, you cannot control a horse with a bit. I know for a fact a bit and a scared horse don't make the slightest difference in control.
In a lot of cases you have better control as you take away the fear of pain which a bit can often cause!

Couldn't agree more. There was a time when our mare bolted and was unstoppable in a curb bit. Once we switched to Dr Cook's she listened much better. I feel much safer on her in the bitless.

I guess we could ignore her and make her wear a bit and just beat the @#$* out of her?
But we won't. She is happier. We are happier. If we had to sell any of our horses we would resell within our circle of Texas Natural Hoofcare friends where we know a new owner would have similar values and approaches to horsekeeping as we have.

Kanuma

22nd Dec 2005, 01:20 AM

ive ridden stan around the field in just a head collar before, i think i confused him as he started searching for a contact (he is dressage schooled to quite a high level and actively looks for a contact when ever you ride him) he gave up searching pretty soon, but seemed unsure of what to do with himself. Ive ridden harvey with nothing on but a rug (call me lazy, but i couldnt be bothered walking down the field so hopped on him and used my legs and seat to make him come down). personaly didnt feel particularly safe but at 12.2hh its not that far to fall, he was fine with it didnt bat an eyelid and did exactly what i told him to!

the problem with this mare is that she isnt the sort you would useualy associate with bitless (not steriotypeing promise!) and thus her uses are a bit limited, she is a very fine 13hh showpony type. so no adult could ride her for more then about 20 mins at a time, and she was just not well enough behaved or controllable enough for parents to consider putting thier kids on her! believe me she has been round all the houses, i know a kid who broke thier first pony aged 8 (with her mums help, but mainly just the kid), who rides absolute nutters in the showring without batting an eyelid, refuse to go anywhere near this pony! Ive been on this pony once and yes she tried her damndest to hurt me (bitless about 3 months after they first tried to put a bit in her mouth)! (im used to much bigger tempertantrums from stan though so she couldnt get me off! stan is not a kids pony though and he looks after little riders, but my goodness does he like to push his boundarys with me!)

yet this mares mother was classicaly schoold for dressage, then went bitless she is a 14hh Mare who isnt the smallest thing on earth and a child of 6 can ride her bitless and bareback.
both mares are very similar in temprement

i feel sorry for her, but it could have all been avoided if she had been bitted properly, then gone bitless. attempts at bitting her now are not working and it looks as though she is going to spend most of her life as a field or stable ornament at best at worst she will end up at beeston horse market and who knows from there!.

chev

22nd Dec 2005, 09:17 AM

Again I'd be happy to be corrected by someone with a wider experience of bitless!

And thankyou Tazzle for doing just that! :D Lovely pics and they do show what can be achieved; I'm happy that my experience of bitless driving is not the norm!

My experience is mainly with my gelding (who is at his happiest in a straight rubber happy mouth) who saw bitless in harness as the go-ahead to pretend he had no idea I was even on the other end of the reins :eek: and a couple of friends who do drive bitless but whose ponies do put the fear of God in me; responsive is not something I'd class them as. Both ponies have driven beautifully bitted though; hence my comment.

Like I said, my experience is limited, and I'm glad there are ponies like Taz out there giving a different view of things! :)

no-angel - if you want to show any Welsh colt or stallion anywhere in WPCS affiliated classes, whether at the local one-ring show or at the Royal Welsh, he must be bitted. They are simply not allowed to enter the ring without a bit. That was the reason behind my comment, not the fact that stallions *can't* be ridden bitless.

My coloured stallion was always ridden bitless (an accident with a bit put him off bits altogether :( ). I rode him out in company (female company too), on the roads, on the beach here, and he never wore a bit. I have ridden him in nothing more than a headcollar up through a field full of mares in season. The comment about showing is just about the rules.

Yann

22nd Dec 2005, 09:36 AM

The snaffle bit is hence a training tool for establishing more refined lateral flexion, and the curb is later introduced to establish more refined vertical flexion. This progresses to a horse that can be ridden in a very refined way at liberty. At least this is my understanding.

Thats interesting given the view that's sometimes expressed that a bit shouldn't be necessary to achieve this.

cvb

22nd Dec 2005, 09:49 AM

My thoughts are, if you cannot control a horse with a noseband, you cannot control a horse with a bit. I know for a fact a bit and a scared horse don't make the slightest difference in control.

and chev saidMy experience is mainly with my gelding (who is at his happiest in a straight rubber happy mouth) who saw bitless in harness as the go-ahead to pretend he had no idea I was even on the other end of the reins

I am pro-bitless and have a variety of bitless bridles. My old chap lacked brakes on pleasure rides so, as I'd had previous success with a hackamore on my first pony, I figured I try him (in safe environment) - he just went straight through it. Yet this same pony would happily do pony club dressage (when we evented) and went really nicely in a double - I didn't tend to bother using a double as he was ok in a snaffle most of the time (i.e. it was finesse, not for brakes !).

He is also well mannered from the ground. But obviously "front of nose" pressure was not something he responded to... maybe if I'd tried some other options with him we'd have found something. But it was a case of "if it aint broke" so I reverted back to the bitted solution that worked well for him.

(He also went straight through a jointed pelham the one time I tried that - but as I said, was fine in a double... has a mind of his own that one, and makes his opinions VERY clear :rolleyes: Never has suffered fools gladly..).

Yann

22nd Dec 2005, 10:05 AM

Francis Burton

22nd Dec 2005, 11:06 AM

Tend to agree with Yann on this. And yet... having greater force and strength doesn't always give you greater control in the long run. For example, a breeding stallion with two handlers attached a driving bit(!) was harder to control than with a conventional bridle and one handler. Why? Because the stronger restraint frustrated him more and made him fight harder against the handler to get to the mare. By facilitating rather than thwarting, the hander shifted the arena from one of conflict towards cooperation, where it was possible to start to teach the horse better manners (it certainly wasn't before!). Another case of "less is more".

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 11:13 AM

No problem going off topic, i was just hoping in the middle someone might mention the Parelli statement (Have now thanks:)) nice to see a driving Dr Cook actually being used, never seen one before in use.

were you in fact sorta hinting at the thought that bits are thought by some to be a requirement for extra finesse / collection / being "on the aids" ..... these thought by some to be impossible to achieve bitless.

are you asking if you can get some thing extra with a bit?

Yes thats very nicely put.

I appreciate that for a lot (maybee most in this country) of horse, rider combinations that there is more control in a bit, but that doesn't mean a bit has more control just that for those rider that have been tought to ride a certain way they have more control.

You just need to look at what people like Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli, Craig Cameron, Frank Bell, Curt Pate, Van Hargis, Steve Halfpenny, Andy Both, Buck Brannaman, Ken McNabb, Dan Sumerel, Dennis Reis etc etc the list goes on and on can do with a halter in a few hours to see what control can be gained bitless, although i've never seen one of them in a bitless bridle :confused: Most seem to go onto bits, maybee theres something in it i'm missing.

I'm not suggesting everyone is going to get this level of finesse/control etc but it gives me something to aspire too even if i know i'll never get there :(.

cvb

22nd Dec 2005, 11:20 AM

The fact also remains that it's possible to control an overexcited horse in a bit when a noseband would see you over the hills and far away. But then that's down to poor riding and lack of training on the part of the horse;)

My personal suspicion is that when you get into the overexcited and out-of-control situation, the rider tends to resort to sheer strength, and use of pain. If thats right, the only reason a bit works better is that it causes more pain :o i.e. the horse has no choice but to listen. Kind of a sad reflection ...

i.e. that we resort to this approach because we can. If someone said that they controlled their child, or (human) partner through pain - what would we think ? How woulod we react ?

Mind you, can think of a few colleagues I would consider that option with :mad:

chev

22nd Dec 2005, 11:25 AM

I appreciate that for a lot (maybee most in this country) of horse, rider combinations that there is more control in a bit, but that doesn't mean a bit has more control just that for those rider that have been tought to ride a certain way thay have more control.

You just need to look at what people like Ray Hunt, Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli, Craig Cameron, Frank Bell, Curt Pate, Van Hargis, Steve Halfpenny, Andy Both, Buck Brannaman, Ken McNabb, Dan Sumerel, Dennis Reis etc etc the list goes on and on can do with a halter in a few hours to see what control can be gained bitless.

I'm not suggesting everyone is going to get this level of finesse/control etc but it gives me something to aspire too even if i know i'll never get there :(.

I wonder also though if bits offer something different in different styles of riding. For example; the Western style of riding is quite different to the classical style you see in the Spanish High School; or even ordinary English. You wouldn't ride Western in an English dressage saddle; perhaps riding in a halter doesn't give quite the same... not control... but communication that you need for different styles of riding.

A Western horse that's 'on the bit' (whether ridden in a bit or not) is in a very different outline to a European dressage horse that's on the bit. The way the bridle is used is different. So is it possible that bits do offer something more dependant on what you're actually trying to achieve?

Have to add that I'm not familiar with all the names you've listed so if anyone in that list rides in a style that disproves that theory I'm sorry in advance!

Yann

22nd Dec 2005, 11:30 AM

Pain might be applicable in some cases but surely not all? A horse being caused pain will normally react violently as opposed to submitting to pressure or discomfort. Where pressure ends and pain begins is something that often gets brought up when discussing bits and bitless.

chev

22nd Dec 2005, 11:31 AM

And another thought... :o I have ridden horses who really dislike pressure on different parts of the head. Some hated pressure on the poll; others hated pressure on the nose, or the cheeks, or the curb groove. So since some horses are actually happier with the type of pressure you get using a bit in the mouth rather than a halter on the head, is that not also something to be considered?

I can't, for example, ever see Rhodri going very happily bitless. He hates pressure on his head. Halters cause him to stand, lower lip hanging and tongue poking out, with his whole body tense, shaking his head. He really dislikes pressure. And yet now I've started mouthing him with a bit (in his case a plain rubber happy mouth) it's plain that he reacts very differently to pressure on his mouth; he's relaxed, and soft, and much happier.

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 11:32 AM

I would probably agree with you if i hadn't seen Andy Both ride a Grand Prix standard Dressage test with a a neck rope (Nothing on its head at all), he is the only NH person i have seen who has demonstarted the benifits of this training style in Clasical European riding e.g. Dressage.

And he was the support act:eek: The main event was Ray Hunt :D

I do agree rope halters probably don't have the same finess as a bitted bridle but a bitless bridle does for me (In my experience once the horse has been trained to use it, in the same way a horse was trained to use a bit when it was started/broken in the first place, i don't think you can just chuck a bitless on and then expect the horse to go well straightaway, i'm sure it didn't the first time it had a bit in its mouth)

Surly getting a horse used to different pressures either in the mouth or round the head is part of training just like getting them used to having a saddle on there back, picking up there feet or alowing there ears and other sensitive parts of the body to be examined by you incase a vet needs to at a later date ? They don't like it to start with but you desensitise them until they accept it.

