Another 'Guess the breed' thread... Pinto

[Casey76]

Would anyone like to try and have a go at guessing Pintos breeding?

On purchase I was told he was a Percheron x Pinto. He is unregistered, and no details of his parentage are available. Given that 'Pinto' is a colour and not a breed, I have been wondering what his mystery half could be.

A couple of photos...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/oconnka4/PintoChristmas20052.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/oconnka4/DSCF0187b.jpg

And... British Native breeds are pretty rare in the Alsace region of France... so get your thinking hats on! ;)

[KarinUS]

Easy: PercheronXPaint cross. :)
Not sure about France but here's some info on the breed Pinto... (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/pinto/)

[LouHarvey]

Paint isn't a recognised breed in the UK/Europe either..

Hmm.. Don't forget that most breeds come in coloured varities, especially if they are unregistered. So his mystery half could be anything, not necessarily just something that 'usually' comes in a coloured finish!

He's lovely, though - shame about all the mane! Cliphimhoghimtakeoffhislegfluff! LoL.. Only joking, though he would look VERY smart clipped out and hogged! What a handsome boy you have, and what a beautiful view of that little town in the first photo!

[KarinUS]

I can see why Pinto would be considered color rather than breed. But the American Paint Horse is a breed just like the American Quarterhorse with pedigrees etc. Like you couldn't register a colored cob as a APH, etc.

[LouHarvey]

In Europe and the United Kingdom, as I said above, the Paint is NOT recognised as a breed.

[KarinUS]

How about Quarterhorses. Do they recognize Quarterhorses as a breed?

[LouHarvey]

Yes, Quarterhorses are a recognised breed although in my experience they are not very popular. They are becoming more popular now though as western riding becomes more fashionable.

I quote from Elwyn Hartley Edward's 'Ultimate Book of The Horse' -

The Pinto descends from the Spanish Horses exported to America in the sixteenth century. The Pinto, also called the Paint Horse or Calico, is a horse distinguished by it's colouration and found all over the world. It only has breed status in America.

[KarinUS]

But Pinto and Paint is not the same at all.
Pinto can be a colored horse of many different breeds. Paint has to have the colorful coat pattern but in addition American Paint Horses have strict bloodline requirements and a distinctive stock-horse body type. To be eligible for registry, a Paint's sire and dam must be registered with the American Paint Horse Association, the American Quarter Horse Association, or the Jockey Club (Thoroughbreds). At least one parent must be a registered American Paint Horse.

Hartley Edwards uses the terms interchangable as if it was the same type of horse?

[LouHarvey]

Neither Pintos nor Paints are recognised as breeds either here or in Europe, so for the purpose of this thread it really is inconsequential that they are two different breeds in America.

[KarinUS]

Well the purpose of the thread was for people to have a guess at the breed- which I did! :D Sorry, LouHarvey if you find my input inconsequential.
I am sure now that you have made it clear that the criteria was that the breed had to be recognized in the UK we will get lots more qualified input! :p

[Pink's lady]

He's very unlikey to be a Paint (breed) X - you just don't get them over here - and if you did they wouldn't be recognised as one anyway, as it's confirmation and shape, not colour, that dictates breeding. That doesn't mean to say he's not a coloured x ;)

He's quite pony-ish in his looks so I'd have said some non-discript homoygous coloured crossed pony-type with a heavy breed (i.e percheron)

Don't forget that most breeds come in coloured varities, especially if they are unregistered

No, they don't - very few breeds have true tobiano markings. But almost every breed will throw up sabino markings every now and agian. Pinto (the horse, not the breed ;)) is a 'true' coloured (i.e tobiano) and therefore MUST have a coloured heritage somewhere. The only pure-breds I can think of that allow coloured is warm-bloods, Icelandics and shetlands. Any other coloured horse breed must have a cross somewhere in it.

[LouHarvey]

I wasn't arguing the fact that he was a coloured. My point was that he couldn't be a Paint cross as Paint's do not exist over here or Europe (where the horse is kept and most likely bred!).

He looks as though he could have more than just two breeds in his bloodlines, a bit of a Heinz 57 with something coloured thown in for luck!

[kirstie]

I know that all of you are probably right about the breed of this horse but i think its got a bit of cob in it because of the chuncky head and body.

[Casey76]

Cor... isn't my gorgeous horsey kicking up a discussion? (Makes a change from bringing the fences down :rolleyes: :p)

I guess he probably is a Heinz57, but it is his colour which interests me as coloured horses in my local area are in a VERY small minority.

Basically I doubt the Percheron aspect too... there are too many differences between the Percheron breed standard any my boy - the main one being Percherons are grey or black with minimal white... no exceptions, the other being Stallions are no less than 16.3hh and mares 16.1hh - Pinto is probably 15.1 in shoes lol.

LouHarvey, I'm still deciding whether I should clip him out or not. I think he'd make a rather nice show cob ('cept cobs don't really exist in France either - saving the Norman Cob), but he has so many blemishes, I don't think it would be worth showing, even for fun.

I agree with others too, I don't think I've ever seen, or even heard of a registered APH or 'true' Paint in the Trois Frontieres region. I know someone who has a beautiful leopard appy, and I've seen a black tobi pony at the same school, but they are the only coloured horses I know of. Maybe I'll meet a few more at shows next year.