Either way i don't think bits are all bad just wanted to know if they gave something extra to a bitless bridle, and its passed the time on 2 days so far :)

cvb

22nd Dec 2005, 11:47 AM

You wouldn't ride Western in an English dressage saddle

well actually I'd choose a dressage saddle ove a GP for western, as the position is closer - you're just missing the swells etc !

I do this now and then when I'm schooling - regardless of saddle, we simply change mode from 'here' to 'there' and go from working trot - dressage style - to western jog :D

Yann - I was only meaning pain in the extreme situations - not that using a bit means pain all the time. You'll probably remember I have a partner with PTSD - if he's having a crisis I need to find a way to break through to him. In his situation of course violence would hardly be appropriate - but you find, somehow, a way to break through the wall of noise in his head.

I figure an out-of-control horse is similar in that you just need to reconnect, for the briefest of moments, and that might be verbal, or physical - but more often than not its physical.

Lgd

22nd Dec 2005, 02:34 PM

I would probably agree with you if i hadn't seen Andy Both ride a Grand Prix standard Dressage test with a a neck rope (Nothing on its head at all),
And it had probably learnt it's trade bitted first.

Peri is trained to GP level (competed to Inter I) but can do all her dressage work bridleless and I could jump her brother 'bareheaded' as well.

The problem I have found with bitless bridles is that the sphere of lateral control is variable - an 'english hackamore' gives you poor lateral flexion, side pulls don't give a much better response despite you expecting that they might at first sight. The problems you would encounter with training the higher level work in a bitless is also that the frame a bitless encourages (generally much longer and lower) makes it much harder to develop the engagement required, it is do-able but will take far longer and many horses will never achieve it to a satisfactory level. A horse that is already trained in the requirements actually finds it easier to go completely bridleless than to use a bitless bridle because of this. Also bear in mind that 90% of lateral work is created by the seat, leg and weight aids once a horse is trained, but at the beginning the bit is used relatively more than that to teach the positioning.

herbyhorse

22nd Dec 2005, 02:54 PM

I get brakes with a bit, a hackamore is fine but she's heavy and when she wants to go, she'll go ... only a combi brings her back and becuase of this i can now teach her to come back off my weight not hauling as I have to with a hackamore/snaffle. but In hackamore it's too dangerous to hack. - although i do have quiet bimbles around the woods with her head collar on when i'm on my own.

Will try Dr cook, but my experience of it with a couple of horses is it makes them very heavy on the forehand and hands and the horses seem to go better in it becuase they don't have anything to resist, becuase they are not being asked to work correctly which to begin with is harder and don't get so annoyed becuase they can continue to slop along rather than be asked to lift. (I'm not slating Dr cook, it's just I haven't seen it working to the level of dressage i'd like to do other than on horses which have come round with a bit and have now stayed that was with the doctor cook).. I think it should start bitted and then when you stop hanging on your horses mouth and they off you, then go bitless???

I can't say I've had the softness of a horse rounding under and carrying with bitless, only bitted.... but if any ones' got a school master bitless i'd like a look see.

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 03:06 PM

I'm pretty sure it was too.

I also agree that it take longer to train in a bitless as opposed to bitted.

Not sure i agree with you over the frame, but i've only used a Dr Cook so don't know how an English hackamore and cross pull would be.

Also a NH method of teaching latteral work involves teaching it from the ground before you even try it on the horse.

There is also the distinction between a rider holding the horse in a frame and the horse being schooled to cary itself in that frame, which is not often mentioned but very interesting.

Yann

22nd Dec 2005, 03:12 PM

Thanks Lgd, you've seem to have confirmed a few things I suspected through my own experiences in your post. We're only at a fairly basic level schooling wise but Rio can and does hold a nice correct outline in a bit. I've tried the same things in my Dr Cook and it just isn't the same although she does work in an outline of sorts. Perhaps that's down to faults in my riding and her training though.

cvb

22nd Dec 2005, 03:23 PM

Also a NH method of teaching latteral work involves teaching it from the ground before you even try it on the horse.

gosh I'm in a picky mood today :p

teaching lateral work from the ground is just common sense, not an "NH method"

Its just that so few people are aware of it and do it... but I've been aware of this for many many years, way before NH had any profile or awareness in UK.

cvb

22nd Dec 2005, 03:26 PM

p.s. meant to say that whenever I have ridden my own beasties bitless, with the exception of my brake-less cob, they have all offered softness at some stage.

However, it has always felt like a different quality of softness - more through or there somehow ? Anyone else experience this ?

I only got the "heavy and on the floor" experience with the brake-less cob :rolleyes: who definately went for "into pressure" in that case :o

Tootsie4U

22nd Dec 2005, 03:31 PM

Here ya go Rik. Read the very last post. I think this is what you're looking for.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48007&highlight=rope+halter

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 04:56 PM

gosh I'm in a picky mood today :p

teaching lateral work from the ground is just common sense, not an "NH method"

Its just that so few people are aware of it and do it... but I've been aware of this for many many years, way before NH had any profile or awareness in UK.

LOL funny you should say that, as i was riding Chico i was thinking "I should have put and Spanish Riding School in Vienna do as well". :)

Lgd

22nd Dec 2005, 05:01 PM

Also a NH method of teaching latteral work involves teaching it from the ground before you even try it on the horse.

Not a purely NH trick - ever seen the SRS? :D

Most 'classicists' routinely do ground work

Peri certainly does all of her lateral work in-hand or in long-reins - shoulder-in, half-pass etc. - and she can do her tempi changes in long reins. I always teach piaffe in hand before teaching it ridden as well.

I think there is a basic lack of understanding about dressage training and what is required to produce the 'public performance'. Equally there are many in the dressage world who do the sport a great disservice with some of their riding methods and short-cuts. I do try and keep away from the 'classical' dressage label as it is just another box into which to shove people. There are methods that some of the old classical masters tried that would have you in court for cruelty nowadays - whatever happened to just riding correctly!

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 05:06 PM

Here ya go Rik. Read the very last post. I think this is what you're looking for.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48007&highlight=rope+halter

Thanks, interesting but still doesn't quite tell me that you get anything extra from a bit, the posts from yourself, Lgd and Shiny McShine all make perfect sense but i still can't see they produce anthing that can't be produced bitless (even if its more difficult or takes longer), i know this is subjective as each horse/rider is different so you cant generalise.

sidesaddlelady1

22nd Dec 2005, 06:58 PM

My thoughts are, if you cannot control a horse with a noseband, you cannot control a horse with a bit. I know for a fact a bit and a scared horse don't make the slightest difference in control.

In a lot of cases you have better control as you take away the fear of pain which a bit can often cause!

I will ride any of ours in the indoor school without a bridle. Will drive without a bit in the school. Scared ridgid of insurance companies out on the road!

And you still need good hands for bitless as well as bitted - I recently heard a student on the yard saying that she was going to try a hackamore as she knew her hands weren't good enough for a bit - what planet are we on!!!!!

Rik

22nd Dec 2005, 09:21 PM

I can't say I've had the softness of a horse rounding under and carrying with bitless, only bitted.... but if any ones' got a school master bitless i'd like a look see.

As no one else using a bitless has posted a pic......

I don't have a school master and i know i can't ride but here are some pictures of Carl Hester on escapado and Chico with a sh!t bloke on top :( one is in a double bridle and one is in a Dr Cook, This is 3 weeks after i got him to go round for the first time :) and i'd had him for 3 years.

Quality is crap there from a video.

http://tinypic.com/iz4w81.jpg

tazzle22

22nd Dec 2005, 11:41 PM

And thankyou Tazzle for doing just that! Lovely pics and they do show what can be achieved; I'm happy that my experience of bitless driving is not the norm!

My experience is mainly with my gelding (who is at his happiest in a straight rubber happy mouth) who saw bitless in harness as the go-ahead to pretend he had no idea I was even on the other end of the reins and a couple of friends who do drive bitless but whose ponies do put the fear of God in me; responsive is not something I'd class them as. Both ponies have driven beautifully bitted though; hence my comment.

my pleasure :D ...... not really sure that she is the NORM for bitless driving as not actually seen in person anyone else that does it. Do the ones you know use a dr cooks bridle ? There is no arguement that many horses do go better in a bit and if that is what they are used to and there is no pain /regular discomfort involved ....... then why change:D

I think that part of the problem is that there ARE so few that do it and if the few you see are not particularly "good" examples ..... like many other instances in life it can be easy to assume it is the "new gadget" / training method that does not work. :D

It is one of the reasons ( apart from pure fun) that I want to get involved with driving trials ..... to be given the opportunity to train / learn and demontrate that Taz has the potential do just as well as any other novice pony.

we did the santa delivery today and my heart swelled with pride as Taz carried santa , angel and myself ( the elf :cool: ) to the day centre ..... she stood like a rock with all the children, parents and users of the centre coming up to say hello ............ she never moved a foot :) .

We then took santa home and then took my friends young daughter for a little drive through the streets to stretch Taz's legs before getting in the trailer home.

Have a wonderful festive season folks ... doing whatever makes you happy ;)

chev

23rd Dec 2005, 08:59 AM

Surly getting a horse used to different pressures either in the mouth or round the head is part of training just like getting them used to having a saddle on there back, picking up there feet or alowing there ears and other sensitive parts of the body to be examined by you incase a vet needs to at a later date ? They don't like it to start with but you desensitise them until they accept it.

Rhodri's never liked the pressures a halter puts on his head. But he's always been happy in a plain headcollar and now in bridle and bit. I don't see training as making a horse accept something that makes him uncomfortable; in fact, if it was the other way around and he was happy in a halter and hated the bit I bet a lot of people would be saying 'well don't use a bit then'.

There's a big difference between reacting to something because it makes them feel vulnerable and insecure (picking feet up and wearing tack on their backs) and reacting to something because it feels nasty (the halter in Rhodri's case). No, I won't be working to 'desensitise' him to a halter, any more than I'd insist that a horse that disliked the curb action of a particular bit got used to it and wore it. It feels unpleasant to him; simple. I'd rather have my happy, sensitive, responsive horse just the way he is. If that means he won't go bitless, I really don't see the problem.

tazzle - one was a Dr Cook copy. Not sure if that's inferior in any way. Looked pretty much identical to the real thing to me. The other wasn't. And the one I tried on my gelding was a sidepull.

As for being the norm.... maybe she isn't yet. But who knows in the future! :D

One last thing that I thought of in my lesson yesterday; is there a bitless that offers the same degree of independance on either rein? Depending on the bit used, obviously, it is possible to use a bit to communicate to just one very small area of the horse's mouth - on one side and not the other. As far as I'm aware, none of the bitless bridles offer quite the same independance - use one rein and the bridle acts on a much wider area of the head.

I wonder if that would make the actual training of a horse more difficult? It's great to see advanced dressage performed in bitless bridles - but would it be possible to reach that level using nothing but a bitless?

No_Angel

23rd Dec 2005, 09:55 AM

for the person who asked about the pelham hackamore- i made it myself from one i saw on ebay.
it has the cheeks of a pelham, a strap which happens to be a browband across the front and a curb chain and a lip strap across the back.
looks a bit like this
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/madams_walk/pelhamhackamoreonahorse.gif

im planning to break my pony into harness using a sidepull, she longreins beautifully in it. I also tried the blinkered bridle on her and she freaked out, shes usually the quietest, most bombproof pony going, so there not going on her head.

FRED

23rd Dec 2005, 10:11 AM

I think its one of those things you will understand and learn why, with a 1st class instructor:)
My instructor this year was amazing, Jay and I did some great work together in the school,
then everything would fall to peices...because I relaxed the reins,or more often just the outside rein{a common fault of riders} .You can confuse him no end with a loose rein while your working, as with a heavy conntact you will looose every thing.Jay was very sharp and liked crystal clear aids and rein use, because anything else would have you galloping around the school.
Now some would say he needs calming down and to be made less sharp, but its clear to me that a educated rider made all the difference.Good education comes from a good teacher:)

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 11:00 AM

Rhodri's never liked the pressures a halter puts on his head. But he's always been happy in a plain headcollar and now in bridle and bit. I don't see training as making a horse accept something that makes him uncomfortable; in fact, if it was the other way around and he was happy in a halter and hated the bit I bet a lot of people would be saying 'well don't use a bit then'.

There's a big difference between reacting to something because it makes them feel vulnerable and insecure (picking feet up and wearing tack on their backs) and reacting to something because it feels nasty (the halter in Rhodri's case). No, I won't be working to 'desensitise' him to a halter, any more than I'd insist that a horse that disliked the curb action of a particular bit got used to it and wore it. It feels unpleasant to him; simple. I'd rather have my happy, sensitive, responsive horse just the way he is. If that means he won't go bitless, I really don't see the problem.

No suggesting for a moment that anyone should go bitless or do anything, the original point of the thread was, what does a bit offer bitless can't ?

Interesting how somethings a horse finds different/unusual or as you say uncomfortable we don't use them and others we say just get on with it stop messing about (I know i do this, even though i try not to)

One last thing that I thought of in my lesson yesterday; is there a bitless that offers the same degree of independance on either rein? Depending on the bit used, obviously, it is possible to use a bit to communicate to just one very small area of the horse's mouth - on one side and not the other. As far as I'm aware, none of the bitless bridles offer quite the same independance - use one rein and the bridle acts on a much wider area of the head.

I was thinking this myself the other day, but as you can train a horse to respond to pretty much any aid, i don't think its a limitation that can't be gotten over.

It's great to see advanced dressage performed in bitless bridles - but would it be possible to reach that level using nothing but a bitless?

"Advanced Dressage" i nearly feel of my chair, its just someone going round in trot and canter in there back garden, the reason i put the other pictures there was for comparison, i mean his wrost day ever is alway gonna be better than my best if i live to 200 so its nice to see how they compare especialy as this was 3 weeks after i got him to go round for the first time :)

Actuallty my horse was bought when he was 6 months old, broken and riden by the girl who bought him, he never went round with her, we got him when he was 6 or 7, the place where we kept him were "Professionals" had won National Championships at Riding club level in Dressage and 1 day eventing etc and they made him go round, looking back at videos of the time you can see he is being held in that position, but when anyone else who wan't a very good rider rode him he went like this.

The rider was holding him together, now hes trained to cary himself :)

http://tinypic.com/izw0et.jpg

He also went just the same when we went bitless, but i did it becasue i though there was less chance of me hurting his mouth by pulling on it.(sort of goes back to the first point really)

Things carried on the same until i went to see Mark Rashid, his take on bracing changed us completely form head up nose out to collected, it took 3 months to get there but compaired to the years of getting no where it was a mirracle.

As far as training a horse to a high level dressage just using bitless only, i don't know (maybee in a year or two:)), but to a decent walk, trot and canter oh yes you can.:D No one has ridden him except me for the last 18months and no one else probably ever will. :D

FRED

23rd Dec 2005, 12:16 PM

nice horse:) I think the photo will bring back memories for lots of us;)
Jay and I in the photo,you could encourage him to relax and work ON the bit,his head carriage was the same in trot and canter,even canter on a 20mtr circle.
but get it wrong and heaven help you:eek: ,and when I got it wrong it was nearly always the lose outside rein.
I don't think you can hold together a horse,Jay is 18.3 hands and it would be physicaly impossible for me to pull him into a outline,im sure he would launch me to Mars had I tried:p .He has a martingale and flash,to be honest I don't think you get will any help from these re control,but thats another story.

chev

23rd Dec 2005, 03:53 PM

"Advanced Dressage" i nearly feel of my chair, its just someone going round in trot and canter in there back garden,

Erm... was referring to your comment about Andy Both riding a Grand Prix standard dressage test... :rolleyes:

And the comments about not insisting on Rhodri wearing a halter that he finds unpleasant was in response to this comment;

Surly getting a horse used to different pressures either in the mouth or round the head is part of training just like getting them used to having a saddle on there back, picking up there feet or alowing there ears and other sensitive parts of the body to be examined by you incase a vet needs to at a later date ? They don't like it to start with but you desensitise them until they accept it.

In other words, bits offer plenty to horses like Rhodri who don't like the way bitless bridles work -using pressure.

Bit :confused: now...

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 04:18 PM

Glad to here that, i was getting worried :)

(Although there not bad outlines for only 3 weeks :cool: There much better now :))

Do the horses not like the way a bitless bridle works, or is it just a different feel and they are resisting because they are not used to it ? If the bitless bridle isn't hurting them, personally i would see it as exactly the same as getting them used to having a saddle on there back, picking up there feet or alowing there ears and other sensitive parts of the body to be examined.

But that doesn't mean i'm sugesting you or anyone else should do that with your horses :o

chev

23rd Dec 2005, 04:47 PM

I think different horses are just happy with different bridles, to be honest. Rhodri has had two years now of working in a halter. He just doesn't like the pressure it puts on his head. I guess some horses are just more sensitive to different pressures; in the same way that some horses react badly to bits that use poll pressure, some to bits that put pressure on the bars, some to bits that act mainly on the tongue. Some will be happy in a bit that uses a curb action while others hate it; I do think it's down to individual horses.

I've worked with horses who've been much happier bitless than bitted. But I have also had horses who were happier in a bit; I don't feel it's neccessarily just something different since most of mine are started without bits anyway. But every now and then I have one who really doesn't like the way bitless works on the head. So with them, we bit them from the word go. I tend not to insist on something if the horse is telling me it's not happy either; as an example, I use French links a lot with the ponies because as a rule they like them and they generally suit their mouths. But Gelfy hates them; he wears a straight bar bit in preference to all others, even though they're not my first choice because I feel they're limited in how refined you can be with rein aids. Thing is, no-one told Gelfy that. He was another who really wasn't that impressed with bitless.

I don't see it the same as getting them used to a saddle. I've never had a youngster react badly to a saddle; yes, I've had them react with doubt, or insecurity because it's a new feeling and they feel worried, but none have been physically uncomfortable with it. That's the difference for me; the horses I've had who don't like the pressures that rope halters especially but also some bitless bridles have are reacting to a feeling they dislike. Same as those who have reacted to a bit they don't like. It doesn't need to cause pain to be uncomfortable.

Esther.D

23rd Dec 2005, 04:53 PM

I also tried the blinkered bridle on her and she freaked out, shes usually the quietest, most bombproof pony going, so there not going on her head.

off topic a bit for this thread....but isn't this the time for some desensitzation? Even if you never drive with blinkers (and I have driven both ways so wouldn't criticise either) surely you have identified something that worries her so a little work to settle her in it wouldn't come amiss :) All my ponies can go blinkered or blinkerless and all the ones I have tried bitless can also go bitted as well - I like to have as many options as possible open to me, I don't like to see a gap in their training where they 'can't/won't' do something. I use the method the horse and I prefer but like to know that it is not my only option. Rupert was much happier bitless but we continued working gently on the bit issue and now he goes identically in a snaffle as he does in a halter. Obviously there are some situations where one option is either not possible or very difficult but in most cases gradual work can settle them to a reasonable acceptance. I like my ponies to have as many strings to their bow as possible, especially as if, god forbid, they ever had to be sold/rehomed it gives them more options.

sorry rather o/t - can't think of anything sensible to add to the main discussion :o

No_Angel

23rd Dec 2005, 05:06 PM

i could work on it, and desensitize her, but then again i could force a bit in my horses mouth and work on it even tho she hates it.
i was watching a dvd about it and it said the blinkers are used to stop the horse running away from the carriage, i think it would be better to desensitize my horse to the carraige than the blinkers, i would rather she be able to see around her than be scared of every noise going because she cant see it.
not much more to add, apart form i feel the thread is turning into a bit vs bitless thread again in some ways, im sure ive seen someone working at a high level in just a bitless bridle on another forum.

Esther.D

23rd Dec 2005, 05:12 PM

sorry may have come across the wrong way - I totally agree with you, thats what I do with mine and yes that was the origin of blinkers..although they have more use in multiples and i would not drive my pair (to protect from other horse flinging head and walloping with bit) or my tandem wheeler (to protect from leader reins) without them but single/tandem leader I often drive blinkerless. My worry was whether she has issues with things she can't see..whether the worry about the blinkers have identified an underlying worry that might benefit from some work :)

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 05:30 PM

sorry rather o/t - can't think of anything sensible to add to the main discussion :o

You could post a picture of your horse going bitless or bitted so we have a larger spread of horse to look at ;)

Only 3 so far 2 bitless 1 bitted ( That is a big horse FRED )

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 05:37 PM

Thats the thing chev, there are lots of things horses can dislike to start with, being tied up, standing still, being clipped etc its interesting which ones we choose to make them work through and the ones we don't thats assuming there is no physical pain and its just a dislike from the horse because they are uncomfortable etc.

chev

23rd Dec 2005, 05:48 PM

Yes, but there's still a big difference between learning to tie up and a horse that doesn't like the feel of pressure on the head. I don't know how else to say it; a halter causes pressure points on the head to be squeezed. Even the Dr Cook performs what they describe as a 'head hug'. Horses are instinctively wary of being restricted (tied up or loaded or stabled) and of having their ears/feet etc handled and carrying things on their backs because they are putting themselves in a vulnerable position. So sensitively handled you can show them gradually that they are actually safe when they do these things; so no problem. In fact of the foals I've brought on very few have ever reacted badly to tying up, having feet handled, heads handled and halter training etc because being around us from early on means they don't have the same wariness of these things.

But the actual physical sensation of pressure on the head is not comfortable for all horses. Nothing to do with instinctive urges to stay safe; it's a physical sensation they dislike. That's my point; where the objection has to do with a horse's natural urge to stay safe I'll work on building their confidence so they're no longer wary; that's what teaching them to tie up, or load, or pick feet up is about - nothing to do with desensitising them. Where a physical sensation is unpleasant, I see no need to impose that on a horse until they learn to ignore it - which is what I'd be doing if I insisted on making horses that don't like the pressure of halters get used to it.