If he were entire or a mare I would consider getting him blood tested for colour, but as he is (most likely) a backyard bred gelding, and I love him just the way he is... I wont ;)

[elise]

From what I understand the paint (of which I own one in the US) is either a TB or a QH. Originally the paint breed registration was started because the QH (and I assume TB) registries wouldn't accept horses with excessive white. Recently however, the AQHA has started allowing QHs with excessive white (who would normally only be registered Paints) to register or double register as QHs. So I would say if you have a paint, you either have a QH/TB/or some X of those. Since my horse has quite a bit of both QH and TB I would just call him a paint (regardless of the registration). If he were a registered paint but had only TB or only QH lines I'd call him TB or QH. Seems like it's all just semmantics.

With the draft horse he couldn't be full paint in the US as that would imply only QH and TB lines. He could be part paint (part TB/QH). Since he's PerchXPinto, he very well could be PerchXColored Perch, but I'd guess he has something else in there than just a colored Perch.

The pintos at my yard are crosses of paint (mostly QH), arab, and saddlebred (heh don't ask).

[elise]

Oo and one other thing, I think all paints are Pintos but a Pinto isn't neccessarily a paint. (heh in the US ;) )

[coblover26]

:) I think he looks a big cobby, or maybe dales.

Probably wrong as i can't really tell the breed of a horse. Sorry:o

[love4horses]

After observing the pics really hard, I have come to my guess.

The only part of him that looks remotely close to being drafty would have to be his neck(thick for that heavy draft work), flanks/barrel(also very thick), and feathering on fetlocks.

As for that, I see more of a native type. His hip and shoulder areas are much lighter than that of a draft. I don't believe there is much if any Percheron. He also has a smallish, conny head.

That's all I can think of.

[horseygal90]

Oh, don't clip him... He looks so cute! I love big, furry things!

[No_Angel]

ive just googled norman cob and he looks to have a bit of that in him http://www.tiho-hannover.de/einricht/zucht/eaap/photos/1458_1l.jpg
and another really strange thing i saw was this http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.imeha.org/online/imageDB/285orson.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imeha.org/online/horsedivear/ViewResults5.html&h=240&w=350&sz=13&tbnid=zV59V64-d5MJ:&tbnh=79&tbnw=116&hl=en&start=13&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnorman%2Bcob%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN (it wont get the full picture up) but doesnt that just look like his cantering picture- even if it is a model horse:D ) apparently that is a warmbloodxnorman cob:D

[Pink Pony]

casey 76, What a beautiful horse you have. I have no idea of his breeding. He could have Percheron in him. What ever he is he is gorgeous!

Also, there is a UK Paint Horse Society! They have a web site. The American Paint is recognised over here as a breed apparently. I have also seen a few advertised for sale. Pintos are definately a colouring.

[chev]

Interesting link to American Paint history (http://www.apha.com/breed/history.html)

The American Paint has breed status, certainly in the US, where they breed for type and conformation and not just colour. There are registered American Paints being imported into the UK, although there is no UK Paint society in existence as yet. There are actually registered American Paints in the UK though - more than one standing at stud too. Not sure how their progeny are registered though; presumably with the colour societies here, rather than a Paint society.

Because they're still quite thin on the ground though it is unlikely that Pinto has American paint in there anywhere.

To be honest he looks like most 'traditional' coloured cobs; which have a variety of influences including draft and coloured gypsy blood.

It's a fallacy to say that colour crops up in 'most' cross breds; it doesn't. There are relatively few breeds that carry tobiano; the only UK native to carry tobiano colouring is the Shetland. New Forest ponies do occasionally carry the gene too but coloured stock is not eligible for registration with the society. Tobiano in Pinto's type of horse invariably originates in coloured cob stock; gypsy vanners and the like.

Tobiano will never be seen in any breed with a closed stud book that doesn't already allow registration of coloured stock (so you'll never see a tobiano Welsh, for example). It's seen more in Warmblood and sport horse breeding, and will continue to feature in cob and vanner breeding.

I reckon Pinto's got some gypsy ancestors somewhere... ;) :)

[Montana]

I wasn't arguing the fact that he was a coloured. My point was that he couldn't be a Paint cross as Paint's do not exist over here or Europe (where the horse is kept and most likely bred!).


Hi LouHarvey,

Sorry to disagree, but my horse is most definitely an American Paint cross, bred here in Wales. His sire was imported from the states, and I believe is still in the country, his registered name is Sonny Steele. I know of at least 1 other stud horse in the UK, and several progeny.

I do not have him registered, as already pointed out, there is no UK version
of the APHA, but that does not alter his breeding. The American Paint horse is recognised as a breed, with Quarterhorse or TB bloodlines, no matter where in the world they live:p

[Casey76]

Hey Montana, gorgeous horse :) Is he a Frame Overo?

[Montana]

Hi Casey76

Aw, thanks! I think he’s pretty gorgeous, but then I’m biased:D

He is an overo, but I’m not sure what a frame overo is? What would qualify him as that? Is it just the layout of the markings? I really should learn some more about all of this, I’m a huge coloured fan.

Pinto is stunning, whatever breed he is. :) I love the fact that he has spots as well as all of his other colouring – are you sure there’s no appaloosa in there:D

What is the definition of a tobiano? If I'd looked at Pinto, and had to guess, I would have said tobiano if anything, because I think of that as more of a 'pinto' colouring, rather than paint, if that makes sense:rolleyes: The colour is more 'blocks'. Would he also be tri-coloured, because of his mane and tail?

He looks a lot bigger than 15.1 by the way:p

[Laura+Phantom]

Just to back up,there are definately paint horses in the UK, I visited a stud in Devon recently. The foundation stock are imported from America but they are using them for AI breeding. They have a frame Overo stallion, double homozygous tobiano stallion, a deaf splash white, another splash white, a cremello quarterhorse, and others including Toveros and dilutes.

Can't help with your horse's breeding though!