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 05:48 PM

i feel the thread is turning into a bit vs bitless thread again in some ways, im .

Not sure i see that, most people seem to be saying they use both, dependant on what they think is best for the individula horse.

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 05:58 PM

Thats sort of my point chev, its intersting how people have diffent ideas of what is acceptable to work through and whats not, you have a different view to me and i am sure there are other people who have other takes on the situation as well.

Your making the destinction between physical discomfort and discomfort caused by a horses natural urge to stay safe.

I on the other hand i am making the destinction between physical pain and the horse deciding he doesn't like something weather thats to do with instinct or not.

No_Angel

23rd Dec 2005, 06:00 PM

oops.

Kanuma

23rd Dec 2005, 06:03 PM

right i agree with Chev. stan my lad hates snaffles, particularly single jointed ones. If he is put in a single joined snaffle all hell brakes loose, however he will tolerate a french link snaffle. he is happiest in a staright bar ported pelham with a metal curb chain. he wont even think of working if you put a leather curb chain on and he objects by chucking his head around if he doesnt have a port in his pelham, people say that this is a too strong bit and he should go in a snaffle, but he hates the nutcraker action of the snaffle and the twist that you can get, he likes to go by pressure on his poll and curb groove and not by alot pressure on the bars of his mouth. this isnt a case of needing to desensitize him, i like his sensitive mouth, it means he reacts well to the smallest of pressures. when ridden without a bit he becomes confused and and will lower his head to seek out a contact as he like a gentle contact, when he doesnt get a contact he becomes upset but any pressure across his nose he hates!
leading, loading etc are different, they just take a horse out of its comfort zone, the pressure from a bit or from a bitless bridle can cause pain or discomfort. its like people are sensitive in different places, im incredibly ticklish on my sides, but my brother isnt however touch his feet and he jumps a mile!

chev

23rd Dec 2005, 06:12 PM

I don't think it's becoming a bits v bitless argument either to be honest; I think both have merits, depending on the horse really.

Rik - I do disagree with your idea that the horse 'decides' not to like something (thinking now of Rhodri and the halter). A horse won't make a decision in that way - especially one that goes against the grain. Horses are programmed to co-operate for as long as co-operation doesn't threaten them; they do actually sometimes endure serious physical discomfort in order to continue with that co-operation. Rhodri hasn't 'decided' to dislike the way the halter works, any more than he'd 'decide' to dislike anything else that made him physically uncomfortable.

If you had a horse that hated the action of a curb bit, would you insist on 'working through it' until he accepted it? Seems like a very rigid, unforgiving way to work with horses to be honest. I'd rather work with what they do accept and feel comfortable with, rather than making what seems like a very human judgement on what they should feel and how they should react until I force them into my idea.

You seem to be saying that if a horse refuses something because it's hurting it's ok to leave it (or address the cause of the pain, I hope!); but that a reaction for any other reason is not to be accepted, and has to be challenged and worked through until the horse accepts it. My view is indeed very different; I'd prefer to be a bit more flexible in my approach to each individual and allow some dialogue to take place in my partnership with the horse. Perhaps I'm reading this all wrong, but your approach doesn't seem to allow so much for the horse's point of view, if you like.

Rik

23rd Dec 2005, 06:30 PM

What i'm saying is its interesting how WE decide what the horse has to or has not got to work through.

If you think about going up to a horse with a scary object that horse will let you get so far, then decide i dont like it and move away, in that circumstance assuming you wanted to be able to approach the horse with that object you would either as you say build his confidence in the object over time or dessnsitise him in a short time by flooding his senses.

In the same way the horse has decided he doesn't like the scary object he can also decide he doesn't like the feel of a certain bit or halter etc, at which point if you needed the horse to go in that type of tack, perhaps for a specific class, you would persiver assuming there was no pain involved and thats whats interesting, when we persiver and when we don't for our needs not the horses.

Personally i wouldn't use any bit other than a snaffle, i don't think my hands are good enough to ride a horse that needs a more sever bit or a double bridle.

Thats the the point the horse doesn't have a point of view, we decide if thay have to be tied up or if they have to have a certain type of bit or bridle or if they can have a point of view.

Your horse has to decide he doesn't like the halter, until its been on him, he doesn't know if he likes it or not, only once hes had it on can he decide he doesn't like it or decide he does like it or just doesn't care either way.

My distinction in the previous post is base on something that i had decided needed to be done whether thats stand still to be mounter, clipped, walk in from the field rather than jog in or go in a bitless bridle because the horse has a problem with its teeth and cant be ridden in a bit for a while etc it could be anything. I don't differentiate between a physical discomfort and discomfort caused by a horses natural urge to stay safe, in the end its just the same problem to overcome, if it needs to be overcome.

RodeoDreamer33

23rd Dec 2005, 06:46 PM

Just to add another story onto this thread....:rolleyes: PLEASE Read!!;)
Not to affend ANYONE and please if you ride dressage, do not think I am looking down on you after this, it is just a story about a pony and bit.

When Casper(our small about 12.3 hand cute as a button white pony) was broke he was thrown into dressage wayyyy to qucikly. He was saddle broke and had a bit in his mouth the next day. He was only 2 or 3 when they were already forcing him into a collection which he had NO muscle in his back end to be able to do. All of his rides consisted of having his face pulled so far back as to try and get him "in a frame" that he was physically not ready for. When we got him he was soooo bit sour that when he was ridden in a bit he would run and run and run and never stop. He was definetly a run away pony. We started him in a rope halter from the beginning to try and fix this. Imagine this! When he was ridden in a rope halter with the reins so long they were resting on his neck, he had no thought or reason to want to run. We slowly progressed more to a hackamore and we have used a snaffle on him again and he is perfect. When we use the bit, however, we make sure the rider knows not to even touch the reins which would result in a runaway ride. He is now used an angelic little lesson pony but is ridden back in the hackamore for the kids as we don't want any mistakes made by little novice hands:p We will maybe start getting him into a bit for the lessons afters he is more fit to get him used to and versatile to anything, but that is the only reason for we can do anything to him in a halter or hackamore. Once he is fit, he wil be able to carry himself and maybe accept the bit better and know that when we ask him to collect he lightly brings his head in and has no problem working his back end. Now we are still getting him muscled and he is a happy pony in his hackamore. :)

Kanuma

23rd Dec 2005, 06:53 PM

a horse should be bitted before it is saddled! and 2 is way to young to even think of backing a pony! 3- 3.5 years then turned away till they are 4 is about right! even then i wouldnt expect too much untill the muscle had built up.

RodeoDreamer33

23rd Dec 2005, 07:02 PM

just wondering why do u think a horse should be bitted before backing??

Kanuma

23rd Dec 2005, 08:02 PM

if you bit a youngster at about 2 ish and you get it used to the bridle, get it used to walking and troting inhand, leading well and settled in its mouth (head if you are going bitless, personaly think it is easier to bit them and then go bitless then the other way around) etc, you dont have to introduce to many things at once, and since a saddle on a horses back is useless without a bridle of some sort it is a logical progression.

by not introduceing to many things at once the pony/horse has less to worry about and if they walk up inhand well you can use that as a base to work from when you get a rider on thier back! it is easier for the horse, and establishes a comfort zone for the horse that you can work with

herbyhorse

23rd Dec 2005, 08:05 PM

Treac hated her french link, was flat and heavy, the combi picked her up and now she lighens in the snaffle. the hackamore only works when she's working off the forehand to start with, i.e; full of beans.

who is it who's developed the Dr cook hackamore double bridle? Hacked off mentioned you had created what I've been trying to get the saddler to make?

The question I have to ask is how do we get from the hands to the seat? does bitless have an instant reward?

HH

Esther.D

23rd Dec 2005, 08:30 PM

That's my point; where the objection has to do with a horse's natural urge to stay safe I'll work on building their confidence so they're no longer wary; that's what teaching them to tie up, or load, or pick feet up is about - nothing to do with desensitising them.

In my use of desensitizing I was referring to gaining their confidence so they are no longer wary as you describe - how would you interpret 'desensitization'? I don't want to mislead people by interpreting the word differently :confused:

Esther.D

23rd Dec 2005, 08:39 PM

As requested, here is Rupert bitted and bitless, he is a 13.2hh new forest who had issues with the bit after being hauled about by kids, but has gradually regained his confidence..partially through the use of bitless riding.

oh and added one of him on longreins (bitted) and a final one working with me at liberty.

chev

24th Dec 2005, 09:10 AM

In my use of desensitizing I was referring to gaining their confidence so they are no longer wary as you describe - how would you interpret 'desensitization'? I don't want to mislead people by interpreting the word differently :confused:

You're probably more accurate to be honest Esther - to desensitise does also mean to reduce an emotional response. So in that way, it would include gaining their confidence rather than overcoming a physical discomfort.

I was just trying to make a distinction between that (ie overcoming a natural and instinctive response to a situation) and teaching a horse to ignore an unpleasant physical feeling. I can't seem to make that distinction any other way. And there is a huge difference between Rhodri being wary of letting me pick his feet up (makes him vulnerable; the closest a horse gets to an emotional response, I guess) and shaking his head and flopping his lip around when a halter puts pressure on his head (physical discomfort - he just doesn't like the sensation).

Rhodri does wear a halter. He also understands how to yield to pressure, and does so easily and quickly. He doesn't resist the halter. He just shows obvious signs that he finds the action unpleasant. He has done so since the first time it ever came into play and put pressure on his face - there was no 'deciding' that this wasn't for him after all, any more than he 'decided' that being injected by the vet wasn't for him; he simply reacted to an unpleasant physical stimulus. And in the same way that I would generally not desensitise a horse to any other physical discomfort, I see no reason why I'd do the same in this case; or why it would be deemed a neccessary or acceptable approach.

So for me, that's one area that bits do offer something that bitless bridles don't (ie an acceptable form of communication for horses who are happy bitted but find the action of a bitless bridle uncomfortable). It was trying to explain my reasoning behind not persisting with an item of tack that physically does not work that caused me problems :o .

Rik - it's interesting that you say this; "Personally i wouldn't use any bit other than a snaffle, i don't think my hands are good enough to ride a horse that needs a more sever bit or a double bridle."

I won't get into the 'snaffles are the kindest bit' discussion here! :p but I will rephrase the question; would you expect someone with better hands than you feel you have to insist that a horse that dislikes a curb action but loves a snaffle goes in a curb bit regardless?

Kanuma

24th Dec 2005, 10:03 AM

just to backup what chev said, Harvey rears if you put a metal chain on his pelham, he dislikes the sensation of the links and the slight noise it makes, however he is fine with a leather curb.

i wont insist stan goest in a snaffle, he is happiest in a pelham and when my brother rides him (brother is a begginer) i simply take away the bottom rein so he cant bring the curb into action much! i occasionaly put him in a french link snaffle for dressage, and whilst he will go in it he is more tense and takes a hell of alot more skill to stop him explodeing. he seems fine with a double though!

i believe it is because he dislikes the pressure on the bars of his mouth from the snaffle as opposed to the curb and poll action of the pelham.

RodeoDreamer33

24th Dec 2005, 04:47 PM

and since a saddle on a horses back is useless without a bridle of some sort it is a logical progression.

just another question, Kanuma, why is a saddle on a horse's back without a bridle useless?? All of our horses are backed with a halter and lead rope. They're fully broke to halters and lead ropes to do anything. Our bits our only used for fine tuning.

by not introduceing to many things at once the pony/horse has less to worry about

Isn't being backed with a bridle in their mouth more for them to worry about then being backed in a halter which they have been in since they were a foal??

Kanuma

24th Dec 2005, 05:05 PM

RodeoDreamer33

24th Dec 2005, 07:03 PM

I'm not trying to jump on you I swear, but as many other people have said, a bridle, bitless or not, is not going to control a horse that wants to get out of a situation. That is a reason why we use just a halter, because the horse needs to be willing to be a partner with you and not have to be restrained to cooperate. Beforehand, our horses are so light and supple to halters that if something went wrong a one rein stop(that they previously learned how to give in to on the ground) is all we need. You can get nowhere in life if all your hrose wants to do is get out of the situation they're in. Besides, we are not jus jumping on our hroses that have never been backed. After having just a saddle on for days, they get used to just putting a foot in the stirrup, so really we are not just jumping on them for the first time. We gradually get to swinging one leg over and then back down. That's all the trama they have to go through for one day. Of course we are not just going to get on a horse who has never been backed before. We teach them to be comfortable with more and more body weight on them.

Rik

24th Dec 2005, 09:06 PM

I won't get into the 'snaffles are the kindest bit' discussion here! :p but I will rephrase the question; would you expect someone with better hands than you feel you have to insist that a horse that dislikes a curb action but loves a snaffle goes in a curb bit regardless?

Would i expect someone to ? Lets put it this way i know people do and i know people don't thats the point i was making, its interesting the different things people find acceptable.

If someone has just spent £100,000 on 3 year old KWPN Grand Prix prospect they are not going to make the distinction you make, they are going to insist the horse goes in a double bridle or whatever the requiered tack is for that level of dressage.

Someone like yourself who has purchased a horse for a different use is going to give the horse a choice over what type of bit/halter it likes the best, but equaly there will be people who have got a horse for the same use but won't give the horse a choice and whos to say after training/schooling it won't be as happy.

Which all come back to the point i was making Its interesting what different people find acceptable.

Personally if i was going to use a bit it would only be an egbert or full check french link snaffle.

I like the Dr Cook as a bitless bridle but would expect a horse to go in a holter whether its going to go in a bit or Dr Cook later on. I can get the same collection/outline in trot and canter in a Dr Cook or rope hackamore on my best friend and they don't compare to Carl Hesters outlines to badly so i don't see the need for bits for what we will be doing, that doesn't mean we couldn't get the same result in a bit, but i dont think you can just swap between a DR Cook and a bit without some reschooling as they comunicate with the horse differently. So i prefer to stick to 1 or the other.

Personally i disagree with your horses react over decide theory, but at the end of the day whether they react or decide the end product is the same.

But back to your question, i really am not sure I would be able to tell the difference between a horse that dislikes a certain type of bit but works through the dislike as opposed to one that is not used to the feel of it and once used to it would be happy, i mean when you change the type of bit i assume you need to change the way you use the rein as well ( I don't know the only bits i've used are snafles on my horses, appart from (Other peoples horses) bosals in Texas and curbs in Florida, Nevada, Mexico, Chile and Argentina and the horses seemed happy in these bits and i didn't ride them in anything else to compare.)

Rik

24th Dec 2005, 09:19 PM

if they are bitted a good while (year ish) before they are backed then no! they should feel the same in a bridle as in a halter, then once backed you dont have to worry about bitting, you can just get on with it!
also a bridle couild in this instance mean a bitless bridle, but i wouldnt want to get on something that is being sat on for the first time, when it is only wearing a halter and leadrope, too much can go wrong. even a bitless bridle has more security then a headcollar!

I'm affraid i disagree the feel of a holter will never be the same as a bridle.

This is a fairly common point of view in this country, but it doesn't take into account the breed of horse, some breed can be started younger as they mature faster and some need to be a bit older( Opps think this relates to another post but i'll leave it in anyway:)) or the ground work done before the horse is ridden for thirst time.

If you look round the world at other countries and see how they start horses you will find this view is not accepted in most other countries.

In January i was riding in Chile and Argentina and they have diferent view as do other countries like Australia, canada, US, Mongolia, New Zealand etc

Most cultures handle horses differently, its very interesting learning the different tecniques they use, even if you don't agree with them.

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 01:36 AM

i didnt say that it will feel the same as, i said they would feel as comfortable in a halter as in a bridle of some sort

esse

25th Dec 2005, 07:06 AM

...3 year old KWPN Grand Prix prospect they are not going to make the distinction you make, they are going to insist the horse goes in a double bridle or whatever the requiered tack

A 3yo already performing in a double would not be much of a prospect for anyone who had any thought as to the future of the horse.

it doesn't take into account the breed of horse, some breed can be started younger as they mature faster and some need to be a bit older

CODSWALLOP! What is it about FACTS that some people are unable to hear?

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 12:14 PM

A 3yo already performing in a double would not be much of a prospect for anyone who had any thought as to the future of the horse.

CODSWALLOP! What is it about FACTS that some people are unable to hear?

Usually when you buy a 3yo prospect, KWPN or other at a performace auction they are unbroken so would never have seen a double bridle to perform in or not, i don't see your point what do you mean ? I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick.

I didn't realise it was a FACT that all breeds of horses and ponies live to the same age and develop phsically and mentally at the same speed, i must get out more ;) maybee you could enlighten me as to the best time to start a MARWARI or a Florida Cracker ? and comment on there mental and phsical development at different ages ?

As you may have guessed i think your CODSWALLOP! is CODSWALLOP! but thats my opinion, we'll have to agree to dissagree :)

To say this is getting of topic is a bit of an understatement :)

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 12:32 PM

i didnt say that it will feel the same as, i said they would feel as comfortable in a halter as in a bridle of some sort
Ahh fare enough, i missunderstood sorry.:o

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 12:37 PM

physicaly they all mature at the same rate, ie bone ends fuse ets. mentaly they completely depends on the horse, ive got a 24 year old pony who still swearts he is 3. My arab didnt get over his baby stage till he was about 10. they other 2 are the type that were mently thier age!! whilst all were broken at about 3-4 years old, they were done at different paces and the arab didnt settle till about 10.

Rik nop problems is easy enough to do on on a forum

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 12:46 PM

physicaly they all mature at the same rate, ie bone ends fuse ets.

Is that the same for all breeds around the world i was under the imression they varied by up to a couple of years ?

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 12:48 PM

i think so yes, some one (chev maybe?) posted a very interesting article to that affect! i'll see if i can find it for you

MelanieD

25th Dec 2005, 03:45 PM

The only thing I can do bitted that I can't bitless is compete at dressage and shows. Fatty is okay bitted but does need a flash noseband to do exciting things as the brakes tend to be a bit dodgy. She's bitless (Dr Cook) most of the time at the moment and I have much more control than in a bit, even when galloping with friends and jumping ditches or with horse eating monsters around. She's the same to school in her bit or bitless, she's just as happy having a contact on her nose as in her mouth. OTOH riding in a rope halter left me with no steering and very dodgy brakes. It's important to find the right type of bitless bridle for the horse, just like finding the right kind of bit.

I'll probably be starting my youngster bitless. She will be mouthed and long reined a little to get used to a bit, but until her adult teeth are all through and settled and any wolf teeth dealt with I'll probably mostly use a bitless bridle. This is assuming she's happy with it but she's so easy to control leading in a plain headcollar I think there's a good chance she will be fine bitless.

chev

25th Dec 2005, 04:13 PM

If someone has just spent £100,000 on 3 year old KWPN Grand Prix prospect they are not going to make the distinction you make, they are going to insist the horse goes in a double bridle or whatever the requiered tack is for that level of dressage.[/QUOTE}

Hmm. I wouldn't be spending that kind of cash on an unbroken horse and to be honest I don't think there are actually that many Grand Prix riders who would be either. Not when decent horses with the same prospects who are already working well in doubles can be found for half that price. ;) I also think that most riders of that level would agree that forcing a horse to work in a bit that made it unhappy wouldn't get them to Grand Prix dressage competitions either. There's a lot involved in buying that kind of horse; and there are plenty of things like mouth and neck conformation that will give you a fiar idea of whether or not your expectations are realistic anyway.

[QUOTE=Rik]Someone like yourself who has purchased a horse for a different use is going to give the horse a choice over what type of bit/halter it likes the best, but equaly there will be people who have got a horse for the same use but won't give the horse a choice and whos to say after training/schooling it won't be as happy.

Well, I'm saying exactly that actually, as are a number of other people who've contributed to thsi thread (cvb and her gelding, kanuma and hers, No Angel and her mare to name just three....)

Personally if i was going to use a bit it would only be an egbert or full check french link snaffle.

Both of which Gelfy loathed. :) Neither fitted his mouth as well as the bit he currently wears - the straight loose ring happy mouth. And while the full cheek French link is a bit I also like for young horses, the horses themselves don't always agree.... so I'd rather fit the bit to each horse's mouth. You can't change conformation like thick tongues or narrow jaws however much you desensitise or school - and they do have a bearing on which bits suit and work best.

But back to your question, i really am not sure I would be able to tell the difference between a horse that dislikes a certain type of bit but works through the dislike as opposed to one that is not used to the feel of it and once used to it would be happy, i mean when you change the type of bit i assume you need to change the way you use the rein as well ( I don't know the only bits i've used are snafles on my horses, appart from (Other peoples horses) bosals in Texas and curbs in Florida, Nevada, Mexico, Chile and Argentina and the horses seemed happy in these bits and i didn't ride them in anything else to compare.)

Depends on the horse really. I adapt the way I use the rein according to the horse I'm riding, not neccessarily what bit it wears. Two of the horses I ride both wear loose ring french link snaffles. One is ridden on a fairly firm contact with the hands low, which she reacts well to, the other with a much softer, lighter contact and the hands raised a little. Obviously different bits have different actions, so you need to know how riding with each differs. As for how to tell whether they like it or not; well, to go back to Rhodri I think most people would twig it's physically uncomfortable after two years of headshaking, lip flapping and tongue chewing each and every time the halter tightens and puts pressure on.... but other than that, it's about listening to the horse, knowing how that horse is likely to react in a new situation, whether they put up with things quietly or shout about it - it's really a matter of getting to know and understand them. They're all different.

Maturation in horses; well yes, they all mature at roughly the same rate skeletally (some breeds develop mature musculature before others but the bones and joints don't mature any faster) with the exception of some draft and native breeds who mature slightly slower at times. Even TBs raced at twelve months are skeletally no more mature than any other breed. Link to article here;

Dr Deb's Article (http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html)

One last point; I don't think bitting is always neccessary before backing. I've done it both ways with equal success, and you only have to look at showjumper's Dolly and Arabmare's Kahli to see bitting doesn't have to be part of the process.

Afellpony

25th Dec 2005, 04:22 PM

Yes, I wondered that too, how can you have a Pelham Hackamore? I thought Hackamores were bitless.:eek:

No_Angel

25th Dec 2005, 05:05 PM

you can quite easily have a pelham hackamore, ive made one. basically pelham cheeks with a strap across the nose and a curb chain.
not as technical as it sounds;)
if people are so interested in it and canr believe it real i could take a picture for you?:)

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 05:30 PM

Hmm. I wouldn't be spending that kind of cash on an unbroken horse and to be honest I don't think there are actually that many Grand Prix riders who would be either. Not when decent horses with the same prospects who are already working well in doubles can be found for half that price. ;) I also think that most riders of that level would agree that forcing a horse to work in a bit that made it unhappy wouldn't get them to Grand Prix dressage competitions either. There's a lot involved in buying that kind of horse; and there are plenty of things like mouth and neck conformation that will give you a fiar idea of whether or not your expectations are realistic anyway.

My wife used to work for the BSJA i think you would be surprised what people pay for performance prospects, i can asure you the figure i mentioned was very conservative.

Well, I'm saying exactly that actually, as are a number of other people who've contributed to thsi thread (cvb and her gelding, kanuma and hers, No Angel and her mare to name just three....)

I don't doubt you, but you all seem to be the type of people who use the approach that is very gentle and get the horse used to things slowly over time. If however you were using a wham bam desensitise the hell out of them in a few hours method the horse would be as happy (as much as you can tell) before you even thought it might not be happy with the bit.

For example most of the colt starting clinitions use the same bit on all the horses they start, i think John/Josh Lyons .

You talked eariler in one post of never having a problem introducing a saddle to horses you have started, i've seen first hand horses going over when they have a saddle put on them for the first time and they said it was fine the horse just needed to work it out for himself, now i know some people will say thats terrible you should have introduced the saddle in a less confontational way as you do, but this was Ray Hunt who has started over 10,000 colts and is considered by some as the greatest living horseman.

Maturation in horses; well yes, they all mature at roughly the same rate skeletally (some breeds develop mature musculature before others but the bones and joints don't mature any faster) with the exception of some draft and native breeds who mature slightly slower at times. Even TBs raced at twelve months are skeletally no more mature than any other breed. Link to article here;

Dr Deb's Article (http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html)

In this article it says up to 1 years difference in breeds and this seems to be i haven't had chance to read it all one Dr.s opinoin, i may be wrong i'll look into it when i get chance. Another intersting thing to look into :)

chev

25th Dec 2005, 07:18 PM

I don't doubt you, but you all seem to be the type of people who use the approach that is very gentle and get the horse used to things slowly over time. If however you were using a wham bam desensitise the hell out of them in a few hours method the horse would be as happy (as much as you can tell) before you even thought it might not be happy with the bit.

To an extent. It took me an hour to get an unhandled colt to walk nicely on a halter. Rhodri was properly mouthed in three sessions lasting up to an hour each. I don't see the point in flooding (or desensitising the hell out of them, to put it your way) - it's a horrific practice that does nothing to teach a horse that you are prepared to listen to his concerns at all.

You talked eariler in one post of never having a problem introducing a saddle to horses you have started, i've seen first hand horses going over when they have a saddle put on them for the first time and they said it was fine the horse just needed to work it out for himself, now i know some people will say thats terrible you should have introduced the saddle in a less confontational way as you do, but this was Ray Hunt who has started over 10,000 colts and is considered by some as the greatest living horseman.

I've also seen a horse go over backward the first time the saddle was introduced - with no previous gentle introductions. The mare ended up brain damaged and was put down. A friend had a cob who was backed in a hurry; he appeared to accept the level of desensitising until it got too much on day 3 and he threw his rider big time. He broke her leg so badly she never walked without crutches again, and her back was injured badly enough she'll never ride independantly.

One of my mares was 'desensitised' to the halter in the same way. It resulted in horrific muscle damage and soft tissue injury and serious psychological problems.

Sure, the people who did this can probably say each one was a one-off; but I just don't get the approach that writes horses off in this way. Why on earth would I want to railroad over an animal that if I treat right and with the respect it deserves will give everything to me in return? Why would I want to take teh chance that they'll be injured, or killed? Why would I want a horse that lives with what I do because it has no choice?

There are very good reasons I take my time and listen to my horses. And no-one who approaches horses with the rigid idea that they *will* get used to it whatever will ever be what I consider a good horseman.

There are also a huge number of studies that support Dr Deb's findings (including thousands of x-rays of growing horses' joints). It's not just one Doctor's opinion at all.

You don't seem prepared to listen to anything other than what you want to hear; anything anyone says that might offer a new viewpoint is instantly either not worthy or just one person's opinion.

I try and keep my mind open in my work with horses; not least to the horses themselves. I find this thread increasingly frustrating now. :( It doesn't matter what evidence you're presented with that gives an alternative point of view; you just don't want to hear it.

My gelding... well, he's been down the road of wham-bam desensitising. It didn't work. Some horses will have you believe they're happy just to get along. Some will actually be happy. Some - well some will just keep reacting to discomfort, and fear, and lack of confidence and if you don't *start* listening and give a little back either you'll get hurt, or they will.

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 07:33 PM

i wouldnt dream of flooding a horse ever! i want stan to go over a tarpaulin without problem, so i start with getting one foot on it and go from there! it can take months! Id much rather see a pony happy and trusting me not to put it in danger, then so shcocked it cant do anything else. you flood a horse and you are asking for problems later on!
ive seen horses being taught to tie up by chaining them to a fence untill they stopped fighting it! it never works properly, it just scares them and causes untold amounts of damage. however the ones that have been taught properly and sensitively are fine and have no problems with it and are not scared out of thier minds! we introduced one to tieing up by tieing him next to his mum (bailer twine and rope) mum didnt have any problems with it so neither did the foal, he stood thier quiet as a lamb, and 5 mins later he was rewarded and put back in the field to go play, at no point was he left alone and at no point was he pulling back.(i think we confused his mum but never mind)

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 10:12 PM

You don't seem prepared to listen to anything other than what you want to hear; anything anyone says that might offer a new viewpoint is instantly either not worthy or just one person's opinion.

I'm affraid as a scientist, i don't believe anything until its proven, possibly not the best thing in the equine world :p

I'm a little confused, i don't think other then the age a horse matures, i've expressed an opinon on what i accept and what i don't :confused: I have put forward alternatives to your opinions which are not necessarily mine (or may be) but are widely held, but not neccesarily on this board.

I agree i find this thread particulary frustrating as all i said was its intersting how different people/trainers/cultures find different things acceptable.

You haven't once said yes they do but i don't agree with such an such menthods, you have gone on about how horse should be give the choice and should not be forced into things e.g. bits/halters and how not giving the horse an option is wrong, i havn't once dissagreed with your methods only talked about other alternative methods.

As the case you have present on horse maturity, you say "they all mature at roughly the same rate skeletally" then point to one study thats says it varies up to a year between breeds, without menioning how many breeds, and number of horses per breed have been used in the sample, this does not prove anything, but i have not said its wrong, only 1 study proves nothing especially with no sample information and that i think its worth looking into :)

As for horses and rider being injured i've seen those to on horse boken in the usual Eglish way with genlte introduction of the saddle with lots iof work on the lunge before and after saddleing before the horse is even mounted, but i've seen those horse tank throgh post and rail fences breaking riders legs and one horse which went over and fractured its skull (NOT A MEMORY I LIKE TO THINK OF)

None of which have anything to do with my point which i kept making " its intersting how different people/trainers/cultures find different things acceptable"

A say kept becasue from my side you don't seem to acknowledge anything that you have not decided is fact or the way you think it should be done, so i belive this thread is dead as were way off topic and you and i speak differnt languges.

I hope you have a nice Xmas and your horses get lots of carrots for xmas :)

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 10:25 PM

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 10:59 PM

Your right something is only proven for a specific time, but thats the best we can do, we cant see into the future and have to assume its correct until proven wrong later, if that makes sense :p

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 11:05 PM

yes but when new information comes to light you take the old theory and turn it into a new and better one!
for example i know that they used to (and in some places still do) brake horses by tieing them down untill they couldnt move and forceing everything on them. this is where the term break a horse comes from as it used to break thier will. now we know this is not acceptable.

Rik

25th Dec 2005, 11:24 PM

Rik, i too am a scientist, however ive looked into this, read that article, and a few others, i have access to the university vetinary library (nice friend even though its not my course), have had a look, talked to quite a few vets about it, includeing my own vet who is a specialist! ive talked to people like richard maxwell as well (alternative methods guy). they all come to the same conclusion that horses mature skelataly at roughly the same rate, but mentaly at completely different rate. this is why it upsets me to see horses broken earlier then 3, it does so much damage. its like forceing a young child to run the full maraton you are asking for problems later in life!

I don't doubt those findings but (i know ;) ), wouldn't you need to have studied most if not all of the breeds of horse and pony that are in the world not just the mainstreem breads in say Europe and America which are probably the breeds these studies are based on, as in some of the 3rd world countries where some breeds are native, don't have vets to add to the studies, i mean there is a breed of horse in Iran that it is illegal to export so its pretty unlikly it would be included in the study.

But i'm quite happy to be wrong, its just all the studies i've seen (I've been looking on the internet, not ideal i know) don't say which breeds were used in the studies or the number of each breed looked at.

I might add i'm not suggesting they should be started but, that different countries/cultures belive the horses are mature enoght to ride at different ages, i think i said they differ by up to 2 years.

I think i'm going to bow out of this discussion now :)

Kanuma

25th Dec 2005, 11:30 PM

i think the information that is missing from the internet is missing because of the bulk of it and the fact that they have limited space on the internet to put it up. i know that for a goood few lab reports of mine there has been about 3 pages of writeing and about 40 pages of graphs, tables and speadsheets full of data and results collecteed from the experiment, and there normaly isnt that much going on in the experiments.
i think its a pretty good guess to say there would be alot more data involved when dealing with a liveing animal then with a machine or with chemicals

oh and ive only collected info on this because earlier discussions peaked my interest i seem to collect info on the most random of things and get frustrated when i cant find all the info i want!

KarinUS

26th Dec 2005, 12:47 AM

...wouldn't you need to have studied most if not all of the breeds of horse and pony that are in the world not just the mainstreem breads in say Europe and America which are probably the breeds these studies are based on, as in some of the 3rd world countries where some breeds are native, don't have vets to add to the studies, i mean there is a breed of horse in Iran that it is illegal to export so its pretty unlikely it would be included in the study.

Actually to me if somebody showed proof that the breeds that are commonly believed to be 'fast maturing' such as Quarter Horses and Tennessee Walking Horses, etc. (mainstream as you call them) do in fact not show these traits upon examination of the proclaimed fast maturers then that would be enough for me to cast doubt on the claim in general.
Kind of like when you figure out the evidence speaks against the existence of Santa Claus and you start to get suspicious about the Easter Bunny.
However it is everybody's choice to consider the available evidence and draw their conclusions - or choosing to believe in 'special powers', ignoring the available evidence and believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. On that note: Merry Christmas. :)

RodeoDreamer33

26th Dec 2005, 01:18 AM

Not to sound harsh:) , but I was really looking forward to reading other people's views on this thread as far as BIT AND BITLESS is concerned!! I think another thread would be very interesting on the maturity of horses and different breeds or whatever the mumble-jumble you're talking about, but I was just wondering, as politely as i can say it.....Can WE PLEASE GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC????:p

and of course, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!:D

chev

26th Dec 2005, 02:10 PM

Original topic; what does bitted offer that bitless doesn't.

My answer; access to a varity of competitions that don't allow bitless riding for a start.

An alternative to horses like my Rhodri who really dislike bitless pressures. That's where it all fell apart a bit; Rik insists that a horse like that, if started another way (the wham-bam desensitising method, I think) would accept the pressure and be happy with bitless.

Given that I've owned and worked with this horse for two years, I simply felt I was probably in a better posiition to judge that; and I disagree. So do many other people who also own horses that really dislike certain bits or bitless options.

Having had a look at Ray Hunt's website (very little is said about his actual training methods though - so I won't even start to form an opinion on how he desensitises or not) I do think that Rik gives to an extent the wrong impression of Ray's approach. The question and answer section in particular reveals a philosophy that in fact is fairly close to my 'slow and gentle' methods.... expecially in one question about handling untouched three year olds. Ray's advice is to take things very slowly, feed them grain to build up their confidence, and handle them as they approach and as they become happy with the idea; a very far cry from the impression I got of one who just gets on with it and expects the horse to fall in line and be happy.

As for the maturation question; not being a scientist a maturation rate that varies by around a year did seem to tally with my comment about "roughly the same rate". Apologies if my view of the world is less precise and therefore confusing. I'm unsure how that came to be relevant; I just responded to a post.

Rik, I have to admit that I assumed that what you posted was indeed your opinion. Nowhere did you state otherwise when making comments such as "If however you were using a wham bam desensitise the hell out of them in a few hours method the horse would be as happy (as much as you can tell) before you even thought it might not be happy with the bit." that they were not in fact your opinion.

I don't have any one way of doing things. I try and adapt my approach according to each horse I work with; so sometimes my way of working will reflect what you say, other times, it won't. So I do accept that there is a place for all these different approaches; but that's just it... room for *all* the different approaches.

Happy New Year! :)

tazzle22

26th Dec 2005, 04:29 PM

Discussions do have a way of evolving don't they :)

and I think that the thread does show that all the contributers are thinking about what they are doing with their equines and not blindly following "just because" and THAT IS A GOOD THING

the problem I think is that everything we do with horses involves pressure and release, densensitisation and decisions as to what is "too much", what is sensitivity, what is discomfort and what is resistance. Much of the time this is down to individual interpretation and varies for different horses, different humans and different combinations.

Also although we all tend to know our own horses best and therefore their their likes , dislikes, strengths and weaknesses ..... sometimes we do need an "outsiders" view in order to be objective or to add another point of view.
Sometimes this means changing poeronal opinion .. I know I have certainly evolved a lot over the past few years because of input from other people as well as my own research.

As was said really ........ unless we do our own research we tend to have to take other peoples and compare / evaluate it and come to our own conclusions as to whether we agree or not...... but be able to rationalise and take responsibility for the decision ( eg for me ..... the choice to have Taz driven blinkerless despite a "majority" view of most drivers)

and we return neatly ;) to

Original topic; what does bitted offer that bitless doesn't.

My answer; access to a varity of competitions that don't allow bitless riding for a start.

true ... think we all agree on that :D It is then down to individuals as to whether to give up completely or try to change the views of those that make the rules.................. me, I am doing the second :rolleyes:

I am not a good enough rider and dont have an experienced enough horse to be able to demonstrate that as far as I am concerned you can do everything else with or without a bit .... have seen far better horsefolk than me get some rather "wow" moves from bitless horses..... I dont really however know sufficient about "high level" dressage to make any further comment than that really ....

eat , drink and be merry ;)

FRED

26th Dec 2005, 06:51 PM

Back to the questions:re Parelli not using bits for learners ?,I think this is a very good idea {in a safe environment}
Just think about school horses being jerked in the mouth,or riders who have found out they can balance via the reins in trot{a very poor practise} , but some do.
What ever we use, there will be the odd clumsy moment,the horse trips for instance, no matter how quick you are releasing the reins,there is a delay and he can be pulled in the mouth.

Re bits, I know that you can have finesse with a bit, I know that horses like to know what you want them to do. I use the reins as a very subtle communication along with my legs and seat,if you have a horse that anticipates or goes of track,good rein use will help to make these problems history,but not by force,we are talking very subtle,even on a huge powerful horse like Jay{Cleveland Bays crossed with TBs were originally breed for carriage work and extra speed over the std Clevelland Bay}.
Now this leads onto another question,if he were to receive more training,then at some point you may be able to say forget the bit,but I wouldn't like to have tried the later 1st,believe me..

I do have a photo of a horse who went bitless,you can see two clear marks from very poor rein use.

Rik

26th Dec 2005, 10:23 PM

As Kanuma has said its quite easy to misunderstand on a forum.

Sorry i made the mistake of thinking people knew who Ray Hunt is, after all its a Natural horsmanship forum :rolleyes: :p

If your lucky enough to see Ray Hunt. he'll say "I'm here for the horse first, to get him a better deal, here for myself second and you (the audience) can have whats left"

I believe you won't find anyone alive who cares more about the horse or can comunicate as well with them.

Another one of his saying is "do as little as possible but as much as is necessary"

Which translates to him being very firm when the need arises, which i don't think you will probaly agree with again chev, but i could be wrong.

The example i gave did happen and the process of saddling up a horse then turning it loose to buck and in some cases go over is used by most of the top clinitions in the states and Australia. The purpose is for the horse to work out for itself quickly that the saddle isn't going to hurt it, again i don't think your going to approve chev, the reason i included it was to show how the best horsemen in the world use techniques that some people may find unacceptable, that are proven to work and in the long run can (depending on your point of view) be more effective and better that long drawn out get a horse slowly used to the tack as stress free as possible methods for the horse.

Back on the original topic, i think there were two or three realy good explenations on how PNH uses bits as training tools. An interesting point was made by chev about how a jointed bit can be used to offer more ques than a bitless.

And an intesrting point was made about whether it was possible to train a horse to high level of dressage in a biless bridle without first teaching it with a bit, also i belive by chev.

Oh and some nice bitless driving information too:)

sheil

27th Dec 2005, 06:44 AM

... im sure ive seen someone working at a high level in just a bitless bridle on another forum.

This may be the thread No_Angel was referring to "Bitless Bridle, How far can you get with a bitless?" (http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/members/forums/index.php?showtopic=2296&st=0) - in any case there is some excellent reading there relevant to the original topic "What does bitted riding offer that bitless doesn't"

Hope you are all having a lovely Christmas :)

chev

27th Dec 2005, 09:11 AM

Sorry i made the mistake of thinking people knew who Ray Hunt is, after all its a Natural horsmanship forum :rolleyes: :p

Hey, I'm still learning. :p An interest in NH doesn't mean I know of all the people working within it (yet!).

Which translates to him being very firm when the need arises, which i don't think you will probaly agree with again chev, but i could be wrong.

Absolutely agree with it. There are plenty of situations that mean being firm (even very firm!) is neccessary. Rhodri once reared at me when faced with a narrow doorway and a step down into a stable. I know the reason behind the rear was fear and insecurity about going into a threartening-looking entrance.... but he reared. Some behaviours do need a much firmer approach, even if the root cause needs addressing in a more thoughtful way afterwards. You cannot afford not to be firm when it's needed.

The example i gave did happen and the process of saddling up a horse then turning it loose to buck and in some cases go over is used by most of the top clinitions in the states and Australia. The purpose is for the horse to work out for itself quickly that the saddle isn't going to hurt it, again i don't think your going to approve chev, the reason i included it was to show how the best horsemen in the world use techniques that some people may find unacceptable, that are proven to work and in the long run can (depending on your point of view) be more effective and better that long drawn out get a horse slowly used to the tack as stress free as possible methods for the horse.

Again, I can see your point. But I feel that the more we can do to reduce the risk of injury the better. There's no way I'd turn a horse likely to react that way loose - partly because of the serious risk of damage to the horse, partly because of the risk of damage to the saddle! - I'd rather take my time and lessen the risk. You can never remove the risk. To use the example of my mare with the torn neck muscles - there's a method of halter training that certainly 'works' in that every horse that's swung learns to respect the halter very quickly and be 'happy' being led. But while I've seen a huge number of injuries caused by that method, and sadly even one death, I've never seen any directly caused by slow and steady halter training.

It's a fine line between giving the horse the responsibility for his actions (or reactions) and judging when that's really not being fair.

And back to bitless... ;)

It is then down to individuals as to whether to give up completely or try to change the views of those that make the rules.................. me, I am doing the second

I'd love to try showing the Welshies bitless. The problem I have is that I have to be able to show them, not be sent out of the ring for not turning out in accordance with the rules because the prices I get for my stock does largely depend on their show record.

Rules for ridden showing state; " 21.2 Bridle A snaffle or double bridle or pelham. Cavesson noseband, plain brow band, not brass as with in-hand bridles. " Rules for colts state; "1.2 In the interest of safety all stallions and colts, two years old or over must be suitably bitted and led by a handler that has attained their 14th birthday before January 1st of the current year."

So if mine are not bitted, as it stands I can't show them. :( Perhaps letters to the society would eventually help... although they don't have the greatest record of listening to their members (this is the society that recently announced plans to introduce an extra section with no discussion at all with its UK membership :( )

Not so much giving up as not really knowing how to go about changing things without doing my stock a disservice. :(

Crystal Fire

27th Dec 2005, 03:43 PM

I think introducing a bit can refine communication, not all of us actually need that level of refinement though. For many the work they can do bitless is as far as they want to go. I have a horse who seems to prefer to be bitted, he was 9 when I got him. I've worked through bitless to check all the yields I want are in place, but now ride him with a bit because it's not broken so no need to fix it.
I am all for teaching people bitless first, on properly trained horses of course. And if the horses are properly trained then a safe environment is whatever you would consider safe for a bitted horse. Beginners can be run away with whether the horse has a piece of metal in it's mouth or not, as I am sure we will all agree :D
Now this leads onto another question,if he were to receive more training,then at some point you may be able to say forget the bit,but I wouldn't like to have tried the later 1st,believe me..
That made me think Fred. We are all a product of our experiences. Some years ago I too would never have considered going bitless before bitted, in fact I wouldn't have considered going bitless at all apart from the odd potter in the headcollar. Now though my experience is the opposite. I have been lucky enough to spend time with some "natural" horse trainers and they all start the horses bitless and progress to bitted. Some of you know the person I've spent most time with is Steve Halfpenny. Back home he works day in day out starting young horses and helping with problem horses. All shapes and sizes, bolters, rearers, stallions... the full range. Problem horses are re-started to get their basics sorted. Every single horse is ridden bitless. All of the horses are started in a rope halter (with 1 rein). If he can't ride the horse out safely through his 160 odd acres of scrub in a rope hackamore then he won't take the next step of introducing the bit.
It's different to the way we commonly do things, but it is very safe, and it works. When people visit they ride out on Steve's horses in bridles or rope hackamores, it doesn't matter. They are safe.
This is not exceptional in "natural horsemanship".

Rik

27th Dec 2005, 10:42 PM

Absolutely agree with it. There are plenty of situations that mean being firm (even very firm!) is neccessary.

But how people decide when to be firm is where the differences can be found, most people decide when to be firm from a humans point of view .e.g. (as in your example) the horse rears and for safety reasons or whatever it has to be delt with usually firmly, but the rest of the time its a gentle approach. (Not saying you do or i don't;))

Others decide when to be firm based on how horse behave, which can mean being firm at the begining of a horses training. (Not saying i do or you don't;))

I'm sure you've seen the way horses decide who gets the water first or the best pile of hay etc. especially when a new horse is introduced to a herd, the horses higher up in the herd get very firm straight away if a lower member tries drinking water or eating a hay pile when they want it.

It doesn't take long before the more senior horse just has to look at the other horse and it move off straight away alowing the senior horse to get what it wants without any fuss and everything is harmonious:)

It may not be an ideal way to sort out differences to us and is prone to injurys in some cases but its how horses live.

Obviously there is a lot of skill and feel for the horse neded to use these techniques sucessfully and safely.

Back on topic ;)

The other thread is interesting and more photos are great :), the photos of the trot were nice, but i still havn't seen many pictures in canter and i know from experience it harder to get a nice canter than trot, lateral work was also nice to see :)

I wondered who it was you went out to see in Oz Crystal Fire, my wife got me the Silversands horsemanship Videos a couple of months ago :) Nice to see that not all Australians are hard on there horses as is sometimes thought.

Defenatly my last post on the thread promise :D

Crystal Fire

27th Dec 2005, 11:38 PM

...or is it Rik? As I'm going to answer your question! I have been to see Steve Halfpenny and stayed at Silversand for a month the last 3 years running. Love watching him work with the horses, love riding with him and I'e learnt so much from him. Last year I saw Philip Nye when he was at Silversand for a 5 day clinic. Was supposed to be riding with him next April, but my funds have been eaten by a greedy house :( In Australia have also seen Phil Rodey in action, he's very impressive. I organise some of the UK clinics for Steve.
I've got some early DVD's of Steve young horse starting, really good and so much more sympathetic than some of the other natural trainers I've watched. Of course the start is all bitless.
I have a DVD of a clinic that we had in Surrey this year, with some very good bitless riding, walk trot and canter with collection. It might take me a while, but I'll see if I can get my head around how to take a clip or two and put them on the Net for people to see. It's relevant to say that the two riders I have in mind also rode with a bit at the same clinic, they change between the two styles.
I forget how alien it is to many people to think of riding in a rope halter, it has been part of my life for so long. I own a big strong cob who takes off with people from time to time and can honestly say that he will do it regardless of the ironmongery in his mouth or otherwise. What has helped a lot though is the work he's done on getting soft and responsive and yielding, and that was all done in a rope hackamore.

tazzle22

29th Dec 2005, 01:40 AM

So if mine are not bitted, as it stands I can't show them. Perhaps letters to the society would eventually help... although they don't have the greatest record of listening to their members (this is the society that recently announced plans to introduce an extra section with no discussion at all with its UK membership )

and thereby lies the problem chev :rolleyes: while the powers that be have people who make money out of their horses by the short and curlies things will NOT change ..... people will not "buck the system" they depend upon :eek:

I must admit I fail to see the logic of why a bridle / bit needs to be specified in a showing class !!!!!!!!!!! Uniformity maybe ...... but my goodness aren't you hiding much of the head with double bridles ?????

It is a catch 22 situation ...... we need to be able to demonstrate to the powers to be that bitless can be just as safe as bitted ...... but the rules do not allow competitors to do so. Unless there are sufficient riders / drivers / showers prepared to go hors concurs then there will be no "official proof " to influence the rulemakers and at least open the rules up a little.... and until the rules are relaxed how many riders of sufficient expereince and quality wil be preapred to forgo rosettes / prize money / "prestige". Look at the comments some people made about Lucinda Macalpine when she started keeping her horses "naturally".!!!!

Most of the people who curently ride / drive bitless are not much concerned much with competitive showing /dressage etc .... and no matter how "good" they are they are not see by those who might have the influence to change the rules and perhaps allow some "cross fertilisation" :D

Personally I have no interest in "competitive" horsemanship ..... and often wonder why I keep coming back to bother about "rules".. ....

I guess its because I am aware that still the majority of riders learn in riding schools ...... that are often regulated by BHS .......

....that young people join the pony club ......very influenced by Rules !!!!

..... and they enter shows or get involved with clubs /societies where the rules, even at local level, are FEI influenced.

So Options for any young person are therefore limited if they want to "join in" with other horse minded youngsters... it is VERY hard for any youngster interested in NH to join in with friends and get accepted with their pony using the tack it is used to. A local youngster was initially refused entry to pony club as she wanted to ride pony in a rope hackamore , something she was very safe doing. Although commisioner did eventually give written permission for her to go with it she still had to have a bit put in for the dressage etc !!!

My own daughter was caught very much between the two "cultures" .. she could see what I suggested was working with her horse ..... but peer pressure was just too much and she wanted to go show jumping with her friends !!!!!

I think that if it were possible even at club level for bitless bridles to be used and "powers that be" see that bitless horse not only do not trash the place because they are "uncontrollable" ... but can actually get placed.... than horses would be able to take part in what suits them best .. bitted or not.

..... and if it really is true that a bit is needed "to demonstrate obedience / relaxation at the poll" then bitless horses will never win a dressage competition ;)

mm late now ... and I have rambled again :D

night night

Lgd

29th Dec 2005, 09:57 AM

The only affiliated disciplines which do not permit bitless are dressage and showing.

The problem presented in dressage really relates to the scales of training and judging. One of the scales of training is 'contact' - I was certainly taught that with a hackamore there should be little or no contact unless control was needed and that it should be released as soon as the desired effect was achieved - to hold a contact risks severe damage to the nerves that lie over the nasal bone, and as Fred has pointed out he has seen scarring in horses ridden bitless. So, immediately bang goes one of the main points in the scale, disregarding the effect on the other areas of the scales of training, this also makes it virtually impossible to judge - I must judge a rider on his/her mastery of the scales of training in relation to the horse presented to me. How am I supposed to judge and compare 'contact' between the two different methods when the 'contact' required is so completely different. To get a level playing field you would need to have bitless only classes.

As Chev also pointed out, some horses resent the pressure of a bitless bridle. Peri is quite happy to accept pressure anywhere, yet when I bought her a 'kinder' bridle that relieves poll pressure she would not settle in it long term, yet Tavia, her 'partner in crime' loves it.

And as an aside/P.S. yes - young dressage prospects do go for £100K+ prices :eek: although that sort of price is generally reserved for something pretty special. Actually, dressage prospects are currently selling for far higher prices than the jumpers. Just as risky as the racehorse side too, as recently (and sadly) demonstrated. Poetin was world champion 5yo dressage horse and sold for 2.5 million euros to the Netherlands, she was recently sold again in a bankruptcy sale for close on 1 million euros, despite her having been 'retrieved' by the liquidators from a vet clinic where she was undergoing investigation/treatment for lameness - the liquidators reckoned the owners were trying to hide her. Sadly, 3 months later the original owners' explanation has been vindicated, as the mare has had to be put down due to intractable pain from lameness. An Olympic GP horse currently 'retails' at prices in excess of £1 million (or more if it is a stallion)

Afellpony

29th Dec 2005, 11:03 AM

If we'd used the 'wham bam' method of desensitising Falcon, then he would've gone to pieces and no one would've been able to get near him!

Afellpony

29th Dec 2005, 11:10 AM

In answer to Rodeo Dreamer about a direct reply re bitting is....I only use the bit when I need it. The rest of the time, I ride using body language. If I want to go left, I put more weight on my left seat bone etc etc etc. If I use the bit strongly or more than I should, my pony doesn't like it, it's not the way he was broken. I know it's not 'refined' riding but I ride him purely for pleasure and try to do so as kindly as I possibly can.

tazzle22

29th Dec 2005, 05:09 PM

to hold a contact risks severe damage to the nerves that lie over the nasal bone, and as Fred has pointed out he has seen scarring in horses ridden bitless

I can most certainly see the point with regard to hackamores, they can indeed be a severe form of contact ...... however there are bitless bridles around now that are far less severe in their contact and can be used more like the sort of contact you would have in perhaps a french link. One can, if you want to, retain contact lightly ... and is that not what is desirable anyway . Shouldn't a well ridden dressage test entail the horse being able to maintain a good working outline with minimal contact? Just as a dressage judge should be aware of the different formats a bit has ..... surely becoming aware of the few bitless bridles is easy. Unless you have every horse in each class in exactly the same bit then how much difference is is actually going to make if you have some without a bit in. You can still see with a bitless bridle whether there is tension in rider or horse or whether the horse and rider are communicating in a relaxed and effective manner. You can still see whether the horse is engaged / rounded and tracking up, you can still see whether the head and neck are relaxed and accepting. At basic level are you asking for that much more ????

Some newer bitless bridles are as different from a german / english hackamore as a french link from a twisted snaffle. I would not class all bits the same so why should all bitless be ? I drive Taz in a dr cooks but I doubt if I could achieve that in a hackamore as the action is much different.

ANY peice ot tack misused can cause damage . I have seen damage from rope halters as well as various bits but the items in themselves used as they should be should not lead to harm. I can see the point of the rules against bitless bridles when the only option was a hackamore ...... but no longer.

I think that horses should be allowed to compete in whatever headgear they are comfortable and responsive in !